China says US dollar is 'no longer a stable currency'

[Bluebear]

(But at least them filthy gays can't marry, as the dollar becomes the new peso or ruble. Thanks Smirk! Thanks, Smirk voters!)


===
DAVOS, Switzerland - China has lost faith in the stability of the U.S. dollar and its first priority is to broaden the exchange rate for its currency from the dollar to a more flexible basket of currencies, a top Chinese economist said Wednesday at the World Economic Forum.

At a standing-room only session focusing on the world's fastest-growing economy, Fan Gang, director of the National Economic Research Institute at the China Reform Foundation, said the issue for China isn't whether to devalue the yuan but "to limit it from the U.S. dollar."...

"The U.S. dollar is no longer — in our opinion is no longer — (seen) as a stable currency, and is devaluating all the time, and that's putting troubles all the time," Fan said, speaking in English.

"So the real issue is how to change the regime from a U.S. dollar pegging ... to a more manageable ... reference ... say Euros, yen, dollars — those kind of more diversified systems," he said. "If you do this, in the beginning you have some kind of initial shock," Fan said. "You have to deal with some devaluation pressures."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050126/ap_on_bi_ge/world_forum_china_2

[redqueen]

1. $&#@!

Oh, but wait... having the dollar's value decline precipitously was something bush meant to do, right? Okay then!

All is well. No reason to worry. Go back to sleep.

[Bluebear]

6. This is gonna be BIG trouble

The markets will be fun to watch tomorrow. Those market investments that Bush wants to replace Social Security with.

[redqueen]

16. I just hope and pray that seniors are paying attention!

I worry they'll fall for bushco's snake oil again... or worse... what if most Americans don't, but the bastard congresspeople go along anyway? Nevermind... that's a discussion for another thread.

[ooglymoogly]

114. i don't think bush is so delusional that he has the seniors

he is after the younger people who are paying into ss now. he aims to pit them against the seniors by telling them their contribs are useless.

[The Political Amazon]

31. Bush's Latest Serving of Depression Pie: Let's stroll down Memory Lane

(NOTE: For an analysis of the state of our economy, and the threat we face, view the post "Bush's Latest Serving of Depression Pie:...IWF")

All of the cards are in play for a depression to make the "Great Depression" look like a little recession dip!

Let's take a stroll down memory lane and see how America's economic condition before the Great Depression compares to our economic condition now.

From 1920 to 1929 the value of farmland fell from 30% to 40%.

We had the equivalent of "jobs going overseas" during that decade, with the unemployment being the "structural unemployment," the wost an economy can have. During the 1920s, however, it was technological advancement that replaced 200,000 workers a year.

By 1929, after a decade of mega-merger frenzy, 200 corporations controlled over half of American industry, because 1200 mergers ate up 6000 previously independent companies.

By the end of the decade, the richest 1% of our nation controlled 40% of our wealth.

During that decade, using the fear of unemployment and failing economy (much like currently the Bush White House is using fear of terrorism), first US Supreme Court struck down child-labor protections, then the Supreme Court nullified minimum wage for women in Washington, D.C.

The highest-income tax rate was lowered 25%, and the Supreme Court ruled that "trade-organizations" do not violate antitrust laws as long as minimal competition continues.

By 1929, over half of Americans were living below substinence level.

And this is when the Bush/Cheneys' of that era started reaping what they had sown...

Because, with people like you and me being unable to buy, inventories in these rich fat-cats' factories remained unsold. The demand for goods fell to nothing. Car sales fell one-third in the months before the crash. Construction was drastically decreased.

In August, 2 months before the crash, the recession started. But--DUE TO THE CONTORTION OF THE ECONOMY BY OUR COUNTRY'S LEADERS--it could not straighten itself out (back then the belief was that the economy was magic and that as long as wages and prices were allowed to rise and fall as they would, that the economy would sort it out; the Great Depression proved them wrong).

And 1930 was a "good year," compared to what happened later.

In 1932 the unemployment rate rose to over 23%, and the GNP fell a record-breaking 13+%. Industrial stocks had lost 80% of their value since 1930, and since 1929 10,000 banks had failed (40% of the number of banks in 1929). The GNP fell over 30% since 1929.

Do you recognize the pattern that led up to the economy's collapse in 1929? You should, because that is the Bush/Cheney fiscal policies staring you straight in the face.

We are looking at some scary times ahead. The 1929 collapse shifted populations over thousands of miles, as they left starvation and moved to where there was hope for survival (largely off of farms). Without people manning the farms, our ability to provide for ourselves exponentially decreases.

You know what I think of when I think of the Great Depressoin? This:




Ironically, this picture was taken less than 10 miles from where I now live.

I truly believe that, before Bush and his fellow war-profiteers are done with our economy, the plight of this migrant mother during the Depression will be seen all across our country.

I think we can assume at this point that any Bush appointee to Secretary of the Treasury will do nothing to stop Bush's destruction of our country's economy. Bush has already drop-kicked any reasonable voice from the Treasury. ANY cabinet member that showed ANY twinge of conscience or responsibility to Americans, which led to their objecting to some of Bush's failed policy measures, was their guaranteed ticket home.

[The Political Amazon]

33. Economist Warns of Economic 'Armageddon'

(QUOTE): Economic `Armageddon' predicted By Brett Arends/ On State Street Tuesday, November 23, 2004.
Stephen Roach, the chief economist at investment banking giant Morgan Stanley, has a public reputation for being bearish. But you should hear what he's saying in private. Roach met select groups of fund managers downtown last week, including a group at Fidelity. His prediction: America has no better than a 10 percent chance of avoiding economic ``armageddon....''
(END OF QUOTE)

I think Mr. Roach is correct. The economy has been contorted to such an extent that the usual policies that the President/Congress would usually use to get it back into balance probably won't work.

Specifically, the wealth of the nation has been shifted to such an extent that consumers don't have the funding or resourcing to do what it needs to do after the government's attempt to either stimulate (by measures to decrease unemployment), or slow down (by measures to decrease the rate of price increase to stave off an inflation)the economy to stabilize it.

Normally, these measures don't stop a recession or inflation from happening (recession and inflation are part of a normal business cycle, to some extent), but to make them less severe so the averge American will still be able to, once it's over, return to consuming.

The handwriting was on the wall, really, in the first Bush tax cut because people like me and you didn't SPEND that whopping $300 advanced to us. Tax cuts are usually done to stimulate consumers to consume more and, therefore, increase the GDP.

People didn't spend the $300 because they were worried about paying down debt, doctor bills, etc. In other words, they had to use the $300 to get caught up and so couldn't spend it on goods.

Because so many of our jobs have been shipped overseas, the unemployment we have is structural, which is the worst kind of unemployment to have. Structural unemployment means there are people who have skills, ability, and want to work at a job similar to their previous employment, but there are no jobs for them.

This was what happened to Flynt, MI when they shut down the plants and the workers--who were perfectly able to do the job they worked at before--suddenly found themselves without a job, and without the skills to find employment.

I think, if we were more observant, we would have looked at Michael Moore's movie and saw it as the sentinel warning us of what was to come on a massive scale.

Sorry, I went on and on...I've just been very worried about what is going to happen to us after the economy slides into toilet...

[leesa]

63. Nice post and welcome.

[proudbluestater]

71. Welcome Political Amazon! Thanks for your astute observations

Do you have ANY idea why Bushco will not curb their spending? Why they continue to go down the path to war after war? Do they not care about the economic collapse? Do they not care that when they are done, the country will be in ruins? I would welcome any theories you might have.

As Seymour Hersh said this morning, we should be selling our stock and buying property in Italy. He predicts collapse in about a year.

Of course, the rich MOFO's already have their homes in Europe, don't they? We who are not among the richest 1% will be left to pick up the pieces.

Bush should ROT in HELL.

[txaslftist]

93. rapture's comin' y'all... not ta worry.

[robertpaulsen]

101. Hey proudbluestater, do you have a link to the Hersh comments?

I'm a big fan of Hersh and like to keep a file of everything he says which almost always turns out to accurately have the jump on everyone else in the world. If he's predicting economic collapse in about a year, it's a near certainty.

[xpat]

110. Hersh predicted collapse at the end of this interview

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/26/1450204

It's in the last paragraph.

[robertpaulsen]

116. Thanks xpat! Hersh is right, pricing oil in Euros will be the key event.

Then the ensuing economic nosedive will only get steeper.

God help us.

[newyawker99]

77. Hi The Political Amazon!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Acryliccalico]

82. Welcome Political Amazon

:kick:

[Mountainman]

35. Wasn't she one of those caught in the dust bowl migration to CA?

She eventually moved to Fresno and bought a house and her girls grew up. There are pictures of them from much later on.

She was in Nipomo to pick the pea crop but there was a frost the night before and they had no work that day. There car had a flat and her husband went to get it fixed while she and the kids waited in the tent.

D. Lange stopped there and asked to take here picture. There are a couple more.

We have "Dust Bowl" days here in Bakersfield at the Weedpatch camp which was in the film "Grapes of Wrath"

I am very interested in this period and this history. There are many good books about it.

A good one is about the Weedpatch school were the children learned trades and broke out of poverty.

These people were so poor that they didn't talk to each other about it because everyone else was as bad off as they were.

I can see it happening again.

[The Political Amazon]

38. Yes, that's her

Yes, that's her.

And I agree with you--we may very well face those conditions in our future, because I truly don't believe that the politicians in Washington will lift a finger to minimize the impact on us, the masses.

[proudbluestater]

72. That's what comes from electing rich politicians. Conversely,

it often takes a rich person to be able to get into office in the first place.

[Ms. Clio]

59. Of course, at the time, what was most horrifying

about that, and similar photos, for many Americans was the color of her skin.

What shocked white America to its core was the sight of so many other whites struggling with the desperate, impoverished circumstances they associated with African Americans and Mexican Americans and other minority groups.

Perhaps only something approaching that level of catastrophe will have any impact at all on this nation.

[grasswire]

68. Ladies and Gentlemen....

...we have in our midst one of the true Internet warriors for truth.

If you haven't seen www.politicalamazon.com, go there now.

PA and I go back to the days of the ACLU's Free Speech Zone on AOL. Gad! A long time!

[gasperc]

84. Hersh stated this the other day

he probably has inside knowledge

I'm going to have to accelerate my new house purchase before interest rates soar

[xpat]

107. You'd be smarter to sell

before the real estate bubble bursts.

[Selteri]

2. What a surprise.

Like rats leaving a sinking ship, so are those countries that base upon the dollar.

[MadHound]

3. Get ready for the perfect economic storm

Sounds like China is getting ready to start selling off dollars, and possibly calling in US debt. This will lead quickly to the complete collapse of the US economy, with a depression that will make the thirties look like the roaring twenties.

Pay off your credit cards, pay down your mortage as much as possible, pay off your car loan, and be prepared to do without. The shit is soon going to be hitting the fan.

[Zeke]

17. The Repo Depot...

When Bush Inc & USA cannot make the payments
on money's owed, and interest, to China, I
predict China will repo-depot a place called
Taiwan to settle the debt owed them.

And with the US arrmy spread thin,
nothing will stop China from this.

[The Political Amazon]

34. If We Default on Our Loans,the IWF Will Step In--Then We are Toast

Paying down debt is always good advice, and even more so now, but if China refuses to loan any more money to us we may very well go into default on the loans we already have (the majority of which we are paying interest only).

If that happens, it triggers the IWF stepping in, and they will make changes that will make us yearn for the economic wealth of countries like Bangladesh.

If the new world leaders (and if the IWF steps in, we will no longer even be in the running) decide to take advantage of the situation, they can literally starve us out.

One of the things the IWF does is allow other countries' corporate giants to take over our publicly owned facilities. They can force sales of our farmland to foreign concerns, and then we will no longer have ANY voice in where the food is shipped to.

And that's just one of the possible scenarios we face.

Again, BE SURE to thank the Democratic politicians who aided Bush in the destruction of our economy. THEY will all be taken care of (in fact, they will probably profit from the privatization of farmland and publically-owned facilities). It's US, the common Joes and JOsephinas, who will suffer.

[robertpaulsen]

45. Sorry if I sound confused, but what is the IWF?

Are you referring to the IMF - International Monetary Fund? Don't mean to get nitpicky, but I've never heard of the IWF and I thought that might be who you're referring to.

And I agree with what you're saying. Taking all of this into account with the spectre of Peak Oil looming in the foreground makes me think the Depression of the 30's may look like a drop in the bucket compared to what lies ahead.

[Oreo]

4. No need for China to attack us militarily...

shrub is doing a fine job lining us up to just be purchased by the rest of the world.

Rate it up!

[The Political Amazon]

41. GLobe is better off with America as a stable economic force

The only reason countries invade other countries is to gain access to their resources (including oil and water in Iraq).

China, and other countries, have far more to gain from America being solvent, and under good leadership, than for us to be taken over by the IWF.

If America defaults on her loans, it will cause economic instability around the globe. That's never a good thing.

The reason the IWF was created was because the U.S. blindly sailed into The Great Depression, and it destabilized many countries to the brink of failure, as well.

It seems pretty obvious that Bush, the GOP, and their pals in the Democratic Party are dead-set on America crashing into another Great Depression. They will profit if this occurs. We won't. In fact, some of us will not survive it.

[aneerkoinos]

76. Globe

Globe would be better off without Gringolandia. Period. No Gringolandia would do wonders stalling the Climate Change and Energy Crisis.

Gringolandia has become nothing but a malignant tumor.

[tubbacheez]

5. this could be profoundly huge.

This move by China could start a global dumping of dollars.

If people thought the dotcom bubble was bad, this would be even bigger of a burst.

[The Political Amazon]

37. It's Gonna' Be Bad--No "Could Be" About It

It's going to be bad--there's no "could be" about it.

I don't think any of us have a clue about how bad it can be.

What scares me is that we have seen Bush, the GOP politicians and most of the Democratic politicians repeatedly sacrifice what is good for the country to enrich themselves and their fellow Elites.

If the IWF steps in and takes over, these politicians will do very well. But We, the People WILL suffer, and could suffer far more than any of us would have ever anticipated.

What I'm saying is that the leadership in Washington, D.C. will do what it has done all along--look out for themselves and their fellow Elites even if it means turnign their backs on America and its citizens.

There simply will not be the leadership we need in Washington to minimize, as much as possible, what the masses will suffer, should we crash into a Depression.

This should be a very good Object Lesson to the Democratic Party voters who have continued to vote for these Democratic Party politicians whose top priority was serving Bush and other Elites, and completely ignoring the impact on how We, the People, will suffer.

I think the best way to try to save us, the masses, is to get organized and start recall elections of every one of the Democratic politicians who are acting as Bush's servants. If we change the power structure to one in which the masses will be at least considered in any policy decisions, we have a chance to minimize how WE will suffer.

[clem_c_rock]

119. EXACTLY! I try to bring up democrats complicity in other posts

And I get ripped to shreds. Most Democratic party members will vote right wing in order to not endanger their careers. Most of these ***holes voted for the Iraq war. Most of these ***holes voted for policies like NAFTA that are partly responsible for this impending doom.

Sorry folks, Democrats are practically just as much to blame for this upcoming crash as the Repukes. The repukes only accelerated it.

[Ruby Romaine]

7. kick

[Bozita]

8. If China dumps their dollars, ...

Don't even think about it.

Scary, bigtime.

[Bluebear]

10. The Bush family has long ties with China's business structure

I'm sure their assets are secure, no worries.

[Bozita]

23. Is it brother Neil or Marvin who is on the board of a Chinese chip co?

Right alongside of the Chinese premier's son.

[KamaAina]

51. Poppy Bush was Carlyle's senior Asia advisor

right up until the words 'Bush" and "Carlyle" started to be uttered together in public, that is.

[cosmicdot]

67. Neil; and, of course, there's Uncle Prescott doing his thing ...

US: Bush's Brother Has Contract to Help Chinese Chip Maker

by Warren Vieth and Lianne Hart, Los Angeles Times
November 27th, 2003


WASHINGTON - Neil Bush, a younger brother of President Bush, has a $400,000-a-year contract to provide business advice to a Chinese computer chip manufacturer, according to court documents.

At the same time the Bush administration is promising to crack down on alleged trade abuses by the Chinese, Neil Bush has agreed to strategize with China's Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp., the documents show.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=9231

the Bush Clan have no shame and no problem selling us down the river ... they're retaliating for business loss for trading with Nazi Germany ...



http://www.usccc.org/Current/mem-b.htm


02/18/2002 - Updated 10:33 PM ET


President's uncle shares Bush family ties to China

By Debbie Howlett, USA TODAY



CHICAGO — When President Bush arrives in Beijing on Thursday, he'll embrace a policy that's something of a family tradition.

Bush's approach centers on promoting U.S.-China economic ties. That's a course favored not only by his father, the first President Bush, but also by his uncle, Prescott Bush Jr., a longtime acquaintance of Chinese President Jiang Zemin.

The Bush family's ties to China go back to 1974, when President Nixon named George Bush ambassador to China. The college-age George W. Bush spent two months in China visiting his parents during his father's two-year stint.

Seven years after his brother left the ambassadorial post, Prescott Bush made his first trip to China. He later joined with Japanese partners in 1988 to build a golf course in Shanghai, the first in China. He met Jiang, who was then the mayor of Shanghai.

Prescott Bush, now 79, also developed a close working relationship with Rong Yiren, a former trade minister and vice president, who in 1993 introduced Bush to a group of Chinese business leaders as "an old friend." In 2000, Forbes publications reported that Rong, who has retired from government, was the richest man in China.
~snip~

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/02/19/usat-prescott-bush.htm


Wonder what Uncle Prescott had to say in his speech in 2003:

JANUARY 2003


China: Its impact on the US economy will be addressed by Prescott S. Bush, Jr., founder of Prescott Bush Resources, Ltd., at the Chamber's annual economic luncheon, Friday, January 24, 2003, at the Milbrook Club, 12 noon to 1:30 p.m. UBS PaineWebber is sponsoring the luncheon.


http://www.greenwichchamber.com/archive/jan2003/index.asp

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. hmm this is significant

It's probably at least 10 years before the objective of the government of 50 of the largest 500 companies in the world being Chinese" is achieved, he said.


---------------------

Hold on to your hats folks... way too many warnigns, and China has defeated us at our own game

[Bozita]

12. Yup, they hate us for our ... capitalism.

[The Political Amazon]

39. They hate us for our president;they will dump our loans because of economy

China is in a difficult position. No one wins if America defaults on its loans (which it may end up doing if China refuses to extend us any more credit--because I doubt any other country will now). Americans are huge, grossly gluttonous consumers of goods. If we cannot consume, the entire developed world will feel the effects of it.

But China cannot risk letting Bush take them into the toilet along with America. They have to think to the stability of their own economy.

And we simply do not have the leadership in Washington to get us out of this without some very bad consequences--which will almost all mainly impact people like you and me, not the politicians in Washington who have created (and this includes the Bush-serving Democratic politicians) this economic disaster.

[Bozita]

43. Good post, Amazon --- welcome to DU

Well done.

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. Could be good for US Manufacturing

While there are some major negatives in the short term. A increase in the value of the Yuan vs Dollar has some bright spots.

[Bluebear]

13. Yeah at Chinese wages

As the desparate work for whatever they can earn to put food on their family.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. As Opposed to?

being out of work?

[Bluebear]

18. I don't consider that life change a "bright spot"

"Will work for food" 1929 style.

[One_Life_To_Give]

20. Sooner or Later

Sooner or Later the world wage scale is going to equalize.

[Bluebear]

21. Cool, well I am glad you see the bright spot.

For me, I see trouble ahead.

[jpgray]

22. Where's the evidence for that argument?

On the contrary, it is in the interest of large corporations to keep manufacturing costs as cheap as possible while selling to a consumer base as wealthy as possible. You don't do that by equalizing wages--you do that by maintaining a broad gap between countries both in wages and in environmental/labor standards for manufacturing.

[One_Life_To_Give]

24. Maintaining a Low Wage work force

Requires a corrupt government to prevent wage inflation in competition for workers. And then it only works to the limit in which the citizens will tolerate without revolt.

Money has to flow in a loop. Whatever amount the wealthy spend in foreign products has to be returned to the wealthy. Otherwise the wealthy will not be wealthy for long.

There are fewer jobs/services for which a specific physical location is required. Hence all people around the globe can bid equally on the work to be done. Making it impossible for one to charge more than the other.

[Wiley50]

65. Peak Oil is what you are not considering

You're thinking globally but, global economies require transportation.
90% of transportation depends on oil (and that's counting bicycles and water buffaloes. There are'nt too many nuclear subs around)

[robertpaulsen]

100. Speaking of Peak Oil where China's lack of faith in $ is concerned...

Check this out:

China, Canada Agree on Oil,
Uranium Development

Rob Delaney in Beijing and Ian McKinnon in Calgary

Jan. 20 (Bloomberg) -- China and Canada signed agreements in Beijing today to help develop uranium mines and oil reserves, including Canada's oil sand deposits in Alberta, to expand trade between the two countries.

The agreements followed meetings between Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Canada's Prime Minister Paul Martin. Canada's Martin and Trade Minister James Peterson are on a six-day visit to China with representatives of 250 Canadian companies to boost commercial ties with its second-largest trading partner.

"Canada and China have decided to work together to promote cooperation in the oil and gas sector, including Canada's oil sands, as well as in the uranium resources field," the two governments said in a statement. No specifics were given on companies that may be involved, and details of the agreement weren't available on a Web site for Canada's prime minister.

Companies including Exxon Mobil Corp., Royal Dutch/Shell Group and Canadian Natural Resources Ltd. plan to spend billions during the next decade to develop Alberta's unconventional oil deposits as demand for crude rises and output from existing fields decline. Oil-sands output in Alberta may double to 2 million barrels a day by 2013, according to a presentation last week by Enbridge Inc.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012705_china_canada.shtml

[txaslftist]

95. Who says the consumer base has to be in the U.S?

The EU and a growing Chinese Middle Class make pretty good consumers, too. For globalists, the incentive to keep Americans employed and earning money to consume is actually not as strong as it once was.

Welcome to Charles Dickens' world.

[htuttle]

14. This 'US Manufacturing' would be....what, exactly?

And won't we have to depress wages down to Chinese levels to start seeing factories move back to the US?

And that manufacturing that still exists here -- aren't most of the components made overseas? So those components will become more expensive in US dollars, requiring them to move the factory overseas to make it up on labor costs.

Not seeing the bright spot yet. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough...

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. Inflation

A sinking US currency will look like inflation. roducts becoming more expensive to buy. Foreign labor becoming more expensive as well. But mostly it makes it cheaper for foreigners to purchase our exports.


Many of the factories that remain in the US have factors which make it unproductive to relocate them elsewhere.

[xpat]

27. What US manufacturing?

It's gone. There ain't no more.

[Bluebear]

29. Good point

Plenty of burger jobs until they can figure out how to outsource them.

[Skidmore]

79. I'm feeling goofy and a little sleep deprived but this gave me a

chuckle. I can really picture them trying to create a market for the UPS next day burger delivery. Wanna take bets on which contractor gets the $s for developing the superspeed international burger delivery plane?

[lectrobyte]

94. Well, actually they can outsource part of the process...

Pull off U.S. Interstate Highway 55 near Cape Girardeau, Missouri, and into the drive-through lane of a McDonald's next to the highway and you'll get fast, friendly service, even though the person taking your order is not in the restaurant - or even in Missouri.

http://www.iht.com/articles/529970.html

[The Political Amazon]

40. Positive for American manufacturers?

I cannot work out a positive for American manufacturing.

The economy works by supply and demand. If there is no demand (like if our economy tanks and we, the masses--who drive the economy--cannot buy, then the suppliers will not produce.

If you are thinking that this means that the Chinese will be buying our goods--that isn't a good thing because for them to buy our goods, that means we would have to be producing them at a cost less than they can produce them.

None of us--NONE--could survive on what the Chinese get paid. In fact, it would be worse for us, because in many ways the Chinese have more in the way of government-funded social programs to help the poorest workers.

We don't even have that anymore, thanks to Bush, the GOP, and the Democratic Party politicians who helped them create this economic disaster.

What this will do is nearly obliterate the middle-class and upper-to-middle-lower-class in America. There will be the Elites (like our politicians in Washington, and corporate powers like Halliburton) and homeless, and not much in between.

What it will mean is that people like us will not be able to pay our house payments, but foreigners will--and that's just one scenario.

[Up2Late]

53. Isn't that the * mantra? Has he ever said anything that was right?

The dollar has alrady lost over 65% of it's value since Bush stole the 2000 election, how much weaker do you want it to get?:shrug:

(Oct.26, 2000 was the bottom for the Euro)
Thursday, 26 October, 2000, 16:02 GMT 17:02 UK
Euro plunges yet again
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/991738.stm>

Thursday, 30 December, 2004, 23:43 GMT
Dollar slides ahead of New Year
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4135609.stm>

Thursday, 21 December, 2000, 14:05 GMT
US economy slows sharply
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1081610.stm>

[One_Life_To_Give]

78. Dollar to Yuan is const. over that period

The Dollar has been about 8.27 Yuan since 2000. Although the dollar lost almost half it's value to the Yuan in the 90's.

This also means Chinese goods sold in Europe have become cheaper there as well. Which is what we are seeing. The movement of manufacturing jobs from Europe to China.

[Up2Late]

83. Yes, But what's your point?

As you point out, "...This also means Chinese goods sold in Europe have become cheaper there as well..."

This it probably THEE pressure that is TRULY to blame, for the Chinese wanting to "un-peg" the Yuan from the U.S. Dollar, not * pressure and rhetoric.

Because "Chinese goods sold in Europe have become cheaper," that also means that the Chinese are making less and less money on what they sell in Europe, while at the same time, their raw materials and Fuel (Oil, Gas, and Natural Gas) keep rising (because they are priced and traded in U.S. Dollars.) which equals --- Lower Profits. Something even * could understand.:smoke:

[One_Life_To_Give]

86. Increases Chinese volume

The volume of Chinese products being sold in Europe has been increasing. All this dcapital flowing into China is feeding a boom in their economy. And feeding a growing consumerism among the Chinese people. That puts upward (inflationary) pressure on wages in China.

[Up2Late]

92. I agree, but...

what conclusion are you making?

What point are you tiring to show?

I don't disagree, I'm just a bit confused. :shrug:

Speak, SPEEEEAAAK!:silly:

[One_Life_To_Give]

102. Bad news is not all bad all the time

Was just trying to point out that there could be some positive aspects to a decline in the value of the Dollar vs Yuan.

[proudbluestater]

73. Could be good for manufacturing, except we don't make anything

in the US anymore. Part of the problem with the trade deficit. We don't make/ship enough to other countries to overcome the trade deficit. On the other hand, what China ships to us could easily be sold in its own country.

We are screwed. Thanks, Bush, rot in hell.

[SoCalDem]

113. re: "We don't make anything anymore"

Not only did we "close" factories, we DISMANTLED them and sent the parts & pieces overseas...or we just razed the empty buildings and paved the space for "mall parking"..

All we need to do is to look back, to see where we went wrong.

The major industries of America were built with cheap imported labor (German, Irish, Chinese, Italian,etc). The plants/factories were "top of the line" cutting edge WHEN THEY WERE BUILT...but after WWII we switched tracks. We did not want "foreigners" coming in anymore./ Our businessmen decided that upgrading and modernizing would take a back seat to PROFIT-making.

Add to that, the fact that we rebuilt Europe and Japan with truly modern facilities that were 50 years newer than our own. We encouraged "labor-saving" here at home, and opened the floodgates to the cheaper goods from our former enemies. turned trading partners.

Once that happened, we were destined to never again be self-sufficient,Job providers.

Look at the rhetoric from that era.. It was all about "saving time", saving steps", "working smarter,easier".. The "lucky ones" (the older factory workers of that era) at least had retirement plans and pensions, so that when their industries phased out, they could still live decently.

That is no longer the way things are. People bounce from job to job, not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to. When people cannot afford to buy more than plastic Walmart junk, they are not even really consumers anymore. They are just subsistence customers, spending all their available income to "just get by". There is no future for this kind of economy..

[Massacure]

25. TIMBER!!!

[Gothmog]

26. This could be horrible news for the economy

If china dumps its dollars, we are in big trouble.

[Bluebear]

28. You got that right!

But let's all watch the new Trista Bachelorette. After all, Dems are just "sore loosers" to be talking like this.

[Up2Late]

54. Two words-- "You Rock"

:yourock:

[The Political Amazon]

30. Bush's Latest Serving of Depression Pie May Put the IWF in our Future

Finally, we have the latest piece of the Bush Depression Pie he is just about ready to serve to Americans:

the tanking of the U.S. dollar against other countries' currencies (especially the Euro dollar) is a very, very, VERY bad thing. And the fact that the Chinese have announced it to the world is such an alarming occurrence that I would be very surprised if it didn't lead to other countries following China's lead.

But the worst fallout that may very well occur is being kept from the American people, although economists all realize it as a very strong possibility of occurring: if we default on our loans (right now we are largely paying interest only) then the IWF steps in. And that is NOT a good thing (more about that later).

Our loan debt is foolishly, irresponsibly, and horrifically high, which was already causing concerns that the countries keeping us afloat--like China--would be forced to cut off our ability to get loans from them.

This is very bad for us AND the Chinese because right now we have a large trade deficit (we are buying more stuff from other countrires than we are exporting to other countries), which means that China's economy is benefitting from Americans' consumption of their products.

But no country can continue to loan money to a country in as bad of economic straits as the U.S. because it can destabilize their own economy, and leave them vulnerable to a crash and dression.

If countries like China look at our expanding amount of debt and decide not to loan anymore money, we are truly screwed. And they are, too, because if we can't buy their goods then their goods will stockpile in warehouses, and they will be facing their own threats of an impending depression.

We are using some of the money we are borrowing hand-over-fist to pay off the interest on earlier loans. If we don't pay off the interest--which is a condition of the loan--as we guaranteed we would do, then it will send the loan into default.

That will bring in the international financial institutions which were formed to stave off another Great Depression: The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

But this is NOT a good thing because these loans made to countries to keep them solvent come with great big strings attached called "structural adjustment policies"--financial policies the countries who are getting the loans will be forced to implement.

Guess what one of the SAPs is--across-the-board PRIVATIZATION OF PUBLICLY OWNED COMPANIES, such as publicly owned utilities and publicly owned companies.

They also include forcing the country to allow entry from foreign companies, who will then have wide-open access to our natural resources and our workers.

The SAPs include deep, deep cuts in government budgets, which even in the best of countries leads to draconian cuts in public health-care and education programs.

They force the country to abandon its efforts in supporting local farms and growing food for local communities, and instead to focus its resources on producing exports for industrialized nations.

The SAPs usually result in the countries in Asia, Latin America and Africa have been widespread destruction of their environment and an even WORSE economic condition of the country being "helped" by the IWF to meet its loan debt demands.

Economists and analyists have been largely silent about the huge threat to our nation--CREATED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION--probably for 2 reasons: 1) because, metaphoriclaly speaking, they bend and spread 'em whenever Bush snaps his finger, having completely lost any will to operate with any kind of journalistic ethics, shielding Bush from the terrible impact of his failed policies; 2) because they are scared that if they say one word about it, AMericans will panic and a run on the stock market will occur, and the Great Depression will be at our doorstep.

Willy Nelson said something a few months ago in a Majority Report interview. He said that the face of rural farming America is changing. There are fewer and fewer small farms, and huge corporate farms instead. In towns where huge corporate farming wouldn't be profitable, sometimes the family-run farms (which employ much of the local population) simply go under from the competition with corporate farming interests. And then there are basically ghost towns where thriving, family-run farming communities used to be.

Willy Nelson also said that a trend is developing: American farming corporations are being bought out by foreign interests.

If Bush's failed economic policies end up in the IMF having to step in, the remaining American farming corporations will be ripe and easy pickins for wealthy international corporations.

The way the distribution of food, on an international and political basis, works is this: the humans who consume the most get the best and most food from the world's agricultural areas.

So how its always worked before is that, even if there is a decrease in production in the U.S. and widespread world crop failures, Americans experience ZERO decrease in the amount of food we are able to buy at the usual reasonable prices.

Why? Because the world's economy depends on human consumption, so it makes more sense from an economic point of view to feed the Americans--because they are such grossly piggish consumers--than to feed starving Biafrans who can't buy much at Wal-Mart already, so are contributing nothing to the world's economy.

How do you think Americans would do, from a food-available point of view, if our country went into another Great Depression, when WE are the ones who are no longer the largest consumers?

Americans would become "Biafranized," and our economic worth to the world would be greatly decreased (and our economic worth goes hand in hand with the amount of power we exert over the rest of the world). Without Americans being able to prop up the world's economy by our consumption of the world's produced goods, the world economic powers would gain nothing from continuing to feed us, certainly as we are now being fed.

But there's another reason that Americans would become the Biafra of the world: if a foreign interest buys up our farm-production resources (perhaps the Saudi royal family or the bin Laden family), they may very well decide that the way to destroy America the fastest and easiest is to starve them out.

Without pesky American humans and government to worry about, these foreign interests could rape our natural resources, loot our museums, raid our treasury...

...why, just like Bush has done to Iraq!

So be sure to thank those Democratic Politicians, like the ones in the Senate, who, in voting for Rice's confirmation, put their own selfish priorities ahead of what is the best for America and its citizens, because they have aided Bush in the destruction of our country at every freaking turn over the last 6 years, and our crippling national debt has been amassed largely with their help. And also be sure to give your Republican friends who voted for Bush your thanks for giving Bush another 4 years to try to destroy America. The way it looks now, he'll have it done long before his term runs out.

[biglake]

117. Amazing...is this a Bush Adm./China mutual plan?

Your assessments are amazing. I guess I as a lay person don't understand the economic whys.
Here are the players but I don't understand the what and why? I believe that the US is as you say being taken apart. Going down as in the Great Depression.

How did the Bushes and their counterparts benefit from that early Depression? Or will they in the fall of our Treasury, our economy? How will China benefit?

Are they in a conspiracy to accomplish this?

Then...what do we do? Stop paying taxes? Seriously. What have you determined?

[Mountainman]

32. I think we in CA should mint our own currency. Aren't we still the 5th

largest economy?

Why can't we be like China and stop propping up this right wing government?

[Up2Late]

47. Better start buying those "Liberty Dollars"

<>
<http://www.libertydollar.org/>
I don't know if what they say at this web site is all true, but it sure feels good to have a "Real" hunk of Silver or Gold in your hand, and it's fun to say "I'm dumping my U.S. Dollars.":think:

[LiberalPersona]

36. But, but

Bush supporter: "It's the republicans who are fiscally responsible. They can't have caused this. It's Clinton's fault. Everything is!!!"

[txaslftist]

96. If we just cut taxes some more, the money will trickle down...

we'll all be OK.

Be an optimist!

[proud patriot]

42. Oh Fuck !

I really hate that bush put Americans in such
a finacially vunerable postition to China ...

FUCK ! :grr:

[McCamy Taylor]

44. Its true.Wait till World Bank bails us out tells us how to run our country

[K-W]

48. The world bank and what army?

The US has massive influence in the worldbank anyway.

[xpat]

81. Don't kid yourself

It's US capitalists, not Americans who have all that influence in the World Bank. They will use _our_ army. It is always local force that enforces WB/IMF policy.

[K-W]

105. Right, but US capitalists will use the US army to keep anyone else

from coming in and doing anything.

If the world bank tells us to do something we would laugh in thier faces. The US has ALWAYS made it clear that the law only applies to it when it wants it to.

The rest of the world would have to challenge us militarily to be able to call any shots in the US.

[xpat]

108. Let me repeat this slowly

The World Bank is US capitalists. If they decide to loot the US the way they have traditionally looted 3rd world countries, they'll do it, and they will use American military and police to enforce it.

[Up2Late]

46. WOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!

:bounce: Let the economic collapse begin!

I've been predicting this for more than a month, but did any Bushie or Freeper listen? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Remember everyone, Wal~Mart sells BIG Guns! Just a hint folks, not a suggestion.:bounce:

Any word from Japan?:shrug:

[Bluebear]

49. USA! USA! I'm so proud!

[Wiley50]

70. Sort of a perverse pleasure, Huh?

I know, we've had NO pleasure foe awhile.
I guess it's comforting to know for sure that they were wrong about what we've been saying.
But it's gonna hurt us too.
Perverse pleasure is a fleeting pleasure

[Up2Late]

122. I sucks BIG TIME

But it's going to hurt "them," a lot more than it will hurt me.

I have VERY little money, plus, I'm a Buddhist, and we are taught that everything is temporary, and not to become too attached to anything, including money and property.:smoke:

[Up2Late]

50. You think "they" are doing this on purpose?

To teach * and Co. a lesson?:evilgrin:

[Bluebear]

52. No, Bush and * are gonna be fine

One of the boys is on the board of some Chinese microcip firm, Poppy has long ties with the Chinese business sector. They could care less, they'll be fine.

I think China is ready to cash in their chips and beat us at the money game.

[Up2Late]

56. But I mean the OTHER "they," you know...

All the OTHER mega rich people (and countries) in the world?:evilgrin:

[RPM]

55. and so it begins...

the USA - it was great while it lasted...

[mockingbich]

57. When 900 million rural peasants flood into the cities...

China won't be a very stable investment either.

BTW - Shrub sure looks stupid in those blue pajamas

[RPM]

61. agreed...

that's when they call their debts against american agriculture, and we starve here...

[Kazak]

58. Thanks optical scan tabulators!

Repeat after me: PAPER BALLOTS!!!

[clem_c_rock]

120. Exactly - Let's repeat that again

[Geek_Girl]

60. Does anyone know how this will affect other countries

Like Europe and Canada?

[K-W]

64. Its impossible to know.

The US's role in the global economy is unique, so there is very little precedent.

[Spazito]

90. Canada just signed a raft of new trade agreements with...

China and China has now put Canada on their list of preferred vacation countries. Canada has been working on trade agreements in Asia and Europe to reduce the effects of the falling US dollar, the coming effects of the blossoming US debt and the continuation of the US attempts to block Canadian imports by raising tariffs against the rules of NAFTA.

When China, and it is WHEN not if, does peg their currency to a basket of currencies including the euro and stops pegging their currency to the US greenback, it will effect other countries' economies but most have already begun to put into place policies and agreements that will mitigate those effects.

[txaslftist]

97. I'm thinking Canada won't be so sympathetic to refugees ...

...fleeing a corrupted/disrupted economy as they are to political refugees.

If you've got a ticket, use it soon.

[Geek_Girl]

104. Thats good I put my 401K into European Funds

I can't leave my mother or grandmother since I'm all they have here but one day I hope to be able to move to Canada.

[KissMeKate]

62. we are fucked.

unrestricted free trade plus indebtedness to our bankers is killing our manufacturing base, and hurting our country.

[ultraist]

66. Political Amazon: What's up with the five anti-Democrat statements?

I found your posts interesting, particularly these five comments in five of the twelve posts you've made here:

Political Amazon wrote in five different posts:
"Again, BE SURE to thank the Democratic politicians..."

"This should be a very good Object Lesson to the Democratic Party voters who have continued to vote for these Democratic Party politicians whose top priority was serving Bush and other Elites, and completely ignoring the impact on how We, the People, will suffer."

"...not the politicians in Washington who have created (and this includes the Bush-serving Democratic politicians

"We don't even have that anymore, thanks to Bush, the GOP, and the Democratic Party politicians who helped them create this economic disaster"

"So be sure to thank those Democratic Politicians, like the ones in the Senate, who, in voting for Rice's confirmation, put their own selfish priorities ahead of what is the best for America and its citizens..."

So you saw the "Michael Moore movie" and read a Wille Nelson statement, eh? I see.

[grasswire]

69. don't be dissing PA

There isn't a netizen that has earned stripes more thoroughly than PoliticalAmazon.

Keep in mind that some people criticize Democrats because they want them to ACT LIKE DEMOCRATS should.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grasswire]

75. no problem....

....now you know, and that's why I chimed in. I've known PA on the Internet for almost ten years. She's fearless, smart, and a helluva researcher.

[KissMeKate]

111. dissent is not anti democrat.

should we all be yes men?

[winston61]

80. there is a rat here

China will continue to keep it's currency devalued and will keep it linked to the dollar. Pegging the currency to the Euro will cost money. But Chinese currency speculators just like American speculators are shunning the dollar for the euro. Say one thing in public and then place your bets just the opposite. This is china's way of keeping the US from moaning about devalued Chinese currency. But with the sinking dollar and the trade deficit they (and everyone else who loans us money) has got us by the balls and won't hesitate to dangle the euro in front of use and threaten to say goodbye. If you listen to financial programs on CNN and FOCKS News, you notice they never talked about currency markets. I heard Ben Stein admit that FOCKS producers tells the talking heads not to talk about currency markets. So here's a good dose of American corporate patriotism, screw the dollar, but don't talk about it.

[Up2Late]

89. I think you're kidding yourself

You say the problem is "...Say one thing in public and then place your bets just the opposite..." I don't think so.

The problem is they "...Say one thing in public...", But then the U.S. MSM doesn't report it to the rest of us. :think:

You've probably seen this: :boring:

Central banks shift reserves away from US

By Chris Giles
Financial Times
January 24 2005
<http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/012405_central_bank.shtml>

Central banks are shifting reserves away from the US and towards the eurozone in a move that looks set to deepen the Bush administration's difficulties in financing its ballooning current account deficit.

In actions likely to undermine the dollar's value on currency markets, 70 per cent of central bank reserve managers said they had increased their exposure to the euro over the past two years. The majority thought eurozone money and debt markets were as attractive a destination for investment as the US.
(more at link above)

But have you seen these stories:
:think:<http://www.forbes.com/window/free_forbes/2005/0110/036.html>
A Word From A Dollar Bear
Robert Lenzner Daniel Kruger , 01.10.05

Warren Buffett's vote of no confidence in U.S. fiscal policies is up to $20 billion.
The dollar has fallen savagely against the euro for the past three years, and the trade deficit is running $55 billion a month. Is the currency rout over? Can the trade deficit be fixed with a rise in interest rates or an upward revaluation of the Chinese currency? Warren Buffett, the world's most visible dollar bear, says the answer to both these questions is no. His bet against the dollar, reported at $12 billion in his last annual report (for Dec. 31, 2003), has gotten all the bigger. Now his Berkshire Hathaway has a $20 billion bet in favor of the euro, the pound and six other foreign currencies.
(more at link above)

Note: AFP is the French Newswire service
Central Banks Count the Cost of Weak Dollar

By Agence France-Presse
Monday, January 10, 2005

FRANKFURT (AFP) - The weak dollar appears to be tearing holes in the annual accounts of central banks both in Europe and elsewhere around the world, with many banks considering reducing their official holdings in the US greenback.

The German business daily Handelsblatt reported that the European Central Bank, which booked a 2003 loss of 477 million euros (625 million dollars), saw its net loss widen to at least one billion euros last year as a result of the weak dollar.
more at link <http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011105_weak_dollar.shtml>

These stories are becoming common, dozens of others

[winston61]

103. you are correct

And the problem is far worse than I thought. But is there really anything that any administration can do to a sinking currency? Is there anything to do about trade deficit? I'm certain that the Bush admin. wants to bankrupt the Fed, but can they do that without causing nationwide collapse? Am I right to think that with the dollar sinking, that private American capital is flowing out of the country to the Euro? It seems we are in Iraq in a desperate attempt to control regional politics as well as keeping oil pegged to the dollar. What are the consequences oil being valued in Euros instead of greenbacks? Many questions, any answers?

[Up2Late]

121. He can start by ending the lies of "We support a Strong Dollar"

The rest of the world is not that stupid, and they are NOT buying it anymore :eyes:(no pun intended).

He can stop lying to his supporters in this country, telling them that things would be great, if we made the "Tax Cuts" permanent.:crazy:

He could admit to All Americans that the "Tax Cuts" we not Tax Cuts, but "Temporary Economic Stimulus", that now has to be repealed, before the debt and current deficit does permanent damage to the U.S. and World Economy:grr:.

That would be a good start, and would probably stabilize the currency. Then he could start figuring out sly ways to Tax :hurts: the rich and multi-Billion dollar Corporations again.

"...What are the consequences oil being valued in Euros instead of greenbacks...?" Oil is the main reason we can have a 7.6 Trillion :wow:Dollar Debt. <http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html> That would be disastrous for the U.S. Economy, some people call the U.S. Dollars "Petrol Dollars," Our control of most of the worlds Oil (think, American Oil Companies, 12 Aircraft Carrier Battle groups, and Army and Air Force bases all over the World)

Our current venture into the Iraq, and Afghanistan are about 90% motivated by Oil. Afghanistan for the Pipeline routes, Iraq because it's sitting on the last Major source of "Cheap" (to produce and refine) Oil. Afghanistan also gave us a "good" reason to build Air Force bases in the Caspian Region, another under utilized Oil Zone.

Ever wonder why Chechnya and Former Soviet Georgia have become an issue? Oil Pipelines. :think:

[WMliberal]

85. riiiiiiiiight, so that's why they're still pegging to it.

It's just a coincidence that it makes their cheap goods, already artificially cheap through sweapshop labor, even cheaper and improves their export-import ratio. :eyes:

[txaslftist]

98. No...that's why they just announced they'll stop pegging to it.

[WMliberal]

99. I'll believe it when they do it.

This is just a scare tactic. They're getting to rich on pegging to the dollar.

If they do peg to something else, they'll do it at an undervalued rate. They can't afford to have the yuan become expensive to the U.S.

[mattclearing]

87. Next Chinese Newsflash: Soviet Union No Longer Soviet Union.

:eyes:

[TWiley]

88. Hungry and Angry Americans create Angry Gods and Religions.

I have long felt that this could be the chimps strategy. No jobs, more join the military. More angry americans, more angry religious folk using Gawd to justify more military adventurism.

[txaslftist]

91. About time they caught on...

I've been watching (and wincing) while the dollar plummets against every other major currency for about a year and a half.

Shrub and the Repubs are the only people left with confidence in our 'great economy'.

But hey, "Freedom's on the March!"

[Geek_Girl]

106. I can't help but think this is all be design

:tinfoilhat:
Maybe to cut out all social programs including public education and diverting all tax dollars to the military industrial complex.

[txaslftist]

115. I don't think conspiracy...

I think incompetence.

[Zech Marquis]

109. note to my gf tonight

"aby I hope you're investing in Euros" :scared:

[SoCalDem]

112. How cheeky of them to point it out..

Seeing as how a lot if it is THEIR fault. China trade is a bug part of what's wrong with our economy..That and the US's insatiable hunger for plastic junk and $4 jeans:(

[against all enemies]

118. China should just keep sucking our limp dollar and be happy.

We're the United States of America and we can do anything we want to the world economy. Bend over and Take it.

The above message has been brought to you by George W Bush Economics, John Snow, Treasurer.