US Troops kill Mom+Dad in front of their 5 kids-car didn't stop checkpoint

[kuozzman]

BBC Slideshow
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

A US military statement said troops trying to stop the car used hand signals and fired warning shots before firing directly at the car, killing the driver and front seat passenger.

[DrWeird]

1. Any evidence the car didn't stop?

Can't tell anything from the photos, except for the brake lights that is.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. yep..saw that too

[leftofcool]

2. Yea right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eom

Left of Cool

[paula777]

3. OMG - This is HORRIFIC. I can't blame the soldiers though ...

If a car doesn't stop at a checkpoint, I'm sure the soldiers just assume they are about to die so they open fire. The BBC really tells it like it is, don't they. I bet no US news organization is going to show these pictures.

[bpilgrim]

66. they're just doing their job

fighting an illegal war of aggression...

peace

[Us vs Them]

5. And they don't have tack strips at a boarder checkpoint?

What the fuck is going on here.

This is UNACCEPTABLE.

[sweetbutterfly]

49. Track strips?

You do know that all they would do is flatten the tires while the car continues to move approximately a mile before it would stop, don't you? How many U.S. soldiers potentiall could be killed in that mile? Clearly the soldiers took appropriate action. I'm sorry, but anyone living in Iraq at this point should know to stop at the checkpoints.

[Occulus]

53. Could the soldiers speak Arabic?

Did they make "stop" a clear concept?

If you were in a car and heard gunshots nearby, which pedal would you push?

Could they see the children in the car, using binoculars from a distance?

Has this ever happened before? If so, has anything been learned by either party?

Why do the checkpoints not have a staunch gate? Can people just drive on through? Are we talking line-of-sight to beyond the gate?

I could keep asking, but I'm thinking if you answer those questions honestly, you'll have a better picture of why this was a bad thing.

Welcome to DU!

[sweetbutterfly]

77. thanks for the welcome

1. who said gunshots were heard?
2. Don't know...what does it matter?
3. Probably...that war sucks
4 It's a war...these things happen...it is a "sad" thing...but such things do happen in a war. It does not make our soldiers bad guys...nor are they perfect.

[Ms. Clio]

56. It wasn't a checkpoint

And nobody knows what actually happened except the killers, the dead parents, and the kids.

[Must_B_Free]

85. Exactly

I heard this tiny detail onj the CNN video - it was an imprompteau thig they set up.

[CoffeeCat]

6. Devastating...absoutely devastating...

no words. :(

[beam me up scottie]

7. I know many of you might not want to hear this and

I realize this is an unspeakable tragedy for the victims' children and I have seen the picture of the little girl before. It is truly heartbreaking. But these photos also show the soldiers reactions.
And you can flame me all you want but these soldiers were not monsters. They didn't know there were 5 children in the backseat, they couldn't have. And they are under orders to shoot regardless, because if they don't, many more people could die from a car bomb. Can anyone imagine how these men must feel? I know they will have to live with what they did for the rest of their lives and it may well destroy them.
I don't damn the soldiers, I was one.
I damn this president and all of his cabal.
Damn them all to hell
I don't even believe in hell
but I hope they do
and I hope they spend eternity burning in it
because these soldiers will also
if only in their minds

[paula777]

8. Beam me up - very nicely said - I totally agree n/t

[karlrschneider]

11. As much as I don't want to, I have to agree with you.

I don't believe in hell either (or deities) but I hope I'm wrong because the bastards who started this infernal crusade really need to rot someplace for eternity.
:grr:

[PROGRESSIVE1]

61. Bush is making this a VERY dangerous world!

:argh:

[ckramer]

9. Yes, democracy!

[tmooses]

10. These kids are now get to sample Bush's freedom--freedom from

having a family. The pix are truly disturbing. You can ALMOST imagine from the expressions what it was like, but I guess if you're not there no one could imagine the horror. If I could read the expressions on the little girl she would be asking "Why?". If you take a close look at the soldiers they look like they might be wondering, "What the fuck are we doing to these people here?" The caption on the last pix said something like "the military regrets the unfortunate circumstance". An unfortunate circumstance? The whole fucking war is an "unfortunate circumstance" run by people who have no clue what war is about. What a contrast to the Bush coronation -- Yep, Bush will make the world free
alright!

[alexisfree]

12. These soldiers can go fry in hell with BUSH

Other ways to stop a car than shoot people in cold blood. Look at the Police in the USA how do they stop a car. Go by a federal building what do you see..A steel lift that decends and lowers when you want to stop a car. Also Spike strips. Alot of the soldiers are just trigger happy. Just image bush gave them the permission to kill anyone who isnt white in IRAQ








Well lets get this one out guys got to clean the streets for the next one.

[beam me up scottie]

15. I don't think you understand...

This is NOT the USA
This is NOT the police
This was NOT a federal building
There are NO spike strips in the desert
THIS IS IRAQ

And while I have been in the forefront when it comes to demanding justice for the troops that have committed crimes while in uniform, these men did not have the luxury of stopping to "discuss" how to handle the situation.
They have orders to shoot the occupants of any motor vehicle if it does not stop.
Period.
There are many reasons why. It's not nice and it's not fair. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Pentagon, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.
In the meantime, until you've been in combat boots save the armchair judgements for those in power, they sent these men to Iraq.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. If they were good enough sharpshooters to target and hit the driver

couldn't they have shot out the tires or something to stop the car?

:cry:

[beam me up scottie]

18. You make a good point.

But no. A combat soldier has to follow orders without thinking about it. Not following orders gets other soldiers killed.
I would love to see the day that all soldiers everywhere put down their weapons and refused to fight. But they can't.
I hate that it has to be that way.
I hate war, all wars.
I bleed for all of the victims, civilians and military.
I am an ex-marine who is now a pacifist.
Can you understand why?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. But are they being given orders to shoot the drivers instead of

to stop the cars? There's a difference.

Are their superiors telling them to shoot the drivers?

Or are their superiors telling them to stop the cars, and they are taking it upon themselves to shoot the drivers, which is okay with them, because it's just furriners?

[beam me up scottie]

23. It's not so black and white. There are arguements to be made for

th sides.
Many soldiers have committed crimes in Iraq and have abused their authority. They should be tried for war crimes and so should the commanders that let them get away with it.
My point was that these soldiers should never be put in a situation where they have to kill civilians to protect themselves. Many soldiers have died trying to stop suicide bombers as they sped through checkpoints.
The problem is lack of communication and I'm sure there must be ways to remedy the situation. I don't know if anything is being done, but frankly, I doubt it because problems at checkpoints have been reported almost contantly since we occupied Iraq.
There is an interview with a medic Patrick Resta who is back from Iraq
at counterpunch.com. He gives valuable insight from a soldier's perspective. Link: http://www.counterpunch.org/

This is another example of piss poor military planning (or lack of it)
British soldiers are given classes on how to interact with civilians.
This administration could care less about our soldiers. They claim that having our troops occupying Iraq for this long was "an unforeseen circumstance".
I found the report written by the photographer,Chris Hondros. Here's the link: http://www.pdnonline.com/photodistrictnews/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000768970

<snip>
"Usually little more happens than finding someone out after curfew, patting him down, and then sending him home. On daylight patrols, sometimes, troops stop to briefly play with children or even drink tea. On evening patrols - past curfew - no one is on the streets, and the men are extra-vigilant and professional.
Tal Afar is an ethnically mixed town -- though primarily Turkoman, and had only days before been the scene of a gun battle between U.S. forces and local insurgents." <snip>

Posting those pictures generated much hatred for our troops. I'm really glad you and other DU'ers are trying to understand why tragedies like this keep happening.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. I wonder if anyone thought of having signs available in Arabic:

"Stop for the checkpoint--you'll be shot if you don't" (and other signs that might be necessary) and distributing them among the troops. I wonder if anyone considered that an Iraqi civilian, seeing a bunch of U.S. military personnel standing around with guns and having heard of other people getting shot, might not panic and hit the accelerator.

Americans are so ignorant about foreign cultures. They expect everyone to understand English, or at least Shouted English, if regular English doesn't work. I'm reminded of the scene in Fahrenheit 9-11, where the U.S. troops are searching a house, yelling at the terrified occupants in English. I'm reminded of similar footage from the Vietnam War, U.S. troops ordering terrified and bewildered Vietnamese around in English.

Why the hell doesn't anyone think about these things ahead of time? I wonder if any of these "well-trained" military personnel ever thought even to ask a sympathetic local (say one of the people working on the base) to make a sign for them.

It's a foreign country that speaks a different language. Communication problems should be anticipated, not ignored. A huge DUH! to the entire U.S. military effort.

I wonder how the apologists for this action would feel if they were driving the family around town, and all of a sudden they came upon a bunch of Arab occupiers with guns yelling at them in Arabic, and they had heard stories of innocent civilians being killed. How many would stop, and how many would panic?

And in such a situation, how many Americans would say, "Well, they should have stopped"?

[VTMechEngr]

40. OK, reality check.

Car with flat tires can still drive at you. Shooting at engine takes a much bigger bullet. Thats the problem they face. If a car gets too close, a driver can open fire or blow the car up. They have few options to stop a car coming at them who does not obey signals to stop other than to open fire. War is Hell. Those poor innocent children are victims of Bush. The soldiers who will be haunted by those children's cries are victims of Bush.

Those soldiers are in a shitty situation and are rightly scared for their lives. I don't like it one bit when our soldiers wipe out a family in a car. They can't see the driver from afar, but the car is coming at them. Really, What other choice did they have?

[Ms. Clio]

59. The car was just driving past them on the street

Are Iraqis not allowed to drive around in their own cities anymore? Is every car that passes U.S. forces now a potential threat, and they should shoot first and let god sort it all out later?

Sounds like a free-fire zone to me.

[beam me up scottie]

63. To answer your questions,

no, not in some cities, yes in some areas all cars are seen as possible threats and yes, they shoot first when a car keeps coming at them after being asked to stop.
Unfortunately those are the assumptions and the reality.
The city of Fallujah was a free fire zone once the military moved in to quash insurgents. It was morally indefensible, most likely illegal, and sadly, also a complete failure.
That said, soldiers cannot change policy. If they had a choice, I tend to agree with JohnOneillsMemory, most would want to come home to their families.

[Ms. Clio]

64. They can put down their guns and walk away

Others have done it.

German soldiers couldn't change policy, either, and they wanted to come home to their families, too. At what point do these men become responsible for their own actions?

Or, if you dislike the German comparison, perhaps an example from U.S. history would be more appropriate:

Congressional testimony by John S. Smith, an eyewitness to the Sand Creek Massacre (1865):

Question. Were the women and children slaughtered indiscriminately, or only so far as they were with the warriors?

Answer. Indiscriminately.

Question. Were there any acts of barbarity perpetrated there that came under your own observation?

Answer. Yes, sir; I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces.

By Mr. Buckalew:

Question. How cut?

Answer. With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors.

By Mr. Gooch:

Question. Did you see it done?

Answer. Yes, sir; I saw them fall.

Question. Fall when they were killed?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did you see them when they were mutilated?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. By whom were they mutilated?

Answer. By the United States troops.


http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/four/sandcrk.htm#smith

[beam me up scottie]

68. Agreed.

We could all also rise up and overthrow this sham of a government to prevent any more death.
I will be on the front line of the revolution as would most DU'ers.
I cannot defend the actions of the military nor the troops. I did not intend to try. History has shown that foot soldiers have always been no more than cannon-fodder for the government. Many have put down their guns. Many soldiers returning from Iraq have refused to go back. Some have moved to Canada and become deserters rather than go and become killers. They are heroes. Anyone who takes a stand for justice is a hero. Infantry men are usually not included in that category.
I am not defending what they did to the parents of those children. I do believe that whether or not they face charges, most of these men will judge themselves as guilty and sentence themselves to a lifetime of seeing the children's faces whenever they close their eyes.
Ask a Vietnam vet. I know plenty, trust me, they paid for the deaths they caused.

[Ms. Clio]

90. There is a huge difference between all of us rising up

and overthrowing the government, and the individual decision to kill, or not to kill. One requires the participation of a mass movement, the other just the act of picking up--or putting down--a gun.

I certainly believe that you as a former vet do feel that guilt and pain--but not all, or perhaps even many, do. Do you think the men who murdered and mutilated the Cheyennes were haunted by their victims' faces? There is absolutely no evidence of that in the historical record at all.

Just as most of those soldiers in 1865 believed that Indians were nothing more than nits who made lice, there is a percentage, small or large, of the U.S. troops who see Iraqis are less than human, and will not care at all how many they kill.

[sweetbutterfly]

79. potential threat

Yes, because of the "noble insurgents" every car that passes U.S. forces is a potential threat....haven't the car bombs convinced you of that yet? They've convinced me.

[Ms. Clio]

88. So you are saying that any Iraqi in a car should expect to be shot at

if they come within firing range of any U.S. troops.

That sort of vicious logic is the reason the Iraqis are resisting the U.S. occupation.

[Clark2008]

21. Semper Fi - Do or die.

It's not your fault or their's.
You're right - they are doing the job they're told to do. It's really isn't their fault. I know. My grandpa was a DI in the Marines. I understand.

But...
Poor babies. Poor sweet children.
Who will forever hate those who killed their parents.

Oh, God. Please, make this stop.

[beam me up scottie]

25. I know, I bawl everytime I see those pictures. It makes me

want to crawl into bed and never leave. No news means no pain but it would be a betrayal of all who cannot turn off the tv because they are living the nightmare. I get furious at people who don't want to bother learning the truth about this war. The details must be just "too icky" for them. The way I see it, it's the least I can do.

[Clark2008]

28. I know. I covered crime for several newspapers and

one of the things the parents would always do is sit in the courtroom - even during the autopsy testimony. I never met one who didn't sit through most of it, although I don't know anyone who would have told them they had to.
When I would ask, "Why?", they would say, "My baby endured worse. It's the least I can do to endure their pain."

Now, as a mother, I know.

[beam me up scottie]

34. That's it exactly.

Mothers are able to empathize because you realize everyone is someones son or daughter. IMHO.

[DELUSIONAL]

13. Troops are bastards

Any information from the military is a lie --

Hand signals used by the bastard US Troops is often NOT understood -- the Iraqi use different hand signals --

The US military is a cult that turns even nice men and women into monsters -- some can come out of that monster persona -- but many stay in the in between world and never return to the civilian world.

The soldiers who did this are monsters -- they have taken on the bushita personality.

Bush ordered this war -- he wants the oil -- and anyone who kills for bush is guilty of murder. Anyone who voted for bush is guilty of war crimes.

Amazing that they didn't shoot the children/witnesses too -- like the children found shot to death in their beds in Fallujah.

[alexisfree]

14. They didnt get a chance to kill the kids because they saw a news reporter

taking pictures

[truthpusher]

87. come on, you really can't believe that? I saw you post on another...

...thread and it seems like you have a very bad view of the troops?

[LibertyorDeath]

22. DELUSIONAL Could you give some more info on this

"children found shot to death in their beds in Fallujah."

I've seen pictures & read about adults Civilians murdered in their beds in Fallujah.

This is beyond disturbing if the US Military is purposely killing Iraqi
Children.

[DELUSIONAL]

46. Eye witness reports of children found shot in their beds

from people who had to go into Fallujah to bury the bodies --

These accounts were contained in news reports posted to DU -- there were also photos of whole families killed in their own homes. The US soldiers broke into every home, trashed the homes (in one case wrote very rude words using the owner's lipstick to write on a mirror). The reporter was not (in-bed) with the military -- but was an Independent observer.

So they are no only murdering they are also trashing Iraqi homes -- and this is unsettling to the International world. US troops are acting like thugs, bullies, gang members -- and they know that they cannot be touched by International law.

[Ms. Clio]

54. Israeli soldiers loot and trash Palestinian homes in exactly the same way

[LibertyorDeath]

82. Thank you. Every time I think it can't get any worse

I come across more new Sickening info.

"Eye witness reports of children found shot in their beds"

What the Fuck is it going to take so enough Americans say

ENOUGH!

[katinmn]

29. Some are bastards, I hope most aren't.

I'd say the guys who shot the wounded unarmed Iraqis are bastards, too:

http://207.44.245.159/article5365.htm

[beam me up scottie]

33. I agree completely.

I would hope DU'ers would also realize every situation is different.
To condemn and label all soldiers murderers sounds like something I would read on freeperville except they would be saying that about the Iraqis.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

39. When will American parents learn that kids signing up = this all too often

Please don't jump on me for being 'against the troops' who are in a horrible 'us-or-them' survival situation. God, I wish them a safe return to their families and a speedy healing from war scars, physical and emotional.

I recently spent a long time talking at a peace rally with a Vietnam Vet who was traumatized by the flashbacks that this war was giving him. He needed to talk to someone who got how the scam works and understood the conflicted post-war state he was in. He was all I could think about as the Emperor vomited 'freedom' over and over yesterday.

Many of our troops just want to get home to their own kids. I heard an interview on Pacifica Radio with two homeless US vets with kids (!) who are haunted by the choice they had to make when faced by an Iraqi kid with an AK47: do they shoot or risk dying and leaving their own kids without a parent?!

Our troops are NOT psychologically prepared for child soldiers or the horrible scene in this story about the 'checkpoint.'

I wept then and this story shakes me up, too. And pisses me the fuck off to see that people still trust the US gov't enough to sign up! And then continue obeying even when they get the scam out of a sense of 'duty.'

When will Americans learn that the role of the US military is precisely to prevent and dismantle democracies like the 2/2004 US coup in Haiti? They are sent in to do the 'heavy lifting' when the CIA dirty tricks of destabilizing a country's economy and causing starvation or terrorizing the defenseless population by training dictators in the high art of torture and death squads just isn't enough to get the economic terms the White House wants for its fascist henchmen.

It is never an 'honorable' task to be used as a hitman for the gangsters who own and run the US government, despite honorable and selfless good intentions. Yes, our troops have been lied to and deceived, but for decades-not months!

This isn't a 'mistakes will happen cuz war is hell' aberration.
We fucking well learned that in Vietnam, right? 35 years ago...

Hell, in 1937 General Smedley Butler wrote a warning that war is the poor fighting for the rich in an essay called 'War is a Racket.'
He figured out that his entire career had been fighting for the United Fruit Company in all the countries of the Caribbean. And he was pissed!

This is not a new situation brought on by the neo-cons. It has been the case for many many decades.

We all helped cause this mess by not educating our kids to this scam and allowing a poverty draft which burdens mainly the poor with military duty. The US Army is practically an African American jobs program.

The media sell the war. The Pentagon likes doing training with real people on the other end of the gun, trying out new weapons, and needs most of the oil they conquer and steal. They won't protect our kids. They'll use their lives and chuck'em like spent cartridge shells.

Only parents can keep their own kids from 'serving' the war criminals in the White House. And teach them that non-cooperation with the un-elected war criminal Commander In Thief is highly moral behavior that protects us all better than shipping out to the Alamo. No matter how many times the Emperor says the word 'freedom.'

[katinmn]

41. very well said.

America has been on this path for decades. Bush is just making it more transparent to the world that America isn't the beacon of democracy it has pretended to be.

Americans have to make a choice: Are we to be world bullies who take what we want in the name of freedom, or will we stand for justice?

[beam me up scottie]

57. Thank you for seeing both sides.

I wonder sometimes if the people who believe all soldiers are murderers actually know any of them. They are members of our families, neighbors, friends and co-workers. So many of these men and women are members of the National Guard or state militias. They are not professional mercenaries. As part-time civilians, they get up every morning, watch their kids get on the bus and then go to work to support their family. They are mechanics, accountants, medical professionals, students, firemen, chefs, social workers, policemen, I could go on and on but you get my point. You all know a soldier, they are not monsters or murderers. Some may be, but most murderers in this country are civilians, I don't hear anyone classifying all civilians as such.
To make such generalizations lowers us to the level of freepers.
We are better than that.

[alexisfree]

83. Lets not blame the soldiers is a fantasy. The soldiers need to take

responsibilty for their action....You might as well and say dont blame the drunk driver who killed and mained innocent bystandards he is 18 and still in high school. Yeah I can see that one going well in a jury in the usa. ITS CALLED RESPONSABILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS>

[lonestarnot]

20. Bushilter wants family killers for his army...Anyone enlisting TODAY?

[jayfish]

24. Interesting Information Gleaned From CNN Tonight.

That was not a checkpoint. It was a patrol. Soledad O'Brian was interviewing the photographer and he called the operation a "patrol" several times. This means that they didn't stop at the checkpoint because there wasn't one. The reporter said that it was 90% darkness at the time and it was obvious early on that the car was not going to stop. There were a couple of other things that I heard but I need to look at the transcript before commenting. I will post the transcript as soon as it is up.

Jay

[beam me up scottie]

26. Check the link on my post #23

nt

[jayfish]

30. Yup, That's The Story I Heard.

Thanx

Jay

[beam me up scottie]

35. Don't mention it.

I checked out your profile, got to say I love your comment.
Corruption is a virus.

[jayfish]

36. It's Actually A Quote From...

IDF Brigadier-General Yiftah Spector. He said it during an interview on Nightline. The show was about Israeli pilots who refused to bomb Palestinian targets. He supported them and made the comment. It relates very well to this incident. I fixed my profile to give proper credit.

Jay

[ConsAreLiars]

27. It wasn't a checkpoint - It was a gang of invaders in Camo who

got scared and killed them. Hand signals in the middle of the night. Then warning shots. Like if I hear gunshots I'm going to park!

Monsters!

Those poor (US) kids are the Gestapo, and they were on a raid to exterminate Iraqi resistance fighters. They are hated by the whole country, and they are justifiably frightened by everything that moves.

Some of them will turn into hardened killers; others will wake up at night screaming and crying.

BRING THEM HOME!

[Clark2008]

32. They're not monsters, dear.

They're pawns.

BRING THEM HOME! is correct, however.


They're killing to keep from being killed because they shouldn't be there in the first place.

The monster is the machine. Not the soldiers.

[ConsAreLiars]

37. I understand that.

The machine forces them into the role of monsters. They don't choose it, but they must act as monsters and deal with that. They are victims, willing or not, of the dehumanization that any war of aggression demands.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Egad.

I usually have to argue against the war with freepers, which is pointless because they don't read anything or consider different viewpoints either.

[ChairOne]

38. Somebody help this make sense to me plz.......

So the soldiers who did the shooting are telling me a story something of the following sort:

The US soldiers have been in Iraq for over a year, and are *known* to have treated innocent Iraqis badly, even up to torturing them.

Every Iraqi knows this.

So one such Iraqi, with wife and small child, knowing exactly how capricious the occupiers are, either:

(a) sees the soldiers yelling and gesturing and what-not. The Iraqi either "doesn't understand" what all the hubbub is about, and decides to ignore it, despite the obvious risk to his wife and child, OR

(b) he *does* understand, and just doesn't care, or thinks he's a baddass who can make it thru.

(To make (a) clearer, ask anyone in the world who understands what a gun is the following question: what do you do when a bunch of people with guns start yelling at you in a language you don't understand, and for reasons you don't understand. I defy you to show me anyone, anywhere who says "you keep going as tho nothing at all is happening".)

THIS is what the soldiers want me to believe? Yah right.

To all of the soldier-supporters in this thread - all of what you've said has merit ONLY IF we take the soldiers at their word. I suggest there's plausible reason not to. That plausible reason is: Their story don't make no sense.

OK - so where have I gone wrong here?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. I think panic is the most likely explanation

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

55. Did you read the report from the

independent photographer?
If you want to believe they are lying, fine.
I posted the link because I thought other DU'ers would want more information before they judged these men.
I'm glad to see most posters were less inclined to be judge and jury.
Most of us "soldier-supporters" also are anti-war; one can be both. I refuse to apologize for feeling compassion for our soldiers. If one wants to label me a "soldier-supporter" fine. I will wear it the same way I wear the republican label of "liberal". Because, unlike them, we are capable of being more than a label.

[ChairOne]

62. Of course I read it.....

But it didn't answer my question, and you didn't even attempt to - choosing instead to treat me like a tyrannical "judge and jury". I asked a question, of the form "make this make sense to me". You refused to even address the question. Nuff said.

Who cares *what* the facts are - just support your troops. It's *hard* work after all...

Great...

[beam me up scottie]

65. To answer your question,

there is NO SENSE to it.
ANY of it.
I agree with you 100% on that but I will not believe all soldiers are trigger happy murderers.
And yes, supporting our troops, if that's what you want to call it, is hard work. It's hard to understand what it's like to be a soldier just as it is to understand what it's like to have your parents killed before your eyes for not stopping for a patrol. That's why I was looking for the facts as opposed to ignoring them.
Of course my first instinct was to empathize with the Iraqi children, they are the victims, but that does not mean I forgot the lessons learned (or not) in Vietnam.
I did not start posting on this thread to defend soldiers regardless of their actions, I leave that to freepers, but I also refuse to brand all of them as evil murderers. That is the ethical dilemma.
None of us see the world the way * and his supporters do, I think that's one of the reasons why images like these illicit so much emotion from DU'ers.
I just wanted people to feel some compassion for our soldiers as well.
They will be having nightmares for the rest of their lives.

[ChairOne]

67. Is today Strawman Day or something? sheesh....

Who's talking about ALL soldiers being "trigger happy murderers"? Only you, as far as I can see.

And that, only as a smokescreen to hide from the question: Are THESE PARTICULAR soldiers "trigger happy murderers"? That's question that's much more difficult to answer. And hiding from that specific question by pretending the question is about ALL soldiers is thoroughly dishonest, and unhelpful.

I feel plenty of compassion for most of our soldiers - the trigger-happy-murderering ones excepted. That's why it's very important (to me at any rate) to figure out which is which.

You don't wanna convict them without evidence? Fine. I gave prima fasciae reason to think that something went wrong on the soldiers' parts - to wit, *it doesn't make sense* to think an Iraqi would act as the soldiers claim. You wanna defend the soldiers - THESE PARTICULAR SOLDIERS? Great. Make their story make sense then. That'll be sufficent for me.

[beam me up scottie]

70. I continued to post because of the comments on

posts 12, 16, 13, 14, 20 and 48.
And yes, something did go wrong on the soldiers part. They got sent to Iraq and were told to stop civilians who drive after curfew and that if they continue without stopping, they are to shoot.
I have no evidence that these soldiers did anything other than what they have orders to do. The only record available right now is the report from the independent photographer. He has been on patrol with them and describes the nightly patrol after curfew. I also researched incidents involving Iraqi civilians that do not stop at checkpoints and other stops by patrols. It happens all too frequently mostly due to miscommunication.
I formed my opinion based on that information. Arguing with you based on your belief is illogical. And I am not here to make it make sense to anyone.
It is just that, my opinion, take it or leave it. You chose to leave it. End of discussion.



edited wrong post number referenced

[ChairOne]

71. LOL - there's definitely illogicality here somewhere....

(a) I neither made nor responded to any of those posts that you mentioned. It's too bad you refused to respond to *my* question, preferring instead to answer strawmen.

(b) It's amusing how you insist on gerrymandering my question. What went wrong on the soldiers part was that "hey got sent to Iraq...."? Genius - dishonestly genius.

(c) "Arguing with based on belief is illogical"? ROFL. I don't *have* any beleifs on the matter. I'm want the facts - I don't know why you don't. The *story given* doesn't make sense. I asked for you (or anyone) to make the story make sense - you refuse to even try to - preferring instead to sluff off and talk about other things.

It's unfortunate that blind support of troops makes some people absolutely uncurious about what actually took place.

It's rather like the distinction, written about a few years ago, between the kind of love a small child has for his mommy versus the kind of love an *adult* has for his mother. The former is completely unable to countenance any flaws in his mommy, and loves blindly. The latter can see the flaws, even understand them to some degree, and still loves her.

[beam me up scottie]

72. As I said in my OP, flame away...

Here ya go:
(a)I listed the above posts in response to your question "Who's talking about ALL soldiers being "trigger happy murderers"? Only you, as far as I can see."
(b)I already posted an opinion regarding what when wrong in my posts 15, 23 and 63.
(c)"I asked for you (or anyone) to make the story make sense - you refuse to even try to"
Reread my post 65. I wrote "To answer your question,there is NO SENSE to it. ANY of it."

"It's unfortunate that blind support of troops makes some people absolutely uncurious about what actually took place."
Did you mean incurious?
I believe I was the one who was curious enough to :
find the report from the photographer
learn about the curfew and why it is enforced
research the incidence of checkpoint shootings and why they happen
understand that this tragedy will never make sense even after all of the reports are in.
How much effort did you put into learning about this incident before you asked for someone "to make sense of it" for you?

[ChairOne]

73. Sigh....

I've said numerous times that I want the *soldiers' story* to make sense to me.

My only question concerns the behavior of *these particular* soldiers.

All you do is try to hide *these soldiers* behind the veil of "there is NO SENSE to it. ANY of it."

It's kinda like what "some people" might think of as a defense at Nuremberg. (Prosecutor) "Did you commit warcrimes, sir?" (Defendant) "Well, all war is a crime, and I was a soldier."

Hide them in the crowd. Fine, I suppose, but that's just not what I was asking about. I was asking about *these particular* soldiers, and *their particular* story.

Telling me that nothing makes sense anywhere anytime at all is just a cute way to avoid attempting to answer the question.

I suppose I should take the utter silence on the question of the soldier's specific story making sense as an implicit admission that it does not. I'd rather hear a bonafide attempt at making their story make sense tho....

LOL

Q: Why did you steal the candy bar, Alice?
A: Why does anybody steal anything? It's all so crazy - CRAZY I tell you!

rofl

[beam me up scottie]

74. Your Nuremberg analagy really means a lot to me

considering my mom was a WWII refugee who suffered at the hands of German and American soldiers. She was the first person to teach me that soldiers are capable of horrible deeds as well as astounding acts of kindness.
Don't take my "utter?" silence as admittance to anything. I have yet to hear the SOLDIERS' side of the story, as have you. The military made their standard "the troops were following orders" statement. That is not the same thing.
I am not "hiding" behind anything. I believe war (this war in particular) is wrong, therefore my opinion that it doesn't make sense is completely appropriate and not a "veil". My mother also taught me that judgement before all the facts are in is wrong. IMHO again, judgement by anyone who has never been in the same situation and faced the same set of circumstances using assumptions based on the absence of facts is also wrong.
I prefer to wait until I have the facts. Again, arguing with someone who insists that I make sense of something based on the lack of evidence is illogical. I did not condemn nor defend these soldiers. I originally asked people to try to empathize with troops that are forced into fighting a war that is not of their making. I am able to do just that, others may not be.
I will happy to let you know my conclusion if and when the soldiers' stories they are published and all the facts are in, but I don't think you care about the opinions of others.
If you did, you would not have picked a fight without reason.

[ChairOne]

76. No, that's *not* what the military said....

What the military said was:

"two Iraqi civilians were killed when the vehicle they were driving tried to speed through a Multi-National Force patrol Tuesday in northern Iraq . . . Military officials extend their condolences for this unfortunate incident."

(I looked for a more recent Pentagon statement, and was unable to find one.)

The claim, moreover, is that the driver ignored attempts to make him stop via warning shots.

That story, as given, doesn't seem to pass the laugh test, as I originally posted. I asked for someone to make *that story* make sense - or at least give it an honest shot. That's all. Just make the story given make sense.

Why it is you think that I've made up my mind about anything on the matter is beyond me. Unless, that is, anyone who questions the behavior of individual soldiers has ipso facto made up their minds... Nah - that's something I would expect of other sorts of people....

[beam me up scottie]

75. The first lines from you OP:

"Somebody help this make sense to me plz.......
So the soldiers who did the shooting are telling me a story something of the following sort:..."
My reply:
The soldiers haven't told their story to you or anyone else here at all, their personal accounts of the incident have not been published.
Therefore any further questions regarding their behavior should be directed at them.
I am not their spokesperson.
I have no obligation to provide you with anything.
I posted my opinions and two links, I am sorry you felt the need to question my opinions or motives for posting them.
Please forgive me for asking people to learn the facts before they condemn these soldiers. I had no idea I was asking so much.
Reading most of the posts from other DU'ers, it wasn't asking too much from them.

As I said before, flame on.

[ChairOne]

78. Beautiful - quibble on "soldiers" vs "military"....

... and keep ducking my actual question... Like Eddie Murphy-cum-Jessie Jackson upon being elected POTUS - lol

[beam me up scottie]

80. still flaming away I see.

Since you seem intent on having the last word, don't bother.
You are right.
You were right about everything.
I bow to your superior intelligence and psychic abilities.
Wow, I really had everyone believing I cared about the Iraqis didn't I?
You saw right through me.
I'm a hitler-loving, child hating, soldier advocate who believes that they can do no wrong no matter how many people they kill.
All of my posts, (all over DU, not just in this thread) claiming to be an anti-war advocate were just a ruse.
Ya got me,
Congratulations.

[ChairOne]

81. Woohoo! I'm right! O waitaminute - I never asserted anything....

... I only wanted a question answered.... One that was never even *addressed*, let alone satisfactorily answered... All I got was a why-do-you-hate-the-troops blathering...

O well. Can I save your admission for sometime when I actually *do* assert something? That'd be kewl...

[alexisfree]

86. People need to realize that soldiers are guilty for crimes and are not

angels like some people on this board portray them to be. It is funny how you try to make excuses.

[spooked]

43. WHY THE H*LL don't the soldiers just SHOOT the TIRES FLAT!?

This is not the first time this happens...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. So it wouldn't stop the car--BUT

it would slow it down enough to allow the soldiers to figure out who was inside.

This "kill the driver, ask questions later" approach is only going to create more enemies.

[beam me up scottie]

60. You're correct, the policy has made many more enemies

than allies.
I just would like to add that there was a curfew, and right or wrong (I tend to feel it is the latter) soldiers are told to assume anyone who doesn't stop is an enemy insurgent. It is obviously impossible
for Iraqi citizens to comprehend how they can be viewed as enemies in their own damn country. My blood boils just thinking about it-what inflames me even more is that they are required to carry ID cards in some cities. It is revolting. But I also understand that it isn't the foot soldiers that decide policy.

[JHBowden]

47. Think from the perspective of the soldier, though

Would *you guys* want to take the chance that the car wasn't a bomb? I sure as hell wouldn't. Yes, it is a crappy situation, but to suggest our soldiers out out there deliberately spreading evil is a simplistic, black'and'white interpretation of what happened.

[Jacobin]

48. Guess it wouldn't be enough 'fun' to shoot out the tires

[Misunderestimator]

50. On CNN this morning, they were spinning it as evidence of compassion

from the soldiers in caring for those poor children... :wtf: Compassion? Kill the parents and then hug the kids... if that's American compassion, I'd hate to see American evil.

[moobu2]

51. I saw that last night, CNN is GOP scum n/t

[alexisfree]

84. Compassion is gone if it wasnt for the reporter the children would have

died as well. I cannot beleive what this world has done to humanity

[moobu2]

52. BTW, this incident happened on the 18th,

the same day Condi Rice was being grilled by Sen. Boxer, maybe even WHILE Condi was being questioned about Iraq..

[Vinca]

58. I cried when I saw this.

My tears were for the slaughtered parents, for the terrified children, for the soldiers who will have to live with it the rest of their lives and because it made me ashamed to be an American. How does George Bush sleep at night?

[Blue Gardener]

69. George W. has no soul

I'm sure he sleeps fine.

[Cats Against Frist]

89. HOLY FUCKING SHIT

The full weight of this just came down to bear on me.

What are we doing to those people? That country did not even attack us -- we all know that now (except for a few neocons and delusional freepers).

Why are we there??

Fuck. Nevermind. I know all the answers, and it is horrific. Almost too horrific to wrap your mind around.