Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Should the Democrats Fight to End the US Occupation of Iraq?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:53 AM
Original message
Should the Democrats Fight to End the US Occupation of Iraq?
There's an excellent Jonathan Schell article in the Nation (link below) arguing the "moral mission" of our time is not, as Condoleeza Rice would have us believe, the building of a democratic Iraq, but, rather, ending the US occupation of Iraq. He argues a conqueror is ill suited to such a task and to whatever degree a democratic Iraq can be built (and history suggests there's no guarantee it can be), the United Nations is much better suited to undertake the project.

He doesn't directly say this, but I think it's fair to argue a joint US/UN operation will simply discredit the UN by tarring them with the hatred Iraqis already have for the US. In addition, while losing is not always something to be joyously embraced, adoption of Schell's proposed course would help stall, and, one can hope, bring an end to the Bush Administration's imperialist policies.

Not surprisingly, Dennis Kucinich has already proposed a US withdrawal for Iraq. He advocates the introduction of UN peacekeepers to takeover the reconstruction of Iraq. He also wants the US to provide funds for reconstruction and wants the arrangement to provide for the planning of a transition from UN control to self-determination by the Iraqi people. I've linked below to his position.

I'm wondering what other DUers think about this. It seems the Democrats have four options (smarter people will be able to figure out additional options). Which would best serve the party?

1. Agree with Bush and agree to fund the additional $87 billion.

2. Use the appropriation request as an opportunity to excoriate the Bush Administration for its rush to war and its lack of a post-war policy, then reluctantly approve the $87 billion.

3. Excoriate, but refuse to approve the $87 billion unless the Bush Administration agrees to power sharing with the United Nations.

4. Refuse to approve the $87 billion, advocate an appropriate sum for reconstruction, and demand the Bush Administration agree to negotiate a withdrawal of US troops and a UN takeover of Iraq.

LINKS:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/030728Iraqst.html

Kucinich Renews Calls For The US Withdrawal From Iraq

“Assertions by the President, and his Administration, that the war is over and that our mission was accomplished, like their claims about Iraq’s ‘vast stockpiles’ of WMD’s, are false and misleading. This weekend, with the deaths of 5 US troops, we were once again reminded of the dangers facing US troops in what has become a quagmire. To date 243 US troops have died in Iraq.

“It is time that the United States begin the process of withdrawing our troops, and allow a UN peacekeeping force to take over the reconstruction of Iraq.

“This Administration has no exit strategy for removing US troops from harm’s way. It is now clear, that in their rush to war the Administration failed to adequately prepare for the post-invasion period.

“The United Nations must be brought in. Negotiations for an exit must begin now. An exit agreement with the United Nations must involve the US letting go of the contracting process.

“The UN must also take over management, accounting and distribution to the Iraqi people of Iraq’s oil profits. Additionally, a transition from UN control to self- determined governing structure by and for the Iraqi people must be planned. Finally the Administration, which unwisely ordered the bombing, must fund the reconstruction.

more...

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16720

The Importance of Losing the War
By Jonathan Schell, The Nation and TomDispatch.com


The basic mistake of American policy in Iraq is not that the Pentagon – believing the fairy tales told it by Iraqi exile groups and overriding State Department advice – forgot, when planning "regime change," to bring along a spare government to replace the one it was smashing.

The mistake was not that, once embarked on running the place, the administration did not send enough troops to do the job. Not that a civilian contingent to aid the soldiers was lacking. Not that the Baghdad museum, the Jordanian Embassy, the United Nations and Imam Ali mosque, among other places, were left unguarded. Not that no adequate police force, whether American or Iraqi, was provided to keep order generally. Not that the United States, seeking to make good that lack, then began to recruit men from the most hated and brutal of Saddam's agencies, the Mukhabarat.

<edit>

Biden says we must win the war. This is precisely wrong. The United States must learn to lose this war – a harder task, in many ways, than winning, for it requires admitting mistakes and relinquishing attractive fantasies. This is the true moral mission of our time (well, of the next few years, anyway).

The cost of leaving will certainly be high, just not anywhere near as high as trying to "stay the course," which can only magnify and postpone the disaster. And yet – regrettable to say – even if this difficult step is taken, no one should imagine that democracy will be achieved by this means. The great likelihood is something else – something worse: perhaps a recrudescence of dictatorship or civil war, or both. An interim period – probably very brief – of international trusteeship is the best solution, yet it is unlikely to be a good solution. It is merely better than any other recourse.

The good options have probably passed us by. They may never have existed. If the people of Iraq are given back their country, there isn't the slightest guarantee that they will use the privilege to create a liberal democracy. The creation of democracy is an organic process that must proceed from the will of the local people. Sometimes that will is present, more often it is not. Vietnam provides an example. Vietnam today enjoys the self-determination it battled to achieve for so long; but it has not become a democracy.

more...



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Out
The US should not be occupying any country. If such a thing is ever necessary, it is the job of the UN and it's peacekeeping forces. The US should rejoin the rest of the world and stop being a cowboy. Iraq should be the responsibility of the people who want to live there. A government of Iraqis should be established and then the UN should help. The US now (because of Shrubhead and company) has a moral responsibility to give aid and comfort and money to repair the damage it has done. But military should be out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. SHOULD they? Yes. WILL they? Don't count on it.
Imperialism in foreign policy has been a wholly bipartisan affair throughout the 20th century. While the current administration may be completely over-the-top about it, that does not mean that it is something that is solely embraced by Republicans.

While there have been Democratic "backbenchers" in Congress speaking out against it, almost to a man/woman the more prominent faces have been supportive of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. 4. US OUT NOW! The Rapist Must Leave!
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 09:07 AM by Tinoire
4. Refuse to approve the $87 billion, advocate an appropriate sum for reconstruction, and demand the Bush Administration agree to negotiate a withdrawal of US troops and a UN takeover of Iraq.

The US has no moral choice but to withdraw as quietly as possible. Our troops and our country will always rightfully be hated there.

Let the UN and the Iraqis work this one out with NO US interference or input.

We have already done enough!

On edit: I will not be able to support any Democratic candidate advocating any US involvement in the occupation of Iraq. No US corporation must gain from this war! The US must in NO WAY profit or reap ANY reward from the obscenity we visited on the Iraqis!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Agreed.
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 11:10 AM by TahitiNut
  • The Bushoilini Reich proclaimed as their sole objective the removal of Saddam Hussein. All else was sheer rationalization of that objective. Period.
  • Done. Fini. Leave.
  • The "coalition" should pay the costs of all "collateral damage" done to accomplish a totally self-serving goal.
  • The consequential objective of rebuilding/democratizing Iraq should only be taken on by those whose interests are served by doing so.
  • That's not the Bushoilini Reich. That can only be accomplished under the sponsorship and oversight of the UN and international humanitarian organizations, involving the most representative spectrum of Iraqis possible.

Absolutely nobody other than those who inflicted this damage to achieve their own goals, no matter how legitimate, should have to pay these costs, and that doesn't include Iraqis.

For comparison, if the police commandeer your car and home in order to contain and capture an alleged lawbreaker, you have no obligation in equity to bear the costs of that, nor are you obliged to submit to the control or oversight of the police department in accomplishing those repairs. Any claim that they "served" you is totally specious and inconsequential with regards to compensation for the losses you sustained.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. NO- we should transform the occupation into another form of aid...
Pull back the troops to keep rival factions from making war on each other, let the cleraics and locals restore order to the cities and give COMPLETE control to the UN.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Don't be so quick to fix little man bushie's problems...
it will be the same as giving him your vote in 2004.

Drag it out and let the snake crawl and twist. Let the new democrat President handle the situation through deplomacy, world and UN support.

Don't rush and help the bastard now. The nooze is around his neck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The only problem I have with that...
Is the metaphorical noose around Bush's* neck is a real-world death sentence for many young Americans in Iraq.

If it were just Dumya, I'd let the bastard twist in the wind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Obviously I'm the minority here
Hi, I'm Matt, the latest n00b.

I can understand wanting to pull our troops out, but as far as I'm concerned, that's simply not feasible. I agree with Biden here - we broke the country, and it's critical that we fix it. Do I think it's a role for our infantry? Probably not.

If it were up to me, we'd have our infantry doing what infantry does best - bunker down, and defend important targets. Instead of sending them out on the streets to act as police, get *actual* police forces going. Gradually faze out the need for a military presence into a peacekeeping force.

Then again, if I had my way, we'd have a fifth branch of DoD with a sole purpose of keeping the peace - think Peace Corp, but much larger scale.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RichV Donating Member (858 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Right on
With you Matt. And welcome to DU. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. No WMDs---the impending danger and rationale
for rushing in and destroying the Country's infrastructure---and not even a slap on the wrists. Why should they be rewarded by getting more of what they ask for? Control should be taken away from the US--who already demonstrated their incompetence and the UN should take over just to help out Iraq because it is the right thing to do. But the US should stand accused in the eyes of the world and shoulder the consequences of its actions. Control should be relinquished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Hi kiahzero!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
German-Lefty Donating Member (568 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
10. Step one: get rid of Bush
We're there now. We have a responsiblity as occupiers under international law.

People keep saying get the UN in there, like they've got half a million troops on standby just ready to go in. They've got some good specialists, but the only way it's going to work is if we get those coutries involved. That means paying, bribing, or appologizing to all the people we pissed off in the first place.

The US has to be ready to:
1) pay a bunch of money to get others to clean up our mess
2) admit that it's our mess
3) share the authority, not just responsiblity with others

None of these things are going to happen while Bush Co is in office.

Politically what should be done is to call into question Bush's competance, because of his inablity to turn 180 and do what's obviously needed. In a parlament it'd be time for a vote of no confidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. Get out. Let an Arab force patrol the country
The U.S. occupied the country based on a lie. The administration has created a "terrorist" hornet's nest where none was there before. The occupation should be turned over to an Arab force. The longer we stay there, the worse it will be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. The US needs to leave behind an autonomous Iraq which isn't in the sway
of the US right wing. They should let Sweden move in and set up a social democracy which can no longer be used by the American right wing to justify imperialism in the middle east.

If the US pulls out today, it means the Republicans will have the tools to make the same policy arguments they've been making for the last 30 years (ie, profits for the oil industry are in America's best interests, and the threats to US national security created in a volatile ME require us to shift a lot of tax money to the REpublicans' favorite industries).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
German-Lefty Donating Member (568 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I like Sweden, but I don't think we should just pick some country
and hand over the situation to them and some money. Making war as well as peace lead to industries that can corrupt governments.

I have a theory that the best bet is to put a bunch of coutries' troops there. So that all of them have a vested interest in the mission. This may keep down the cronism to some extent. If we all blow the money on companies that don't deliver anything for the Iraqi people. Then all our troops will be screwed, and nobody will get any oil money anyway.

An open an fair bidding process is nessesary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I wasn't speaking literally.
What I'm trying to say is that if you pull out today, the Republicans have what they need to keep up with the same policies that led to Iraq in the first place. We need for Iraq what Bush will never do -- a bulwark which will no longer serve as a justification for Republican BS foreign policy. A country with the moral authority of Sweden could probably achieve that outcome, but not the Bush administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. US should get out. But "should" doesn't guide the Dems, because they
are not in any way the "Party of Virtue." They are merely the lesser evil.

Here is what "should" happen: The US should apologize to the world; admit the invasion was a criminal action based on lies; pay reparations for the reconstruction of Iraq; & get not a nickel of oil-related plunder out of the entire atrocity. Bush & all his henchmen should be jailed and tried for war crimes.

Here is what the Dems will do: Like the pathetic cowards they are, they will seek to do some "excoriating" of Bush, by criticizing him around the margins for his tactics -- but always glossing over the central criminality of what the US has done (with Dem complicity). Then they will vote to "stay the course, as 7 of the 8 in Albuquerque last week counseled.

Only Kucinich is anywhere near right, naturally. And EVEN HE was calling for the UN to come in -- which also is a form of great-power control that is not going to be welcomed by many in Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. agreed, 100 percent...
What he said! Let's not forget that many congressional dems participated in the Bushco conspiracy to deceive the U.S., the U.N., and the international community in order to invade Iraq. I won't be looking to them for strong condemnation anytime soon-- it'll be hard for them to explain why they enabled smirkboy in the first place. Instead, I expect them to continue enabling him until we get them out of office and replace them with real opposition party members.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. The quickest route out
Is to have a democratic government put in place. Use our constitution (revamped to accomadate the Iraqi's) as the starting point. A federal system with assorted states such as we have in the US.....is not a bad idea.

In three months the Iraqi's would be self ruled. The US would then pull out and the new Iraqi leaders would decide whether or not to invite the UN for help.

The US pays the bill, but our troops are no longer stationed there.

A real democracy in Iraq is the last thing the Bush empire wants. So let's make them have to live with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. Imagine if in 1965 the US had ended its invasion of Vietnam and allowed
the UN to oversee the reunification election called for by the 1954 Geneva accords. Millions of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. Why people insist on believing the US is a builder of democracies is beyond me (Guatemala, Nicaragua, Chile etc etc etc). Given the parties involved, it's pretty clear "build a democracy in Iraq" is code for "don't lose the '04 elections".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Dec 27th 2024, 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC