Question: do you have hard, solid evidence that the election was stolen?

[CarbonDate]

If so, please provide it to the news media, Democratic leadership, the Democratic Underground, and the FBI.

(Warning: rant following. Please do not read if you are easily offended, as I will be blasting a large number of DU posters, although not by name.)

<rant>

If not, please stop berating those of us who wish to find ways to improve our tactics in 2006 and 2008 as though we are fools for believing that we actually lost. If you persist in making unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud as though it's a sure thing that it happened (as opposed to addressing "possible" voter fraud and demanding accountability in future elections with paper trails and such, on which I will agree with you), I will designate you as a fringe lunatic and proceed to ignore you (not that my attention is that grand of a thing, but I know I'm not alone on this).

I'm sorry if this hurts anybody's feelings, but I'm finding all of this conspiracy theory talk completely counterproductive. I hear people talking about "fighting" voter fraud, but when I ask, "how?" I'm given silence. That's because they don't know, and they're in deep denial about the fact that we LOST THE DAMNED ELECTION. We had a poor candidate (yes, he'd have made a fine President; so would have a lot of candidates who lost to lesser men) running a half-assed campaign who didn't really care all that deeply about winning the election. He was doing it because he had, in his words, "nothing to lose".

Yeah, the game's rigged, including our own primaries. We just have to persevere and overcome. We can't change the rules until we win, so let's figure out how to do that. If you have a way of proving voter fraud beyond a reasonable doubt (circumstantial evidence is completely useless), then great. If you're seeking that evidence, then great. If all you're doing is bitching about how we were robbed and not doing anything about it, then STFU. I don't know how to fight voter fraud other than winning future elections by wide margins, so that's what I'm focusing on for the future. At present, I'm putting my attention behind trying to get a candidate whom I think can win the next election handily (I live in a safe blue district in a safe blue state, so there isn't really anything on the plate for me until 2008).

Don't just sit there grousing. Friggin' do something.

</rant>

[stpalm]

1. I would like to think it was stolen...

2000 absolutely was, but 2004 basically is filled with circumstantial evidence pointing to fraud.

[Cheswick2.0]

2. Yes I think it was stolen and I think we have all seen the evidence

and I don't see anything wrong with figuring out how to do it better in 2006 and 2008, but if you aren't considering insisting on paper ballots as one of the things we need to do, then you are missing the boat. No I won't STFU. Maybe you should take your own advice.

[journalist3072]

3. 2004 Election

I think there is every bit of evidence that the 2004 election was stolen. Now, if you are asking if there is evidence that Republican operatives where in a room together saying "let's steal this election," then we don't have that.

But, the evidence is clear that they tried to put up every single possible impediment to voting for those they felt would vote for John Kerry. And that is called voter suppression.

Let's look at the facts:

1. In Ohio, there were some predominatly Democratic, African-American neighborhoods (obviously Kerry's base) who did not receive an adequate number of voting machines, DESPITE a tremendous increase in voter registration. Following is a portion of a Washington Post article (Several Factors Contributed to 'Lost' Voters in Ohio, By Michael Powell and Peter Slevin):

She stood in line for four hours -- one hour in the rain -- and
watched dozens of potential voters mutter in disgust and walk away without
casting a ballot. Afterward, Thivener hopped in her car and drove to her
mother's house, in the vastly Republican and majority white suburb of
Harrisburg. How long, she asked, did it take her to vote?

Fifteen minutes, her mother replied.

"It was . . . poor planning," Thivener said. "County officials knew
they had this huge increase in registrations, and yet there weren't
enough machines in the city. You really hope this wasn't intentional."


2. On August 14, 2003 Walden O'Dell, Chief Executive of Diebold (maker of voting machines) wrote to Republicans in a fundraising letter that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." Now mind you, if someone at a voting machine company said they were committed to delivering a crucial swing state's electoral votes for John Kerry, that person would have been dragged before every single investigative committee possible on Capitol Hill.

3. I encourage everyone to read the article "Nobody should have to go through so much to vote" by Gail Williams, published on Salon.com http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/01/pollwatch/

4. Also check out "It will be worse than in 2000" from Salon.com http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/28/julian_bond/

5. Then check out "GOP dirty tricks in Ohio?" from Salon.com http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/09/ohio_voter_intimidation/

6. Then there is an article written by Karen Carrillo entitled "Voter suppression efforts mired election" http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9929&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

7. Another great article (though depressing) is "No smooth sailing at this precent" from the Miam Herald http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/10110287.htm?1c




Sorry for the lengthy post, but I wanted to provide some links to articles I have read regarding the voting fiasco. I don't think it is any accident at all that these atrocities occured in predominantly Democratic and minority neighborhoods. I also don't think it is any accident that Rep. Peter King (R-NY) is apparently on filmaker Alexandra Pelosi's second political documentary, talking about the election, saying "It's all over but the counting, and we'll take care of the counting."

I believe that the Republican modus operandi for this election (and it worked) was to slow down the process in overwhelming Democratic neighborhoods, to get Kerry voters so fustrated that they would leave without voting, which many did. Nobody has time to wait in line 4, 6, or 10 hours to vote, which some did.

[journalist3072]

4. More Amo

1. "Investigation Into Trashed Voter Registrations" http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2421595&nav=168XRvNe

[journalist3072]

5. And yet another...

"Voter receipts raise question of fraud" http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/9836814.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

[manic expression]

6. There's no paper trail

It is impossible to have a recount in the disputed areas. There really is no way to prove or disprove that claim.

[journalist3072]

7. Sen. Clinton

Which is why Sen. Hillary Clinton had sponsored legislation in the Senate which called for a paper trail for all electronic ballots. And as she noted during her speech in the Senate on Jan. 6, the Senate Republican leadership did nothing with that bill.