How can any Christian support the death penalty?

[CarpeVeritas]

It's always puzzled me that the percentage of people in the U.S. claiming to be christian is pretty close to the same as the percentage who claim to favour the death penalty- (both around 75%, IIRC).

with such clear-cut biblical passages as:

"thou shalt not kill"
"judge not, lest thou be judged"
"vengence is MINE, sayeth the lord"
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

etc. etc. etc...


what gives?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CarpeVeritas]

3. do jewish people have a different 10 commandments?

[Desertrose]

2. How can any human being support the death penalty?

Where is the logic in killing another human being because that person killed?

If murder is wrong then how can a group of peers and a judge doing it make it right???





edit typos/clarity

[K-W]

12. So how exactly are we supposed to have a judicial system,

if even after due process it isnt ok for a court to sentance people to anything?

If the death penalty is murder than fines are stealing and imprisonment is kidnapping.

And the logic is that fear of death keeps people from committing crimes.

[Desertrose]

19. where did I say you can't have a judicial system?

I simply said that it doesn't seem logical to me to tell someone it is wrong to kill and then by virtue of judge & jury it is OK if we kill them??

"If the death penalty is murder than fines are stealing and imprisonment is kidnapping."

SO you are saying because I don't feel we have the right to take another's life that we can't fine or imprison those who do break the law??

"And the logic is that fear of death keeps people from committing crimes."

Well...has this logic of fear of the death penalty stopped people from commiting crimes so far?



on edit (BTW and FWIW I am not a Christian)

[eallen]

4. There also are all those verses that command execution for those who....

Well, there is a surprisingly long list of things for which the Bible prescribes the death penalty. My neighborhood witches would be in deep trouble. So as always, it's a matter of interpretation.

[bryant69]

5. Thou Shalt Not Kill

Really means "Thou shalt not Murder" according to those who believe that way.

As for the others, they would seem to indicate that Christians should do away with all legal proceedings in their societies. I mean if we aren't allowed to judge a murderer, should we really be allowed to judge a thief?

Along the same lines, I think this is one of the reasons Christianity should be supporting a seperation of Church and State--the State has seperate duties than the Church. Obviously we need some sort of court system to protect us--whether that involves the death penalty or not, somebody is going to have to do some judging.

Also, just so you know, I don't necessarily favor the death penalty--If pressed I'd be opposed to it, due to some of the uncertanties involved, but the truth is I'm not 100% sure one way or the other (I know I shouldn't admit that).

Bryant
Check it out--> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ando]

7. bravo

well done.

[CarpeVeritas]

13. if it means "murder", why doesn't it say "murder"?

maybe someone should buy god a nice dictionary...

apparently being a christian means whatever is most convienent at the time.

[bryant69]

15. What a great response

Boy you really put me in my place. But maybe just one more attempt to explain it. The bible was translated from ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Texts. Sometimes the translations didn't capture the meaning of the original documents exactly.

So when they came to that part of the Bible, they transcribed Thou shalt not Murder as Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Bryant

[CarpeVeritas]

21. and how are you privy to that info?

the meaning of the original documents, that is? :

"...Sometimes the translations didn't capture the meaning of the original documents exactly..."


"...when they came to that part of the Bible, they transcribed Thou shalt not Murder as Thou Shalt Not Kill."

if you know it's a typo, why doesn't anyone else? and if "they" do, why haven't "they" fixed it yet?

[Ando]

23. It's not hard

It's not that hard to find out for yourself. Find a Hebrew Torah and a Hebrew dictionary. It's pretty easy and it's not a typo, it's a mis-translation.

[Ando]

16. It does

It always did say murder. Kill is a mis-translation of the original Hebrew. Some newer translations do use murder in the same passage.

edit: beat me to it!

[forgethell]

20. It does in

the original Hebrew, or so I am told.

[pschoeb]

24. Kill comes from King James Bible

Which at the time murder would have been an inappropriate word to use as at that time murder meant to kill someone in secret, that is when they were in a state where they couldn't defend themselves, or by a means like poison, or by means in which you wouldn't publicly be known to have killed someone.

It was considered a heinous and cowardly crime, as it meant that no one could seek retribution against you, as you would be unknown(unless figured out, or you screwed up). But it wasn't considered the only illegitimate/sinful act of killing, as one could kill someone in public, and this would not have been called murder, but could still be considered illegitimate if there were no valid supporting reasons for the killing.

Many English translations that came after KJV have bowed to this tradition because of the importance given to the KJV, but most new translation have murder, as that word has evolved to include most illegitimate killings, though even in modern usage we are sometimes as unclear as ever. For example the word killer, usuaully connotes murderer, and we are usually carefull about how we use it.

Oh, just a note, I'm an atheist

[ladjf]

6. How could any Christian support Bush and his henchmen?

[progressiveBadger]

8. Hypocracy of religion

Unfortunately, a vast number of people that I've known that have bought into christianity are complete hypocrites. The death penalty is just one example. Another would be war. And what about wealthy christians?
The list goes on and on. It seems that they pick and choose between a liberal compassionate Jesus view or a vengeful God view.
I'm not saying all christians are this way, just many of the ones I know.

[Guns Aximbo]

9. because they're hypocrites

[quiet.american]

10. Too many overlook this counsel....

"With all thy getting, get understanding."

[Nimrod]

11. It's pretty simple

All threads of Christian bashing aside, it comes down to the same thing. There are 10 gazillion people who call themselves christians with 10 gazillion different views of right and wrong. AND here's the kicker - all 10 gazillion of them will ALSO tell you they're the "true Christians".

Christian #1: I'm a true Christian. An Eye For An Eye and God Hates Fags. Kill the Ragheads.

Christian #2: I'm a true Christian. Turn the other cheek and God Loves Everybody. Stop the war.

Non-Christian: I'm sick of Christian attitudes.

Christian #1 and #2 in stereo: Didn't I just SAY that I AM THE TRUE CHRISTIAN!?!? Don't you oppress ME!

Non-Christian: Hoo boy.

So basically, the answer is - don't ask such questions. People have their own beliefs and some will decide to put God behind every one of them. It's not a question of Christianity at all.

[DrWeird]

14. IMHO, you can't.

Same with being rich.

IMHO, you can believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God all you want to, but if you don't follow his teachings, you're not a real Christian.

[forgethell]

17. Well,

most of the passages apply to the individual, not the government. As for vengeance, well, justice is really vengeance, now is it. And even if it is, read Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

As I understand it, these Christians feel that they government is the duly appointed proxy for God, in these situations.

If you actually talk to people with differing views, sometimes you can understand them better.

[welshTerrier2]

18. the power of the state and deterrence ...

duly elected governments should have every right to define the law and enforce the law ...

but that does not absolve them from simple constraints of right and wrong ... for example, it would not be OK for a government to prescribe the death penalty for a citizen arrested for littering ...

so first and foremost, let's agree that there must be some type of standard as to appropriate punishment ... and of course, that standard will always be subjective ...

the standard i believe in, without getting into the entire arena of racism and wrongful convictions, and it's a very large arena filled with the executed bodies of those who suffered such inequities, is a standard of "minimum necessary force" ... if a citizen is arrested, handcuffed, and restrained in the back of a police car, the policeman does not have a right to shoot and kill you because you pose a threat to society ... that's true even if he witnessed the crime ... and it's true no matter how heinous the crime was ...

some will argue that the police car example fails to respect the sanctity of our jury system ... well, fair enough ... but the standard holds there as well ... if a government proves its case and has a convicted person in custody, the society is safe from that person ... yes, perhaps escape is possible but that is not a sound basis for policy ... so the discussion then turns to "deterrence" ... while one could perhaps allow the state any basis it deems appropriate for sentencing, deterrence to me seems outside the realm of punishment ... it's goal is not to punish the convicted person according to his crime but rather to serve some other social purpose ... and i don't believe there's any credible evidence to support the death penalty as a deterrent ... if we want to reduce the homicide rate, we need to end class warfare and produce more hope for those at the lower end of the economic spectrum ... under Clinton, with a strong economy, murder rates went down ... under bush, guess what happened? you favor deterrence? end the class war ... that's the best deterrent we've ever had ...

and the death penalty's exceeding of the standard of "minimum necessary force" rears its head in other arenas ... violating this principle is a slippery slope that embodies other undesirable behaviors ... i believe that all conflict should adhere to this standard ... i don't suggest here that condoning the death penalty is the reason we went into Iraq ... but i do believe that condoning the violation of the standard of "minimum necessary force" does become an enabler for war ... without rehashing the Iraq debate here, suffice it to say that Saddam was "contained" ... and because he was absolutely "contained", he posed no "imminent threat" ... in fact, while he was contained, he posed no threat at all ...

so for me, the state's power should be limited to doing all that it must do to protect society from violence ... anything beyond that is excessive ... and for that reason, i believe the death penalty is wrong ...

[VOX]

22. WWJE? (Who Would Jesus Execute?)

I urge those who favor state-sanctioned death to take a long look at the list of countries that have abolished the death penalty; then do the same with those countries that still permit it. See if there isn't something that feels out-of-place about the United States still being included on the "permitted" list:

Death Penalty Abolished (year):
Andorra (1990)
Angola (1992)
Australia (1984)
Austria (1950)
Azerbaijan (1998)
Belgium (1996)
Bermuda (1999)
Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
Bulgaria (1998)
Cambodia (1989)
Canada (1976)
Cape Verde (1981)
Colombia (1910)
Costa Rica (1877)
Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
Croatia (1990)
Cyprus (1983)
Czech Republic (1990)
Denmark (1933)
Djibouti (1995)
Dominican Republic (1966)
East Timor (1999)
Ecuador (1906)
Estonia (1998)
Finland (1949)
France (1981)
Georgia (1997)
Germany (1987)
Guinea-Bissau (1993)
Haiti (1987)
Honduras (1956)
Hungary (1990)
Iceland (1928)
Ireland (1990)
Italy (1947)
Kiribati (1979)
Liechtenstein (1987)
Lithuania (1998)
Luxembourg (1979)
Macedonia (1991)
Malta (1971)
Marshall Islands (1986)
Mauritius (1995)
Micronesia (1986)
Moldova (1995)
Monaco (1962)
Mozambique (1990)
Namibia (1990)
Nepal (1990)
Netherlands (1870)
New Zealand (1961)
Nicaragua (1979)
Norway (1905)
Palau (n.a.)
Panama (1903)
Paraguay (1992)
Poland (1997)
Portugal (1867)
Romania (1989)
Samoa (2004)
San Marino (1848)
São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
Serbia and Montenegro (2002)
Seychelles (1993)
Slovak Republic (1990)
Slovenia (1989)
Solomon Islands (1966)
South Africa (1995)
Spain (1978)
Sweden (1921)
Switzerland (1942)
Turkmenistan (1999)
Tuvalu (1978)
Ukraine (1999)
United Kingdom (1973)
Uruguay (1907)
Vanuatu (1980)
Vatican City State (1969)
Venezuela (1863)

De Facto Ban on Death Penalty (year):
Algeria (1993)
Benin (1987)
Bhutan (1964)
Brunei Darussalam (1957)
Burkina Faso (1988)
Central African Republic (1981)
Congo (Republic) (1982)
Gambia (1981)
Grenada (1978)
Kenya (n.a.)
Madagascar (1958)
Maldives (1952)
Mali (1980)
Mauritania (1987)
Nauru (1968)
Niger (1976)
Papua New Guinea (1950)
Russian Federation (1999)
Senegal (1967)
Sri Lanka (1976)
Suriname (1982)
Togo (n.a.)
Tonga (1982)
Tunisia (1990)

Death Penalty Permitted in Exceptional Cases:
Albania (2000)
Argentina (1984)
Armenia (2003)
Bolivia (1997)
Brazil (1979)
Chile (2001)
Cook Islands (n.a.)
El Salvador (1983)
Fiji (1979)
Greece (1993)
Israel (1954)
Latvia (1999)
Mexico (n.a.)
Peru (1979)
Turkey (2004)

Death Penalty Permitted:
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Morocco
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States of America
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe