To the DU police officers:

[Bonobo]

Edited to be less inflamatory:

Many of us are here at DU because we do not like the status quo and though it is your job to enforce said status quo, we are not going to roll over as you try to peddle your justificatons for:

Tasering
Pepper Spraying
Beating unarmed children's heads against police vehicles
etc.

Please be aware that both sides (cops and citizens) have alot to overcome in terms of mutual distrust and dislike of each other in this country. But it is not this way everywhere. In Japan, for example, I breathe a sigh of relief when a police officer is near. But too many cops in this country get off on the power thing and just love to mind-rape people. Especially long-haired, dark, minority sort of people. Things do need to improve and I guess I'm just feeling angry today watching the weak protests. Part of that is due to fear on the part of the protesters. The police/SS have cameras and they WILL have your image. And you CAN expect a knock on the door or a long look into your taxes. So policemen and women. Be aware what's going on and chill with the attitudes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Don't call it brutality

Call it crowd control. Paramilitary policing is bullshit. I am glad I've made a career out of helping to sue cities, counties and states that pursue that practice.

[Trajan]

2. You have no right to lambaste DU police officers for anything ....

You have no evidence WHATSOEVER that any such DU members were involved with such acts ....

This thread is 'calling out', and is against Forum Rules ...

It is fallacious ..... and mean spirited ....

[Bonobo]

3. If so, alert me. But I feel like enough of these "Ask the cops" threads.

Also, I never ever said that anyone here participated in such actions, but simply that they have been "apologizing" for such actions. That is patently true and I call out no one.

[Ian David]

4. Hey, some of us might LIKE to be tasered!

To each their own, man.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. Bert likes tazering....

[Buddyblazon]

9. I myself like a nice warm mug of pepper spray....

"I TASTE BURNING!"

[democracyindanger]

10. Sometimes my salad needs pepper spray

[UdoKier]

14. I have to agree with Trajan.

While I dislike some of the dismissive attitudes of our "police officer" members when it comes to accusations related to police brutality, corruption and overkill at protests, it's unfair to imply that THEY are participating in those acts, when they've said no such thing.

Consistently dodging the issues and claiming that police officers have to keep the peace and don't ever have to make personal, subjective judgments, like staging a "blue flu" when called on to crush a peaceful demonstration at the FTAA, is a bit of a cop-out, IMO, but it's not the same as blanket CONDONING police state tactics.

This post is needlessly confrontational and unfairly paints ALL DU cops as bad, and I'm quite sure that they are not.

[Lerkfish]

19. Excellent post. thank you.

I"m not a cop, but insert several words instead of "cop" and there but for the grace of God go I.

I think its wrong to imply any DUers should be painted with the too large brush of the crimes of others.

[tx_dem41]

24. Thanks, UdoKier, for that post.

We have found ourselves on opposite sides on a few issues (even in this area), but I just want you to know....great post!

[diamond14]

54. they cover for each other, behind a BLUE WALL......refusing to out the

criminals in their own ranks....


every single cop in America should be ASHAMED at what those cops did at the bush* coronation....ASHAMED....and should call out and condemn those cops, who acted in such an UN-American way, toward non-violent Americans....to shield and coddle those cops sickens me....

[liberalnurse]

7. I agree......

It is unacceptable to attack a DU members profession for what others have done, not the DU'er.

That said, I like the Taser and pepper spray....I did not see the need to do a spray on the crowd but I believe the officer probably was given a direct order to do so.......There are proper channels to address this issue.

[SunDrop23]

27. Agree.

[Bunny]

5. So, did Skinner leave you in charge?

I didn't realize that you were now deciding what police officers were allowed to post here. I don't recall any of them saying that they were anything "more than any of us". Who in God's name is asking you to roll over for anything?

On edit: nice edit of your original post. :eyes:

[Jon8503]

6. What the hell is this all about anyway??????????????

[theboss]

11. Apparently, you don't mind police work

Since you are now Forum Cop.

[Deja Q]

12. Which post are you referring to?

It's a glib generalization to say all cops are bad, but who am I to say?

[theshadow]

13. Oh good.

Another cop hater disguised as a fighter for the masses. No, you don't hate all cops, just the ones that won't roll over for your all-knowing intellect. I just started my 29th year on the job and, not that I should have to prove my political credentials to you or anyone else, I'm a member of the ACLU and AI, and a frequent donor to DU.

And as a JEWISH cop, I REALLY take offense when you refer to the police as the "SS".

[liberalnurse]

15. Yes, that was a feel good reply.

Great ! :yourock:

[Chovexani]

17. Thanks for your public service

Some of us actually appreciate it. :hi:

[two gun sid]

20. I think the poster

was referring to the Secret Service.

[theshadow]

30. OK, that's different. n/t

[poe]

21. America is an authoritarian police state

a friend just returned from senegal and the town he stayed in had no police at all. disputes were handled by council. because we live in a capitalist property owning society we have guards and weapons. learn to share the bounty and the need for police disappears.

[Az]

23. Then change the nature of the state

Its still not the fault of the police.

[poe]

26. i'm trying believe me....

i'm trying every single day. but it is the fault of many,many of the police. some of them dig that billy club power and are brutal. some have tender hearts. the machine is rippin' at us all. but if the police would stop protecting these colossal bandits and start arresting the cheney's etc. then the doors would open wide for the goddesses/gods to shine on us all. the police always support the state they are an integral component without which the state would crumble and we'd be breaking bread together.

[American Tragedy]

29. You sound tragically naive.

I suspect your sweeping attitude toward law enforcement and secure private property might change if you really experienced how cruel, deceptive and dangerous many human beings can be. Try asking a fucking rapist if you can work out your dispute in council.

[poe]

32. sorry not tragically naive in the least-looking at the overall picture

no greater purveyor of violence on planet earth than US national security state. do the calculations. the police/military are invaluable assets in this pathological culture of conquest.

[tx_dem41]

33. Which has nothing to do with the example (Senegalian council) that..

you brought up. But, of course, you knew that already.

[poe]

40. My point is this

that to minimize the likelihood of violent acts you have to have an ethos. no amount of policing can minimize the likelihood of rape,murder, theft etc. the fact that we have police on every corner and the highest rate of violent crime suggests another solution. will violence be eliminated, never. but it can be greatly reduced. the way to do that is through community, not policing, the evidence is in front of our eyes. that is what the councils are all about. security cannot come from walls and border it comes from food and warmth and sharing and community and all that other corny stuff.

[tx_dem41]

42. Where do you live that you have police on every corner?

Mayberry? I live in Dallas, which has the highest murder rate per capita (among cities over 1 million population). I doubt we have more than 1 cop for every 10,000 corners.

I agree that improving community will have an effect on crime, but the role of police will always be vital. Your view of the world is pollyannish at best.

[poe]

47. it's a phrase silly now look to the Ladahki culture

read helena-norberg hodges classic ANCIENT FUTURES. not a Pollyanna there are other worlds than the western authoritarian mode in existence today. sad that you can't imagine the possibility. so don't imagine it go see it and feel it.

[tx_dem41]

48. As theShadow alluded to in another post....

....one cannot extrapolate the experiences of a small, homogeneous society to a heterogenenous society of almost 300,000,000 million people.


But, I gotta love the idealism behind someone that thinks that extrapolation can occur.

[poe]

51. is it not idealistic to think things can continue as they are

if you look at where the the few remaining pockets of biodiversity exist on earth they correspond exactly, no exceptions, to where the remaining pockets of indigenous people live. western culture has no rapport with sustainability. we would do well to listen to these people. western man does not know how to listen.

[alphadog]

36. You're kidding about Senegal, right?

From Amnesty International:
Tension continued to be high in the disputed region of Casamance despite two peace agreements signed in 2001. Several civilians were killed during military operations. Abuses against civilians by armed opposition forces continued throughout the year, particularly against people with “non-Casamance” names. Despite a long-standing government commitment to investigate past human rights violations, no inquiry was set up.

Canadian Center for International Research and Development Study:
Of 515 Senegalese women interviewed, 87% had experienced domestic violence.

UN: (http://www.crlp.org/pr_01_0810senegal.html)
Although the largest ethnic group in the country does not practice female genital mutilation and it is officially banned, the practice is still alive and well.

Yeah, sounds like a paradise on Earth. Perhaps it would be possible to reduce some of these problems if there were a POLICE FORCE.

Alphie

[Red State Rebel]

22. :)

The police have my eternal gratitude for doing a job that takes a lot of guts and a lot of heart.

[joefree1]

56. Thanks for your service

Here in LA I've had great experiences with LA police. Even when the kids in black try to start something.

The "cops" helped us out when we've had our protest. I've seen them neutralize the freepers that try to harass us more then a few times.

[Warpy]

16. A little thing called Posse Comitatus

enacted after the Civil War prevented the military from being used by the powers that be against the citizens. Although some rogue governors in the pockets of the robber barons used their state guard against people like striking miners and other laborers, the policy pretty much held.

So they've been busily militarizing the local police departments. They glorified this stuff in the 70s when the policy of turning police departments into paramilitary units to be used against citizens began through cop shows like S.W.A.T.

Officer Friendly isn't a civilian cop any more, pledged to serve and protect. He's been turned into part of a military unit, to serve the rich and protect them against the people.

A good discussion of the act and how it's been eroded over the past 25 years under imperial presidencies (and glaringly during the Waco standoff) can be found at http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

[theshadow]

34. I guess all that service to the decadent...

... capitalists means I won't have time to write some speeding tickets tomorrow. Darn!

[tx_dem41]

37. Hey "the shadow", can you do us a favor...

and tell us at what times you will be serving the decadent capitalists so we can know when its safe to speed through your burg? ;-)

[theshadow]

39. Sorry...

.... I have to find some decadent capitalists first!

[Az]

18. We The People define the status quo

We The People define the rules the police operate by.

[poe]

25. the police are here for one thing...

the great beat poet from cleveland, d.a. levy said it



the police are here for one reason
to protect the banks

[Sgent]

28. Every year about this time

I make my annual pilgrimage to New Orleans, for Mardi Gras -- going on 13 years now.

Every year, I am reminded that being an officer is not easy work, it is thankless, it is horrible hours, and it requires a lot of dedication. I am also reminded that on occassion a liberal attitude towards a show of force serves a purpose -- crowd control.

Is out and out police brutality justified? NO!!!

But to say that police dealing with a situation like the "protest" at the WTO summitt in Seattle can't use an overwhelming show of force to put down a riot is rediculous. No state in human history -- from communist to facist, can allow riots to go unchecked. If you advocate for the overthrow of the US government by violent means, you are a traitor, and neither I, nor most americans will have sympathy for such.

[poe]

31. there is no more violent organism on earth than the US government

the US is a culture of violence always has been. pull the blankets from your eyes the violence in Seattle drove up in white limousines. the wto, world bank, imf etc. are responsible for countless deaths per day. the police instigated and inflamed the situation in Seattle. were you there? throwing a few rocks through McD's is hardly violent, that's the problem with such threadbare analysis that equates property value with life value. it is truly a sick society that holds it's mcmansions dear while children starve. look at the totality of america it is a racist culture of conquest that destroys life. look at what is done to the natural world as part of your analysis. by the way 24,186 children under 5 will die today of hunger due to the policy's of said institutions. UN figures. look the beast in the mouth and call it as it is.

[theshadow]

38. Okay, let me see if I understand this.

In the past week, the small department that I work on has arrested (1) a man who beat his wife (2) a woman who tried assaulting a bar owner (3) a guy who sexually assaulted his girlfriend's little girl. We also handled several traffic accidents, monitored the traffic near the elementary school every morning and afternoon, assisted the rescue squad at many "trip and fall" calls because of the snow, and so on. As far as you're concerned these were just inconveniences that took us away from our REAL job of protecting the elite ruling class. Am I on the right track?

[tx_dem41]

41. Well, don't be so naive "the Shadow", surely your local...

Senegalian council could have handled these smaller crimes and left you time to serve the elite. ;)

[poe]

43. nope you are on the wrong track

look at the deep seated reasons for these acts. will violence be reduced to zero? no. but greatly reduced if we focus our energies on feeding people, housing, community arrangements that foster interdependence, secure, healthy, meaningful work etc. or we can keep doing it the way we are -highest rate of violent crime in the world. highest rate of incarceration in world. more weapons than the rest of the world combined. oh and we're killing (not you and me) children in Iraq and elsewhere in large numbers.

[tx_dem41]

44. But now you are trying to have it both ways.

If one is servicing the evil capitalists (and face it, we all are), aren't WE doing the killing too? You seem to feel that way about individual policemen on this forum. Why won't you extend that condemnation to you and I when discussing the killing in Iraq?

[poe]

49. i agree with your fundamental point however you and i

may have if given the choice decide to dramatically change our lifestyle which fuels much of this war and i for one have. i don't want to sound righteous but i'm trying to live below poverty and use as little energy as possible. somehow there is a difference between those who recognize their culpability and try to minimize their damage. i try to think of how much of the non-human's habitats do i destroy with my daily life and how much of the world am i colonizing? sorry if this sounds preachy not intended to.

[theshadow]

45. Poe, you seem like a nice person...

.... with high ideals but the fact is there are people out there who are just plain mean. They don't care about the rights or feelings of others. We can try to rehabilitate them... once they are locked away so they can't hurt anyone else, and that starts with getting them arrested. That isn't an American trait, it's true everywhere.

[poe]

50. yes there are mean and i would even say evil people

i'm not a utopian at all. putting creatures in cages isn't the answer. native americans (sic) refused to put creatures in pens and cages and on a tangent many whites when returned to their society after being held captive went back to the India (sic) culture. ben franklin and others remarked on this. no cases have been recorded where the opposite is true. we live in a fundamentally sick society and until we deal with the root cause the cycles of violence will continue. too much time lockin' em up too little effort lookin' at how we got there to begin with.

[bvar22]

35. The gap between "ruling class" and "cheap labor" widens,

I wonder if the guys in the cool black storm trooper suits know that they ARE NOT INVITED to the party?

[theshadow]

46. And your point is what? n/t

[TryingToWarnYou]

52. There is no point..

some of these folks will equate police with nazis no matter what. Of course, as soon as they need us, they dont hesitate to pick up the phone and have us make their location.

[bvar22]

55. You missed it entirely,

of course, the capacity for basic abstraction is required.

For the simple folk:
The point is that the interests of the police and the military personnel are the same as the people in the streets, and not the ruling elite they are shedding their blood to protect.

The men and women in the storm trooper suits are NOT invited to share in the loot!

If you can't see the similarity in the uniforms, and the tactics of suppression employed by our new security cops, you are not paying attention.

As a concession, they (the American SS) haven't started using REAL bullets to suppress the hungry, jobless, and disenfranchised...yet.
You should read up on the Police suppression of the union parade at the Miami FTA meeting in 2003. $8million of money appropriated for the War on Terrorism was used to fund the protection of 34 very wealthy corporatists who were meeting to divide the Global spoils.

If Miami doesn't open your eyes, check L.A. last year, or Seattle in 2000.

This is not the same America I grew up in. The Patriot Act, the trumped up War on Terror, and the Corporate Owned Media have teamed up to literally change the rules.
"If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists."

I am not with them. I am not with the terrorists.
I AM with the American Patriots.

[TryingToWarnYou]

53. Less inflamatory? Geez..

Many of us are here at DU because we do not like the status quo and though it is your job to enforce said status quo, we are not going to roll over as you try to peddle your justificatons for:

Tasering
Pepper Spraying
Beating unarmed children's heads against police vehicles
etc.

Justifications? No such thing. You should understand the part that less than lethal force plays in the situations you are complaining about. Would you rather the officers have no options other than a gun to resolve a situation?

As for beating childrens heads against police vehicles, please provide me a reputable link for that.

The police/SS have cameras and they WILL have your image. And you CAN expect a knock on the door or a long look into your taxes. So policemen and women. Be aware what's going on and chill with the attitudes.

I recommend you do the same.