So let's talk about owning stock

[WilliamPitt]

Posted May 3, 2000

Gore's Oil Money
by Ken Silverstein

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20000522&s=silverstein

One of the world's hottest battles between indigenous groups and multinational oil companies is heating up in Colombia, where Occidental Petroleum is seeking to drill on land claimed by the 5,000-member U'wa tribe. Early this year, the Colombian government deployed several hundred soldiers to guard workers building a road to the multibillion-dollar project. That led to a clash in February when security forces used tear gas to break up an anti-Occidental demonstration of several hundred Indians. Three children reportedly drowned when they fell into a river as they fled from government troops. The U'was won at least a temporary victory on March 31, when a Colombian court ordered the government to stop Occidental from drilling on tribal land.

Meanwhile, an international campaign opposing Occidental's plan is also picking up steam. On April 28 about 100 demonstrators turned up at Occidental's annual meeting in Santa Monica and called on the company to halt the project. Activists have also picketed the offices of Fidelity Investments, which owns about 8 percent of Occidental's shares, and criticized Vice President Al Gore, whose family owns at least a quarter of a million dollars' worth of Occidental stock.

...more...

So Gore is an evil, evil man.

=========

Howard Dean, from the Center for Public Integrity:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=8

You'll see, among other things, stock in General Electric if you click on 'Income Detail Records.'

GE owns NBC, MSNBC and CNBC. They are among the largest defense contractors in the world. They got well paid by the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the general over-bloating of the DoD. Dean's stock, in turn, has also likely done well by this.

So Dean is an evil, evil man.

===========

John Edwards owns Bristol-Myers Squibb stock, and Diebold stock, and Exxon Mobil stock, and Texaco stock, and AOL stock, and Wal-Mart stock:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=9

Evil man.

===========

Bob Graham owns Bristol-Myers Squibb stock, and General Electric stock, and Lockheed Martin stock:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDIDATE&CID=3

Evil man.

==========

[Patriot_Spear]

1. Okay, Okay Kerry ISN'T Satan- can we go back to Bush* now?

...Please?


(Was that better?)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. What about Kucinich?

I wonder if he owns any tainted stock?

[WilliamPitt]

3. Dennis is not an evil man

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/bop2004/default.aspx?SECTION=CANDDET&CID=10#income

[Rainbowreflect]

14. Thank you Will,

I knew that Dennis was the only Good one in the race. ;-)

[dweller]

54. That's it?

well, damn, double

:kick:
:kick:

dp

[twilight]

55. kick for Cong. Kucinich ... the ONLY honest candidate!

Good news for a good man hot off the campaign trail here!

Fellow Kucitizens,

Brian Willson reports that the NEWSDAY readers' poll shows Dennis with 52% over Dean's 35% out of 12,000 votes. Good news!!

==========================

Only the good prevail. The truth will set you free!

Go DK! The good is on YOUR side! :D

:kick:

[Patriot_Spear]

4. Oh Christ...

*sigh* well, I tried...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. Dupe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=298628

[WilliamPitt]

6. Not a dupe

You posted two half-sentences. I posted hard data.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. Could have posted it in that thread.

If your ego allowed for it.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Didn't see your thread

I tend to skate over them. I enjoy substance. If you need a refresher on 'substance,' see main post above compared to yours.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. That answers the Ego question.

[WilliamPitt]

17. You're welcome

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Don't mention it.

The depth and "substance" of cut-and-paste is beyond a mere mortal such as myself. I bow down to thee.

[WilliamPitt]

38. Good

Bring your kneepads. You'll be down there a while.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. Dibs on last word!

In an attempt to end this childish exchange, let me return to the question at hand.


Are stocks evil, in and of themselves? No. But each voter should be aware of the possible conflicts of interest that may arise when legislation concerning those holdings comes to the floor of Congress. Let's take the candidates that we support as an example. On the Public Integrity Center site that we are both using as reference, it shows that Dean is vested in 30+ stocks. Am I going to keep an eye on any legislation that may have an effect on the value of those holdings? You bet. Am I going to take an interest in Dean's support or non-support of that legislation? You bet. Kerry is vested in 550+ interests. Same goes for him. Now, when making a decision on two quality candidates, will the fact that one guy has $4M invested in 30+ different companies and the other guy has $400M invested in 550+ companies make an impact on my voting preference? It'll have some weight.


No hard feelings here. I think that this issue deserves to be looked at seriously and not be tossed out on the basis of partisan support. All information should be looked at and accepted or discarded on its intrinsic merits. Our country and our politics is run by money. Always follow the money.

Peace :hippie:

[TheYellowDog]

53. LMAO!

n/t

[Clete]

7. Well, I own IBM.

So I guess I'm evil too.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Halliburton.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. They should recuse themselves on any vote that may

effect the value of those stocks. Not evil. Just interested parties. Are they too interested, is the question. Fair game for discussion.

[GOPisEvil]

13. Bloody Hell - I'm evil!!!

First off, Citibank manages my 401(k). Evil!

I'm in an index fund; a regular litany of evil. I also am in an International Fund - investing in FOREIGN COMPANIES. Damn, I am the devil himself.

Why don't we focus on why my 401(k) keeps losing money, instead of focusing on ideological purity, which doesn't exist?

[unfrigginreal]

16. So, better if candidates own stocks or better if they don't?

What do you think? Is it possible that stock owners could be influenced by that fact?

Would it really hurt the country if we forced a no stock ownership on political candidates for Congress or President?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. I drive an automobile. I invest in oil companies. I have a computer

I am helping Microsoft control the world. I pay me electric bill. I am an Enron shill. If I weren't so hypocritical, I'd live under a tree and dig a hole and bury my shit.

I am still interested in the airline pilot that posted that thread explaining to me how American Airlines union employees are not hypocritical since they are co-owners in the company. after all, based on his logic, every time an american airlines employee gets laid off, it's their co-workers fault.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil

[unfrigginreal]

27. And your point is?...

Are we victims of our own capitalistic success?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Exactly. The charge that investing is hypocritical is crap.

One cannot possibly be a living breathing human being and not be investing in our own demise.

That is part of what it is to be alive in America. A person who has no choice but to live in a slum enriches a slum lord every time they pay their rent. Is that hypocritical?

[MadHound]

34. You can invest wisely, profitably, and with a clean conscience

There are several "white hat" mutual funds and investment oppurtunities out there that don't require selling your soul to make a profit. Working For Change is one of many like this. And the funny thing is that while most of these do as well as your typical mutual fund or investment, while the others are going down the tubes, the "white hats" keep on earning. Granted, your company 401k plan might now allow you to invest in such "radical" plans, but if you are investing your own money, give "white hats" a chance, I think you will be pleasantly suprised.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. I already do. That isn't really the point.

[unfrigginreal]

35. You're way to smart for me...I didn't even understand your response.

Are you saying that it's better to be a slum lord?

[blm]

19. No wonder Tweety pumps up Dean.

He's a company man.

No wonder Dean won't cut the defense budget.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Based on some DUers logic, I couldn't get elected dogcatcher!

See my thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=172708

Clete, I forgot-I own IBM and MSFT stock. So I guess I have no tight to have an opinion on anything!

[Walt Starr]

22. I generally own stock funds

Which means I own a little bit of stock in a whole bunch 'o companies.

I guess I'm evil too.

Unfortunately, stock ownership was used to pound NAder over the head too, so it becomes fair game.

[electricmonk]

23. Anybody read this book?

Is Maximizing Returns to Shareholders a Legitimate Mandate? by Marjorie Kelly. I've been meaning to get it for awhile but never seem to get around to it.

A papragraph from the Amazon description:

In this provocative new publication, Marjorie Kelly, founder and publisher of Business Ethics magazine, argues that modern business’s focus on maximizing shareholder return is fundamentally flawed. Corporations favor stockholders when there’s no rational reason to do so. The overwhelming majority of stock purchases contribute nothing to the corporation’s top or bottom line, nor do shareholders contribute anything else. And corporate obsession with shareholder return often comes at the expense of concerns about employee or community welfare.

[JanMichael]

24. Hey, you know what? They help maintain these filthy corps...

...they help them expand, they help them exploit, so sure, they become responsible once they know the facts.

Maybe a little research and integrity in investments would be advised?

Maybe? Huh? Just a little?

Is it too much to ask that people take a little responsibility for their "investments"?

[piece sine]

32. I'm responsible for my investments...

bought some Dell and lost a lot of my savings... bought some Intel and lost even more! Bought some Cisco and really got clobbered. I may not be politically incorrect but I'm tapped-out and holding my breath I don't lose my job.

[VermontDem2004]

25. I know someone who works for a subsidarie of Lookheed Martin

which would be considered evil here, because they the company this person works for is directly connected to the Carlyle Group as well as Lookheed Martin. But they treat their employees well and pay good wages.

[MuseRider]

26. Damn it is getting difficult

to stay clean and pure these days. After Enron, Global Crossing and all the others like them managed to get rid of fully half of our retirement fund we sat down and tried to rid ourselves of all stocks that were not involved with the Evvvviil things. I try to shop to avoid sweat shop goods and as I read the report about Coke I found myself sipping Dasani water. Shit, it is damn near impossible to avoid it. Find someone who is pure. It won't be easy. I am going to check your site on DK. Maybe he is, dunno.

[babzilla]

28. put your money where your mouth is

I think that phrase says a lot about investments.

I have never been in the position to decide where to put all of the extra money burning a hole in my 2% interest savings account. If I ever were in that position, especially if I had political ambitions, I would expect that my investments would be translated to be a vote of support to the particular company or industry.

The closest I have come to voice my financial vote is to participate in boycotts of various stores and products. I think of boycotts as the poorman's version of investment.

RE: Deans GE investment, I found it interesting that Kerry and Dean have the same amount invested in GE (NBC, MSNBC and CNBC): $15,000 - $50,000 according to the link you provided.

Teresa has $1,000,000 - $5,000,000 invested in GE but I'm sure that she would never share the spoils with her husband.

:evilgrin:

[sangh0]

30. That's odd

The people posting about how evil Kerry is in that other thread, don't seem very interested in this thread, or the information that Deans owns stock too.

:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

31. Don't be eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil

:)

[unfrigginreal]

37. You mean all two of them?

How about that we've got two right here with your's and the post after yours.

[KoKo]

36. Dean and Graham Definitely should SELL GE! It's lost them money: Chart:

GE's five year performance.......Not getting their share of the Bush Pie? Or, is MSNBC/CNBC bleeding money.....or maybe it's GE Capital and all it's mortgage lending..........hmmmmmmmmm.......

[eleny]

40. So Nader is right?

These are the reasons why the two main parties are the same?

[RetroLounge]

41. My Wife owns lots of stock in The Gap

I guess that makes me as bad a Kerry, and an Evil person, right?

Must mean I support Sweatshops and such, and PETA will be knocking on my door about my Leather Pants (Yes, Gap makes them).

of course, in reality, my wife WORKS for The Gap, and they give her blocks of stock and Stock Options as an incentive plan, and as a bonus plan, and as a retirement plan.

and we did not refuse the stock, being evil as we are.

So in conclusion, we must be:

EEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllll...

:evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown:
:evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown:
:evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown::evilfrown:

[darkstar]

42. Good topic, Will

I've been thinking about this w/r/t my own personal finances lately and have come to my own, personal positions on the matter.

1) I do not have the time, stomach for, or interest in picking, tracking, and trading my own individual stocks.

2) I am leary about getting into indexed funds, mutual funds, what have you, b/c in those cases I would abidicate the responsibilities I as an individual could exercise in #1 above. That is, I'm ceratin, given enough time, that my fund holdings would at some point contain corporate entities/subs that I would have drawn the line at purchasing were I evaluating them individually.

I've heard about green, christian, etc. oriented fund management programs. Does anyone have expereince w/ these? I see ads for them t them--the green, social left funds--in the UTNE and such, but folks at my bank didn't even know what I was talking about when I asked about them.

*******************

True story: My bank wanted to get me into market. Went into meet w/ the lady. Red, white, and blue bunting patriotic touches, "country" styled office decore, etc. I begin asking her about ownership of these indexed funds and oversight and my concerns. For the life of her, she could not understand what I was saying. For the sake of discussion w/ her, I went with the "family values angle" rather than "enviro, social-left."

"Oh they're all, solid respectable companies," she says.

I asked if she was in a fund.

"Oh yes."

"How do you keep track of the corporations owned?"

"Well, you get a quarterly statement."

"Yes, you told me that 15 mins ago when you explained the whole deal. I mean how do you keep track of the coporations' behavior?"

Blank look.

"I mean, how do you know a company you are invested in doesn't produce or air or distribute movies and music you would want your kids exposed to."

"Oh, they are all solid respectable companies." Again.

She sells these things for a living and is living a complete disconnect, IMHO. I insisted that there were funds tailored to scocial consciousness on both the left and right of the political spectrum and she didn't seem to believe me. She got a superior in her office who said yeah, he'd kind of heard of those, and that he'd get back with me. Never heard back from either of them.


**************

I'm also leary of signing up w/ **anybody** and only getting a quarterly report. I like the notion of buying through a local representative I can call on 5 days a week. Maybe it means I just don't have the stomach or the money for the market, then?

Please, anyone who has had experience w/ any of these green, social-left funds tell me about yr experiences w/ them. And do you know of a way to purchase them through local, 3rd party suppliers in yr home town rather than via their merely ordering their prospectus from UTNE or web site?

On the flip side, if you are in a broadly indexed fund, how do you track yr ownership more regularly than per quarter? Is their a web site for the "pool" yr in? What happens if you spot yrself invested in a comapny you'd rather not be loaning yr money to and sharing profits w/? Can you ask to be divested from one company in yr portfolio? If not, and yr locked in for 5 yrs--that was the figure they gave me before all penalties expired--do you have any options at all? As I said above, I'm *leary,* but not 100% convinced it's a bad idea for me at this time. Retaining certain options (pardon the pun) would be important to me.

Thanks in advance.

[KoKo]

43. darkstar, why don't you post in "Economics" Forum, here. You would

get an answer with maybe a link to "Eviromentally Friendly or Green Funds." No one here gives stock advice but maybe some DU'ers could give you some general information you could use.

There are alot of "Socially Conscious" Mutual Funds. You could also do a Google Search and see what comes up.

But, posting it in the Economic Forum.....would be your best start.... Nothing beats DU for sharing info. And, you have alot of serious questions. :-)'s

Just a tip....maybe your bank is not the best place to get advice about this stuff. Visit a couple of brokers...Big Names and talk to someone about Socially Conscious Investing. :-)s

[MuseRider]

45. I put all my money,

small as it is, into Socially Conscious Mutual Funds. I did not want to just keep cash at the time but would not just go into mutual funds for the reasons you listed above. I talked to my broker who gave me a list, I chose the ones I wanted and they sit there. I do not check them very often, my goodness my husband worries enough for the both of us, but they are still there and I feel a bit better. You will just have to talk to someone with experience. All I did was ask. BTW, they are put into categories so you can determine what is most important to you. It really is kinda cool.

[darkstar]

49. Thanks, KoKo01 and MuseRider--

I get the sense that there is a huge intra-DU back story in all of this that I (thankfully) missed. Lots of posts went up while I was composing mine (plumber here today) and this really ain't exactly the discussion I thought it was.

Thanx for the informative responses.

[Tinoire]

52. Ethical Investments

http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/

http://www.greeninvestment.com/links.html

or just do a google on "Ethical Investments" or "investing ethically"... You're wise... Always be ahead of the curve :)

You can do really well with ethical investments.

Organic Milk for instance... I bought HCOW in 2001 and it's still doing well.

Right now another I like is AFFX (Affymetrix) but be sure you can ride them out because the "get rich overnight" types love playing with that one. It's got a great future and an iron-clad patent.

Had to dump my and drilling-related and most of my gold stocks because of the ethical concerns about the conditions in the mines and the rape and plunder of Africa but I don't regret it.

Peace and good luck.

[frank frankly]

59. great info on alternative investing

now if only I had money...

[Tinoire]

61. Do you have a 401K at work?

If so there are usually ways to handle it yourself and select your own stocks...

[John_H]

46. And we would be remiss if we leave out Fidelity Ralph

Who holds:
Top Ten Stocks as of March 31, 2003



Citigroup, Inc.
4.0
3.6

General Electric Co.
3.5
4.0

Viacom, Inc. Class B (non-vtg.)
3.3
3.5

Microsoft Corp.
3.2
3.3

American International Group, Inc.
3.1
3.4

Pfizer, Inc.
2.8
2.6

Exxon Mobil Corp.
2.4
2.5

Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
2.4
2.9

Merck & Co., Inc.
2.3
1.5

Fannie Mae
2.3
1.9


29.3

[KG]

47. no investments here!!!

O8)

[WilliamPitt]

48. Kick

[WilliamPitt]

50. One

last kick.

[Jack_Sparrow]

51. I own stock

No rum stock though. Arrrr!

[twilight]

56. I owned mutual funds and sold them

The funds were sold in April 2001 - would have sold them sooner but my situation wouldn't allow it. Made a good profit in those 5 years.

I recently was in bond mutual funds and sold them in mid-June. It was invested in a variety of things ranging from junk to AAA bonds. Since I sold them they have tanked bigtime.

I considered reinvesting in the mutuals this company sells at for noload. I ordered the propectus' on each fund and found they were invested in Halliburton, Bechtel, Nestle, Monsanto, etc. The more I read, the more I felt disgusted.

Therefore, I opted to put the money into CDs at 4.25%. At least it is safe and insured and I don't have to worry about it. Good enough for now. I would not consider investing in anything again until * is gone.

That's my reality ... I don't trust what I see and the PPL is VERY real no doubt!

:kick:

[incontrovertible]

57. sorta off-topic

but isn't / wasn't there an index fund based, literally, on Evil? Like, porn, tobacco, liquor, HMOs, strip mines, etc?

If not, there probably ought to be. Clear a lot of things right up.

[Evanstondem]

58. Owning Stock

So does this mean I should sell my Fox Entertainment stock?

[Donna Zen]

60. Let's just say

I live in a well diversified household because I do not intend to starve in the street when I'm old.

However, part of that is in US bonds and there ain't nothing rated higher on the dollar to kill ratio than those.

Also, I am assuming that we all pay taxes in some form or another, so as Thoreau would say: What are you doing out there?

[MrPrax]

62. Yeah owning stock is stored slavery

what's the point here...
I buy 150k shares and contribute to world hunger relief, nukes and cheap consumer appliances...
The 'stocks' regarding equitable wages, living standards, protections, industrial regulatory, safe and honest environmental practices, affordable housing, poverty, education, universal health care are 'SHORT
SOLD' every day...
Someone feels guilty here in not trying to contemplate how to go from A to B...

[OrdinaryTa]

63. Gore's Fellow Tennesseeans

Gore's fellow Tennesseeans .... didn't vote for him. Maybe his sweetheart dealings with Occidental Petroleum had something to do with it. But it's hard to say what motivates Tennesseeans. Personally, I'd be similarly unenthusiastic about a candidate who presents himself as virtuous and then it turns out he's not.

We keep hearing politicians say there's nothing they can do about corporations. It's generally not true, and in the case of Al Gore and Occidental Petroleum, it's certainly not true. This guy didn't light any fires when he ran for President. All kinds of people who were expected to vote for him, didn't.