Hindus launch bid to reclaim swastika

[forgethell]

Here's an interesting article. I wonder how this problem will be resolved. I wonder if anyone has any opinions about how it should be resolved?




http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11992657%255E2703,00.html


:)

[seriousstan]

1. It has been resolved. The Nazis tarnished the symbol forever.

[Mr.Green93]

19. Western Civilization

will not be here forever. Eastern will.

[forgethell]

30. Now I am interested.

On what evidence do you base that prediction?

[Jack_DeLeon]

38. thats a pretty arrogant statement.

[seriousstan]

43. Prove me wrong and I will withdraw it otherwise it is the truth, not

arrogance. There is a difference.

[LoZoccolo]

44. It's a completely western-centric view.

And one that assumes what a group of us designate the symbol to mean should affect the meaning to another culture which has been using it much longer.

[seriousstan]

45. I see, nobody but americans know about the nazis?

[LoZoccolo]

46. Who said that? I didn't.

But it seems a lot of Americans don't know that this is an old old old old symbol. It's also a Native American symbol as well.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. well its kinda annoying to me that hitler stole our swastika

on the other hand i woudl never put it up in this country...cos i dont want to hurt someone who was already hurt by hitler

[DrWeird]

3. How about a movement to reclaim little square mustaches?

nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. a culturally important symbol is not the same as a fashion statement

[DrWeird]

8. Has the swastika or manji gone anywhere in Eastern society?

I mean, I know there have been a few cases where some Jewish groups got upset because of some manji decals on a Japanese toy robot action figure, and let us not forget Dungeon 3 of the first quest in The Legend of Zelda. But aside from a few isolated incidents, has this really caused much trouble? Have people not been able to judge from the context what the symbol is meant to imply? Did anybody think that Prince Harry went to that party dressed up as a Hindu holy man?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

ofcourse not....but i still think you were triviliazing the importance of

the swastika to hindus in your first argument.


your second one, makes perfect sense.

[DrWeird]

23. It was a Seinfeld reference, actually.

There's an episode where he jokes about Hitler ruining little square mustaches forever.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. sorry, my bad, did not get it.

:toast:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. ofcourse not....but i still think you were triviliazing the importance of

the swastika to hindus in your first argument.


your second one, makes perfect sense.

[tjdee]

5. The Hindi swastika goes the other way, for one.

Second, I wouldn't really walk into an Indian home and go "oh my god, they're nazis"!!

Perhaps they can educate people as to the differences?

I do agree that it sucks to have to give up thousands of years of history for 20 years of depravity.

Obviously there are other Hindu symbols they can still use.

I don't know. The swatiska is deeply offensive... I don't know.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. if the cross was so perverted...woudl you ask christians to go

find another symbol?

[tjdee]

12. I don't know.

I'm torn on this issue. Like I said, I can't see giving up all that history just because the Nazis were fuckers.

But still.

As to Christians...am I misunderstanding the importance of the swastika? The article says, and I always understood it as, a good luck symbol. Like a shamrock? (or how some Jews put that...I don't know what it's called... above/next to a door? The cross is integral to Christianity as the savior is said to have been hung on one. I'd equate a swastika to maybe angels, not crosses.

That being, I certainly would ask Christians to find another symbol if it were perverted by neo-cons or whomever. I am a weenie, and I wouldn't want to hurt other people. As long as I'm able to practice how I see fit, I don't care if Christians use a cross, or that stupid fish, or whatever.

I would however, be VERY PISSED that we had to do so and would respect those who were doing what some Hindus are doing now.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. the swstika is second only to om in terms of importance

we use it in all our religious festivals etc.

[tjdee]

17. Has this been an issue for a while then?

This is the first I'm hearing of a campaign to save the swastika.
Has this been an ongoing issue for Hindus?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. only the ones that live abroad....

and i dont think its a big deal to me...but i dont want to say that about ALL hindus cos most people are more religious than i am/

[tjdee]

29. Cool....thanks for explaining that,

Seems I was indeed mistaken in my thoughts about the significance to Hindus of the swastika.

[forgethell]

7. Yeah,

me neither. That's why I asked for opinions. I don't know, except that I am generally not in favor of bans on speech or expression of any kind. Might have to make an exception for the swastika, though. As you said, "I don't know".

[tx_dem41]

11. May I politely suggest that if you feel you have to make exceptions...

then you might not really feel that strongly about the freedom of speech/expression in the first place.

[forgethell]

15. You can certainly suggest that.

In fact I agree. No ban on the swastika.

What about hate speech?

What about campaign finance reform?

Obviously, I am not the only one.

[tx_dem41]

22. True....and I really was...

trying to be as polite in my post as possible, so I hope no offense was taken.

I say hate speech would have to be very narrowly interpreted to actual incitement of violence or conspiracy to intimidate.

As for campaign finance reform, as distasteful as I find it, I think campaign donations are a form of free speech. But, I'm willing to be swayed on that one. ;-)

[forgethell]

26. NO offense taken.

I'm actually pretty thick-skinned, as you have to be to avoid unwanted flame wars around here.

And I agree, except that I think campaign finance reform has been a disaster, both to America, and separate from that, to the Democratic party.

:toast:


:evilgrin:

[seriousstan]

36. The Hindu swastika went both ways

It was interchangable. There are several examples of both directions.

[NuttyFluffers]

37. sacred swastika usually held in square position

nazi swastika held in diamond, religious swastika held in square.

it's pretty easy to tell apart. that and the frequent use of opposite direction of nazi swastika. though both are used you see one far more often than another.

edit: blasted proofreading skills of mine...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Yes, the Asian swastika branches left while the Nazi swastika

branches right.

The Asian swastika is also used in Buddhism, and on Japanese maps, it's used to mark the locations of temples.

Furthermore, there's a Chinese Buddhist charity called the Red Swastika Society. It predates Nazism and was instrumental in helping the victims of the Nanjing Massacre in 1937-38.

[sweetheart]

10. they speak up that their religious symbol not be banned...

in europe by people who are ignorant that "swaztika" is actually
sanskrit, and a symbol of luck. I've seen plenty of swaztika's on
temples in india and had no ill feelings at all. The nazi thing will
be forgotten whenever the propagandists stop broadcasting all that
footage... as what good has it done to keep replaying all that shiite?

We now have fascists in power in the US, and thier pursuing the same
adgenda as the nazis, except they don't use swaztikas.... so we've
learned nothing except to transfer loathing on to a symbol rather
than what it stood for.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. I think the Swastika is an Indo-european symbol

of great antiquity. You'll find swastikas (both directions) carved on rocks across northern Europe as well as in India. I think maybe it was originally a sort of sun-mandala. If it hadn't been contaminated by the Nazis, I could see using it as a symbolic connection to my ancestry. As it is, though, I'll leave it alone. I have no wish to identify myself with Nazism, and no desire to keep explaining what I don't mean by displaying it.

[Blue Wally]

27. The Indo-Europeans

began as sun worshippers. The swastika in both the deosil and widdershins orientations was a symnbol of the power of the sun. Most of the now-lost pagan religions of Europe used some version of the swastika. As one the Indo-Europeans migrations moved into India and their religion evloved into Hinduism, the swastika became established there. Buddhism originated in india and also took the swastika as a potent symbol. The swastika was tehn adopted thoughout the Buddhist areas of religious influence in east and southeast Asia. I cannot tell you how the swastika moved into the Americas and was adoipted by the native Americans as a weaving motiff. The US Army 45th National Guard Division used the swastika as a shoulder patch (symboliszing its origin in OK-NM-CO). During the late thirties, they replaced the swastika with a thunderbird on their shoulder patch. The nazis adopted the swastika as a part of their "pure aryan" racial philosophy.

[ngant17]

42. commonly seen in Buddhist temples in E. Asia

Swatsika is commonly seen in Oriental Buddhist temples, it's been a sign of harmony and the balance of opposites, like the Chinese Yin-Yang.

Hitler and his silly Aryan philosophy got it twisted and distorted to an absurd degree.

[Astrochimp]

32. also found in Native American pots and rock carvings........

IIRC my symbolism, it is one of the oldest, and most widely spread, following only the spiral.

On a side note, I have a 1920's stone wear pitcher with swastikas on it, it was a 'good luck' thing, and also a post card, with one saying "good luck" that also has shamrocks.


David

[sweetheart]

33. here check this wikipedia link... its very thorough

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[theresistance]

35. There was a documentary on

National Geographic or Discovery recently where they were travelling through China and there were swastikas in peoples homes. They were said to bring "good luck". It is an ordinary ancient symbol that the Nazis thought looked good...

[Jack_DeLeon]

40. I agree with you completely.

people get so hung up on the symbols that they dont see the bigger picture.

[Taxloss]

14. I was under the impression

that the hindu swastika rotated the other way, and that this was the distinguishing factor. Feel free to correct me.

[tjdee]

16. You're right.

But still, it's a unique shape and most non-Hindus would not be able to tell the difference until someone said "hey , they go the other way and have been used for thousands of years besides".

[ZombieNixon]

21. Well, it was ours first...

yeah, I know that's the Kindergarten argument, but the Kindergarten bully doesn't use the purple marker for mass murder. Besides, there are some key differences between the Nazi swastika and the Hindu swastika. The Nazi swastika is rotatesd 45° and the arms sweep in the opposite direction.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. The reverse swastika

As found in Hinduism, it represents good fortune. Reversed, is an invocation of evil and black magic.

A German dentist named Krohn drew up the Nazi party emblem in 1920. His original design had the Hindu swastika. Hitler's one change was to reverse the swastika.

The reverse form of the swastika originated in Tibet, among the black orders of the Agarthi and Shamballah monks.

Nazi metaphysicians were obsessed with the Tibet, especially its darker occult traditions. (They believed Aryans settled Tibet after leaving the mythical "Thule.") Every year, from 1926 to 1942, the Nazis sponsored expeditions to Tibet.

[tjdee]

28. Aha, Hellboy makes a lot more sense.

Interesting that it's actually historical in a way.

[sweetheart]

31. That the nazi one was reversed is propaganda

I was just reading today, perhaps in the times (london), that the
reverse thing was a propaganda trick of the "allies" during ww2, and
that the nazi one was never reversed. I've never seen a reversed one
in tibet or india.

[tuvor]

34. Check out ManWoman's site

This artist has been trying to do the same for years!

www.manwoman.net and http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

(The links on the site don't work too well.)

[Jack_DeLeon]

39. Symbols are what we make of them...

I applaud people for trying to denazify the Swastika.

[tyedyeto]

41. I don't have an answer to the question you have posed but.......

I can recall watching Joseph Campbell on PBS several times where he brought up the myth of the swastika.

If I can recall, there are several civilizations who utilized that particular symbol in drawings, pottery, etc..... none of which had any particular 'evil' meaning as it did during the Hitler years.

IMHO, I doubt if society today can ever go beyond those times and return the symbol to what the original meaning was.