Are women not really people but only walking wombs?

[efhmc]

Unless we neuter ourselves and render our minds and bodies to our male masters(condi and *bush, etc), we are looked upon as reproductive wards of the state and religion. "VATICAN CITY - The Vatican on Tuesday praised an Italian woman who died after refusing cancer treatment that would have required her to have an abortion. Rita Fedrizzi died this week, three months after giving birth to a baby boy."

[BayCityProgressive]

1. nope

women ar ejust walking fetus carriers apparently. NO SURRENDER ON ABORTION RIGHTS.....EVER!

[efhmc]

3. The Handmaiden's Tale comes closer and closer every day.

I absolutely respect any decision any woman makes about her own body but this decision was made under moral and spiritual duress. What an evil thing this is. I really, really hate what so much of organized religion does to women.

[Djinn]

14. the woman was entitles

to make that decision - there's no way we can say she was under "duress" without supopsing that ALL Catholic women are unable to make up their own minds about this.

She was a moron who thought God wanted her to die to save the life of a fetus, one less idiot in the world

[efhmc]

24. Yes, she was under duress, since she was programmed from an early

age to understand her place in a society that values reproduction far above the female as human. In that society, one gains acceptance and "goodness' by following the male's dominance and guidance in all things, especially spiritual. That is not only duress, it is brain washing and so opposed to the teaching and love of Christ for all humans that it is a blasphemous thing.

[Djinn]

25. how do you know?

maybe she only became Catholic as an adult? either way I know women who gerw up Catholic who had abortions, including one who still views herself as a good and practising Catholic.

Unless you're going to support the theory that EVERY Catholic woman is unable to make an informed decision then I don't think we can say THIS woman was coerced.

Maybe she honestly beleived that a fetus was a human being and that abortion was murder - plenty of non catolics and even atheists beleive that - I vehemently diagree with her but I wouldn't want her saying that's because I've been brainwashed by liberal parents and feminist friends.

[efhmc]

27. Interesting, her own life was not murder (because she was the vessel

or womb) but that of the unborn person is. It was self murder and we all know that and to think otherwise means that you have been well programmed to believe what you have been taught by another entity run by and for the preservation of MEN. Those who cannot reproduce themselves cannot stand the idea that they do not have complete control over all aspects of life, especially those that are in the hands of women, the ones who take the risk and do the work.

[Djinn]

34. refusing treatment isn't self murder

and if it was she had every right to do it, but thank you for deciding that if I don't agree with you it's because I've been brainwashed by the patriarchy.

It's about CHOICE - women should be free to decide NOT to abort as well - if you beleive it's murder (which again I don't - I beleive not only in abortion but I put NO cut-off point on it and think it should be 100 taxpayer funded) then you wouldn't do it.

Would YOU kill someone to save your life, probably not, and this woman for whatever reason beleived that. HER CHOICE.

I don't want the Pope making my decisions but likewise I don't want your feminist orthodoxy telling me how to think either

[efhmc]

44. Ever single thing you write affirms to me what you have been taught to

think within the context of your place in society and your culture and your religion.

[Djinn]

54. don't have a religion

and how is saying I beleive in choice (and would personally have run to the abortion clinic if this was me) prove that I'm a timid little poppet cowed by the patriarchy??

[Cheswick2.0]

97. funny....... I know a lot of feminists/liberals

I have never known one who tried to convince anyone that abortion was the moral choice. They might argue that abortion might be the moral choice and that some woman may make the choice to abort based on their morals.
However Anti-choice never say that abortion is anything but immoral.
Your argument falls apart when faced with reality.

[Dorian Gray]

110. Sorry...

You lost me. What if she felt that she loved her child and wanted her child to have the chance to live?

I know of other women, not even Christian, let alone Catholic, who made the same decision.

[Cheswick2.0]

94. wrong

People can suppose anything they suppose based on life experience. I can suppose the woman was brain washed because know so many women who are.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. I don't like doctrinal debates

but according Maimonides - the duty to save the mother's life supersedes the duty to give birth - and abortion would be encouraged in this case.

[efhmc]

40. Maimonides?

[Coastie for Truth]

98. Maimonides

Moses Maimonides was a "Renaissance Man" from the era described in Maria Menocal's "The Ornament of the World". He was born in Muslim Spain in 1135 and lived in Egypt. In Egypt he was court physician, and at the same time, head of the Jewish communities in Egypt. His writings range far and wide -- medicine, philosophy, theology. He died at Cairo in 1204.

Philosophically, Maimonides was a religious rationalist. His damning attacks on people who held ideas he regarded as primitive — those, for example, who understood literally such biblical expressions as "the finger of God" so infuriated his opponents that they proscribed parts of his code and all of The Guide to the Perplexed. Other, more liberal, spirits forbade study of the Guide to anyone not of mature years. An old joke has it that these rabbis feared that a Jew would start reading a section in the Guide in which Maimonides summarizes a rationalist attack on religion, and fall asleep before reading Maimonides's counterattack-thereby spending the night as a heretic.

Maimonides was one of the few Jewish thinkers whose teachings also influenced the non­Jewish world; much of his philosophical writings in the Guide were about God and other theological issues of general, not exclusively Jewish, interest. Thomas Aquinas refers in his writings to “Rabbi Moses,” and shows considerable familiarity with the Guide. In 1985, on the 850th anniversary of Maimonides's birth, Pakistan and Cuba — which do not recognize Israel — were among the co­sponsors of a UNESCO conference in Paris on Maimonides. Vitali Naumkin, a Soviet scholar, observed on this occasion: "Maimonides is perhaps the only philosopher in the Middle Ages, perhaps even now, who symbolizes a confluence of four cultures: Greco­Roman, Arab, Jewish, and Western.” More remarkably, Abderrahmane Badawi, a Muslim professor from Kuwait University, declared: "I regard him first and foremost as an Arab thinker.” This sentiment was echoed by Saudi Arabian professor Huseyin Atay, who claimed that “if you didn't know he was Jewish, you might easily make the mistake of saying that a Muslim was writing." That is, if you didn't read any of his Jewish writings. Maimonides scholar Shlomo Pines delivered perhaps the most accurate assessment at the conference: "Maimonides is the most influential Jewish thinker of the Middle Ages, and quite possibly of all time" (Time magazine, December 23, 1985). As a popular Jewish expression of the Middle Ages declares: "From Moses to Moses there was none like Moses.

Maimonides' writing are cited to show that Scrupture permits abortions - at least to save the life of the mother and encourages stem cell research to alleviate suffering.

Israeli medical school graduates and Yeshiva Univ Med School graduates do not take the Hippocratic oath - they take the Oath of Maimonides.

[efhmc]

111. Well, now I feel much better educated. Thanks for the info and the

rational for comparing his teaching to present day issues.

[zann725]

53. Oooo, I loved that book! It was so frightening to read as a Woman...

and THAT was 20 years ago...before it got as truly frightening in the World as it is today. That book is SOOO prophetic!

[efhmc]

79. Wonder why women are still not seen as people with other functions than

reproducing or assisting males. What was interesting in the book was how women were made to turn on one another to help keep the others in order. That is the way all suject societies work.

[infusionman]

2. It just doesn't make sense.

That boy is going to have a guilt trip for the rest of his life.

[sweetheart]

21. maybe he'll revere the gift his mother gave him

How can you know. A woman should have an absolute right to choice
over her body, period, no matter what day of the year it is. The need
to legislate against woman killing their babies is absurd. There is
a genetic and hormonal thing that more often than not has women producing
those babies, as our massively overpoulated world can attest... geesh
with 6 billions and climbing, you'd think they'd be more concerned
about something else than increasing the birth rate.

That mother clearly loved her child, enough to die for him, and even
'i' can feel that. Surely he feels his mother deeply, and is blessed
by her saintly act.

Like flordiapat says, don't get me started on the vatican... grrrrr...
nutjob whacko patriarchal wastoids who spread AIDS, destroy feminism
all for some petty ideology... grrrrr..

[China_cat]

59. He'll be reminded every day

by the rest of his family that because of him his mother died. Some won't do it intentionally but you can bet his siblings will, at some point in their lives, say "if it weren't for you we'd still have a mother".

[AliciaKeyedUp]

62. Bull crap

A mother's love gave him life. That is the ultimate gift. If you are really pro-Choice, you have to support her decision.

[China_cat]

73. I do support her decision.

It was made by her for her reasons. It is the truest meaning of choice.

That doesn't change the fact that the child she died to give birth to will carry the blame for her death. Or that at some point his siblings will be vocal about it. If he's really fortunate, he won't get it from his father, but I wouldn't count that out either.

[RobertSeattle]

4. Why else would they be caled womben?

:evilgrin:

[bemildred]

5. We are all property of the state.

It sounds like you need te be re-educated.

[efhmc]

10. Too late, too old and past child bearing age so I have nothing to lose.

It is the next generation that is at risk (not my 2 daughters. They know who and where to fight.)

[KissMeKate]

6. this scenario is rare

but it seems alot of antiabortion people still oppose abortion when it risks the mothers life to continue the pregnancy.

that is unconscionable.

[efhmc]

12. Again what it means to me is that women are here to reproduce at all

costs. We are reproductive organs, not people.

[Coastie for Truth]

31. Don't fool yourself

this is "the policy" at some "faith based" hospitals. Happened to two women I knew--- after Roe v. Wade

[KissMeKate]

39. I believe it.

eom

[efhmc]

41. Are you saying that they were allowed to die to save the baby?

[Coastie for Truth]

75. Yes

And the family (baby in question plus older sibs) became dysfunctional - father was a "dry drunk" resumed drinking, married "to have a mother for the kids" career went to hell.

[efhmc]

78. What a sad, sad story. The church and the government need to

let people make their own choices without guilt or coercion. But those choices get whittled away more every day.

[Kathryn7]

95. No. The Church has always said the life of the mother comes first.

Abortion has always been allowed for tubal pregnancies etc. Any time the mother's life is in danger.

[efhmc]

101. I know for a fact that that is not right. A friend was having problems

with a delivery (the child is now 5). The Dr. knew the husband was catholic and he made a point of telling the father that the woman was the patient and that if there was a choice to be made that the mother would be saved. Thank God that decision did not have to be made. So I'm pretty sure you are wrong. A tubal pregnancy is a LONG way from a full term baby.

[Kathryn7]

108. Whether it is a tubal pregnacy or a near full term baby, the mother

can be saved by an abortion according to the Catholic Church. The life of the mother comes first. This has always been taught and has never changed.

[efhmc]

112. That is just not true. It may be the doctrine now but has certainly not

always been the case. I do not want to be continuous but I would like to see a written reference on this. Thanks.

[Kathryn7]

113. Catholic Encyclopedia

"However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. "

[HockeyMom]

116. No

They didn't want to do that for me when I had my ectopic in a Catholic Hospital. They had to make sure my tube burst (and put MY LIFE in danger) so they wouldn't kill that 5 week old embyro.

[Kathryn7]

119. Sue the hospital. That isn't the teaching of the church.

The tube could have been removed before it burst.

[Lisabtrucking]

7. If the republicans had their way they would have women bare foot

and pregnant.

[FloridaPat]

8. This lady gave her life so her child could be born. This is a thing about

choice and she made hers. She is what I am call one of the Unknown Heros in this world. They make unselfish acts which is really rare now-a-days. As for the Vatican, don't get me started.

[efhmc]

15. CRAP! If I really thought she had made this choice without being

programed to think that her worth in life was as a reproductive entity and not as a whole person, I might agree, but since I think she was a product of a religious culture that pegged her as unworthy unless she submited and was a good madonna/mommie, I am screaming no empathically. (Just had to go back and change all the present tense verbs for her to past tense, bummer)

[Djinn]

can you not see how patronising you're being

she's Catholic so she's a brainless moron incapable of making a rational decision. Anti-choicers say a similar thing, you know that a woman gets an abortion because she's been brainwashed by a permissive society (it's a fair bit easier to access in my part of the world) to beleive it's OK to kill babies. That they're brainwashed to beleive motherhood is bad and that careers are better.

Why is SHE brainwashed but not you.

[efhmc]

45. No one ever told, taught, preached or discussed with me what choices

I had the right to make about my own body, including reproductive organs, feet, hands, breasts, brain, anything. I was brought up in the church and no one ever, ever, ever mentioned, suggested, or referred to control over anything but my soul, the essence of my being. My reproductive organs were never brought into the discussion.

[Djinn]

35. dupe

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Maybe they'll name a parochial school after her.

Any miracles attributed to her?

[efhmc]

43. Being a paragon of virtue and adherence to Catholic doctrine is near

enough in this day and age of women that can think for themselves.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

56. if women are walking wombs, what are post menopausal women? nothing? n/t

[efhmc]

103. We are the walking dead, still making noise but otherwise not worth much.

[JAbuchan08]

9. Yes,

it's the christian thing to do.\

On edit: well it was her life and her baby so I suppose it was her decision (and I should disclose that I am a man before I say this) albeit a decision I would not have made)

[uppityperson]

11. Came home to a partner who said he'd been thinking good things

about me today. Upon further questioning, he meant he was horny. So what if I just had a family member die. So what if I have a cold and sore throat. So what if "thinking good things" means you're being appreciative of someone's personality or personhood. Sex is the thing.

[efhmc]

17. Now doesn't that just show you what you are worth? A really, really

good toy for some boy. Hello, people here, even those with vaginas,and we have other parts to our bodies and those parts have needs also.

[alarimer]

13. this is like suicide to me

Yes, it was her choice but how much coercion was there by her family, Church etc.? women are still expected to be martyrs I guess.

[Betty]

16. I agree, and doesn't the church forbid suicide?

and what of the woman's right to life? With the church, you only have the right to life if you are a fetus. The mother is less entitled to live than the child she is carrying.

[efhmc]

19. Well you made my point for me: women as reproductive units, not

as individuals.

[SemperEadem]

47. or at the end of one's life

and they want to end it because they are in unremitting pain; Jack Kevorkian is sitting in a prison cell because he scared the shit out of the anti choicers.

They want to take away the right from older people in their right mind to make medical decisions about how they manage their suffering and how they end their life.

[henrik larssonisking]

67. suicide

on another thread we discussed whether this was suicide, technically according to church doctrine this is considered the same as a parent who jumps into a river to save their child and unfortunately drowns. Personally i agree with this, this lady gave her life to protect her child. Disclosure: My mother was also faced with this choice whilst she was pregnant with me.

[Undercover Owl]

33. Who knows, maybe she was suicidal.

Maybe she had been idealizing suicide for years, and this was her golden opportunity to die and stand right with her community and with her god.

Suicide-by-pregnancy..?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

63. Or maybe she just wanted her son to live

I don't know a mother who wouldn't jump into lava to save her child and people here have the audacity to cricize her CHOICE!

I doubt I could be that brave, but I admire her for her decision.

[alarimer]

70. The problem is not the decision she made

If in fact she was not coerced into making it. The real problem is that is she made the other choice, she would be villified for choosing to live.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

72. If she made the other choice

No one would have known about it. Catholic women make that choice every day and nothing happens.

[efhmc]

85. Excellent point. I think it was the worldwide gloating of the Vatican that

made me so very, very angry at their disregard for the life of the woman who was already here on earth. She did her duty, reproduced and now is disposable. Wonder what that says to girls everywhere about their value as people?

[efhmc]

105. Yeap, that's about the size of it. We alway need to prove we are "good"

enough, especially in a religion that is so antiwoman.

[proudbluestater]

18. Just repulsive.We'll have to turn the baby over to the Vatican to raise?

[Cleita]

20. It would appear that we are in many cultures and religions.

As long as women let those religions and cultures dominate us I don't see any real changes in that perception.

[Sugarbleus]

22. "Walking Wombs" and don't forget "Witches" (if we are

not compliant)........:*

[efhmc]

26. I have no problem being a womb (was one twice) or a witch but I don't

want some group of skewed white guys making that or any other decision about my life for me. Let them fix their own weird selves first and then we'll talk.

[Sugarbleus]

28. Absolutly...eom

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

55. hey! witches are very very cool people, and do not interfere with the

rights of others, so, if they call you a witch, consider it a supreme compliment.

[Sugarbleus]

129. =o).........

Hey, I think my daughter is taking a course next semester in anthropology with something in the study of witches or something like that. I was ecstatic.

My poor adult daughter is the product of extreme fundie/evangelical brainwashing (living w/ father). I've encouraged her to dump all that and explore her surroundings both the past and the future.

Strangely she seems MUCH more motivated to go forward and live positively. Wooooooooooohoooooooooooo :bounce:

[Warpy]

23. Some women are desperate to have children

even if they know they may not live to see them grow up.

I don't understand it at all, but I accept it if it's their choice.

You see, that's the operative word. Choice.

The Vatican can praise the needless death of a woman plus the prevention of the birth of any of the children she might have gone on to have had. That's their problem.

However, as long as there is a choice and a woman has made it, I can't question her.

[efhmc]

29. Well, as I said, I do not question any woman's choice that is made

without the duress and coercion of a male dominated religion who sole desire is to have control over all aspects of life, even that which is our of their hands. The way for them to do this is to make it a spiritual impossibility for a woman to think of herself as human but to be constantly deign a vessel for new life, a walking womb.

[Djinn]

36. in other words

no female Catholic can ever make up her own mind on contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality etc etc funny plenty have.

[efhmc]

46. Bingo, you finally got it.

[SemperEadem]

48. Yes she can

she can make up her mind all day long about contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality--can she put her will in motion without interference by a patriarcal construct which has decided from which options she gets to make her decision? It will be rough.

[Djinn]

52. well I know several Catholics who have

they consider themselves practising Catholics (don't ask me I don't get it either) they're on the pill or divorced or have had abortions.

obviously casting away beliefs you've been brought up with isn't easy - but not all Catholic women are automatons who do exactly what the pope says.

this woman was in MY opinion a numpty - but it's HER decision, no matter how that was influenced.

My decisions on these issues would no doubt be influenced by being the daughter of hard core lefties, maybe if I hadn't been brought up by people who advocate "baby killing" (point I am 100% pro-choice I do not beleive a fetus feels anything and I don't care at what point someone has a termination) I would see things differently.

Every single person is influenced by someone/something we can't remove that all you can do is provide the CHOICE - this woman made hers.

[RUDUing2]

80. yes she can I do it everyday as a Catholic Woman...because I have

educated myself and read both the Catchism of the Church and Canon Law on these issues. (little thing called primacy of conscience)

[Undercover Owl]

38. some women might be a little brainwashed...

...but it is still their choice to make.

Even the heavily-indoctrinated females need to figure it out for themselves. We have to give them the credit to make their own decisions, as long as they are truly in a position to make their own decisions. We "enlightened" ones don't need to be thinking for them, as they are able to think for themselves.

[henrik larssonisking]

68. i have a feeling you dont know any catholic women

if you think the matriarchs of numerous Italian catholic or Irish catholic families are brainwashed and controlled you aint ever been smacked with a frying pan for bringing home their daughter 10 mins late.

[efhmc]

84. You made my point for me again. These women take their position of

power in the realm where they are "allowed" and respected,the home. They are the mommie/madonna figure. If that daughter comes home pg, you can bet the power to make that decision will come from the true dominate factor, the patriarical supreme being on earth, the church. (BTW, about 50% of the girls I grew up with were/are catholics.)

[Goddess Nephthis]

37. I Went Through All The Responses...

And decided to reply here. I do not begrudge this woman's choice. I celebrate it because she made a choice as a woman.. Who are we to judge. There ARE other choices than to automatically choose abortion. I have two daughters, twins. I would have gladly given up my life for them in the same circumstances. Not because I feel coerced or because I am a walking womb, but out of love for my children.

I am as pro-choice as they come. The choice to carry to term or abort should be a woman's own and no one else's business. Each woman should have that choice. Having said that, for myself, I would choose life every time. But that is MY choice. Of course if I found myself pregnant now, I would have to have a SERIOUS talk with my partner, Jogabeth.

[cags]

42. Wow, I don't understand why most of you do not respect her choice

Pro-choice, doesn't that mean the right to choose. I can't believe people would put down this woman because she chose to have her baby. Nobody forced her to have it. Catholics have abortions all the time and she certainly had a medical reason. I read that she new full well that she would die and she still chose to have her child.

To say that she is stupid, brainwashed or not making her own choice is just ignorant to me. I read this woman's comments before her death, and she felt strongly that she did not want an abortion. She made her choice and it should be applauded.

[WillowTree]

58. Very well put, cags.

Pro choice should, in my opinion, mean that a woman should be free to choose either way and that, hopefully, that choice will then be respected.

Apparently most of the folks on this thread only support a woman's right to choose abortion, not her right to choose not to abort regardless of her other circumstances. And that boils down to not supporting choice at all.

[efhmc]

86. She chooses to die, rather than face the duty to care for herself and her

family, based on some male religious doctrine she has been force fed since birth,i.e.; that she is a vessel for reproduction and has no more worth as a human than that.

[cags]

88. I find this so hypocritical especially here

Many here bash christians(which I am not one) for being hypocrites and not practicing what they preach. But if they do practice what they preach they get bashed too.

This woman had cancer of her abdomen that had spread, I don't think she had a gauranty of living, just a greater chance if she had the abortion.

It does not matter that she was Catholic, she saw her child as more than a bunch of cells, and you don't need to be a Catholic to feel that way.

Just because she did not make the same choice you would have made doesn't mean that she shouldn't have made that choice for herself. Practice what you preach and allow this woman the right to make her own choice whether you agree with it or not.

[efhmc]

125. This thread is not about choice but about the glorification of this woman

as a womb, not a person. If she had made the other choice and chosen her life, which was and is also important (or are only the unborn important?) then would the Vatican be canonizing her. I think not.

[cags]

126. But that is what they believe

They believe abortion is murder. You don't have to be Catholic to believe that either. It is one of thier largest issues.

I don't see it as "a glorification of this woman as a womb, not a person."

I see it as a glorification of this womans sacrifice for her child. It was extreme yes and under Catholic rules, which someone posted above, she was able to have an abortion because her life was at risk, but she still chose to have her child. That is why they are canonizing her.

My problem is not with the people that actually follow and live by what they preach whether I believe in it or not, but with the people who don't practice what they preach.

And many people have criticized this woman for the choice that she made, and I find that so hypocritical of people who say they are pro-choice.

[Misunderestimator]

89. My issue is with treating her as a hero... would the Catholic Church...

applaud a woman who makes the sacrifice to abort in order to stay alive for the other children? It's not really about choice... it's about one choice being a ticket to sainthood and the other a ticket to hell.

[Fifth of Five]

91. Ding...ding...ding...

We have a winner!

This should not be an argument about the mother's decision. We have no way to know on what she based her decision.

The Vatican's response is the issue.

[gollygee]

102. That is exactly my problem with it

What if she made the other choice? Would she have been told it was wrong? Would she have felt guilty? It is also a sacrifice and courageous to abort a child you want so you can remain alive for your family.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

90. i respect her choice. i find the vaticans glorification of this to be

UTTERLY DESPICABLE

[Sugarbleus]

130. I understand what you are saying....it's just that

it rather irks me when the pope or the religious in general get all "excited" that this woman(any woman) lost her life to save her baby. The baby is a precious soul.........but what about the mother? Did they praise her? Did they mention how sad and what a loss it was to lose the mother? Or is that secondary to saving the baby?

My issue isn't with the woman who chooses to give her life for her child, it's with the MEN and the RELIGIOUS who seem to form erections/go into ecstacy over the event, when a woman looses HER life.

I am pro choice. I believe a woman has the right to chose to give life to her baby. I also support the woman who, for whatever reason, cannot take a pregnancy to full term and do so without recriminations.

I hope that most women do go forward with their pregnancies to welcome into the world a beautiful new human being.

I just want the government and the ultra religious to stay the heck out of women's business like that. I read a few articles recently where doctors and pharmecists were refusing to prescribe Birth Control Pills as it was against "Their" belief system. WTF? This is just too much meddling in my opinion.

Best, SB

[readmoreoften]

49. I think right now we're culturally about to become walking wombs...

I think I should beat the rush and change my username to walkingwomb604. Too bad I'm a dyke. At least I'll be a womb that's light on her feet!

[efhmc]

87. Is that the same as saying a man is "light in the loafers"? I never did

understand that term.

[rebecca_herman]

50. Well...

It was her choice to make, much as I disagree with it - especially since she already had 2 children and I think it's much more important they have their mother than the fetus have its life - but I think it's disgusting the way the Catholic church always praises praises praises the woman when something like this happens. It sends the message that it's not that all life matters, only that all not yet born life matters, screw people who are already here especially women. Although the worst thing yet I've heard of from the Catholic church was in Nicaragua where they tried to prevent the abortion of a very ill 9-year-old girl who had become pregnant from rape; if they had their way she would have died.

[henrik larssonisking]

69. we have to remember

that to this lady, this was her child not a fetus, to many the child in her womb is as important as the two other children. Its someothing people have to remember when they are discussing abortion, the distance between the two sides is so far apart that i dont think there can ever be a reconcilliation.

[gollygee]

106. But what kind of message does it send Catholic women

when making this choice starts talk of sainthood? It means that this is the right choice and the other choice is the wrong choice. That is the problem.

[Karenina]

71. I would never second guess this woman's choice.

It was HERS to make.

The pope raising a statue in her honor... Hmmm... What IS that about?
You TOO can be a SAINT??? :eyes:
Leaving this particular woman out of the discussion and focusing on patriarchal structures and their means of controlling women would work for me. It the SAME SHIT, EVERYWHERE. All over the world... :SIGH:

[JohnnyCougar]

51. Even better: walking wombs who can wash dishes and cook me dinner!!

Ok, now I have to duck and cover!

[6th Borough]

57. Of course!

Seriously, why even post this fucking topic if not for flamebait?

Why?

Trolls, back under the bridge!

[Swamp Rat]

60. Yes you are, now shut yer mouth and get in the kitchen!

[Solly Mack]

61. To those who think our primary function is to give birth, yes,...

to them our worth is tied to procreating, and all else is secondary.

To my way of thinking? Anyone who does think that way is worthless to me.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

64. Even women?

She had every legal and moral right to CHOOSE. If you expect people to support such a right, you have to understand that everyone won't choose the way you would.

[rebecca_herman]

74. the problem I have with it

Is the way the Catholic church always obsessively praises these women. It shows what they think is worth more, the fetus, not the women. The woman is only good because she chose to die for a fetus to live. If she had chosen to have an abortion because she felt being there for the children she had already had was more important, this wouldn't have ever made any type of news.

[skippysmom]

76. Bingo

I am all for choice, no matter what. She made her choice, and I support it, even if it's not one I would make myself.

But the fact that she is being practically beatified creates the expectation that we should all be like her and honor the fetus at the expense of the mother. That's my issue with it.

[efhmc]

92. That is exactly the point. It is the value of the person, a woman, that

is in question here, not her right to make a choice.

[Cheswick2.0]

100. yes and we have a right to say what we think about why she made

that choice.

[Solly Mack]

65. self delete

cause I really just don't give a fuck what some people think

[orpupilofnature57]

66. NO,their not.But as we see in all parts of the world,Iraq mostly...

Faith overrides sense,especially in modern times because of what has been pulled off, in the name of common sense.Shrub sense.

[One_Life_To_Give]

77. Poor analogy

This woman chose to give her life for her child. And all you can do is criticize? Should we laud the mothers of children with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome?

[efhmc]

96. What are you talking about? This is a thread about the value of women

as more than reproductive organs. If I am criticizing anyone or anything it is society, religion and people who can only see women as objects meant to bring life into the world, not as individual humans,whose lives apart from their reproductive capabilites, are also important.

[One_Life_To_Give]

109. Then you should confine criticism to

the issue of forcing women to bear children. Be it abortion rights or access to birht control.

But what this woman did was heroic. She sacrificed herself for her child. Praise for her sacrifice is justified.

[efhmc]

114. If you cannot see that that is what is at issue here, then you are in the

wrong spot. At issue is a society that values women who are meek and submissive and who follow the religious and cultural guidelines that makes her worth so much more when she is "good" and reproduces at all costs. She becomes a hero if she kills herself (because by refusing treatment that is what she did) and leaves her family without a mother so another baby can be born into this world. That is sick and sad, not heroic.

[One_Life_To_Give]

122. When the grenade comes I will remember to

Not fall on it.

[henrik larssonisking]

132. the issue here

this is heroic, to many people who follow the same faith she did. as i said earlier the distance between your beliefs and the beliefs of this lady is produably insurmountable. YOu seem to believe that any women who shares this faith is brainwashed and can only be saved by following your life example, way to go being tolerant of anothers beliefs.

[RUDUing2]

81. I believe in choice..even if I disagree with the choice...this woman made

the choice that was right for her. I support her right to make this choice even while I disagree on a personal basis that it was the right choice..but you know what I don't get to make the choice for someone else..and I don't want to...for the same reason I don't want someone else to make the choice for me.

I can not call my self pro-choice and then condemn someone who makes a choice to abort or not to abort, just because I disagree with their choice.

[JerseygirlCT]

83. It's not the choice, per se

it's the celebration of this particular choice by the Vatican...

I agree, it's a sick choice, but entirely hers to make. I think the Vatican's statements weigh her choice as the best, most honorable choice. On that, I disagree entirely.

[RUDUing2]

93. I do as well..but again I have to allow others to view it in the way they

do. the Vatican is adamently anti-abortion in all situations...and that is their right. I don't have to agree with them, even as a catholic..but I do have to allow them to believe as they see right...as long as they did not physically lock the woman up and prevent her from having an abortion that she wanted..

[JerseygirlCT]

82. And yet

the pope's live is valuable enough to have him travel in the bullet-proof pope-mobile. Hers, apparently, is disposable -- in favor of the new child's.

Sick, sick, sick.

[atommom]

99. What, you didn't get the memo?

While I agree that this woman was free to make the choice she did, I can see the noose tightening a little more every day.

[TWiley]

104. Yes, and I am the life support system for an oversized penis.

The christian supremists view all human affairs with the litmus sex test. We are nothing more than reproducing worker bees who are destined only to worship the shrub and other holy figures.

[efhmc]

115. They are so obsessed with this stuff that they place very little value on

those who are already here.

[TWiley]

128. They generally view those who are already here

with contempt anyway. According to their beliefs, a new born child is guilty of sin somehow, and headed for hell.

They lament because more are not being born, and they hate them as soon as they arrive.

This is why you must believe their positions on "faith" alone. They do not make much sense otherwise.

[henrik larssonisking]

133. jeez waay to go there

Any catholics reading this post are going to be shocked that you actually believe that their faith teaches them to hate their children, i guess you must get different memos from the vatican than the rest of us.

[TWiley]

134. Who said anything about Catholicism?

I was referring to the type of religious intolerance for other cultures that has become so pervasive again.

Your faith does not teach you to "hate" your children, but since you brought it up, is it not against the rules to marry someone outside of your faith? What is up with that? Are they sub-standard beings?

Is it not true that God will not allow those into "heaven" who do not follow your practice? Evidently, God dislikes the children of other faiths as well.

The history of Christian missionaries in the world gives a detailed account of how little respect anyone with different beliefs has been given. All must be converted, or they are merely "heathens" destined to be burned in the fires of hell.

Spare the unborn, and support the war to kill the living Iraqis? Oh thats right, they are not Christian, and therefore not us. To me, this hypocrisy is just a "holy" form of tribalism.

This is the type of mindset i was referring to.

[ieoeja]

107. Yes

[Kathryn7]

117. My sister was in a somewhat similar situation.

She had malignant melanoma and was 6 1/2 months pregnant. Doctor's wanted to induce the baby and remove her entire lymph system. She made the choice to continue to carry the baby until he was more viable. She passed away about 10 months later, when the baby boy was 8 months old. That baby is 27 years old now and he is very thankful that she gave him his life. Later the doctors' told her it wouldn't have made any difference in her outcome. As far as the Catholic Church, she could have had him induced to save her own life, she chose however to give him a better chance.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

123. I think that is a rational decision too.

It's a hard decision to make, but I think it is rational. I think this woman's decision was based on what would be best for her family, not what anyone else thinks. It's very likely that this woman didn't have much of a chance of survival even with treatment. I think it would only be logical to choose to give birth to the child, if the child has a greater chance of surviving than the mother. I think I would make the same decision if I were in a similar circumstance.

It's a very sad situation, but I think it's wonderful that the woman was able to give birth and enjoy her child before passing on. I'm sure the life of this child was a great comfort to her as she was dealing with her terminal illness. I don't think this story is about men's power over women, or religion controlling people's minds. This story is about the great love a mother has for her child.

[efhmc]

124. They told her LATER? What kind of advise is that?

[Triana]

118. I think they'd LIKE it to be that way...

...but it is not and will not be if we fight it. It's damned sad that we have to fight shit like this in 2005 but if we don't, then we will be reduced to naught but incubators for their offspring with no say and no choices about our own bodies or our own lives - because that is obviously what they want.

[UdoKier]

120. This woman had a choice.

She could have chosen treatment for herself and possibly longer life, but she chose the church's kooky dogma.

Or perhaps, she simply wanted her child to live more than herself.

At any rate, she made the choice, and I respect her right to do as she pleases with her life.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

121. Apparently, *God* wanted her dead.

After all, according to Catholic teaching, God is the author of all things. So, *HE* decided that giving her cancer was a swell idea. And, the Vatican is praising *HIS* benevolence and her martyrdom in bringing another likeness of *HIM* into the world.

One of the many reasons I left the Church.

[tedzbear]

127. The Poop should go see "Million Dollar Baby" and shut the fuck up.

He has no business mandating people's morality after his minions sexually molested countless kids and then tried to cover it up.

:puke:

[ultraist]

131. Misogyny: "Adam was decieved by Eve"

I'm not going to pass judgement on this woman, especially not having all of the facts, perhaps she was terminal and abortion would have only extended her life a few months. Regardless, it was her choice and no one should be forced to have an abortion.

What I do have strong oppionions about is the rampant misogyny that permeates many religions, including Catholicism. Perpetuating misogynistic attitudes is not only a disservice to women but society at large. Thomas Aquinas stated, “A male is the beginning and end of woman, as God is the beginning and end of every creature.” Studies of misogyny have revealed a long history of mysogynistic *values* within the churches.

snips
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2003b/042503/042503s.htm
"In her work, Raming documents a shocking tradition of misogyny -- a misogyny that she has rightly insisted underlies the arguments used in canon law to justify gender discrimination in the church. • According to the medieval canonists, women are inferior from the very moment of creation. The most complete explanation for this occurs in the work of the12th-century scholar, Huguccio, which became the model for later writers on this point.

“A male and not a female is said to be the glory of God for three reasons. First, because God appeared more powerful and more glorious in the creation of males than of females, for the glory of God was manifested principally through man since God made him per se and from the slime of the earth against nature, but the female was made from the man. Second because man was made by God with nothing mediating, which is not the case for the female. Third, because a man principally glorifies God, that is with nothing mediating, but a female glorifies God through the mediation of a male since a male teaches and instructs the female for the glorification of God.”

• The very word for women in Latin, mulier, was said to come from mollicie mentis (softness of mind) while the word for male, vir comes from animi virtute (strength or virtue of soul). Women then are unable to be a reliable witness, or judge or administrator since they are by nature inferior. The late 14th-century canonist, Aegidius de Bellamera, put it bluntly: “But why are women removed from civil and public offices? The reason is because they are fragile and usually less discerning.” And further, “The reason for the difference is on account of the fragility, imbecility and less natural constancy and discernment of women.”

• Commenting on the ability of women to offer testimony in court cases, the standard commentary on canon law (Glossa ordinaria) written in the 13th century, snidely remarked, “What is lighter that smoke? A breeze. What is lighter than a breeze? The wind. What is lighter than the wind? A woman. What is lighter than a woman? Nothing.” Not only were women naturally weaker in will and mind than men, but also in body. Following Pope Gregory the Great, the canonists called menstruation a defect of women’s nature that carried severe consequences. Balsamon, the 12th-century Orthodox authority on canon law, explained that menstruation was the reason for the disbanding of the office of deaconess. The Western canonists followed Isidore of Seville in describing the horrible effects of menstruation: “And in fact this blood is so detestable and unclean that … through contact with it, fruits do not produce, wine turns sour, plants die, trees lack fruit, the air darkens; if dogs eat , they are then made wild with madness.”


####
•The material uncovered by Raming leaves little doubt that the picture of women presented in Christianity has often been deeply misogynist. This is a sin that has still not been adequately addressed, or in some cases even admitted, in either official or unofficial church circles. Thanks to Raming, it will now be ever more difficult to avoid acknowledging this horrifying legacy.

Gary Macy is a theology professor at the University of San Diego. His e-mail address is [e-mail]

National Catholic Reporter, April 25, 2003