Are you proud of our troops?

[lebkuchen]

The 1ID is returning from Iraq, and the bases are covered in yellow ribbons and posted signs saying, "We're proud of you."

The division has lost between 60 - 70 soldiers with many casualties. They come back pretty beat up.

The Iraqi people are beat up, too.

Should we be proud of the 1ID's accomplishments?

[underpants]

1. Yes- "General don't win wars but they can lose them"

-Wesley Clark on CNN before the war.

In this particular case Rummy is running this war and micromanaging the hell out of it so the Generals (who a vast majority of were against this war especially in this way) are out of the loop.

Of course I support the troops. Yes, bad things happen and they should be prosecuted if they are caught (especially if caught on camera). I support them.

[regnaD kciN]

39. Just to play Devil's Advocate...

...you mention that "they should be prosecuted if they are caught." I assume that you are thinking of the prison abuses, etc.

But what about the horrible things that troops do systematically? Well over 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the war -- not, generally, by individual troops violating the rules of combat, but by bombs that indiscriminately "take out" anyone in the vicinity, automatic weapons fire directed blindly at where an enemy might be, and so on. These are not "atrocities" in the sense of aberrations, but part of the very nature of the sort of "shock and awe" warfare we conducted in Iraq.

One may claim that such "collateral damage" is justified by the overall good of a military campaign's goals. But what of a case like this one, where everyone but Bush and his PNAC cronies knew full well that there was no cause for war? Is a general who opposes the war as pointless, but still orders attacks on targets that guarantee large numbers of civilian deaths, culpable or blameless? What about the soldier who presses the button to launch the missle that will incinerate everyone in a square block, not knowing or caring just who will be the victims? Should the Iraqi who lost his wife and children in a bombing raid forgive those who flew the bomber and released its payload, because they themselves weren't the ones who ordered the attack, merely carried it out?

Some sixty years ago, trials were held in Germany in which the U.S. and its allies established the principle, before the eyes of the world, that "I was only following orders" was not a sufficient defense. Does it suddenly become so, now that it's our troops who are figuratively "in the dock?"

I don't have an easy answer for this. I certainly don't accuse all of the U.S. forces of war crimes, much as those few war protesters forty years ago did when they called returning Vietnam vets "baby killers." But, from my memories of coverage of the initial stage of the war, when it looked like a "cakewalk" for the U.S., it seemed to me that there were many among our forces who viewed the war as one big video game, where they could casually and indiscriminately blow away the "ragheads" and "camel-jockeys," not knowing or caring if they were combatants or civilians, with no more conscience than one would blowing away an enemy in Doom 3, secure in the faith that they themselves were in no more danger than a gamer at his computer console. Does the "Support Our Troops" mantra mean that we have to be "proud" of those who killed dozens or hundreds of noncombatants in that way?

[dutchdoctor]

64. completely agree with your arguments, but for one little fact..

You say the civilian casualty number is well over 10,000.
In fact it's ten times as high, a study in the lancet estimates the number of casualties to be 100,000
Just so nobody underestimates the tragedy that is going on there right now.

[DS1]

66. Right, but I think the poster was trying to separate the 100,000 total

killed by bombings and "Oops, our Satbomb was programmed for the wrong house number and the initial invasion" from "It's coming right for us! Blow them away!" incidents where soldiers deliberately shot indiscriminantly into houses, cars, stores, markets, etc. In other words, the 10,000 had a more personal touch, if that made any sense.

[dutchdoctor]

69. I understand..,

and I should have considered that in my reply.
I am not sure however that the Iraqis see it that way... The problem is that 100,000 dead people have even more mourning relatives, and you can be pretty sure that even if these people did not die as the direct result of American fire, their loved ones will still blame it on the war hold a lifelong grudge against the U.S.
* was right! Iraq IS a breeding ground for terrorists! Too bad it wasn't true when he said it..

[UL_Approved]

2. I'll be proud, but more sorry.

The people who go over there get used. Pure and simple. They are cannon fodder, and they get placed into very bad situations.

The killings they do are a consequence of war. I will NEVER expect our troops to go over there with the intent of racking up kills. That happens as a result of combat situations. And most of the guys don't like it anyway.

The killings that we see like the Iraqi family killed show how rough and messy war can get. THAT IS WHY LIBERALS, PROGRESSIVES, DEMOCRATS, ETC., ONLY GO TO WAR WHEN WE HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE.

[izzie]

3. So much for kids and general who do not know what they are doing.

Awful place to put these men in to with out telling them something about these countries and the people who live their. You just can not treat them like they live in middle America.

[sleipnir]

4. Pride is a hard issue to qualify.

I'm proud of our men and women who serve, but I'm not proud of the mission. Therefore, for me the two negate each other and I'm stuck with a currently neutral feeling. I'm not necessarily proud, but nor am I ashamed. I truly do feel neutral towards the Iraq War troops.

[ArkDem]

5. Forgive them, they know not what they do...

[hector459]

20. That's more like it.

i could never be proud of our troops in Iraq or Viet Nam for that matter. I felt sorry for them, but not proud of them.

[DistantWind88]

6. Why not?

Unless you'd rather tell your hubby, "I'm so ashamed of what you did in Iraq."

[gWbush is Mabus]

7. I'm not proud of them

I'm ashamed of their torturing and murdering of civillians.

[DistantWind88]

9. I'm proud of the ones who have helped

The ones who have rendered aid to civilians, the ones who have helped build schools and got hospitals running, etc. Not ALL our troops tortured or murded anyone.

[thebigidea]

55. enough with the schools and hospitals bullshit

if that's true, how come even fox freakin news can't actually get a fucking camera into a SINGLE one of these splendid new schools or hospitals?

oh yeah, that's because the ROADS to those blessed places are NIGHTMARISH DEATHTRAPS.

Bechtel can take its corrupt contracts for never-finished reconstruction projects and shove them up George Schulz's ass.

[Ms. Clio]

71. I am so sickened by the reconstruction propaganda--it's utterly false

Everything in Iraq is set against the backdrop of shattered infrastructure and a nearly complete lack of reconstruction. What the Americans turn out to be best at is, once again, promises -- and propaganda. During the period when the Coalition Provisional Authority ruled Iraq from Baghdad's Green Zone, their handouts often read like this one released on May 21, 2004: "The Coalition Provisional Authority has recently given out hundreds of soccer balls to Iraqi children in Ramadi, Kerbala, and Hilla. Iraqi women from Hilla sewed the soccer balls, which are emblazoned with the phrase ‘All of Us Participate in a New Iraq.'"

And yet when it came to the basics of that New Iraq, unemployment was at 50% and increasing, better areas of Baghdad averaged 6 hours of electricity per day, and security was nowhere to be found. Even as far back as January, 2004, before the security situation had brought most reconstruction projects to the nearly complete standstill of the present moment, and 9 months after the war in Iraq had officially ended, the situation already verged on the catastrophic. For instance, lack of potable water was the norm throughout most of central and southern Iraq.


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0107-34.htm

[Avalux]

8. I feel sorry for them - a great sadness

they do what they are told to do; they have to believe what they're doing is justified even if it isn't because they don't have a choice. I don't think pride is an emotion I can equate with seeing them come home.

[seabeyond]

10. i am sad for my troops

my babies, being a mother of two boys, fellow sons and dads and brothers and friends. i am so sad for them. for all of them. for those tripping on this war, for those battling "evil" for those whose souls are being beat up. it is ugly. and i am sad for all of them. even that disgusting picture of thumbs up for torture

[Stirk]

11. I don't think proud is the word. I feel bad for them.

Most join the military out of economic necessity. Either there's no work at home, or they want the GI Bill.

So I see alot of people who were caught in the gears of an unjust machine, sent to kill other people and make money for corporate fat cats. And while they were away, the lives of their friends and families are being attacked by the same men who sent them to war. Social Security, education, healthcare, you name it.

When I was a kid I liked to read books about medieval history. I would always ask my dad why the peasants would fight for their local Lord, when that Lord was not their friend. They'd be expended as fodder in large conflicts, and surely some of them knew it. My dad didn't have an answer for me back then, but I think that now I know why.

[AG78]

12. Expendable numbers

in an empire's war for the globe.

Proud? Not really proud.

Joyful? Certainly not.

Sad? That they're treated as expendable numbers, absolutely.

Same goes for the people that die as a result of our smart weapons.

It's a giant mess. Then again, so is humanity as a whole.

[Squatch]

13. EXTREMELY grateful for their service

They have a long history of distinguished service to this country. The "Big Red One" is a unit that we can be proud of.

[leesa]

14. Not proud, sorry for most of them. Some I despise because they LOVE

blasting Iraqis for no reason. Frankly, some of them should be in jail for life....they are simply paid sadists.

[Jackie97]

15. Well....

I was proud of them when I learned of their work during the tsunami crisis. They're not just going to war you know.

I'm proud that most of them hopefully do their job ethically (don't deliberately kill civilians, etc).

I'm proud of those who blew the whistle on those committing war crimes.

However, I'm also proud of those who chose to either flee the country or go to jail as oppose to going to war. I don't hate the troops. I like a lot of them. Heck, I went to school with a lot of them. That doesn't change my feelings about the war. The war is wrong, and I want them the heck home.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Cannon fodder and killers doing what they're told to do.

Proud of them? Hardly.

[DrWeird]

17. I'm proud of the 5,500 who have chosen not to go to Iraq.

God bless them.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. Yes I am proud of them and support their decision not to be a part

of the killing of innocent Iraqis. The rest, not so much.

[UdoKier]

18. Neither proud nor ashamed.

I admire the blind patriotism that motivates some of them, but I disapprove of the willful ignorance that creates that blind faith in Bush. I would be VERY proud of our troops if 90% of them had stood down and claimed conscientious objector status before the Iraq atrocity began. That would have shut the whole BS down.

And don't tell me it could never happen. Military have turned against hopelessly corrupt civilian governments MANY TIMES.

[BillZBubb]

19. Not proud. I appreciate their idealism in serving the country.

But I don't appreciate the immoral and disastrous mission they have been forced (although most probably agreed with it) to undertake. There is nothing to be proud about when tens of thousands of innocents have died for the lies of one criminal administration.

I wish our troops were less susceptable to propaganda.

[lebkuchen]

21. I was proud of the allied coalition

as each country marched passed, their air forces performing fly-bys at Arromanche last June to commemorate the 60th Anniversary of the
D-Day landing. I went to Normandy that same month to commemorate their bravery.

The pride the allied troops showed on that day will never be matched by the slipshod, pseudo-military paste-up coalition of Bush and Powell's. Should Bush's original coalition ever do a flyby and parade march somewhere in Iraq in 2023, through Fallujah, perhaps, my pride won't rise above their own.

[MrSlayer]

22. Sure. I just don't agree with their mission.

It's a great thing to serve your country, it's damn shame when the country doesn't respect that service by throwing the troops into an illegal situation that gets them killed for lies.

[Javaman]

23. No, they are nothing more than a tool. If anything I feel sorry...

For their families having go through their bullshit deployment in morons war.

[NervousRex]

24. No

If a hit-man murders someone, they go after both the hit-man and the client. They are both guilty of a crime.

[Caria]

25. Many are DEMS

Please remember that many of the people who are in Iraq did not vote for *, did not support the war, and did not go voluntarily. The adults who are being called back from inactive duty are no longer the naive kids they were when they signed up so many years ago.

My friend's husband has been called up. I think he was already on "inactive" status by the time * started claiming Iraq was a threat. My friend and her husband have consistently opposed * & his policies, especially the war in Iraq. But that's where he's headed (unless he's going to "shock and awe" Iran). They have 2 very young kids, a mortgage based on both of their salaries. I am so scared for all of them.

[Trajan]

73. Most of us agree with you on this ....

The right love to paint liberals as 'anti-military' .... it is a false claim ...

Most liberals, being educated in history, recognize the need of a defensive military capable of defending a nation from attack ... Even the great progressives democrats recognized this, and have acted when and IF necessary to mobilize military force against external threats ...

The problem ISNT the military; it is the civilian leadership ... it is the White House that promotes the Rumsfeld's, Cheney's, Perle's, Wolfowitz's and Feith's of the world to positions of leadership .... THEIR philosophies do NOT stand with the traditional 'conservative' mores of centuries past .... They are militaristic extremists bent on world dominion through offensive military prowess ...

We cannot blame the soldiers for governmental policy ....

[leftchick]

26. I am not proud for their slaughter BUT....

I do forgive them. They have been put in an untenable situation by this murderous administration. They are killing for what?? Freedom... No! Democracy?.. No! They have no clue why they are there. Extremely heartbreakingly SAD.

[leesa]

27. No. I mainly feel sorry for them. They have no choice.

That said, I despise the ones who turn their brains off and support the killing of people without cause and those who LOVE to kill. Those are the lesser number by far, but don't pretend they don't exist.

[geniph]

28. Some of 'em, sure

others are just doing their jobs, and don't particularly want to be there any more than we want them there. I'm just sorry our idiot government saw fit to put them in that situation.

This new meme that every single one is a hero is nonsense, though. As a REAL hero, Congressional Medal of Honor winner Senator Daniel Inouye put it, he was a lot prouder of the one he had to work for - the good conduct medal.

[seito]

29. I am proud of them

They did not choose the conflict, they chose to serve. The majority of them served honorably. The majority of them, I would assume, did not want to go to Iraq.

I fear the mentality of blaming the troops for the crimes of their leaders. Keep the focus where it belongs.

[mike_c]

59. "the majority of them served honorably"

Where is the honor in what America has done-- what they have done-- in Iraq? To "honorably" serve in the commission of a crime is at best being a "good German", an accomplice to war of aggression, and at worst a war criminal. The blood of thousands of innocents is on their hands. What is honorable about that? Service alone is not honorable. Service in the name of an honorable cause merits pride, but service in a dishonorable cause is shameful.

[Piperay]

31. My BF's nephew is being sent back there next month

and my best friend's son is their now...I feel very sorry for them. :-(

EDIT: wanted to add that BOTH these young men are Democrats and hate the chimp regime.

[dvaravati]

32. no

Im proud of the guy refusing to go back to Iraq.

[journalist3072]

33. Our Troops

In general, I have respect for anyone who is willing to volunteer to put their life on the line for their country.

And I believe that the majority of our troops serve with honor. Even when they don't agree with all of the missions they are sent on, I believe they try to carry out their duties with honor.

However, there are some bad apples in the bunch. My heart really ached when I saw Farenheit 911, and that one troop in Iraq who said he played that "burn sucker burn" song to get himself pumped up. He seemed really ignorant and immature.

And needless to say, I'm disappointed in those who carried out the atrocities at Abu Gharib. I don't believe that they should be the only ones taking the fall though; I think they were carrying out the orders of higher ups. But I think they should have taken a principled stand and refused those orders.

[Pastiche423]

34. No

Absolutely not.

[Karenina]

35. I am patiently waiting

for them to get a CLUE and realize they and their Iraqi victims are being abominably ABUSED by SCUM who mean NO ONE GOOD. When they pack their bags, DEMAND TRANSPORT OUTTA THAT HELLHOLE the Überreich have USED them to create and leave their weapons on the tarmac as they wave goodbye, I will be PROUD of them.

[Generic Other]

36. I pity them

their epiphanies. They will have them in VA hospitals. In psych wards. County jails. Rehab centers. And in lonely moments when they hurt the people they love the most.

[annabanana]

50. my views also Generic Other...

I fear their battles are just beginning. There is a world of sadness coming down that street.

I know the cynical, blood thirsty war-mongers who sent them will burn in hell.

[superconnected]

37. the few people I know fighting, joined voluntarily after the war started

because they wanted to be part of it.

family of friends, not my friends personally...

I'm torn. I figure there are a few who don't want to be there that are victims. But, there are a lot more who say they don't want to be there but want to fight iraq and claim it's fighting terrorism to keep us safe, etc. Perhaps I only meet those ones' parents.

Also, in 10 & 20 years they're going to run for political office with this on their resume' and expect us to be proud of them. That bugs the heck out of me.

How could I look at one and not think..."are you a murderer?"

[Selatius]

38. There is no pride in war, nothing to be proud of

What the proper term should be is respect, not pride. Pride can come to a person especially if it isn't justified, but respect is something one has to earn.

[Vidar]

40. Sad and sympathetic, but not proud.

[Solly Mack]

41. I'm happy that many survived Shrub's war (so far, that is)

I'm relieved that some maintained their humanity, dignity, integrity and honor. I'm horrified at what some went through and what they witnessed.
But proud of the work they did? I dunno...I wouldn't call it pride.

I'm thoroughly appalled at what America did (still doing) to Iraq and her people.

So many emotions inside me...but pride at a soldiers job in Iraq isn't one of them.

Maybe proud of individual soldiers? (who didn't give in to the stupidity and behave like animals)

hmmmm...No. I'm not proud of the "job" they did.

We shouldn't have been over there to begin with...

I'm not proud of their chain of command either.

My husband is a soldier who served in Iraq so spare me any lectures. Thanks! :)

[RetroLounge]

42. They are just doing their jobs

RL

[alarimer]

43. No- I feel sorry for them

They have all been duped into becoming cannon fodder.

[Jim__]

44. No. I sympathize with them.

But, I reserve my respect for the one's that refuse to go.

The war is wrong. I think in the situation that the troops are in most of us would do what they are doing, namely, following orders. But, I also believe that anyone going to war has an obligation to believe that the war is just. I don't know how anyone can believe that this war is just.

They have my sympathy because they are in an extremely difficult situation. I believe most of these troops signed up to defend America. They trust that America will only use them for just causes. Bush has abused that trust.

But, I still believe they have an obligation to refuse to kill people unjustly. I have tremendous respect for the soldiers who refuse to go. That takes tremendous courage.

[neebob]

45. No

and I'm not going to participate in the collective rationalizing and equivocating that enabled this shit to begin and allows it to continue. It's wrong, regardless of what the individual participants believe or how they got there or what they do or how I feel about them. It's just completely wrong, and it would stop if more people would stick their necks out and say so.

[ezekiel333]

53. Very well said, Thank You! n/t

[tinonedown]

46. Agree with most here - not proud

Sympathetic, sad are words that come to mind instead of proud.

[Guy Fawkes]

47. I, personaly, am proud and grateful for the service men

and women of our country. I may not agree with the war, but they may not , either. I don't think any less of them for doing the job that they are paid to do.

[spanone]

48. I'm proud they did their doody. I'm ashamed we sent them.

I find it hard to fault the soldiers, they are pawns in the game.
edit: I'm not proud that many of these persons will be fucked up psychologically and/or physically for the rests of their lives.

[confuddled]

49. I am proud of Sgt. Kevin Benderman who has said "No!"

who,facing a second deployment to Iraq and being fully cognizant of the wrongness of it all, is seeking conscientious objector status and looking at prosecution as a deserter. See:

http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/6340/1/248
http://www.indiemediamagazine.com/article.php?story=20050118053049807

[Hello_Kitty]

51. I don't know about proud but I certainly have more respect for them

Than for the war-hungry chickenhawk Republicans who are happy to send them off to kill and/or die while they are safe in the suburbs with "Support our Troops" ribbons on their vehicles. It it came down to them or their kids having to go over there and fight they would just demand that the President "nuke" the whole Middle East. As long as it's poor and minority kids over there they are fine with a long, protracted ground war quagmire.

[Cooley Hurd]

52. No pride in the mission - the soldiers themselves were put in...

...a horrible situation. Could you imagine being in their shoes? Christ, it was an Iraq war vet who killed the girl in the Wal-Mart parking lot the other day - a Marine home due to a drug (marijuana) infraction. Obviously, he snapped...

I'm glad they're coming home. Now, if they could only stay home...:(

[Geek_Girl]

54. I'm Ashamed of the American people

I'm ashamed of my government and I'm ashamed of my country for sending our armed forces to fight an unjust, immoral war.

But I can not be ashamed of young men and women who volunteer to serve in the armed forces and who do their duty when called. They are doing their jobs and sacrificing their own lives. I have nothing but pride for our armed forces.

No matter what your view of the war you should always support the young people who serve the military. Because they are only doing what "We The People" sent them to do.

[liveoaktx]

56. I don't agree, with a qualification. Those who join the military choose

to do so. They aren't conscripted but choose to sign a contract, knowing full well that killing others is a part of that agreement. If they were only for helping others, they could choose to join a humanitarian organization. I have slightly more sympathy for the National Guardsmen, who joined thinking they would actually be defending this country or helping in times of disaster.... HERE. But they also made a choice knowing full well that their participation in the military has risks of real service, not just one weekend a month (oh, except for Bush, of course).

[Coventina]

57. Nope....not proud.

Other posters on this thread have already expressed exactly how I feel.

[mike_c]

58. no pride-- we should be ashamed of what they've done...

...in our names, not proud of them. They've served as thugs and enforcers for a corrupt foreign policy. They've helped shatter a country already brought to it's knees by ten years of draconian sanctions and an invasion premised upon bald-faced lies. The've participated in a war of aggression that mocks international law. They've murdered untold numbers of innocent civilians. Their occupation has created an insurgency that threatens to consume Iraq in civil war, and causes the deaths of additional innocents. They have destroyed homes and lives for no good purpose whatsoever.

I am deeply ashamed of them. There is nothing noble about what they've done in Iraq. They have not served or defended us-- they served fascism.

To those who inevitably argue that they had no choice but to commit these crimes, consider that this circumstance neither exonerates them under law, nor makes their actions admirable. Only blind alliegence-- the act of being a "good German"-- can raise pride in what they've done in Iraq.

[Raskolnik]

60. You don't really get it, do you?

These soldiers didn't wake up one morning and decide to go invade Iraq. The government WE put in place ordered them to do it, which means WE ordered them to do it.

WE failed THEM, and you have the gall to place blame and scorn on the Americans that have borne the greatest cost for our failure. Shame on you.

If you want to live in a society where the military decides on a case by case basis what policies to follow, there are plenty of military dictatorships in the world. I'll take civilian control (and thus, responsibility) for military actions any day.

[mike_c]

62. speak for yourself....

If they act with my authority, they do so without my consent. We already live in a society where laws and treaties prohibit what the military is doing in Iraq. They're doing it anyway. That makes them criminals, IMO.

I don't want an America whose military is without conscience, nothing more than a deadly tool to be used by corrupt politicians.

[Raskolnik]

63. Once again, you don't seem to get it.

They act with ALL our authority because they are acting under the orders of the government WE put in place. If you don't want to face up to your responsibility, fine. But don't blame the people that get their asses shot at because of our mistakes. That's weak, and will keep the Democrats out of power indefinitely.

Tell me, do you honestly want to live in a society where the military authority supercedes civilian control? I sure as hell don't.

[Raskolnik]

61. I'm ashamed of US for putting them in this position.

[alexisfree]

65. ....

[Trajan]

67. I support the 'troops' ...

who, idealistically, are 'serving their country' with honor .....

Their civilian leadership and suppliant generals, on the other hand, are amoral, and are misusing the military services to satisfy whatever base urges motivate their needs .... This is NOT about 'protecting america' ... it is about 'protecting Israel from having to come to political consensus with muslim neighbors ' ...

It is not the soldiers fault they are being used like this ...

I am liberal, I am a proud american, I despise what George Bush and His party are doing to america, and I support our troops ....

That being said: EVERY soldier has the obligation to refuse illegal orders .... and every one should if the situation arises ...

[gizmo1979]

68. I wish they'd complain alittle louder W likes that.

All in all they have done the best with what they have.They need to scream bloody murder when they think something is wrong though,other wise the American people think everything is great over there.And we know it's not!!!!!!!!!!

[pdxmom]

70. I'm very proud of our troops. n/t

[rocktop15]

72. no--i dont support the troops.

Everyone should read Robert Jensen's book Citizens of the Empire. He talks about this at length. I don't want the troops to die, but I don't support their cause. I find this war to be immoral, illegal, and unwise.