How did Condi go from a brand new PhD to a Stanford professorship?

[Bozita]

IMHO, that kind of stuff just doesn't happen.

Am I missing something?

[gnofg]

1. affirmative action-n/t

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unblock]

2. that happens all the time

she didn't have tenure from the start, though, i'm sure.

[gnofg]

3. disagree

not a full professorship. You work to a full professorship.

[unblock]

8. she started off as an assistant profressor

she did not have tenure right away.

[loritooker]

4. Laura Flander's "Bushwomen" has a facinating chapter on Condi

[Jacobin]

5. Because of the program she is now against

affirmative action

[saigon68]

6. You are missing nothing

She is a TOKEN


Take it from there.

She also knows she is being used-- but as the dishonest criminal type she is, she is also a willing participant in the Bush Criminal Cabal's plans to strip mine amerika.

[DistantWind88]

12. Of course,

It's IMPOSSIBLE she got her PhD because of her academic achievements and intelligence; she ONLY got it because she's a token.

Gee, how racist (and sexist) does that sound?

[ProfessorGAC]

16. That's Not The Issue, Is It?

The issue was about the professorship, immediately after the granting of the Ph.D., not whether she achieved the Ph.D.

But, now that you mention it, let me say that i DO question the academic credentials that led to her Ph.D. Her thesis is a published work and had i been on the review committee, i would have had not looked upon it favorably. It's pedantic nonsense, apropos of nothing.

In addition, her later published works are those of a hack. She may have gotten the Ph.D. through perseverance. She did not get it by being a high level scholar and an expert in her field. She merely stayed in college long enough.

Listen to her now. She is not a deep thinker. She does not frame her ideas in sound ways. Answers to question reveal her to be very rehearsed, but a deep understanding in not manifest.

Call me a racist or sexist if you want. I'm basing my decisions on her work, her track record, and her public abilities. I find them wanting.
The Professor

[DistantWind88]

19. I don't agree with ANY of her stands as NSA

However:

1. You were not on her review committee so what you would have done is irrelevant.
2. Her review committee DID look upon her thesis "favorably."
3. She was made a professor at arguably the best University in the US.
4. When you are Stanford's Provost, then I'll give some credence to your "decisions."

Politically, she's a waste. Academically, I don't think calling her a "token" is appropriate.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. I Didn't Call Her Anything

I never said "token" so please don't ascribe things to me that i didn't say. I think you were talking about her being awarded her Ph.D., and the subject was about how she got an Asst. Prof. so quickly. So, you were talking hammers, when the subject was rabbits.

And, since i have actually read her published works, i am actually in more a position to rate her academic "accomplishments" more than most here. We can dislike her politics, but without actually reading her published works, it's impossible to know what her expertise really is. I happen to be in both camps, since i dislike her politics, and i have examined her work.

Lastly, i am a little confused as to why you attacked me! You put words in my mouth and then tell me my opinion is irrelevant. If that's the case, why come to a discussion board at all? Isn't everyone's opinion irrelevant? I don't get to have an opinion on her academic quality because i wasn't on the review committee? That's ridiculous. Of course i'm entitled to an opinion and it's no less relevant than anyone else's.
The Professor

[DistantWind88]

21. I apologize if you felt atatcked.

That was not my intent.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Thank You

I hope you also realize that my original point was that your post appeared to be talking about a completely different subject than the original post. That's why we disconnected.
The Professor

[DistantWind88]

24. I was taking offense

at someone calling an accomplished Black woman a token. I get tired of hearing that phrase used to describe any Black (or other minority) or woman who doesn't have the same political/religious/social beliefs as the name-caller. That's all I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. An Understandable Position, Indeed

The Professor

[Johonny]

45. Well

Ever been on a PhD review. I mean it's a rubber stamping agent most of the time. Your PhD defense is one of the easiest things you do in graduate school. If your advisor says their going to graduate you most professors on the committee will not disagree. My guess is her committee sans advisor may be read 15 % of the thesis.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. I Did Post Grad Work In Poli Sci At FSU

Interesting enough in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europes...


I didn't make it all the way to a doctorate...


I am not knocking Ms. Rice but she does not strike me a deep thinker in the mold of a Kissinger or Brezinski...


You read her PHD dissertation.... What was it about and where did you find it wanting....

[mhr]

44. I Have Noticed This To - She Speaks Like A Bureaucrat Not A Scholar

This observation stems from many years of college and many years working inside government.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EC]

7. I only got to watch the beginning of hearing

this morning before coming in to work...Biden, pissed me off, he started out good, but then said he was going to confirm her, even after all the errors he listed...I couldn't help thinking that people, (including myself, since I'm looking for a job with insurance), are going through a hell of a lot more questioning and accountability looking for just a job now...I've been interviewed for one job, 3 different times with different people for the same job, this is just a plain old receptionist job, and I have to go through hoops (like the round table interviews I used to go through for higher up positions)just for an ordinary job. I've noticed in the job listings that even dish washers have to jump hoops too, they have to get through an interview and then a security check and a physical(these things remind me of when there was slavery, they check your piss, your reflexes and look at your teeth, it's just demeaning) maybe I chose the wrong profession, looks like it's easier getting a job running the country than answering the telephone for a local business....



Affirmative action is the answer to your question, probably had a quota or entitlement policy to fill...she obviously had connections somewhere to network...

[WoodrowFan]

9. AA

She's a black woman so she got moved to the front of the line as a token. If she was qualified I don't really have a problem with it.


When I was in grad school I knew a married couple that went job hunting together. He had his PhD, she didn't (she was ABD), he had publications, she didn't, they both had a speciality in the same area and close to identical teaching experience (he had a bit more). She got a job and he didn't becuase the school wanted to show that they were hiring women.

[HamdenRice]

57. Coming from a fan of Woodrow Wilson ...

the president who thought Birth of a Nation was a great film, we'll take your comments, on whether Rice is merely a black token, for what they are worth.

[HamdenRice]

10. Racism rears its ugle head AGAIN on DU

While I agree that Condi is a murderous incompetent as National Security Advisor, you've got to be either very racist or joking if you think that the reason she rose so fast through the ranks at Stanford is soley or mostly affirmative action.

Rice was a very productive and accomplished scholar of the Soviet system and Eastern Europe with White House experience -- a typical rising star in academia, whether black or white, male or female. Her academic skills have not translated into wisdom as NSA, but to attribute her academic success to aa is just plain stupid, ill-informed and racist.

[Used and Abused]

11. I'm late, but had to agree with you. 100%

Condi Rice has been a failure as NSA; however, who the heck can question the fact that Condi Rice is a gifted woman who has earned every position fair and square (prior to being nominated as SoS that is)? Meanwhile, the Dems have yet to show the same amount of racial diversity that the Republicans have when it comes to high leadership positions. It's sad, but let me guess--there's nobody "qualified" enough. Yawn. We need to work on this ASAP.

[dsc]

13. Clinton had a black party chair

more blacks in his cabinet than any other president, women AG and Sec or State. I think he did at least as well as Bush is doing on this score.

[July]

15. Why can't we question her?

And how do you know that she has "earned every position fair and square"?

Racial diversity that involves simply throwing minorities, qualified or not, into top jobs is not much of an accomplishment. There are plenty of talented people out there in every slice of society, but Bush keeps choosing people of questionable ability and then bragging about the diversity of his team.

It sounds like a winger argument when you suggest that the Democrats believe there are no "qualified" minorities for high leadership positions.

[July]

14. I don't know what got Condi her professorship, but

you seem to know a lot about her. Please tell us what "a very productive and accomplished scholar of the Soviet system and Eastern Europe with White House experience" means. Did she work in the WH before becoming a professor? Did she publish many books and articles? Was she praised by her academic peers (I seem to remember at least one article that suggested they were not very impressed with her)?

I'm familiar with both the academic world the corporate world, and I have to say that race and sex do sometimes come into play in decision-making in those settings. Not always or even usually, but sometimes. Whether or not that was the case with Condi, I can't say. But it's not "stupid, ill-informed, and racist" to speculate that a fairly incompetent bureaucrat rose because of reasons other than her supposed brilliance.

In fact, the Bush administration employs the (to me) "racist" tactic of finding minorities who are not especially qualified for anything but yessing Bush policies (Condi, Gonzales) as a means of bulletproofing their ideological team. As soon as the minority is criticized fairly for poor qualifications, the Bush gang rips out the "racist" card. They've also done something like this with at least one Catholic (I've forgotten who it is), claiming opposition to him (her?) was bigotry against that candidate's religion. To me this is a sorry tactic that hurts minorities in the end. It is tokenism that presents the benighted with a non-threatening minority who isn't really up to the job.

[kwassa]

23. I don't think that Rice is incompetent in her job, or unqualified.

I think her world view is incorrect, which is also true of Bush and virtually all his neo-con foreign policy people. The foreign policy ideas they came in with at the beginnning of Bush administration were ludicrous, such as scrapping the ABM treaty, and pouring money into new missle defense system.

Here is some background on her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Ricebrief excerpts:

Education

After studying piano at an Aspen music camp, Rice enrolled and at 15, began attending classes at the University of Denver with the goal of becoming a concert pianist. Her plans changed when she attended a course on international politics taught by Josef Korbel, the father of former Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, that sparked her interest in the Soviet Union and international relations, leading her to call Korbel "one of the most central figures in my life" <3> (http://www.rider.edu/phanc/Phanc/JoKorbel.htm).

At 19, Rice earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974. In 1975, she obtained her master's degree from the University of Notre Dame, and in 1981 she received her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver. In addition to English, she speaks Russian, French, and Spanish.

Academic career

At Stanford University, Rice is a tenured Professor of Political Science, Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. From 1993 to July 1, 1999 she served as the Stanford Provost--serving as chief budget and academic officer of the university. In June 2003, Rice delivered the commencement address at Stanford.

Rice is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004.

Political Career (the first Bush administration)

From 1989 through March 1991 (the period of the fall of Berlin wall and the final days of the Soviet Union), she served in the George H. W. Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In this function, Condoleezza Rice was part of developing the strategy of President Bush and Secretary of State James Baker in favor of German reunification. She so impressed President Bush that he introduced her to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev as the one who "tells me everything I know about the Soviet Union."<4>

(more at this site)

[July]

29. I don't know if she's qualified, despite her background.

I know too many academics who are boobs with nice-looking C.V.s. Certainly, she has some native intelligence, as do many other people with no degrees.

And I do think she is incompetent. She's ignored things she was charged with paying attention to (national security), while spending a great deal of time telling lies for Bush on the Sunday talk circuit. Her "expertise" (I'll wait for Sovietologists to weigh in on this) in Soviet studies may have contributed to her PNAC world view, which is, IMO, part of the evidence of her incompetence. That world-view possibly justified in her mind the Iraq war and PNAC's other aims -- a gross misreading that led to ill-advised decisions for which we will be paying for years to come (a.k.a. in my world: "incompetence").

[kwassa]

30. I find your comments borderline racist

July:
"Certainly, she has some native intelligence, as do many other people with no degrees."

This one specifically. A professional black woman can't possibly be well-educated and competent, can she?

I also think you are no judge of exactly what her job is; the talk shows are part of the job, the public face of that job.

Now, seeing her particular world view as incompetence is valid, in my opinion, but it also invalidates all far right foreign policy ideas, and is in no way unique to Ms. Rice, but characteristic of all Bush's people and Bush himself.

And what does the acronym PNAC stand for?

[July]

32. Are you kidding me?

It's YOUR statement that "a professional black woman can't possibly be well-educated and competent." That's something I never said or would say. This particular black woman, in my opinion, is well-educated and incompetent. And the fact that she is black is not an element of my statement about her intelligence.

I may be "no judge of exactly what her job is" -- are you a judge of that? Since Condi works for me as well as you, and since I follow the news coverage of her, I reserve the right to opine about how well she does her job. And by the way, I give her performance of "the public face of her job" an F, too. She's not very convincing, and she doesn't lie well.

Her world view informs her incompetence and is part of it. What is unique to Rice is the way she has done (or failed to do) her own job. I find her severely lacking in that department. I also deplore the world view she shares with the Bush gang.

If you are unfamiliar with PNAC, I suggest, if I may, that you are "no judge" of Bush administration officials. Project for a New American Century. Look it up.

Defend Condi all you want. Throw "racist" around with a little care.

[kwassa]

37. No, I'm not kidding you

and I think YOU should speak with more care

you said:
"I know too many academics who are boobs with nice-looking C.V.s. Certainly, she has some native intelligence, as do many other people with no degrees."

The implication is that she may have native intelligence, but she is probably a boob with a C.V., too.

then you say:
"This particular black woman, in my opinion, is well-educated and incompetent. And the fact that she is black is not an element of my statement about her intelligence."

You've said nothing previous to say that she might be well-educated, and in fact implied otherwise in the first quote. And the fact that she is black is an element, because the comment you made is typical of the types of comments used to disparage black professionals.

Fix your own contradictions.

[July]

50. Sorry, no sale. Talking about academics, not blacks.

But go ahead and read my mind if it's fun for you.

[kwassa]

55. I still say borderline racist

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kk897]

39. Condi's "incompetence"

You're assuming, of course, that she isn't *intentionally* making "mistakes".

At least what's published about her accomplishments would indicate that she's brilliant, both left- and right-brained brilliant (the piano aptitude completely surprised me, since I know little about the woman's personality). While the quality of her own scholarship seems to be somewhat debatable, you can't deny that few people earn a Bachelor's by 19 and a Master's a year later. I wonder what took her so long to finish her PhD...

But anyway, perhaps what looks like incompetence to some is merely the culmination of another agenda entirely.

Same could be said for W.

I've had a problem over the last four years, trying to decide whether Mr. Bush is stupid or evil or E-vile (bwa ha ha!). Or maybe all three! Now I'll have to think more about Condi, who up to now I've just seen as another "yes man" with a big ol' crush on W.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kwassa]

56. The racism is in the assumption that her success is due to AA

She is not a stupid person, she is very accomplished person, yet the theme of this thread is that she is NOT really accomplished, that her success could only be due to Affirmative Action, not her own hard work and ability.

I find that assumption racist, because it is racist.

Sorry if you find that upsetting, but it is an assumption that black professionals have to deal with every working day of their life.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

18. Sometimes a femme's worst enemy is another femme.

[notadmblnd]

27. you can bet your butt we are...

and I don't necessiarily think it's a bad thing. Perhaps if men were capable of being direct and to the point with each other, there would be less problems in the world.

[femme.democratique]

36. I agree. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of political correctness

and I like to lay things out on the table, calling it like I see it. My specific comment about Condi was meant to be humorous, though I don't doubt there is some truth to this. She is not nearly as talented as people make her out to be. She's had problems all along the course of her career. Her ineptitude in her jobs in the administration is just another in a long line of things.

[kwassa]

40. Got any facts to back up this assertion?

"She's had problems all along the course of her career. Her ineptitude in her jobs in the administration is just another in a long line of things."

[femme.democratique]

52. Sure, let me just dig thru all of her personnel records that I have....

....why the strong need to defend Condi? And don't give me the usual bullshit.

[kwassa]

54. I simply ask for a fair critique, and you are not giving it

I've read many pieces about Condi, and never heard the assertion you made, that's why.

Got anything to back it up? I'm genuinely curious.

[Lucille]

26. Rice herself has said she benefited from affirmative action

Both she and Powell have backed AA, although Rice supported her "husband" in University of Michigan case.

from CNN:

Rice said she had benefited from affirmative action during her career at Stanford University.

"I think they saw a person that they thought had potential, and yes, I think they were looking to diversify the faculty," she said.

"I think there's nothing wrong with that in the United States," Rice said. "It does not mean that one has to go to people of lower quality. Race is a factor in our society."

In a Friday interview with the American Urban Radio Network, Rice said she agreed that affirmative action is needed "if it does not lead to quotas."

[Boosterman]

31. Actually if you read the article

it sounds like the reporter concluded that. Nothing in her remarks leads me to believe she actually said that she benefited from AA. We know Bush didnt. Oh wait wrong AA.

[Lucille]

35. Actually, I did read the article

I think the reporter says pretty unequivocally what she said, although with today's reporting being what it is, I can understand your skepticism.

However, a couple of days ago, the LAT had an extended article on this subject, which included reference to a 1998 interview in which Rice clearly stated that she benefited from AA. The LAT did say that she has a "nuanced" view on AA. Put in Kerry-bashing terms, she's a flip-flopper.

As provost, Rice took a nuanced position on affirmative action, saying she supported special treatment at the time of hiring but not when it came to granting tenure, with its promise of prestige, higher pay and guaranteed job security. Race was a factor to weigh in creating campus diversity, she suggested, but not evaluating job performance.

"I am myself a beneficiary of a Stanford strategy that took affirmative action seriously, that took a risk in taking a young PhD from the University of Denver," Rice said during a contentious May 1998 meeting of the Faculty Senate, referring to her initial hiring.

Asked at that time why she was departing from the practice of applying affirmative action to tenure decisions, Rice responded, "I'm the chief academic officer now" and firmly restated her position.

[Boosterman]

41. Now that I have no problem with whatsoever

Thats an excellent find that supports some points.

[theboss]

28. This is an ugly thread

Do I like Condi Rice's worldview? No. Do I want her as Secretary of State? No.

But from what I can tell there is no reason to criticize her credentials or career in academia. The only basis I can see is that the fact that she is a black woman who rose quickly through a prestigious university system calls everything she does into question. I don't think we would be doing the same for Ruth Simmons.

[bobweaver]

34. Ass-kissing moves mountains

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. We Are Conflating A Lot Of Different Issues Here

Is Condi smart enough to be Sec Of State?


Yes, look at some of her predecessors......


Does Condi Rice have above intelligence?


Yes, look at her academic and professional accomplishments.....


Is it possible that Condi Rice benefitted from her minority status as an African woman?


Possibly... As someone who did post grad work and had to assemble a committe of professors to oversee my work I would be shocked if they failed to display the liberal instinct to help a minority.. But Ms. Rice had to have the intelligence to get into that position... Ditto for her position at Stanford. I can remember having discussion in the mid 80's why there were no African American professors at FSU in the Poli Sci department......


Has Ms. Rice exhibited wise judgement as NSA?

IMHO, no...

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Actually, speaking as a former academic, I know it does happen

One of my housemates, a new Ph.D., got offers from both Stanford and Northwestern. She chose Northwestern because the people seemed more compatible.

There's a real caste system in academia, and it's easy to move down the ladder, but not so easy to move up. If you don't get hired at a prestigious university right out of graduate school, it is unlikely that you ever will, not unless you become the world's greatest expert in your field.

I know one person who was able to move up, a University of Minnesota professor who was a rapidly rising expert in his field and who had written his dissertation under another household name (household name if you were in that field). He got a job at Harvard when the previous expert in that field retired.

The downside of being hired at an Ivy or Ivy-equivalent is that it's hard to earn tenure, well nigh impossible, in fact, so you spend seven years as relatively cheap labor for the institution. Yale grad students mostly did NOT want to be hired by Yale, because they knew that they'd most likely be out in the cold after a few years, no matter how much they published or how well they taught. Then they'd be replaced by another new Ph.D.

Most refugees from the Ivy League and similar schools move down to the next tier and eventually earn tenure there. However, in no sense are smaller, less prestigious schools "farm teams" for the Ivy League.

I think I'm answering the question that Bozita actually asked. Yes, people do get hired to prestigious universities right out of graduate school. No, they do not have to work their way up through less prestigious institutions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. University Of Denver To Stanford Is A Big Leap....

I'll bet if you looked at the Poli Sci Dept at Stanford it would be filled with a lot of Harvard, Yale, and MIT types....


I did post grad work at FSU which is on par academically with the University Of Denver and none of my fellow grad students were thinking about teaching at Ivy League institutions or the equivalent...


If we were smart enough to teach at an Ivy League school we would have had GREs and GPAs high enough for us to go to Ivy League schools...

That being said I don't question Ms. Rice's intelligence.... I question her wisdom and judgement...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. You're right about that

The Ivies are terribly snobbish about anyone who didn't go to another Ivy League school.

[Redleg]

59. Exactly right.

EOm

[Redleg]

58. She may have graduated from a prestigious university.

The elite schools like to hire the newly-minted Ph.D.s of other elite schools. I know this because I am a Ph.D. and professor and have seen how the system works. It is a type of affirmative action for Ivy League types.