What would be your reaction to a e-mail prayer request for our troops?

[heidler1]

Mine was: In my opinion most of those who favored the war, including Bush, have now switching to "We have to stay the course" This nets out to more war and deaths of our troops and it isn't going to work anyway so bring them home now!

Praying for the safety of those that you put in harms way stinks.

If I was going to Pray, which I never do anyway, it would be for Bush to come to his senses and bring our boys home now. I would never pray directly or indirectly for the war to continue even one more day.

My Son's reply.
Your view is shallow and too harsh, not well thought out.

I don't believe you read the prayer request. Your interpretation that they are "Praying for war to continue, even one more day," is clouded by negativity. It is a prayer for safety of soldiers and a good outcome.

>
> Unlike Kerry, who said in August, that he would have voted for the war if he knew then what he knew in August, I believe the start of the war was, at best, premature. Unlike Kerry, if I was in the Senate I would have voted against starting the war. As I said, what should have been done then is a different debate than what should be done now. Your position seems to be that the outcome is hopeless and we should run away. The election should be given a chance. There is a possibility of a good outcome.

My reply
Kerry was wrong on that issue and he was labeled a flip flopper over it justifiably by Bush. There was no one running as a Democrat who could beat Bush at that time, but that does not mean that Bush was right IMO.

More of my Son's reply.
> Calling my statements downplaying deaths as minor would be one possible, though flawed, interpretation of what I was trying to say. I was reacting to the reports, which seem to have no historical perspective, of how awful the casualty rates have been in Iraq. Over 51k were killed in the three days in the battle of Gettysburg. Those calling our recent election the most important or divisive must be unaware of the elections of 1800, 1824 and 1876. Same with calling the OJ Simpson trial The Trial of the Century. I would have to believe the trail of Bruno Hauptman for kidnapping the Lindberg baby or Sacco-Venzetti seem to be unknown. I guess you missed my point. I am consistently annoyed at statements, especially by the press which become the common belief, that have no knowledge of history.


I think,
My son like a lot of people knows a lot about history, but decided to support invading Iraq anyway. I had written previously to remind him of this fact.

Comments please.

[bobweaver]

1. I'll only pray that they all be brought home RIGHT NOW, alive and well.

[toddzilla]

2. pray in one hand, crap in the other, see which one fills first.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I got that email

and promptly deleted it without comment. The person who sent it to me had already told me I didn't deserve to live or to vote here because of my religious/political beliefs, and I simply delete every email I get from her.

[heidler1]

8. I received it from my Niece who is very religious and R/W.

I sent my Sons a copy with my reply and that started it.

[K-W]

4. This is just disguised nationalism.

Pray for the end of war and the enlightenment of humanity. Dont choose sides in conflict born only of injustice.

[Solly Mack]

5. I'm always chanting, "let this madness stop"

which means:

stop the killing
end the invasion
bring the troops home
jail Shrub INC
try them for war crimes

and to slightly paraphrase Judge Roy Bean...give'em a fair trial then hang'em. (OK. It doesn't mean that but I couldn't resist)

is that so wrong? :)

[TWiley]

6. This is the way the religious absolve themselves from guilt.

It creates the desired level of denial, but their action of supporting this war in the first place still condemns them in spite of such superficial gestures.

Oh, sorry your leg is blown off and your brother is dead, lemme utter a few verbs and a noun with my eyes closed to provide relief.

[heidler1]

11. Exactly

[saltpoint]

7. Praying for troops suggests that God somehow --

-- favors one side over the other. Gods and goddesses were invoked at Troy, and it did way more harm than good. The carnage, if anything, was magnified. A friend of mine in Berkeley wears this button around town: "God Bless America shouldn't mean God Damn everyone else."

I think K-W's comment was right-on regarding nationalism.

[purduejake]

9. Prayer has never helped me or anybody I know...

other than it helps some clear the mind and find a mental state of peace. However, that doesn't do shit for the troops over in the pits of hell called Iraq. They should start praying for armor, if anything.

No offense to the religious, but I really don't think praying helps anybody other than yourself. edit: and that is a good reason to continue doing it if it works.

[Tigress DEM]

13. I always get what I pray for...

It's been a bit of a curse in a way.

Learned lessons on what NOT to pray for.

God isn't a short order cook.

If I pray for His Will in the situation then an answer appears that would have been beyond our puny mortal comprehension or ability to build consensus about.

My prayer wouldn't be just for the soldiers either, I am just as heartsick over the civilians in Iraq that have been murdered and the victims of torture by a nation that says one thing and does another.

Still, there are men and women who thought they were going over there to liberate the people, not oppress and murder them outright. They were lied to like the rest of us. And they will have to live with what they have done.

The spin doesn't work when the only place you can see the truth is in your enemy's eyes and it makes you realize your own government is the real enemy. I pray for those troops so they can come home and make different choices and heal along with the rest of us.

[purduejake]

21. That's really vague, though.

And by no means do I mean to attack you. I am just trying to understand. Why wouldn't it be the good hearts of people that eventually brings about change for the better instead of intervention from a god? Chances are that nothing can go bad or good all the time and I just don't understand how people can attribute change to God.

[Az]

10. Hands that help are better than lips that pray

I have no issue with holding positive thoughts in mind for people. But prayer is not going to help those dying over seas. If you want to help do something.

[murray hill farm]

12. In the mean time...........

pray for all those who are involved in..or caught in...or trapped in...or suffering from..or dying in...this war or any war..pray for world peace and the personal peace of all who are personally subject to the pain of this war...including those who fight in the wars..all sides. pray that peace evolves and that the insanity of war ends. A prayer is just a thought of love..a wish of well and peace that originates in your own mind and heart..and that you send out from your own heart...that is a prayer.

[Az]

14. And I have no problem with that

But doing something to make it happen is still superior. I too can hold hopeful thoughts on matters and often do. But recognise that action changes things more than hoping does.

[ultraist]

17. Faith without works...

Well said! But faith without works is an empty gesture.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Tigress DEM]

15. Throw some feet in there and get it moving

Not necessary to stop praying just because your hands are helping and your feet are moving you along to where your help is needed.

[onecent]

16. kick

[JitterbugPerfume]

18. I would

delete it

prayer does nothing but make the Pray-er feel smug and good

[AutumnMist]

23. Just A Thought

From someone who prays....Including meditation on our environment and other things...I don't do it because I feel superior. Prayer and Meditation can impact and help many people/situations. Foot work is also helpful in the big picture of world suffering. I think the issue should be, if it would help the people who want prayer (there are many) then do it. If you are not one who follows/believes in prayer, what can you do or should you do for others?

[Az]

24. The point I suspect

Is that many that turn to prayer in dire times believe they have accomplished something in the prayer itself. As if God would not have noticed the tradgedy if their prayers had not been offered. This is offensive to those that see that something real needs to be done. Prayer in and of itself accomplishes nothing (or so it would seem). Relying on prayer as being demonstative of your concern for a matter is the problem.

[AutumnMist]

25. Actually..

I dont pray or meditate in just "dire" times. I do it daily. For all things. That was my point. How do you measure what I have done through prayer or otherwise? Maybe it has done nothing for you...thats fine...I respect that. But you cannot measure or assume that it has done nothing for all people. But you also cannot assume that people who pray havent actually done something. In terms of foot work, donations, or otherwise. Nor do I assume that all pray or meditate. Its fine with me. But to make it nothing, just like christians who have a problem with those that dont pray/meditate, is not right. We all have the right to our own beliefs and our own actions to help.

[Az]

26. Nuance

There is a difference between those that derive personal direction and insite by means of meditation and prayer and those that believe that their prayers are enough to change the circumstances of those in need. Some problems can seem insurmountable to us and only through extended periods of introspection can we come to a conclusion as to what is the best course for us to act on. But that is a world away from presuming that the mere act of prayer has done something to solve a problem.

[AutumnMist]

28. I Guess

"But that is a world away from presuming that the mere act of prayer has done something to solve a problem."

That depends on your beliefs in prayer or meditation. That is up to the individual to decide if they are doing something, and what they believe.

[heidler1]

30. Yes you have the right to believe in prayer, but

IMO
You do not have the right to expect others to agree. You do not have the right to believe that people who have great immediate needs like food or health problems are now nourished or cured because of your prayer. For the prayer could very easily be interpreted as an accomplishment when it is more apt to be of zero real worth.

Can prayer persuade God not to unleash a tsunami that causes 200,000 deaths? Can you get God to reveal why he/she did it in the first place?
Yes, very mysterious ways. Will Heaven be subject to these same mysterious ways.

[AutumnMist]

33. IMHO

You missed my point. I have never stated that all should or have to agree with me. Please read my posts and see what I was saying. Please!I never said prayer was the answer or the cure of all problems. You misread what my intention was. The fact that I said that I prayed and/or meditated does not make me judgemental and/or oblivious to what is or has gone on in our society. Worldwide or right at home. I have worked in homeless shelters, done needle exchanges and worked in HIV clinics for years. Don't lecture me about real worth within society. I have opened my doors to all walks of life and considered us equals. No matter what. But then again you didn't ask me that did you? Because just like that which you judge to be true....you are not far from what you point fingers at...right?

[heidler1]

41. I'm sorry that you felt that I was aiming my response at you.

I was aiming at the illegal use of just prayer by some who do believe that it is all powerfull.

[liberalmuse]

19. The only way prayer's get answered...

is if you pray for evil to happen, because 98% of the time, it will. Pray for injustice. Pray that human beings stay callous and ignorant. Pray that your country will kill innocent human beings in a trumped up war. Pray that Bush will never face the consequences of his actions. THOSE are the prayers that get answered. You know why? There is no god, and if there is, he's a fucking sadist who wanks off at human misery.

[JitterbugPerfume]

20. Does the Bible not say

by their DEED you shall know them? Prayer accomplishes nothing DEEDS are what counts

[purduejake]

22. Just because prayers don't work...

doesn't mean there isn't a god. It doesn't mean there is one, either. I'm agnostic because there is no way I can know one way or the other with our current understanding. Saying there is no god is just as informed as people who insist there is one. I know this is a sensitive subject, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to anybody. I want everybody to believe in what works for them and am not here to change minds... I just want some understanding.

[ultraist]

27. Supernatural beings

I agree, no one "knows" if there is a God. Personally, I do not believe in God as an anthromorphic figure or in other mystical beings, such as angels. Religion has served an important purpose for societies, but it has also been abused and used to yield power over others.

Einstein did not believe in God in the traditional religious sense, but considered the laws of the universe, that Einstein refers to as a "spirit" to be a power greater than all humankind.

Einstein's letter in response to "belief in prayer."

"I have tried to respond to your question as simply as I could. Here is my answer. Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.

However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research. But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. As someone who lost a family member there, I pray for their safety daily.

I don't want anyone's family to have to undergo what my family did and still is...

[purduejake]

31. I'm sorry for your loss.

I can't imagine what you and your family must be going through, but I hope you can still find peace, happiness, and healing. Take care.

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. Thank you.

:hug:

[TankLV]

34. I pray that they are all brough home as quickly as possible & bunkerboy

is removed from power without any further delay any way possible, and is put in chains behind bars with the rest of his family and gang of criminals.

That is what I pray every waking moment.

[beam me up scottie]

35. I live in a red state and work with

* supporters.
Last week I found out my brother will be sent to iraq. One of my co-workers said he'd pray for him. It bugged the crap out of me but I couldn't figure out why until just now. Should I have said I would rather you hadn't voted for an insecure, cowboy wanna-be with size issues, therefore voting to continue the war which was started by said cowboy wanna-be because you helped install him four years ago? Thanks for nothing!

[heidler1]

39. I feel that those who helped put this war in motion should have their feet

held to the fire. Sure I know they just thought they were being nice, but it stinks. It's like pushing someone down a flight of stairs and then praying that they won't get hurt in the fall.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Thanks.

The total arrogance of * supporters saying they support the troops and pray for them when if it hadn't been for them the troops wouldn't be in Iraq at all. How do they justify such hypocrisy? I say put your money where your mouth is, join the army today. See for yourself if oil is worth dying for.

[FlemingsGhost]

36. "Yeah ... though I walk through the valley of death, I fear no evil"

Keeping praying, America.

[allalone]

37. aarrgghh

I get this type email all the time from 1 person. She also sends these lame obviously fake stories about soldiers, etc. I've begged her repeatedly to take me off her list but no result. I've known her for many years and hate to block her, but egad.

[allalone]

38. prayers are just wishes

and if wishes were horses , then beggars would ride. Go ahead and flame me, but magical thinking doesn't work in my opinion.