The Ten Commandents and fundamentalists

[Bluzmann57]

First of all, I want to say that the 10 commandents are the single greatest set of rules, guidelines, or whatever one wants to call them ever written. Every religion in the world has some form of them. And "Thou Shalt not Kill" is always at the top of the list. So why do the fundamentalists advocate war and the death penalty?
Lying, cheating, and stealing are also mentioned in the guidelines, as I am going to call them, and yet the "religious" right do those very things. Falwell, Robertson, seemingly all of the so called leaders of the "moral" majority, or whatever they call themselves now. Most of us try to raise our children by a set of morals and rules as outlined by the guidelines, and make sure they realize what's right and what's not, even by punishing them if necessary. But when they are bombarded every day with all the lies and propaganda, "kill all who oppose you", "Win at all costs, even if you have to cheat to do it", "Its ok to spread half truths as long as it helps us get ahead(swift boat liars)".
This stuff does not send any kind of good message to our children. It goes directly against the guidelines. And yet, in another remarkable lie, its always the Liberals fault when a person goes on a killing spree, or a vile piece of dogcrap rapes children. It must be because the "dirty Liberals" won't allow the guidelines to be posted in public places, at least not on taxpayer owned property. Well, I'm sorry, but the responsibility often goes back to 1- the guidance the child recieves growing up and 2- the person him or herself. Look in the mirror fundies. We are not always right, but at least we are trying to raise our children with REAL moral values, as outlined by the ten commandents. The obvious conclusion one must draw is that the fundies aren't Christians at all. They are just greedy selfish pieces of crap.

[BOSSHOG]

1. And on the other side of your great argument

is the stuff in the bible which is not promoted by the zealots. They hate homosexuals based on Leviticus, but in that book it also states that those who work on the Sabbath should be stoned to death. It must be handy to pick and choose which "religious" line you will use to support your actions. Also, in this red state (Mississippi) there is no cause for alarm about the rates of divorce, incest, spousal abuse and teen pregnancy. No, the local zealots spend their energy hating others, in the name of Jesus.

[readmylips]

2. My super conservative Christian neighbor....

She loves to brag about flying the largest American flag in the neighborhood. What she doesn't say is that she stold that flag from her place of work and she was fired.

Christian? She never goes to church, has a potty mouth, gets drunk and chases other men even in front of her husband. She's the neighbor from hell.

[ignatzmouse]

3. Conscience and Morality

The problem is that morality must come from an intrinsic realization, the conscience, and not from an extraneous code. The conscience is innate to consciousness because via our analogical minds we inherently place ourselves in the place of the other. We take into ourselves the emotional experience of another's suffering or joy, crying or laughing together through this ability of consciousness to place itself metaphorically in the other person's shoes. The conscience within consciousness is the real source of our morality. It is the essence of humanity.

On the other hand, morality that is based on culture and the precedent of a religion has the potential to suffer a disconnect from the conscience. Doctrine often prescribes that one act against one's conscience. Exodus and Deuteronomy are filled with other laws given by God including death for killing one's neighbor but only admonishment for beating to death's one slave -- and no punishment at all if the poor slave happens to live a day or two after the beating, death for swearing at one's parents, etc. It's even granted that if you're in war and smiting this way and that and you happen to spot a beautiful girl whose family you've slaughtered - ummm, you can take her for your own. If she's not beautiful, then just tell her to get lost. God's word.

The point is that morality based upon a society's code or a religion whose moral code was set down in the society of its time is flimsy because the mores of societies change -- for both good and bad. Religious morality is particularly susceptible to manipulation because the people of later generations can pick and choose which codes are valid according to their own prejudices. An "eye for an eye" or "do unto others"? When we base morality on something extrinsic, the good and the bad get mixed up and we become in danger of losing our true morality, the intrinsic connection to the suffering of others.

[bdot]

4. Killing vs war

I'm starting to think that people who are against killing but for war do not realize that people get killed in war.

I got in an arguement with my dad about this. I pointed out the Bible is against killing. He said but there are wars in the Bible therefore war is OK.
Basically he is stuck in the Old Testament.

[RUDUing2]

5. because it is a mistranslation...it is Thou shall not commit premeditated

murder...which is different from killing...and has nothing to do w/governmental issues, but w/strictly personal rules..

My big gripe is that the fundies are foaming at the mouth cause Clinton broke the 7th commandment (adultery), but they don't have a problem w/Bush breaking 9 & 10 (bearing false witness and coveting that which belongs to your neighbor) in regards to Iraq.

[MadHound]

6. And even so,

I would say that the Iraq war was premeditated murder, so include that in your list also.

[RUDUing2]

9. but it deals w/a government issue, not a personal one. The

10 Commandments were for people to live by in their daily life not meant to be used by governments...Jesus made a point of seperating religious law and Secular law (too bad the fundie convieniently overlook that little detail)...

[Jackie97]

7. I have to admit.

The holier than thou thing from fundamentalists is getting on my nerves a little bit.

Those people can't even keep their own marriages together as well as more secular people can. Seriously. That was proven years ago. I think the reason they can't keep their damn marriages together is because they still believe in the man dominating the woman. They don't have the MORAL value that it takes to actually work through the problems on a basis that makes them both equals. No wonder they feel threatened by gay marriages. The fundamentalist marriage is already an endangered species. They don't need anymore "problems" like gay people possibly also proving to be able to keep a marriage together bettter than they can. LOL.

I can get as self-righteous as they can. Maybe we should talk to them more often like this so they can get a taste of their own medicine.

Okay, I don't mean it that nasty. I don't want to persecute fundamentalists. I do think it's time to start calling attention where they do lack in morals though just to get the point across that 1) Their politics are the problem and 2) They have no right to point the finger at anybody else regarding morals.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. REAL moral values, as outlined by the ten commandments?

What REAL moral values are found in not rendering graven images? Not taking the name of the Lord in vain? Not working on the Sabbath? Not desiring others property or lifestyle? Only worshipping the Judeo-Xian god?

[DARE to HOPE]

10. Dear friends, don't forget how ANCIENT this is...

Okay, it may sound strange to our ears about graven images and all, but the first half of the Ten Commandments, about our relationship with God, was really such a breathtaking change in human history.

Instead of looking down, and holding "god" in our hands, we are urged to look up, and see God all around the beauteous world (especially at the top of mountains, to be sure.) :-)

As to not working on the Sabbath, what a concept for today's 24/7 exhausted lifestyle!

The God of the Bible is also the God of the Muslims as well as Christians and Jews, even if their fundamentalists are also stuck in ancient thinking that is warlike. But the new concept, worked out in books like Jonah, was that God is God over all the world, not just "my" little part.

My own 2003 anti-war banner read:

"Thou shalt NOT KILL, Mr. Bush!

Thou shalt NOT STEAL Iraq's oil!

Thou shalt NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS to the American people!!"


BTW--we are so spoiled after Guttenberg. But have any of you seen pieces of the ancient scrolls? The Dead Sea scrolls exhibit came to Chicago a few years ago. Truly, truly awesome. When this copy of OT books was found in 1946 in those jars in the caves, this became the EARLIEST copy of the Bible that we have. The OLDEST copy before that was 1000 years AFTER Christ.

God is vivid, palpable to me, loving, creative, longsuffering, but righteous and undergirding all righteousness and truth.

"The Bible tells me so."

[Modem Butterfly]

11. It's not that I don't think some of the 10 Commandments are good ideas...

I just have a problem with the fact that some of the 10 being good ideas means that ALL of the 10 should be forced on everyone, regardless of their own personal beliefs and our Constitutional rights. After all, people still have the right to worship, or not worship, whomever however they please on whatever day they please. They also have the right to make whatever graven images they want and speak to their parents as they see fit. And as for the coveting part, well, our entire economy is based on coveting, isn't it?

[Bluzmann57]

12. How is our economy based on coveting?

In a capitalist society a person may have a great idea for a thingamajig, patent it, market it, sell millions of them, and get rich. What the person chooses to do with all the profits is up to them. It is unfortunate that a majority of wealthy people support non progressive causes, but again, it is their money and they can do with it what they want. Capitalism in theory is still the best ecvonomic system there is. So exactly where does the coveting come in? Yes, I'd like to have the Mustang down the street, yes I'd like to have a few other things. But since I don't, I guess either I'll have to work more overtime, get a part time job, or come up with a good idea and sel a lot of stuff. I don't think wanting my neighbor's Mustang makes it coveting it though. And there is certainly nothing wrong with working for things one wants.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Coveting = Wanting

To covet something is to desire it. If no one desires your product, no one will buy it. If no one desires anything, no one will buy anything. Our capitalist society has to nuture and encourage coveting in order to sell more and more things to more and more people.

When you say you want your neighbor's mustang, you are coveting your neighbor's ass (ironic metaphor, no?). Fortunately, you channel that desire into working to obtain a similar vehicle. But it's still coveting.

[DARE to HOPE]

15. Coveting=wanting to the point of jealousy,

to the point of even seizing it.

Lusting after your neighbor's wife, or car, or life, or "luck" or friends, or "breaks" or career is a sad way to go through life.

And what does all of our materialism teach our children?

Put up for yourselves REAL treasure instead.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. Well, that's your interpretation

The word derives from the Latin word for desire:

Middle English coveiten, from Old French coveitier, from covitie, desire, from Latin cupidits, from cupidus, desirous, from cupere, to desire

I submit that what we're talking about, covetousness, desire, envy, jealously, call it what you want, is essentially the same emotion, differently expressed. You want your neighbor's mustang so badly you're willing to work lots of OT and maybe even take a second job to afford one just like it. Someone else may want it so badly they steal it (or another just like it).

In any event, the 10 Commandments use the term "covet" without comment on the nuanced meaning of the term. It's a great example of how the Commandments work in a Judeo-Xian religious frame of reference but are not, as a whole, applicable elsewhere.

[DrWeird]

14. People who say such things usually have no idea

what all the ten commandments are.

[geniph]

16. The Gospels condemn greed in many, many places

yet have not one mention of the EEEEVUL that is loving one's own gender. All the mentions of homosexuality take place somewhere other than in the words of Christ.

By the way, there's way more than 10 mitzvot (commandments). There's hundreds. The 10 was just a convenient bit of shorthand.

These modern right-wing Pharisees have glorified the accumulation of wealth, despite Christ's explicit condemnation of it on multiple occasions. They choose to focus on sins that Christ never once alluded to. Pharisees! Pfaugh!

[tives12]

17. i've tried making that argument to the conservatives

I made that argument about the 10 commandments. I went onto freerepublic.com and posted on the message boards arguing the democrats sides. But they were extremely quick to point out that it's "thou shall not murder". But they had no even semi-decent argument against me.


If anybody wants to post on that website, get ready to be kicked off fast. But I must say it is pretty fun. They really hate us over there. I posted this morning and got 49 replies within 5 minutes. So I'm encouraging people to start posting things over there. Perhaps we can coordinate something where we all post things on the same day. I can't do it from this computer though, because they've blocked my ip address. They've also blocked the ip address at my high school as well. Only place left is the public library.


So please go post over there. You become pretty popular and it's funny to see how pissed off they get over some things as simple as a quote from Teddy Roosevelt.