Calling Erin Brockevich !

[vetwife]

Check this article out and then ask any vet what Dioxin is?
It's Agent Orange and God only knows how many of us us here in West Ga. have been exposed !

The Times Georgian
Consultant called in for dioxin study


By Spencer Crawford
The Carroll County Board of Health has agreed to contract with an outside consultant who will study a possible relationship between health effects experienced by residents near the Southwire plant and its dioxin release.
Also at its meeting Wednesday, the Board of Health adopted the same pricing plan for flu vaccines this year as was in place last year.




Dioxin, a known carcinogen in certain quantities, is a chemical byproduct of the copper-smelting process. From 1971 to 2000, Southwire operated a plant that produced emissions that some have claimed reached a high level.

[patdem]

1. You forgot the link, vetwife...the link please...thanks!

:hi:

[vetwife]

6. Sorry Patdem..its the second article on the link ...

[Solly Mack]

2. Oman, that's bad

Hiya vetwife!

I read this and was thankful I only spent 2 days in Villa Rica after my birth. Course, I still have relatives in Carroll County. I'll hafta talk with them about this and see how they are doing.

[vetwife]

4. Thanks...here is one link dated August 12..

http://www.times-georgian.com/home/?CurrentNewspaper=1&CurrentNewsDay=1014


It may be found in back issues but there have been more follow ups.......
This is terrible !
What with this and the 80 mile radius of Anniston and the destruction of Chemicals and WMD's...at Ft. McClellan., not sure we aren' all in this area in for some big health problems. Anniston just won a big lawsuit over Ft. McClellan. Will try to find the link on that one as well !

[Solly Mack]

7. Knew about Anniston

My husband trained at McClellan and I was constantly worried about him. He was there the last year they held the academy at McClellan.

I even brought a face mask to his graduation. He wouldn't let me wear it.

[DrWeird]

3. Dioxin isn't just one chemical.

It's a class of compounds with a variety of uses and degrees of toxicity, the latter of which has arosed a great deal of controversy.

I'd recommend anybody who's interested in the topic to do quite a bit of reading on the issue.

[vetwife]

5. I went clear to DC and talked to the Author of the studies

on Agent Orange and found out that it is one of the most lethal toxins known to man. He writes the Newsletters for the VA on Enviromental Toxins. His name is Don Rosenblum.

[DrWeird]

11. Then you're being seriously misinformed.

For starters, dioxin is not a toxin. That may just be typo on your part.

Dioxins are indeed toxic chemicals, but they are not even remotely the most toxic of chemicals. Yuchenko (sorry, probably got that name wrong) received tremendous doses of dioxin and he's still standing, many other chemicals would have him dead in seconds at that dose. Albeit, he'll probably die eventually of cancer or liver failure eventually do to his poisoning.

Now it's probably true that dioxins are some of the most persistent and prolific of industrial pollutants. Perhaps that's the source of a miscommunication.

[anarchy1999]

8. So good to see you back. What's new with our gov't?

N/T

[vetwife]

9. LOL Still divided as far as I can tell !

[KT2000]

10. It is everywhere!

Some things to remember:
(1) environmental laws are laws to protect health
(2) genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger
(3) too many people in this country are sick from pollutants

Before it closed, I lived downstream from a paper mill. Their emissions were tested and measured for certain chemicals but never dioxin. Dioxin was known to come from the stacks and dumped all over the place but dioxin was not an emission that was monitored or tested for. I think that is standard. The pulp and paper industry was able to forestall compensation for Agent Orange vets, public safety laws and monitoring.

William Ruckleshause, when he headed the EPA had to recuse himself from deliberations concerning dioxin because he had previously been head of Weyerhauser. Weyerhauser sprayed tons of herbicides over their forests in Washington state - herbicides they knew contained dioxin.

Vetwife - health department and CDC studies ALWAYS show that there is no connection between environmental pollutants and illnesses. If you are going to be part of something about this - do not waste your time trusting these people to do proper testing - get your own experts NOW not later.

[vetwife]

12. High ..High vet population and this is why I am calling Erin !

Its not like they weren't exposed enough in Nam. Good grief !
Talked to a lady yesterday and she told me the company made trouble for a doctor who tried to do something a couple of years ago ! BIG TROUBLE !

[KT2000]

23. Yes - you are walking into a

scripted situation. Doctors who support the sick will have their careers ruined - they know that so you won't find much help there. Universities lose funding if they support the sick, and on and on.
Money buys a lot in these disputes.

There are many many people who have fought this battle - please try to connect with them so you can make good contacts that can help you wage an effective fight.

Pollutants have been making people sick with full complicity of the medical community and scientists too for a long time. But there are honest people who can give you worthwhile advice and testimony.

[vetwife]

13. Uh Dr. Wierd..Check this article out !

ARMY EXPERIMENTS WITH DEADLY DEFOLIANTS

The Army continued to experiment with 2,4-D during the 1950s and late in the decade found a potent combination of chemicals which quickly found its way into the Army's chemical arsenal.

Army scientists found that by mixing 2,4-D and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T) and spraying it on plants, there would be an almost immediate negative effect on the foliage. What they didn't realize, or chose to ignore, was that 2,4,5-T contained dioxin, a useless by-product of herbicide production. It would be twenty more years until concern was raised about dioxin, a chemical the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) would later call "one of the most perplexing and potentially dangerous" known to man.

[DrWeird]

14. Yes, what of it?

nt

[vetwife]

15. These folks seem to think something of it ..hmmmm

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/factsheets/dioxin.htm

[DrWeird]

17. Tell me something I don't know.

That link pretty much sums up everything I've said.

Including, abstractly, that part about how people who wish to know more about dioxins should do some reading.

[anarchy1999]

19. We used the shit on our farms, DrWeird. I know about it.

My grandfather is dead, and he died because of this shit. I'll stop now, I started to say something I'd regret.

My grandfather and my dad both new how poisonous this chemical was. My father actually used it to kill a neighbor's tree.

Get over yourself. If it is so harmful to natural habitats, what in God's name makes you think it won't harm you?

[DrWeird]

22. Well, for one thing, I'm a chemist.

I work regularly with chemicals that make dioxins look like apple juice.

[anarchy1999]

24. Ahhh, apple juice. I just think maybe you've shown yourself.

You just came out of the closet, didn't you, DrWeird?

[DrWeird]

25. Is there something the matter with being a chemist?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

30. I'm a stupid chemist, am I? Well, I am only a doctoral candidate.

I mean, I've still got to finish up my thesis. I'm working a the total synthesis of a cancer drug and an AIDS drug. I know, pretty silly stuff really. And before grad school I interned as an environmental analytical chemist, oh, the vanity of youth.

So what do you do for a living?

Anywho, I sure do want to be an intelligent chemist. Would you please be so kind as to point out the chemistry errors I've made, so as I won't make them again?

[vetwife]

32. This is Don Rosenblum and the author for VA headquarters

environmental toxins ....This is what I was doing in Washington..finding out what I could about Agent orange, Dioxin, Radiation, etc. I was trying to find out. I was informed of much of what the articles are saying.

I have not said you did not know your trade. I just said I do try and stay informed.

Dow chemical knew it was dangerous..they paid out a huge amount in 1994 in a class action lawsuit to Nam vets who were exposed to the stuff .
Don Rosenblum works for the VA headquarters inWashington D.C. He has written three books regarding the subject of dioxins and agent orange. He is the author of newletters that are placed in VA medical centers all over the world and has testified before the sub committee on Captiol Hill. He has workd for the VA for over 15 years. He keeps the registry of exposure to toxic chemicals. He might know a thing or two as well.

[DrWeird]

34. I've never met Dr. Rosenblum...

but if he's telling you this:

"it is one of the most lethal toxins known to man"

then he's way off.

But like I said, there's probably a lot of miscommunication.

[Heddi]

53. No, you did say he didn't know his trade

You called him specifically a "stupid chemist". That's pretty blatantly stating that he doesn't know his trade.

[vetwife]

64. Heddi..I never said that..I don't call names....

I post links

[Heddi]

67. Yes, you did say that

and the post where you called him a stupid chemist has now been deleted. You said something along the lines of "There's nothing wrong with being a chemist, but being a STUPID CHEMIST is frightening"

Your words. Your..DELETED..words......

[DrWeird]

70. Heddi...

I'm pretty sure that was Anarchy1999.

Unless you're suggesting some sockpuppetry...

[Heddi]

73. he pointed it out below

I know whoever said it had a flag avatar, and I was dreadfully wrong in which poster it was.

[anarchy1999]

69. Heddi, it was me that called DrWeird a "stupid chemist". Not VetWife.

Please give her some space.

[Heddi]

71. Oh. Well, my apologies to Vetwife

but I am obviously correct that he was called a stupid chemist. I think the flag avatars you both have got me confused.

mea culpa.

now mea gulpa some beer....

[anarchy1999]

38. Okay, a cancer drug and an AIDS drug. Pretty powerful, how much

time have you spent in Africa?

Silly stuff, not really, you are.

"Vanity of youth", "What do you do for a living"? You are arrogant beyond belief.

How old are you? I'm 47 and I don't have to work anymore. In addition my husband and I have spent thousands this last year to make a change, how many dollars have you spent?

[DrWeird]

43. Oh, I'm pretty miserly.

I spend my big grad student stipend driving around in my Jaguar convertible, running over cats and orphan children, only slowing to snatch the candy from their hand.

Oh, I didn't know you don't have to work anymore. Than I humbly apologize for asking you to waste your precious time by correcting my multitudinous chemistry errors.

[Heddi]

52. ha ha ha

She calls you a stupid chemist because you have a difference of opinion ha ha ha ha ha

Yeah. they routinely let in people who haven't passed CHem101 into Doctoral programs.

Sheesh.

you go, DrWeird :)

[DrWeird]

55. Thanks.

I appreciate that.

Honest.

Although I'm not sure where the "difference of opinion is" since all I've done is state few facts and corrected a few mistakes.

[Heddi]

58. Maybe I shouldn't have said "Diff of Opinion"

you're right. You were correcting mistakes and clarifying and stating facts.

I feel like reading this thread is equivalent to a blind man arguing over the colour of the noon-day sky.......

Some people just don't like pesky facts to get in the way of their hysteria!

Dihydrogen Oxide! aaah! One drop in your lungs and you're DEAD!!! One drop in your veins (IV-style) and you're dead!

WE MUST BAN DIHYDROGEN OXIDE! Think of the children for God's sake :laughs:

[anarchy1999]

62. Always can count on you, Heddi to weigh in.

n/t

[Heddi]

65. Wow. Imagine that. Someone posting on a Message Board!

Someone call the press :eyes:

I didn't realize this conversation was by invitation only. You really oughta talk to Skinner about, you know, letting other DU'ers know which threads they can and can't participate in

[vetwife]

26. I just know that Dioxin is really dangerous and see vets die

all the time from exposure to Agent orange which wasproduced by DoW Chemical and used as a defoliage tactic in Vietnam. I spoke with Maude DeVictor who also paid a visit to the Veterans Administration after putting the dioxin and agent orange together. I called her after seeing a movie whereas she worked as a VA nurse and put the two and two together. I do know there were other agents, such as agent blue and white but agent orange was the worst of the bunch
that the veterans were exposed to.

I have studied and consulted and not a chemist, but I am not meaning to be disrespectful to you or your work but I am not a fireman either and I know darn well fire is HOT and will KILL A PERSON.

I don't want this stuff around my friends, neighbors and kids. My husband already lives with the results of exposure. So do too many other veterans of the Vietnam war.

[DrWeird]

28. Well then I'd say...

you should be learning as much about dioxins as you can.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

37. See, this is why I didn't like the movie "Erin Brokovitch"

It was a disservice to the real Erin Brokovitch. She didn't win her case by having a wild romance with her hunk of a neighbor, or by going around telling people to take a flying leap. What she did was- actually research the matter, she thoroughly did her homework, she talked to impartial chemists, in short she learned what she was talking about.

What she DIDN'T do, God bless her, was get a cursory understanding of the subject and then run off half-cocked, spouting of wild exaggerations, half truths, and major technical errors. Because that doesn't help anybody.

[anarchy1999]

16. Warning to Dr. Weird, don't fight with VetWife.

You will lose, and you will lose big time. Just sign out now and save yourself lots of pain.

[DrWeird]

18. We'll see.

nt

[anarchy1999]

21. No, you will see.

n/t

[coreystone]

20. That's a "right on for Vets", vetwife doesn't tolerate deception of ...

how our honorable veterans have been maimed by our own chemical atrocities!

[JanMichael]

82. I have only one thing to say about your post: "Ignored" argued it.

Thus because of that you must be right. The "ignored" are asswipes.

"ignored" is usually tombstoned for me...

[DrWeird]

84. Yeah, your wife put me on ignore.

Back during that flamefest about me and and my wife's miscarriage.

Speaking of asswipes...

[JanMichael]

90. Apparently some "ignored" thing replied to me!

Whoopie! I have no idea or care what you said!

Plus: I already put you on "shut the fuck up" days ago so, well, fuck off:-)

[DrWeird]

91. Well, your wife did.

Maybe you should check that list after you let her use your account.

Or maybe she should just stay the fuck off.

[JanMichael]

93. It did it AGAIN!!!!!

A "person" that's speaking NOTHING keeps replying!

Inconcievable...Nah, expected.

Go to WalMart and grab a big bag of "Fuck Off"!

[DrWeird]

108. Indeed. And I'm not taking that personally.

I'm hoping curiousity would win the best of you.

I mean, it would be a shame if I didn't get a chance to tell you what a disgusting excuse for a human being Stephanie is. I mean, to your face. Nothing personal.

[KT2000]

31. A tip I got years ago re: scientists

Vetwife I know you are experienced in activism but I did want to pass along some advice i got from a scientist once.
This man knew that along the way (of an issue I was working on) we would come across scientists who would attempt to put us off track.

He said that they will use jargon to confuse you and the issue - and they would assume a most arrogant attitude with the intent of making the non-scientist feel inferior. He said to watch out and not fall for that behaviour. At their core - these issues are common sense and to keep that focus.

(People are paid to defuse such concerns as yours before they can make it to the courts. Gee - you might even run into such confederates on DU?!?!)


The man who gave me the advice was a scientist working at the CDC. He was sickened by what he saw being done to people and quit to work with citizens harmed by pollution.

[anarchy1999]

33. Thank you for weighing in. This is what we fight every day.

So your advice is "don't fight", you will lose. Right?

[KT2000]

39. No - FIGHT!

I was talking about people who will try to tell Vetwife that she doesn't know what she is talking about - because they (as scientists) are smarter than she is. That is an ego trip that some scientists like to pull, for what reason I don't know.

The advice was to ignore such people and fight for the ones who are sick. There are honest scientists who are actually helping people such as Vetwife with these issues. Getting in contact with them is the best strategy.

There is a poster on this thread who is trying to throw cold water on her efforts and that pisses me off. She is doing good work and she needs support - not assinine behaviour.

[vetwife]

42. Thanks Kt...I just am concerned about this Dioxin here and

I would like to add, if it were not that dangerous, why would Environmental Experts be called into this small town. I am not what you call a tree hugger but I am surely afraid of what this herbicide can do and what it has done. I know there are other chemicals in Agent Orange but more than once source has told me that Dioxin was the worst of the components. I have been informed it was the main ingredient in that herbicide.

[DrWeird]

44. Now, who says it isn't dangerous?

As for Agent Orange, if you'll read your links you'll see that TCDD was not the active ingredient in that defoliant, but a by-product of its production.

A small, but significant point.

[vetwife]

46. But here it says...

The human health effects of dioxins, which are considered among the most toxic chemicals known, got much more attention, especially regarding the 3 million U.S. soldiers who served in Vietnam. According to the Committee to Review the Health Effects in Vietnam Veterans of Exposure to Herbicides of the U.S. Institute of Medicine, there is strong evidence that dioxin causes the skin disease chloracne (defined), and three cancers: soft-tissue sarcoma, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and Hodgkin's disease.

The committee also found suggestive links with respiratory cancer, prostate cancer, and multiple myeloma, plus an elevated risk of spina bifida (defined) among veterans' kids.




Dioxin comes in 75 flavors, each with a unique chemical structure and toxicity. Scientists sum up exposure to the many forms with an imperfect but necessary simplification called the Dioxin Toxic Equivalent (TEQ).



Cancer is just one of many possible health effects. Other problems attributed to dioxin include immune disorders, lowered sperm counts, diabetes, reproductive and developmental damage, and endocrine disruption.


http://whyfiles.org/025chem_weap/5.html

[DrWeird]

48. Yeah, I don't understand where you're going with that.

Yes, like I've said all along, dioxins in high doses obviously cause harmful effects.

[vetwife]

72. Dr. Wierd? The orginal post was concern for the community

In your opinion is there nothing to be concerned about? I am asking that in all honesty. I too am not a chemist. I am within 5 miles of that plant though. This little town does not get upset over environmental issues very often. Something must be up with this.

[DrWeird]

78. I don't know enough information about this specific case.

But I take the environment very seriously. I also take scientific literacy very seriously, which is why I replied to the OP, as there were several glaring errors.

[vetwife]

36. I can believe that..they have listed the illnesses at the VA but

they still don't want to compensate for the exposure. NOT WITHOUT A HUGHE HUGE FIGHT ! I have had doctors tell me, they know being burned from the inside out was the cause of the cancer,and many other diseases... admission and proving was next to impossible.

If you were in Vietnam between 1965 and 1975, exposure to this chemical is presumptive exposure according to Article 38 of the VA C&P laws, but I don't know any who have received compensation for exposure to it. They receive comp for illness but have never seen it documemented by the Veterans Administration as the CAUSE. Even though there is a register in DC with exposed vets, even though civilian docs have said this is caused by AO. Presidents have said it but try and get a compensation for it...Another story alltogether.

[coreystone]

35. Relevant to "apple juice" and pesticides, lest us not forget ...

"AGENT ORANGE"!

Why don't you help us out and determine with you experise in "chemical research" about the residual harm these little guys can do....please! Links would be appreciated!

List of footnoted pesticides: 1 aldicarb, 2 azinphos methyl, 3 atrazine, 4 benomyl, 5 captan, 6 carbaryl, 7 carbendazim, 8 chloropyrifos, 9 cypermethrin, 10 DDT, 11 deltametrin, 12 dimethoate, 13 dinocap, 14 the ‘drins’ (aldrin, dieldrin and endrin), 15 diazinon, 16 endosulfan, 17 heptachlor, 18 gamma-HCH, 19 methyl parathion, 20 paraquat, 21 zineb."

Link: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=apples++pesticides&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Db046decefcd5ee03%26clickedItemRank%3D13%26userQuery%3Dapples%2B%2Bpesticides%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.newint.org%252Fissue323%252Fapple.htm%26invocationType%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DNSCPNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newint.org%2Fissue323%2Fapple.htm

Then, of course there's "Agent Orange"!

[anarchy1999]

40. Hey DrWeird, what is your insight on DU?

As in Depleted Uranium? Can't wait to hear what you have to say. You work for the government, don't you?

[DrWeird]

45. It's a highly toxic metal, chemically.

Very low threat of radiation, from what I understand. I'm not a lanthanide chemist, I should point that out. As for the problems of it being used in Iraq, which is why I'm assuming you've asked, as far as I know that's a very open question. I myself haven't read much on the topic in scientific journals, alhtough I'm willing to bet it we be quite the subject of heated debate. What I am sure of, however, is that rampant chemophobia, hysteria, and pseudoscience won't do anything to help the situation.

No, I don't work directly for the government, although I am being funded by the NIH.

[vetwife]

50. I never mentioned Iraq...but I would like to ask

what made the jungle in Vietnam look as though it went from jungle to a burned up forest..?

[DrWeird]

54. did you read your own information?

What defoliated the jungles of Vietnam was 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid, and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid. Both defolients. TCDD, the dioxin, was a by-product of the production of those defoliants.

If I may remark, you may be confounding the problem under the phony assumption that:

defoliants = harmful to plants = harmful to humans = TCDD is bad and harmful to humans because it's in a defoliant.

[coreystone]

51. Agent Orange is somewhat unique to Viet Nam......

You would do the membership of DU, if you would connect the dots and ascertain the relationship with the dioxins that vetwife speaks of and "Agent Orange"! Sorry! I don't mean to step on youth!

[KT2000]

74. Chemophobia, Hysteria & pseudoscience

are terms coined by industry to disregard the concerns of people exposed to dangerous chemicals and pollutants. The government and corporate world are entitled to dump upon the citizenry thousand of chemicals. It is up to the citizens to prove beyond a doubt that those chemicals are causing harm. When they do attempt to do this, names such as those you used, are employed to denigrate the people in their efforts.

One would think it more fair to put the burden of proof on those forcing exposures that the chemicals are indeed safe for all - fetuses, children, the sick and the elderly. But that is not the case. They only have to conduct limited research that is either accepted or not by the regulating agency, i.e., EPA. As you are aware, health studies do not usually examine immune, nervous system and endocrine effects. As you are also probably aware, thousands of toxic chemicals were grandfathered in on the basis of fraudulent research.

You may also find yourself using the term "junk science" at some point. This is a term made up by a member of the RW Manhattan Institute when they took on the issue of allowable evidence in toxic tort cases (the Frye test).

In the issue of harmful exposures, it is not a level playing field. Corporations and governments are the ones causing the exposures. They have all the money and control the research and the reglulators. People know when too many of their co-workers, neighbors and family members are sick. They know what has gone on in their communities and can put two and two together.
ex., mound of manufacturing refuse pile up; midnight dumping from stacks; trucking of hazardous waste to out of the way fields etc.

But how do they fund the research that proves their point? How do they pay for the tests and the lawyers? How do they pay their bills too? It is a huge uphill fight.

Rather than call the citizens names that imply ignorance, wouldn't it be more factual to admit that health research is limited, that the population is really serving in an uncontrolled human experiment, that money guides decisions more than safety and every effort will be employed by polluting corporations and government, to destroy those who object to being polluted upon.

[anarchy1999]

98. No surprise. I knew it.

NIH. Ever see the silly little film, "The Secret of NIMH? Go figure.

[DrWeird]

110. Hey, congratulations.

That's a cartoon, right?

Good catch.

Hey, hey, have you seen "All Dogs Go to Heaven?" What about that one, that one with the dinosaurs. Or the rock n'roll chicken? Which one's your favorite?

[anarchy1999]

102. Go and talk with Scott Ritter and Doug Rokke.

http://sftimes.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$61

The San Francisco Times
"When all the news is not fit to print"


Dr. Doug Rokke's address on Depleted Uranium
Vieques Libre - http://www.viequeslibre.org

The following is a copy of the Address given by Dr. Doug Rokke, former head of the Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project, at the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition 17th Annual Leadership Breakfast, at the U.S. Senate Caucus Room on November 10, 2000. Adrian Cronauer was Master of Ceremonies.

Distinguished Members of Congress, Coalition Leaders, Fellow Warriors, and Guests-- It is a distinct honor to address you today. During the Gulf War I was the U.S. Army health physicist assigned to 12th Preventive Medicine AM theater command staff and the 3rd U.S. Army Medical Command headquarters. I was recalled to active duty 20 years after serving in Vietnam, from my research job with the University of Illinois Physics Department and sent to the Gulf to ensure that all military and civilian personnel were prepared for the anticipated nuclear, biological, chemical, and environmental exposures. I also was assigned to two equally vital special operations teams: Bauers Raiders and the Depleted Uranium Assessment team.

The preparations for war take many forms. Infantry soldiers learn and practice their combat skills, truck drivers practice maneuvering their rigs to make sure they can deliver supplies, and medical personnel prepare to treat the expected combat casualties. Ideally, preparations are driven by intelligence reports. However as the recent bombing of the U.S.S. Cole shows commanders may ignore intelligence information and not protect either their personnel or equipment. Prior to the start of Operation Desert Storm military intelligence reports and threats issued by President Saddam Hussein suggested that nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare and environmental hazards (NBC-E) would be employed to win battles.

As we prepared for the battle in the Deserts of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=86

Ritter Blasts Bush's War

Ex-weapons inspector and former Marine Scott Ritter is calling for regime change in Washington.
By Jan Barry
Special To VAIW, May 5, 2003

Scott Ritter may be the Bush reelection team’s worse nightmare.

The former UN chief weapons inspector in Iraq and card-carrying Republican is barnstorming America with a blunt message: George W. Bush’s war on Iraq was waged on a “bodyguard of lies.”

“We need regime change, and we need it quick,” Ritter told a gathering of peace activists in New Jersey on Sunday. “George W. Bush does not have the right…to represent the American people, if he told a lie. And he told a whopper.”

[anarchy1999]

103. Go and talk with Scott Ritter and Doug Rokke.

http://sftimes.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$61

The San Francisco Times
"When all the news is not fit to print"


Dr. Doug Rokke's address on Depleted Uranium
Vieques Libre - http://www.viequeslibre.org

The following is a copy of the Address given by Dr. Doug Rokke, former head of the Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project, at the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition 17th Annual Leadership Breakfast, at the U.S. Senate Caucus Room on November 10, 2000. Adrian Cronauer was Master of Ceremonies.

Distinguished Members of Congress, Coalition Leaders, Fellow Warriors, and Guests-- It is a distinct honor to address you today. During the Gulf War I was the U.S. Army health physicist assigned to 12th Preventive Medicine AM theater command staff and the 3rd U.S. Army Medical Command headquarters. I was recalled to active duty 20 years after serving in Vietnam, from my research job with the University of Illinois Physics Department and sent to the Gulf to ensure that all military and civilian personnel were prepared for the anticipated nuclear, biological, chemical, and environmental exposures. I also was assigned to two equally vital special operations teams: Bauers Raiders and the Depleted Uranium Assessment team.

The preparations for war take many forms. Infantry soldiers learn and practice their combat skills, truck drivers practice maneuvering their rigs to make sure they can deliver supplies, and medical personnel prepare to treat the expected combat casualties. Ideally, preparations are driven by intelligence reports. However as the recent bombing of the U.S.S. Cole shows commanders may ignore intelligence information and not protect either their personnel or equipment. Prior to the start of Operation Desert Storm military intelligence reports and threats issued by President Saddam Hussein suggested that nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare and environmental hazards (NBC-E) would be employed to win battles.

As we prepared for the battle in the Deserts of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=86

Ritter Blasts Bush's War

Ex-weapons inspector and former Marine Scott Ritter is calling for regime change in Washington.
By Jan Barry
Special To VAIW, May 5, 2003

Scott Ritter may be the Bush reelection team’s worse nightmare.

The former UN chief weapons inspector in Iraq and card-carrying Republican is barnstorming America with a blunt message: George W. Bush’s war on Iraq was waged on a “bodyguard of lies.”

“We need regime change, and we need it quick,” Ritter told a gathering of peace activists in New Jersey on Sunday. “George W. Bush does not have the right…to represent the American people, if he told a lie. And he told a whopper.”

[anarchy1999]

117. Have you ever spent any time with Doug Rokke? Maybe if not, you should

try to. UmKay?

[proudbluestater]

41. Dr. Weird and VetWife, looks like you are both right.

"Dioxin is a general term that describes a group of hundreds of chemicals that are highly persistent in the environment. The most toxic compound is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin or TCDD. The toxicity of other dioxins and chemicals like PCBs that act like dioxin are measured in relation to TCDD. Dioxin is formed as an unintentional by-product of many industrial processes involving chlorine such as waste incineration, chemical and pesticide manufacturing and pulp and paper bleaching. Dioxin was the primary toxic component of Agent Orange, was found at Love Canal in Niagara Falls, NY and was the basis for evacuations at Times Beach, MO and Seveso, Italy."
http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/

[coreystone]

47. I Am Asured By a "neo-conservative" co-worker that "global warming is ...

a "wet dream" that Al Gore had one night when he was very young. If "Dr. Wierd", who has not even completed his Doctoral Dissertation (on what subject??), considers that the expertise which has been allowed to us is consistant with the MANY others who have completed there dissertations in Chemistry, "where does the white go when the snow melts"?? Or would that be out of your field of "ACADEMIC" endeavors???

[DrWeird]

49. Synthetic Organic Chemistry.

And I'll ask you too, where has anything I've said been inconsisten with any widely accepted scientific viewpoint?

[Heddi]

56. I can't believe they're questioning your credentials

This is just outrageous. Because you are *Gasp* in school studying chemistry, and because the information you have disagrees with information others have (hey! it happens...welcome to the wonderful world of science...although YOU knew that...some people in this thread apparently don't....) then you're a republican plant, having your opinions knocked because oooh ho ho you haven't even finished your dissertation (ho ho! what a trump card that was ho ho!) :eyes:

Amazing the lengths people will go to to force THEIR opinion above all else.

I see it in threads re: medicine. Being a nursing student, I know a short thing or two about medicines, procedures, the health-care industry in general. I love it when someone says something not just a little wrong...but ALOT wrong...and they're corrected and suddenly I'm a republican plant who's on the payroll of every pharmaceutical company, that I rape children, burn villages, and am out to promote "THE AGENDA"....when all I was doing was clarifiying the difference between A drug and B drug.

Sigh. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Glad to see we're agreeing tonight, DrW. That's twice in a week......why, I think that's one of the seven signs of the apocolypse (I think it falls after locusts, before leprosy)
:cheers:

[vetwife]

60. I respect Dr. Wierd and never said he/she was a republican plant..

This is a debate on the how letal dioxin is ...That's all.

[Heddi]

63. No, but another poster did

coreystone
Tue Jan-18-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. I Am Asured By a "neo-conservative" co-worker that "global warming is ... a "wet dream" that Al Gore had one night when he was very young. If "Dr. Wierd", who has not even completed his Doctoral Dissertation (on what subject??), considers that the expertise which has been allowed to us is consistant with the MANY others who have completed there dissertations in Chemistry, "where does the white go when the snow melts"?? Or would that be out of your field of "ACADEMIC" endeavors???

---

seems to be alot of unncessary speculation...why is DrWeird's name in quotes, as if he's not who he says he is? Why is the questions surrounding his "academic endeavors" (quotes NOT mine) framed right behind a parse about neo-Conservatives who don't believe in global warming?

Seems like a not-so-sly way of insinuating that DrWeird is in the same league as NeoCons who don't believe in global warming.

You'd agree this is quite an underhanded tactic, wouldn't you?

[coreystone]

76. I work with a "neo-con"! Heddi! If you had read my post without...

"interpolating" any of the comments, you would not have come to the conclusion which you have posted. My "neo-conservative" co-worker has absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Weird. I was only referring to a relationship in my work site that resembled the inconsistent assertions that Dr. Weird has posted.

STILL! Nothing has brought any further to the education of the "dioxin"/"Agent Orange" issue upon which this post was initially made.

I do not consider myself to be "underhanded"! If you would care to respond in a PM, before this thread becomes locked, please do so. Dr. Weird has not indicated an expertise which Dr. Weird had initially indicated. If y'a can't pop the corn, then don't plow the field.

Most Respectfully

coreystone

[DrWeird]

80. If you read carefully, Dr Weird did not initially indicate...

any level of expertise on the subject matter, until Dr. Weird was directly asked "what the fuck makes you think you know what you're talking about?"

At which point Dr. Weird decided it would be in everybody's best interest for Dr. Weird to be uncharacteristically immodest.

[vetwife]

83. This was a simple little thread and no hysterics and suddenly

people no longer want to debate, they want to name call and each of us have our opinions. I do not have a doc degree. I am not a chemist but I did see some bad things going on in my community. I am not a nut or hysterical person. If there was not a problem it would not be investigated and no I did not call for the investigation.

If people have misinterpreted this bit of information then so be it ..it was not intended to be a flame fest but a concern for the pollution and big corporations. I only know what I have read and what I have seen firsthand and that ws the purpose of this discussion.

[DrWeird]

85. Right, and I never intended this as a flame fest either.

Consider my replies to you as constructive criticism, that's how they were intended.

[vetwife]

88. Mine too..Wow..What happened?

[DrWeird]

89. anarchy

apparently.

[anarchy1999]

99. Anarchy happened, according to you and it was my fault.

Sorry. Read up and do your research, DrWeird. So long and fare thee well.

[DrWeird]

106. I'm still waiting...

for you to correct anything I've got wrong with the chemistry.

You seem oddly quiet on the issue.

[anarchy1999]

109. I'm not oddly quiet. You aren't worth my time. Period.

Go do your own damn research, Doctor.

[DrWeird]

111. Does that mean you won't help me with my Chemistry?

I mean, you say I don't understand chemistry, so it sure would be kind of you to help me, since you must, logically, have a better grasp of it than I do.

Are you too busy? What was it you do again?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heddi]

68. Please elaborate

I am sticking up for another poster who I feel is being unfairly bashed in this thread. I could give two shits about dioxin. I'm not a chemist. I'm not a doctor. I woudln't know dioxin if you put a pound in front of me.

So please..PLEASE....explain how or what I'm refusing to see. I'm really perplexed.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

81. I remember when Heddi showed up.

She, at least at the time, was working for Seattle Weekly, which made me very impressed. Since that's a paper I highly respect. That was an awful long time ago.

Funny, I don't remember when you showed up.

[Heddi]

87. I don't work at the Weekly anymore

My husband and I moved out to the country so I could attend Nursing School. I'm in my second quarter. Yeehaa.

I respect the weekly too. It was a fun paper. I got lots of free stuff :)

[Heddi]

86. WTF are you talking about?

I am a full-time student. I have been on this board since 2001. I did not know it was a requirement to post on a hourly basis, or to notify you of my comings and goings, and to gain approval of times when I wouldn't be posting as much, and to get your permission to post again once I'm "back"

For that matter, how do you know how often I post, where I post, or in what quantity I post? How is it any of your concern?

All I ever do is bash. Oh pshaw. I do other things than bash. Right now I'm studying for a test AND posting AND writing two annotated bibliographies. But you should know that since you've got down to the second when I post and where, etc.

Me thinks someone needs a hobby (here's a hint---that somebody ain't me)

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coreystone]

59. I not a doctoral candidate in chemistry! Pleasease!....

Offer some assistance in your research capabilities to assist the vast amount research which has already been conducted in the relationship between dioxins and "Agent Orange!

Yours!


inconsistent :-)

[DrWeird]

77. Well, if you'd bothered to read the information in this thread...

You'd see that the production of the defoliant Agent Orange produced a by-product chemical called TCDD, which is a dioxin, of which there are several hundred.

But you don't need to be a chemist to know that, you just need to have some high school level reading comprehension skills.

[vetwife]

57. Dr. Wierd ..please look at this article and assess

I appreciate your studies in chemistry and glad that you saw fit to
be candid and say this was not your expertise,. I do appreciate your studies and please look at some of these links and see if you don't come to the same conclusion that others have. Many studies were done in the 80's after so many illnesses were reported and Dow had to admit with reluctance that dioxin was a very dangerous chemical. It was also studied in Operation Ranchand.

The inconsistence I see is that you feel it would have to be in high dosage to be lethal and beared no resemblence to radiation. The VA determines otherwise.

http://www.studentsforbhopal.org/DirtyDow.htm

[Heddi]

61. He said LANTHANIDE chemisty wasn't his expertise

not chemistry in general.

big, big difference

[DrWeird]

75. High doses aren't lethal, per se.

Look at Yuschenko (can somebody help me with that name?), he recieved one of the highest doses in recorded history, and he's walking around fine, will be for years to come, probably.

Now there are any number of toxic chemicals, or toxins for that matter, that would have had him stone cold dead in seconds at a tiny fraction of that dose.

As for low doses and my original point. Your own material, which I highly recommend you read, supports my claim that low dose effects of dioxins are not at all well understood. There have been numerous conflicting reports in peer reviewed articles and it's anything but a well understood, case closed issue. This is why I suggest everybody who's interested read up on the issue.

Dioxins are present in our own bodies. They're everywhere you look in the environment. They're in breast milk. That doesn't mean everybody panic and pretend it's the worst toxin known to man, because I assure you, it's not.

As a wise old chemist once told me, "there are no toxic chemicals, only toxic concentrations."

Now as for radiation. Dioxin has nothing to do with radiation. Yes, they can both cause cancer. So can viruses, that doesn't mean they all have something to do with each other.

[coreystone]

96. Keep learning, I know you didn't come to site not to contritbute!..

Some of us are older. That is NOT a put down. There is a connection between dioxins and "Agent Orange" of the Viet Nam "Police Action"! Research!

17. Tell me something I don't know.

That link pretty much sums up everything I've said.

Including, abstractly, that part about how people who wish to know more about dioxins should do some reading.


Link: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=dioxins++%2B++agent+orange&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3De06890320e034b54%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Ddioxins%2B%2B%252B%2B%2Bagent%2Borange%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.vvvc.org%252Fvvvc%252Fagntor.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPSuggestion%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vvvc.org%2Fvvvc%2Fagntor.htm

Ok! Let’s start with this!

“Orange is a defoliant, a plant killer, that was used in Vietnam for "Territory Denial". The idea was that the VC wouldn't be so hard to kill if we could see them better by killing the jungle canopy that protected them. Specifically Agent Orange was a 50:50 mixture of two Phenoxy herbicides, 2, 4-D (2, 4 dichlorophenoxy acetic acid) and 2, 4, 5-T (2, 4, 5-trichlorophenoxy acetic acid). It is ironic that the Dioxin that makes Agent Orange so deadly isn't even an intended part of the plant killer. Dioxin is a man made by-product of the manufacturing process for making Phenoxy herbicides like Agent Orange. Actually, when 2, 4, 5-T is manufactured a "synthetic contaminant" TCDD (2, 3, 7, 8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin) is an unwanted by-product that cannot be removed.
Dioxins are also created unintentionally during the manufacture of Chlorine containing products like the Polychlorinated Byphenal (PCB) oils used for years in the utility transformers that supply power to our homes. They are created by burning chlorine containing wastes, the plastic pipe Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) for example when burned creates and releases Dioxin. Because of this widespread use dioxins are present, albeit in trace amounts, in the body fat of nearly everyone in the civilized world.
Other factors that make Dioxin poisoning hard to prove is the fact that each individual seems to have their own tolerance to it and everyone has a certain background exposure to the chemical. It may be that this background level serves to hide the seriousness of the situation by clouding the exposure levels required to make a symptom manifest itself. It may also be that Dioxins like TCDD lie dormant in body fats until triggered by some internal stress.
The unpredictable reactions of the lab animals exposed to dioxins and the actual method by which they kill is one of the mysteries that medical science is still trying to solve. One thing is certain, exposure to Dioxins multiplies the chances of cancers, immune system disorders, liver problems, and a host of other complaints. Even more tragic is the fact that exposure to Agent Orange appears to multiply the chances of birth defects in the children of those exposed. Vietnam veterans and certain peasants in South Vietnam have the highest level of exposure of anyone tested.
Orange is a defoliant, a plant killer, that was used in Vietnam for "Territory Denial". The idea was that the VC wouldn't be so hard to kill if we could see them better by killing the jungle canopy that protected them. Specifically Agent Orange was a 50:50 mixture of two Phenoxy herbicides, 2, 4-D (2, 4 dichlorophenoxy acetic acid) and 2, 4, 5-T (2, 4, 5-trichlorophenoxy acetic acid). It is ironic that the Dioxin that makes Agent Orange so deadly isn't even an intended part of the plant killer. Dioxin is a man made by-product of the manufacturing process for making Phenoxy herbicides like Agent Orange. Actually, when 2, 4, 5-T is manufactured a "synthetic contaminant" TCDD (2, 3, 7, 8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin) is an unwanted by-product that cannot be removed.
Dioxins are also created unintentionally during the manufacture of Chlorine containing products like the Polychlorinated Byphenal (PCB) oils used for years in the utility transformers that supply power to our homes. They are created by burning chlorine containing wastes, the plastic pipe Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) for example when burned creates and releases Dioxin. Because of this widespread use dioxins are present, albeit in trace amounts, in the body fat of nearly everyone in the civilized world.

Other factors that make Dioxin poisoning hard to prove is the fact that each individual seems to have their own tolerance to it and everyone has a certain background exposure to the chemical. It may be that this background level serves to hide the seriousness of the situation by clouding the exposure levels required to make a symptom manifest itself. It may also be that Dioxins like TCDD lie dormant in body fats until triggered by some internal stress.

The unpredictable reactions of the lab animals exposed to dioxins and the actual method by which they kill is one of the mysteries that medical science is still trying to solve. One thing is certain, exposure to Dioxins multiplies the chances of cancers, immune system disorders, liver problems, and a host of other complaints. Even more tragic is the fact that exposure to Agent Orange appears to multiply the chances of birth defects in the children of those exposed. Vietnam veterans and certain peasants in South Vietnam have the highest level of exposure of anyone tested.”

OBJECTIVELY! We may pursue the matter. You can do your own research, but, I am certain that I would be able to cite experts beyond “dissertation projects” which would be sufficiently more academically acceptable than the arguments which you have posed!

We are looking for TRUTH, not abstraction!

[DrWeird]

107. And?

Where has any of this contradicted anything I have said?

[bling bling]

92. Don't know if it is helpful or not

But I found a link to Agent Orange information on the Virginia Veterans Benefits and Services website:

http://www1.va.gov/Agentorange/page.cfm?pg=2

[bling bling]

94. Nevermind.

Missread OP, thought question was about Agent Orange. Oops.

[vetwife]

95. In a way it was......

[KT2000]

97. This should help Vetwife

this is about babies exposed in utero:

Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 2005;59:101-105
© 2005 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd
http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/59/2/101

EVIDENCE BASED PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY AND PRACTICE
Childhood cancers and atmospheric carcinogens E G Knox

Correspondence to:
Professor E G Knox
Mill Cottage, Front Street, Great Comberton, Pershore, Worcestershire
WR10 3DU, UK

Study objectives: To retest previous findings that childhood cancers are probably initiated by prenatal exposures to combustion process gases and to volatile organic compounds (VOCs); and to identify specific chemical hazards.

Design: Birth and death addresses of fatal child cancers in Great Britain between 1966 and 1980, were linked with high local atmospheric emissions of different chemical species. Among migrant children, distances from each address to the nearest emissions "hotspot" were compared. Excesses of outward over inward migrations show an increased prenatal or early infancy risk.

Setting and subjects: Maps of emissions of many different substances were published on the internet by the National Atmospheric Emissions Inventory and "hotspots" for 2001 were translated to map coordinates. Child cancer addresses were extracted from an earlier inquiry into the carcinogenic effects of obstetric radiographs; and their postcodes translated to map references.

Main results: Significant birth proximity relative risks were found within 1.0 km of hotspots for carbon monoxide, PM10 particles, VOCs, nitrogen oxides, benzene, dioxins, 1,3-butadiene, and benz(a)pyrene. Calculated attributable risks showed that most child cancers and leukaemias are probably initiated by such exposures.

Conclusions: Reported associations of cancer birth places with sites of industrial combustion, VOCs uses, and associated engine exhausts, are confirmed. Newly identified specific hazards include the known carcinogens 1,3-butadiene, dioxins, and benz(a)pyrene. The mother probably inhales these or related materials and passes them to the fetus across the placenta

[vetwife]

100. Thanks Kt..This new article is what bothered me...in our paper

Southwire suggests dioxin testing on humans
By Tony Montcalm
Southwire Co. has offered its own proposal for testing dioxin levels across Carroll County, this time calling for testing on humans.
A proposal already presented to Southwire by Carroll County Citizens for a Safe Environment calls for wide-ranging tests on fish and soil samples across a majority of Carroll County.

The proposal takes into account wind patterns and methods of identifying the source of dioxin that might be found in the soil samples As we see it, our neighbors` concerns focus on two questions. First, have Carroll County residents absorbed an abnormal amount of dioxins into their bodies as a result of living near Southwire?

`And second, if they have, does this excess of dioxins threaten their health?` wrote Tate.






http://www.times-georgian.com/
dated January 14th 2005
VOL. 14, NO. 12
FRIDAY, January 14, 2005

......................................................

Now that is all this thread was about.....my experience with Dioxin in Agent orange, limited as it might be and the concerns of the community regarding a major corporation and a small town's health. that's it.

[KT2000]

112. That is a huge issue to be sure

I will tell you what happened in our community.

Citizens knew that a paper mill was dumping dioxin contaminated material all over the county and putting it up their stacks. The citizens appealed to the state health dept. They got an investigation going using state agencies. They did not find anything - they took soil samples where they knew there would be none. They interviewed people to see what their health concerns were. One woman asked her doctor if the two kinds of cancers she was fighting could be related to dioxin. He told her if she pursued that he would not continue as her doctor.
The citizens kept pushing so they hired an industry friendly consulting company that also did poor testing. They kept trying to tell us everything was OK.

Eventually the citizens formed a group and applied for a community grant through the EPA. The EPA has these grants because the law acknowledges the imbalance of resources between corporations and citizens.
With the grant, the citizen's group was able to hire a knowldgeable consultant - there are several around the country. Then, testing is conducted that shows a more accurate level of contamination.

In our case there were several kinds of dioxin present and the majority of it was 2,3,7,8-TCDD. It was in the dirt for miles around the mill. It was in the streets where trucks carrying the material dropped it. It was in people's vegetable gardens and yards etc. It has never been cleaned up.

You are right to be concerned about dioxin. The vets were probably exposed to much higher levels than what you have in your town though.

It is more than likely that the kind of dioxin in your community is 2,3,7,8-TCDD as that is the most common. But I would not trust Southwire or the government agencies to do the testing. There should be a citizen's group that hires its own consultant who knows about dioxin. For example, dioxin is not found in water, it is found in soil.

This is not something you can do on your own - get involved with a citizens' group, read Dying from Dioxin by Lois Gibbs who was an organizer at Love Canal.

Finding the truth will take a lot of effort. That is why a consultant for a citizens group is the way to go. Right now there are corporations that are afraid of liability so they are not to be trusted. If you want the truth you will have to hire your own consultant and testing company.

[DrWeird]

113. Georgia Pacific?

Bellingham?

[anarchy1999]

114. It's hard DW, to cross over, we're here and to help. Take a step.

N/t plus you have the knowledge.

Sorry I've fought you so hard tonight. I hope you make it over, it's alot to have to hope for, but still yet, I think you might make it. One can only hope.

[DrWeird]

124. Sir, what ever side you're on, I'm not on it.

I'm on the side of rationality, informed debate, and civility.

You, however, have contributed nothing to this thread but disruption. So I find it hard to believe you actually care about the environment.

[KT2000]

116. No - Rayonier

in Port Angeles

It is my understanding they are even an embarrassment to others in the tight knit pulp and paper industry. They have left town and moved their operations to Florida where I hear they are just as dirty as they were here.

You might be interested to know that they had a dump the state designated "standard non-hazardous waste" located in a residential neighborhood. That was where they dumped their sludge and all other waste from the mill into one lined and two unlined pits. Contents: dioxins, mercury PCB's.
When we heard they were leaving town we knew that it was their intention to dismantle the mill and take the surrounding contamination up to the dump. They were planning to pile it about 4 stories high with the blessings of the state.

Citizen efforts did stop that but the contamination they left in the neighborhood is still there.

[anarchy1999]

119. Hey Heddi, and DrWeird, info is coming in from all directions about

dioxin poisioning. Are you guys ready for the onslaught? It's coming.

Everyone send this out to anyone you may know.

It's coming back at you Heddi and DrWeird, I promise.

Agent Orange, Dioxin, herbicides, chems that kill brush and trees, give it up. Are you SICK?

YET?

[anarchy1999]

115. Sounds like some place in Texas. I can get the info, can you?

n/t

[KT2000]

118. Huh?

what information do you mean?

[anarchy1999]

120. Any info you might have, plain and simple. You know what you know.

You know what you have seen, you know how many members of your family have been hurt and or now dead. Ready to stand up yet?

Probably not. So sad.

[KT2000]

121. You have no idea

what I know - what I have seen and how much I have lost

you also don't know what my efforts are or have been or how many years I have been at it.

I guess I don't understand your attitude.

[anarchy1999]

122. Please I'm sorry you are offended. Please.

There is a miscommunication.. Thank you Heddi, et al. I know what you've seen, and I don't want to know how many years you've been at "it". I'd just like to talk, period.

[KT2000]

123. OK ........

miscommunications happen sometimes.

[shraves]

105. I think it is difficult to test humans for dioxin

I thought the reason that it took so long to diagnose Yushchenko was because there are very few labs that can test for dioxins and because it is very expensive. On the other hand, I think that humans might be better subjects of study because they retain dioxin in their fat a lot longer than fish.