Recently, and for the first time, I'm truly spooked by Islamic terrorism

[accipiter]

I've always seen it as a problem, but one that would eventually go away. Bush might not do it, but eventually it would burn out like a fire running out of fuel. But last night I saw an episode of Frontline on PBS, about Al Queda in Europe. I realized that these people are serious, and they want to restore the Caliphate, the old Islamic empire. The following is the thread I posted about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3007224

Then The Well has an online conversation up between two writers who debate what an Islamic religious based empire would be like.

http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/

[Bluebear]

1. Meanwhile the Dominionists want us to be a Christian theocracy

And my god is better than your god, and so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby. Where will it end?

[BiggJawn]

64. Yeah, those are the guys who spook me...

Because they're here, they're getting elected to our school boards and state legislatures with their eyes on the prize.

And most people don't give them any thought, because, well, they love Jesus, how bad can THAT be?

Dominionists v. Islamic Radicals is like that story about boiling frogs. To try and bring a "Caliphate" to America would be the same as throwing a frog into a rolling pot.

The Dominionists are turning up the heat EVER so slowly...Right now, it's kinda warm and comfy in the pot.

[jdj]

78. yep, different folks, same gobbledygook and control issues and

self-hatred.

I saw the show, it spooked me too.

The only reason Christians don't do car-bombings and terrorism every day. is because it would make them look bad. So they have to be more subtle. That subtley is dangerous to us however, because it contributes to liberal and progressive complacecency. They creep like a cancer and we haven't noticed til a large percent of the body is now malignant.

[alittlelark]

2. Personally, I'm more spooked by PNACer terror

....but, whatever.

[accipiter]

4. The point is that they are making it WORSE

That Frontline documentary clearly shows this.

[alittlelark]

7. Whack a hornets nest w/ a baseball bat....................................

[ThorsHammer]

3. I dislike extremists on both sides

Islamic terrorists do scare me, but I'm also not a fan of the Rapture, 'kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out' crowd either.

[accipiter]

5. neither am I, they are making it worse

The point is that things may be getting worse.

[ThorsHammer]

8. Can anyone clarify the Koran's teachings?

I've heard some people say that it teaches Islam is the only true religion, and that it is their jihad to conquer others for Islam. Others say that they respect Christians, and that jihad is an internal struggle and not a holy war. I've had minimal experience with Islam, and was hoping someone here knew more about this.

[DrWeird]

12. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Christianity teaches it's the only true religion and that blasphemers should be killed or converted, yadayadayada. Yes, muslims respect Christians. Christians helped Mohammed, and muslims have been respectful of Christians ever since. Not that said history is important, muslims are just as respectful towards other people as anybody else. If not more so.

[ThorsHammer]

15. I know that part

I know that and also that 99% of Muslims are good people who don't want any part of the terrorists. However, I have seen the terrorists claim that it is a holy war, the Christians must be defeated, etc, and cite the Koran as support. From my basic understanding, the main issue is the interpretation of jihad as an internal or external struggle.

[DulceDecorum]

35. 2001: Leading Causes of Death in the US

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/Crash/LCOD/

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html

Terrorism?
ABSENT.


When Mr. Oogie Boogie says
There's trouble close at hand
You'd better pay attention now
'Cause I am the Boogie Man
And if you aren't shakin'
Then there's something very wrong
'Cause this may be the last time now
That you hear the boogie song, ohhh

[accipiter]

37. I'm thinking of the future, not the past

Isn't it possible it all could get a whole hell of a lot worse?

[Ms. Clio]

39. Sure, if the U.S. keeps invading countries and building bases

all over Central Asia, things could get a helluva lot worse.

Or do you think this all happens in a historical vacuum?

[PsychoDad]

75. Just remember my friend...

so called "christians" use the bible to support shooting of doctors who perform abortions.

As a muslim, I can assure you that the Quran teaches tolerance, denounces agression and advocates the use of violence only as a last resort to defend yourself and your family from opression, and that even within limits. "muslims" who claim otherwise do not represent Islam any more than Clinic bombers represent the teachings of Christ.

[ThorsHammer]

81. Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for

Like I said above, I didn't mean to offend you or the other 99% of Muslims who are good people. What you said was the same understanding I had. I think what I was thinking of was that the "Muslim" terrorists claimed oppression and that this justified their acts. I agree with you that some "Christians" are guilty of the same, and I don't support their actions either.

[Clark2008]

60. Correct

"Blessed are those who say, 'We are the Christians,' for they are the believers..."

Surah 5.

Now, in all fairness, Muslims don't like Jews. They blame them for Jesus's death and, since they don't think Jesus was the Son of God, dying for our sins, they believe the killing wasn't necessary for the continuance of the Christian religion. They just believe the Jews murdered a great prophet.

[chookie]

49. Pick and choose

Documents take on a life of their own, and are constantly re-interpreted, politically.

There's no such thing as a "religious war" in fact -- it's always politics and power in war. In order to get (relatively) free people to fight, the opposing sides foment polarity and extremism and absolute causes. As Jake confessed to Elwood -- it's just bullshit.

[hfojvt]

52. I find it to be more tolerant than the Bible

It says often, like Surah 2:62 or Surah 5:69 - "Believers (Muslims), Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall have nothing to fear or regret."
Still, that passage goes on to reject the divinity of Jesus and the teaching of the trinity. The Prophet expects Christians and Jews to recognize the word of God in the Koran and to accept it. If they reject Islam then they are probably false Christians as the Bible is filled with stories of people rejecting the prophets.
It also says, in Surah 2:190 - "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors."
So Bush really gave them an opening there, by being the aggressor in Iraq.

[ThorsHammer]

84. That is the passage I was thinking of

I knew they respected Christians and Jews as fellow believers, but still thought the Koran was the definitive answer. My understanding was that the 'fight' part could either be fighting to win their minds (internal struggle), or having wars (external). That last Surah you quoted would give them some justification in their minds.

Don't want to take this too far off-topic, but I feel awful for the vast majority of Iraqis. They got rid of an awful leader, only to see the U.S remain, and also be terrorized by their own people who don't want them to vote. In hindsight Bush 41 looks extremely smart for not going into Baghdad the first time.

[ashmanonar]

86. bush 41 wasn't as craaaazy as bush 43.

bush 41 was actually probably more dangerous than 43, he was actually intelligent...

[ashmanonar]

85. the monotheists don't care for the polytheistic religions tho.

none of them do.

[southlandshari]

54. A couple of things

I've actually read the Koran (in English), though am far from a religious scholar. But for what it is worth, I AM married to a Muslim - named Jihad - and have lived in the Middle East and speak fluent Arabic. Most of my in-laws have made the pilgrimige to Mecca, and have taught me a lot about their faith.

I can tell you this - "jihad" in Arabic does indeed mean "moral struggle" or "to persist in doing what is good in God's eyes". Unfortunately some - the minority - of the world's Muslims interpret that moral struggle as the call to do violence in the name of Islam. The vast majority do not. My husband got his name because he is the youngest child in a large family and his mother had a difficult pregnancy and delivery - his name was supposed to be Yusef (Joseph) up until his birth.

Christianity has a much, much stronger emphasis on evangelism (or seeking converts, by love or by force) than any other religion I know of (I'm a former missionary), though there are some organized Muslim efforts to reach out to potential new converts around the world. Muslims consider Christianity to be the predecessor for their religion, not a separate faith altogether. The Koran teaches that Jesus was a great prophet, that his was a divine birth - just about everything the Bible professes about him. One of the main theological divergences on Jesus in Christianity and Islam is the point of his actual divinity - was Jesus himself God? The idea of the trinity in Christianity says yes, Islam says no, that there is only one God, Jesus was his messenger but not his incarnate on earth.

Like I said, I'm not a scholar by a long shot, but I hope this might help a bit.

[LittleClarkie]

55. Neither am I, but in that way, Islam reminds me of Judaism

In that both seem to see Jesus as a great prophet or teacher, but not the son of God.

Of course, that would also make Jesus cockoo for cocoa puffs for saying that he was, but then of course that might have been some creative editing on the part of later followers overly influenced by pagan converts.

Or something.

[ThorsHammer]

82. Thank you, that does help

Like I said above, the vast majority of both Muslims and Christians are good people who tolerate other people's religions. The nutty faction of each side, although the minority by far, unfortunately creates a disproportionate amount of problems. I just wish there was some way for the saner supermajorities on both sides to rein in the whackos.

[Dorian Gray]

73. I've read it...

It can be interpreted both ways, I suppose. Though, I have to say that it doesn't teach "respect" for Christianity, so much. It does teach that there can be "good" Christians and Jews, but they are few and far between.

The Koran is an interesting read, though. I'm happy that I read the whole book, trying to find answers to questions I had about Muslim terrorism. Of course, I didn't find all the answers that I was looking for, but it is an interesting read.

[susanna]

13. So, accipiter, ya think so?

So, in your humble opinion, what should be done about it? I'm curious.

edited to speak directly

[accipiter]

16. I know the war in Iraq is making things worse

I guess I think the main hope is the younger generation. I remember reading an article about a video store clerk in SA who was a devout Muslim. But he loved American movies, and he good taste too. There are lots of young Muslims like that in Iran too. I guess we have to make sure they grow up not hating us, and wanting to live peacefully in the world.

Part of the reason we 'won' the cold war is cuz we captured the hearts and minds of the young generation behind the iron curtain. Ya know, they smuggled in rock and roll and western movies.

But that Frontline disturbed me cuz the people they interviewed in Europe, the hard core Islamics were so opposed to us. And they are getting some traction with the younger followers, recruiting them to go to Iraq as suicide bombers, etc. Then it's tied up into trying to restore the old empire.

[DulceDecorum]

47. Were those real Muslims or ACTORS?

The Bush Administration PR machine has been known to hire actors
A) to pretend that he got the popular vote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31074-2005Jan23.html

B) to pretend that people wanted to campaign/vote for him
http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004110101010

C) to pretend that the Iraqis were happy to see the US military arrive in person
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm

What Muslim in the right mind would go on record on some fool TV show?
Unless he was
A) not really a Muslim, and/or
B) PAID, and paid hansomely.

Bush has NO credilbity whatsoever
and neither does the press which backs his maudlin tales.

[underseasurveyor]

17. Are you hinting that the time has come

to 'choose sides'? Us or them?

Of course it's getting worse Like someone else said, wack a hornets nest with a bat:eyes:

[accipiter]

19. 'sides' is almost an outmoded concept

I know I'm definetaly not on the side of the Islamic extremists. Nor am I on the side of the Bush admin's Iraq policy which is a reckless path that has made things worse.

I'm just saying I'm a little freaked as things may be getting worse.

I'm on the side of perserving our democracy and the side of eventual peace.

But a tipping has been passed I think. Even getting rid of Bush in '08 ain't gonna make it all right now.

[underseasurveyor]

28. Everything about the bush admin.

is Criminally and Willfully reckless, not just their so called Iraq policy.

PNAC concerns me much more than 'terrorists'. What's to fear, a terrorists will only kill you once. I find the alternative a far more agonizing fate.

It may be to late for change to make things right, but we should never stop trying.

[sweetheart]

65. Ok, so lets "not" be paranoid and be proactive

How do we end terrorism? Today.

Well, we depose the criminal slodoban and his nationalist warmongers
in congress and put them on trial for war crimes. Just like with
serbia, bush is EXACTLY like slodoban, creating ethnic strife for
political ends, and we must recognize that to end terrorism, we must
get tough with our terrorists.

Then we add an amendment to the constitution to end corporate personhood.
The cause of US terrorism is the corporate media, and corporate fascism
which can be ended by removing corporate rights that have been abused.

Then we issue an edict to the world that today the wars are over. The
world's people have won. The terrorists are in custody. All american
govrnment programmes with the word "WAR" in them are declared over and
all budgets switched towards reparations. All troops are called home
immediately, that we are observing a global truce, and are eschewing
violence and war crimes as a national policy.

These 3 things, alone will end terrorism for ours and our kids generation
overnight. The people attack us, because we are STILL attacking them,
and they will do so, out of legitimate self defense until our army
gets the hell out of their back yard... it is only sensible, and
i don't buy that "freaked out as things may be getting worse." is
anything but a vapourous state of mind, and not the least bit
substantive.

America has had 1 attack on 9/11 and some attacks previously on
embassies abroad all orchestrated by the same crew of criminals, whose
very existance will be diffused by our getting the hell out of their
neighborhood. The way forward is to have an open peace conference
and to put on the table ALL measures to restore goodwill across the
planet without arms... without bombs and bankrupting the treasury in
foreign wars.

It is increasingly evident that ameirca does not deserve an empire,
so it will lose it as long as slodoban and his war generals remain
in Belgrade DC.

[DulceDecorum]

21. Islamic banks do not charge interest

which means that a mortgage can be paid off in under ten years.
How is this "making it worse?"

Take a good hard look at what has ALREADY HAPPENED to the US
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d101:HJ00173:@@@L&summ2=m&
and then decide if PNAC and the neo-cons have improved the place.

This is their agenda.
http://www.ukar.org/gore10.html

Jan. 25, 2005
Orly Benny-Davis has come a long way from her youth in Ramat Gan. Today a well-known US political activist, Benny-Davis ran for the senate last year in her home state of South Carolina. On Monday night, she was in Jerusalem to attend the 11th annual Temple Mount dinner and to help speed up the construction of the third temple.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1106537800119

Wednesday, April 3, 2002
The reason why the Christian right has been funneling money into the West Bank is because they are trying to force the Rapture.
According to Evangelical Christian beliefs, the Jews will rebuild the Temple Mount. When that happens the Lord will take all Born Again Christians up into heaven with him where they will live at his right hand for ever and ever Amen.
But the Jews will not rebuild the Temple Mount because they are all impure from having stepped upon the earth which has dead people buried in it. In order for them to be pure, they must get a pure red heifer that was born in Israel and burn it. The ashes will be mixed with water and this will be used to purify the builders and priests of the temple.
Reverend Clyde Lott , an Evangelical cattle breeder, has been working with American-Born Rabbi Richman and West Bank settlers to genetically create a perfect red cow. The West Bank is currently populated with Palestinian Muslims who are sworn to protect the Al Aqsa Mosque which must be destroyed because it currently sits exactly where they intend to build the Temple Mount. They also need a male who has taken his bar mitzvah (he would be at least 13 years old) who has been raised "in a bubble" never touching the earth or anything that has become ritually unclean.
According to the Jews, the Messiah will come once the temple is built.
According to the Christians, the Jews will almost all die once the Temple is built and an antichrist immediately moves into it.
According to the Muslims, both the Christians and the Jews will die violent and bloody deaths if they attempt to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque.
No, I am not hallucinating!
We are about to see the biggest mass suicide ever.
Furthermore, if you listen to the Christians, there also has to be a war with Persia (Iran) around this same time.
http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd040302.html
Dubya is convinced that he is Moshiach ben Yosef
and so he is bound and determined to attack Iran,
for religious reasons.
His comrades pitch in,
but more for the oil that they they think they will loot.

The only thing standing between us and Armageddon
is a small determined band of Palestinians.
Their struggle is our struggle.
And as long as they can hold out, there will be a planet to live on.

[accipiter]

23. huh?

Your post is out there my friend.

[DulceDecorum]

40. No less than you

The point is that the US has another pressing concern concerning moving vans and art students and calls in the middle of the night.

While the purpose of the mysterious call to Perle is still unclear, a source with knowledge of Franklin’s calls suggested that Franklin might have been trying to warn Perle and Chalabi that conflict between the counterintelligence community and the neoconservatives and the Chalabi camp was spinning out of control.
Unbeknownst to Franklin, the FBI was listening.
By the time Franklin phoned Perle, Franklin had been under surveillance for at least a year by the FBI’s counterintelligence division, which is led by controversial counterintelligence chief David Szady. Franklin had been monitored since a meeting June 26, 2003, at the Tivoli Restaurant in Virginia, where he discussed a classified Iran policy document with officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13528

But please don't stop voicing your concerns.
Post some more about the terrible danger we are in
and let us continue to compare notes.

[w13rd0]

6. What do you get...

...when you combine a fundamentalist, of the belief that they serve a pivotal role in some end-times drama, with military power and/or nuclear arsenals? A scary scenario. I oppose having anyone with a belief in the afterlife in a position over a button that could wipe out all of mankind. No one should have that kind of power. Ever.

[Yupster]

9. I like to visit a website

www.askimam.com

It's a site where Muslims can ask questions of religious leaders. A lot of the questions revolve around Muslims living in western countries and how much are they allowed to participate in the life and culture of the country they live in.

Anyway, one person in college asked a sensible question. Basically, we're studying government and economics in college, and I'd like to know what would an Islamic government look like? How would leaders be chosen.

Here's the link with the answer...

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6831

Basically there are three ways a ruler can be chosen in an Islamic government.

1. People can pledge allegiance to someone who becomes the leader.
2. A leader can appoint a new leader before he dies.
3. A leader can appoint a group of learned citizens to appoint a new leader after he dies.

I admit this is disconcerting to me.

[PsychoDad]

77. the first way

In the west is called voting.

It was the method advocated by the Prophet(saw), and used in the early caliphate where the leaders were chosen by the Ummah (society) and where answerable to the people.

[DustMolecule]

10. The trouble always begins

when people start sticking their religion in other peoples faces...instead of quietly, respectfully believing what they want to believe. And attracting other people to their religion because of the way they live their own life, not an easy or common thing, but worthy nonetheless...start with me, Lord, etc......

Also, when religions force their young women to 'believe', even though those women, in their heart-of-hearts are going "no-no-no", but they are offered no means of escape...something is wrong there....

[sweetheart]

11. So we've moved on from "terrorists might do" to just paranoia

I can't help but observe what you bring us here on DU 2 threads on
being afraid of some ideology based on some TV programmes.

You should have a look at "the power of nightmares", and how such
TV programmes as you're watching are designed to spread paranoia and
fear like a social sickness, so that people will be willing to endorse
barbarious military acts, and pay billions for war AND having their
civil rights invaded.

Come on mate, there are nutty wankers all over the planet, and indeed,
the battle rages inside each and every one of us. It is a personal
choice to let these things makes us afraid and intimidate us, or to
turn off the propaganda virus television and notice that the sun
still rises in the east.

The radicals are only powerful if we give them airtime in our hearts.
They will scream and create a gazillion rationales why you should take
your life energy and give it to them to squander for fear and loathing.
As this continues, they only demand more.... cut off the heroin
supply, and try cold turkey... maybe go and help out at a homeless
shelter to get in touch with the real pain and suffering in life...
not some fantasy dominion or caliphate... but disease, addiction,
poverty and spiritual poverty.

Cheer up and lay off the hard stuff. :-)

[accipiter]

14. Frontline is a respected news program

They don't do propaganda. In fact, it's one of the best programs to watch on TV, period.

[chookie]

38. Yes and no

They *do* propaganda, not always, but at least sometimes.

They do "propaganda" I like sometimes -- but I recognize it, still, as opinion and not Truth.

Have a closer look. They have a number of different producers with differing viewpoints. Which show.

The show you refer to presented a single facet of the story -- not the whole picture. Other "Frontline" documentaries have dealt with other facets of the story.

I agree it is a good show, but I run everything I see and hear through my own critical faculties of judgement.

[sweetheart]

61. The ontology of propaganda

You don't recognize that the very program itself, the choice to make it
and air the subject itself is propaganda. The programme could just as
well have been made about the global deaths from bad water supplies,
or from AIDS in africa, but that is not going to get riveted atention
as geesh, you've not only seen it, but are raving about it online on
a political party website that the choice to air that particular
segment was exceptionally effective. (propaganda)

Like yourself, i could log in to DU every week, and make up a fear
headline about how i'm deeply afraid of islamic terrorism and make up
a reason every single week... and if i worked on it, i could make it
sound especially punchy, and probably draw out a lotta poison that
the public mind of DU would be so "infected" once per week from
sweetheart's weekly terrorists might do thread. That is a joke you
don't get so much as i've been calling the "terrorists might do" threads
now for some time... Liquid natual gas tankers oooh my! Suicide
limousines Oh my! shoulder fired rockets at commercial aircraft oh my!
Ricin in the water supply oh my! Lions and tigers and bears oh my!

You are selling the power of nightmares. WHomever can tell the
must scary horror story gets the prize and we all worship with
fear. Years ago, we'd call it "campfire yarns"... but these days
its the food of political expediency and the republican adgenda... so
as i said, it sometimes helps to not be programmed by the media,
by their very choice to "inform" you of this noise... laying off the
hard stuff.

peace,
-s

[JCMach1]

18. Absolute paranoia and poppycock...

The people you are talking about ar less than 1%ers

The lunatic fringe of the Muslim world... much like our righ-wing loony fringe in this country.

[accipiter]

20. maybe so

but if things get worse, those ranks may swell.

[Skink]

22. Wahabbism...

Teaches that life is an eternal Jihad and even other Muslims are at risk unless they follow a path toward purity.
It's kind of the same feeling the repugs have about capitalism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Listen to JCMach1

He actually lives and works in the Middle East.

[DulceDecorum]

32. Contrary to current judeo-christian pop culture

Muslims do not foam at the mouth like rabid dogs.

The numerals you use are Arabic
as are so many other things that you take for granted.
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/science.htm

Osama bin Laden was a business partner of the Bush family.
Dubya was in deep doodoo on September 10 and it was ll he could do to prevent the press from stating bluntly that he had stolen the election and Gore had more electoral college votes than him.
The economy was tanking and impeachment was about to commence.
Then September 11 happened.
Bush scored the trifecta,
and made it home in time for bed.

It's no surprise to learn that many of the new laws passed in the aftermath of 9/11 had been proposed long before that date. The attacks merely provided an excuse to do many things previously proposed by dedicated statists.
All too often government acts perversely, professing to advance liberty while actually doing the opposite. Dozens of new bills passed since 9/11 promise to protect our freedoms and our security. In time we will realize there is little chance our security will be enhanced or our liberties protected.
<snip>
Policing the world, spreading democracy by force, nation building, and frequent bombing of countries that pose no threat to us – while leaving the homeland and our borders unprotected – result from a foreign policy that is contradictory and not in our self interest.
http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=4607

Perhaps it is time that the US considered getting a rabies shot.
For itself.

[Gulf Coast J]

34. That 1% is really fucking things up though

They are the lunatic fringe and I have no reason to doubt that they are less than one percent of the population. But for God's sake: the Madrid train bombing, Zarqawi and his followers, 9/11, Bali and more. How much damage do these fuckers have to do before it becomes more than just paranoia.

If 1% of Christians were in the KKK, would you be so apathetic to the harm they caused.

[DulceDecorum]

44. BRING THE TROOPS HOME

why should they be stuck in place filled to the brim with creatures such as those?

[Yupster]

45. You can add the Philippines

Chad, Sudan, Nigeria, Kashmir, and more.

It's a lot of places all over the world.

[sweetheart]

63. But those attacks were not "random"

Part of the fear quotient here is that the terrorists will just up
and attack the town hall in the place where "YOU" live, or the local
terrorist target factory, weapons dump, fuel depo, ...

In reality, the attacks you mention were deliberate symbolic strikes
based on american military attacks, and alliances, each targeting
specific rationales.

9/11... don't we all know. Recall that osama said that what made him
envision this strike was the american sponsored war in beruit... so
we can think of it as karmic fruit from an evil thing we did... and BTW
our original terrorist act killed many more civilians than the fruit.

Madrid was for Spain supporting the criminal war, right at the poll,
and was near enough predictable...

The bomb at the british embassy in turkey was timed to go off exactly
when blair and bush shook hands in london... at the symbolic gate of
the occident.

Each of these attacks is NOT random, but is targeting nations that
consider themselves above the law, but that pursue and adgenda of
spreading terrorism (USA, Britain, spain, Australia) as what has the
war on terrorism REALLY done but spread terror in to other peoples
homes... geesh, ain't it bleedin obvious that the attacks are
retaliation for crimes done... and not just random.

So to end the terrorism, we should end our terrorism... its that
simple. Instead, the american people are supporting terrorism, and
like the german people so many years before are wondering why they
are being attacked when hitler has made them sound so righteious in
their great german purpose to liberate the east.

So yes its paranoia, as it destroys our free society and the price is
not worth the benefit. Get the army home from terrorism and lets
try our terrorist war criminals under our laws to show we want to
end terrorism.

[Gulf Coast J]

99. You can't get much more random than 9/11

Using commercial airlines full of innocent people to attack 'symbolic' targets is hardly a coherent way to advance your policy aims. It doesn't matter if these people have a point. Tim McVeigh and his ilk probably had a decent point, but the second the Murrah Building blew up those fuckers needed to be wiped off the map.

Sure the US and the rest of the world has done bad things that need to be corrected. Let's the correct those things the way rational, liberal, civilized people correct past wrongs. But save me this karmic justice bullshit that radical Muslim terrorists somehow deserve to be listened to.

[bpilgrim]

100. who'd ever thunk-it, eh?

are you channeling condi?

everyone, especially your ENEMY, deserves to be listened to if you hope to win.

psst... if we continue to oppress and kill millions of people around the world there will certainly be a reaction as horrific as all are past actions, law of physics actually.

i know what we fear most is whats in our own hearts, and knowing what we are capable of most our shitting bricks.


noam chomsky does a good job explaining why we've been so 'involved' around the world here...

What Uncle Sam Really Wants

Noam Chomsky

Copyright © 1993
Table of Contents

The main goals of US foreign policy

1. Protecting our turf
2. The liberal extreme
3. The "Grand Area"
4. Restoring the traditional order
5. Our commitment to democracy
6. The threat of a good example
7. The three-sided world

Devastation abroad

1. Our Good Neighbor policy
2. The crucifixion of El Salvador
3. Teaching Nicaragua a lesson
4. Making Guatemala a killing field
5. The invasion of Panama
6. Inoculating Southeast Asia
7. The Gulf War
8. The Iran/contra cover-up
9. The prospects for Eastern Europe
10. The world's rent-a-thug

Brainwashing at home

1. How the Cold War worked
2. The war on (certain) drugs
3. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
4. Socialism, real and fake
5. The media

The Future

1. Things have changed
2. What you can do
3. The struggle continues
4. Notes

read online...
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html

psst... pass the word

peace

[sweetheart]

103. It seems a nation of terrorists only listens to terrorism

What exactly does stop the american land grab in the middle east, the
spread of torture and militarism from the CIA and whatnot? Attacking
the WTC, a command and control HQ for american finance is actually a
rather obvious target, and considering the really horrible terrorism that
america did in beruit, overthrowing the iranian government, arming
saddam to wage an ugly war against iran and so much other terrorism,
it would be very very obvious for an opponent to attack the principal
HQ's of such a terrorist.

If we put aside that for a moment, you have a contradiction in your last
line that IS the very crux of the issue today.
"civilized people correct past wrongs. But save me this karmic justice
bullshit that radical Muslim terrorists somehow deserve to be
listened to."

One cannot but agree with your first 5 words here... just the second
sentence is a value judgement you've made using your sources, that
keeps you from pursuing the former.... its an infinite conundrum, as
you cannot end terrorism with the barrell of a gun, and you can't end
it by not listening and negotiating with your opponent. So you embody
the microcosm of this war of terrorism... are you willing to put down
your presumption, and to listen and discuss rather than murder and
kill. It seems on a relative scale, that any islamic fundamentalist
could easily make the same statement you made in reverse:
"civilized people correct past wrongs. But save me this karmic justice
bullshit that radical American terrorists somehow deserve to be
listened to."

Both sides have crawled out on to a ledge and both need to get humble
and come back from their extreme positions if we're to end this.

[IrateCitizen]

93. How much damage have they REALLY caused???

I mean, let's do a death toll of the damage they've caused.

Then, by comparison, let's look at the death toll of just the US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I would bet dollars to donuts that you'd find a higher death toll from US actions as opposed to al Qaeda actions. Then tell me what the real source of violence in the world is.

Perhaps if the US were to drastically change its policies, and start placing more of an emphasis on justice and human rights than on wealth-accumulation and hegemony, that 1% would quickly become 0.1%, then 0.01%, and so on... until it was completely negligible.

And on a side note, over 1 million people have been killed in Rwanda over the past 10 years, yet I don't hear the same kind of hand-wringing over the perpetrators of those acts as I hear over al Qaeda. Perhaps if the victims were white, there would be more of an uproar....

[chookie]

48. Agreed, but...

Unfortunately, the 1% (universal wackos) is driving the narrative of our time.

I agree that 99% of us are sane and rational and peaceful -- but the 1% are increasingly marginalizing us. They are creating history, while we are merely witnesses.

Time for the Sane People to make noise that cannot be ignored -- correct?

As yet, no one can hear us above the noise of madness and chaos. We are fragmented....

[Capn Sunshine]

94. But It's useful fear

Imagine if they used the OKC bombing to instill this fear in us of a rampant overarching globsl conspiracy of white nazis ready to strike again , vipers in our midst.

But they didn't because when it comes to fear, brown skin sells so much better.

[Tinoire]

24. The Islamic bogeyman is a PNAC creation & exaggeration

Islamic terror is PNAC's creation. If you're that scared of Islamic terror, fight PNAC. No sense getting yourself, or anyone else for that matter, all spooked about Islamic bogeymen and ignoring the men behind the curtain.

[accipiter]

26. Are you serious?

Did Frontline (a PBS program widely respected) just make it all up? Are the prosecutors in Spain, France, and Germany they interviewed all on the PNAC payroll? Are all the European experts they interviewed all on the PNAC payroll? Are the Muslims living in Europe that they interviewed all on the PNAC payroll? Did PNAC cook up those audio tapes they played (read the other thread)? Did PNAC do the Madrid bombings?

What exactly do you mean? Maybe I'm reading to much into your comments.

[Ms. Clio]

31. The New York Times is a "respected" publication, a paper of record

Yet they publish Judith Miller's fantasies and lies.

Go figure.

[NuttyFluffers]

59. not to put words in tinoire's mouth, but the jist probably is...

all them bastards who signed PNAC are basically the same roster of criminals who've been involved in these little dramas for the past few decades. these jerks helped manufacture saddam, the mujahideen, bases on saudi, issues in lebanon, et cetera cetera cetera. all these boogeymen are old, broken toys that these bastards used, abused, and threw away. the broken toy comes to bite us back in the ass -- so the PNAC bastards use the toys one last time as a boogeyman to whip up fear and belligerant patriotism into the latest great trick, robbing america from americans.

that's pretty much what i'm getting from tinoire. but don't take my lone word on it, tinoire's quite capable in articulating exactly what he means.

ps: i know it's scary learning about islamic terrorism and how deep it goes at first. wanna know more? it goes deeper. then it gets *real* scary, because the threads track on back to our home... there's killers in the home, our home, puppeted by our supposed 'leaders' -- and many of us on DU already learned this.

[Capn Sunshine]

95. It's funny how you can make stuff fit if you have to

The FEAR you feel allows governments to spend more money than "logical" on "defense"

You don't see a connection here? You don't think that there have ALWAYS been "middle Eastern Terrorists"? There have also been WHITE terrorists , blowing up European targets and American clinics and Government structures for years. But is this woven into a fabric of doom ? No.

Why? Because it doesn't serve a purpose.

There are always nutball freak fringe groups out there , and every so often one goes off and kills people. But this is hardly a global organized shadowy network of evil. It part of the consequence of fucking people over.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

66. exactly!...PNAC is the terrorist behind the curtian

[chookie]

25. Let the End Times Roll

The documentary you cite contained much important information, but it was the American version of " Al Jazeera" --- it was not particularly balanced in that it focused only on Muslims wackos, but left out other important wacko players -- like wacko militant Zionists, wacko American militant Christian fundamentalism, and the cynical plutocrats that rule America at present.

In a SANE rational world, none of this stuff would be happening, but as it is, we are living in an Age where the Wackos have hijacked our world and our destiny. And yes -- they (the wackos) all DO want chaos and destruction and an end. It is the Wackos of the world who are forcing this end upon the rest of us.

Yes, muslim militant fanaticism is extremely dangerous, but confronting it with equal mad militant fanaticism DOES lead to serious consequences.

All the wackos of the planet are on the same page -- this is a story line that was missing from this documentary. That there are choices about how to deal with the madness that is spreading was left out.

99% of the humans on this planet don't want the end the wackos are forcing on us.

Time for sane people to rise up and call an end to it. And it is what people are demanding from their governments (and extremists) globally. We're being ignored; we are considered irrelevant in this age of madness.

Will the people of the world put an end to it? We've tried, we try. Do we all need a truly moral global leader? Absolutely. The day a truly moral sane being arises to denounce the madness of our time, the majority of people on this planet will get behind them.

Do I see this happening? (crickets chirping)

It looks as though we humans are all going to be put into the fire yet again, and suffer the consequences of madness.

It's some 60 years since the last World War -- and it seems to be a cycle of loss of memory.

As for the Caliphate -- ah yes -- it's a "threat". But to think that they will not stop fighting until they achieve it -- no matter what "concessions" are achieved, in my opinion, is not true. The Caliphate, as a goal, is pretty extreme -- just like world wide democracy friendly to America is an extreme dream. It will never get that far, in reality. What we will see is that a lot of blood and chaos will ensue, without really a whole lot being changed.

I maintain, that extremism, whatever the variety, is the true enemy of life and liberty. Bush errs by fighting madness with madness -- understandable, but not a solution. The difference between Bush and "bin Laden" is -- and I hate to say this, truly -- is the size and power of the army they command....

In a rational world, there are ways to measure progress (i.e. peace, prosperity, etc). But in a mad world -- HELL! If you think its the end of the world, NOTHING any of these wackos do surprises or shocks you, because you buy into this end times scenario, when things are supposed to be bad.

As a student of history, and one among many -- I am gravely concerned, because I see the confluence of many streams coming together simultaneously to make thing, uh, very interesting.

Cheer up, though -- if you survive, you will be in demand 50 years from now by documentary film makers who will ask you what it was like to see this rise before you and then to live through it.

[accipiter]

29. I agree with your post

It is a world gone mad. It's not just about hating Bush and his Iraq policy (which is what the left does). It's not just about hating Islamic terrorists (which is what the right does). It's about opposing all those madnesses, or at least trying too.

Maybe I'll move to Alaska. Everyone is fucked up.

[chookie]

42. Bingo

>>It's about opposing all those madnesses<<

Indeed.

Unless all sane humans rise and discredit this madness, the few extremists who have hijacked the history of our time will inflict agonizing events upon us.

(Getting off subject a bit -- but isn't it fascinating that George W Bush rejects extremism in other countries, but encourages it here, in fact, owes his power to the extremists in our own country? Ironic that he, on the face of things, wants enclusive and moderate and liberal governments in the Middle East, but supports hard line religious conservatism here in the USA? The irony is not lost on all denizans of this planet -- and will, in due course, lead to the fall of Bush.)

[Karenina]

69. A couple of snaggle-toothed, fire-breathing Mullahs

flash across the screen and call out the underwear brigade. :eyes:
Worry about the *extremists who have stolen YOUR future and look like THIS to the rest of the world:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3010393

[Lexingtonian]

27. As I said yesterday, in that thread you link...

The problem with that Frontline edition was that it didn't give a sense of scale of the human effort.

The Caliphate is a rationale- and an absurd one, which historical warrants don't bear out in any form. It's about as sensible as the Christian Nation thang that Texas Republican Christdolators and Bibliodolators keep on putting in their state party platform. The Lost Caliphate is the Arab world's Search for El Dorado, their Atlantis.

Anytime you encounter people who are serious about Death- who know it, have some skill involving it, dwell on it, even worship it- it's hard to take. Those who openly make Death the desired face of their God are almost impossible to resist cheerfully and kindly, especially if they already have blood on their hands.

Creating a life is a miracle. Consecrating a life is a wonder. Killing is only a skill- at best.

[accipiter]

33. Yeah their Caliphate is more than likely a pipe dream

I just worry about to many of the younger generation signing up if Iraq continues to head south, and Iran gets sucked into it. I'm just wondering and worrying about how bad things could get.

"Those who openly make Death the desired face of their God are almost impossible to resist cheerfully and kindly, especially if they already have blood on their hands." - that is a true statement.

[DulceDecorum]

43. What of those whose God requires blood sacrifices?

And the slaughter of scapegoats?

[Lexingtonian]

53. that's a little different

Some ritual or sanctified letting of blood does not signify killing of human beings- the blood of menstruation and the blood of childbirth, for one, symbolizes just the opposite. The blood of circumcision and the blood of tattoo cutting or scar reopenings means yet another thing- a willingness to suffer injury or death on behalf of others. American Indians had blood brotherhood, the Jewish name for circumcision is a derivative of or identical to the word we translate as Covenant.

The slaughter of animals goes back to hunter-gatherer days. The first kill of the spring season is usually given to the deity that Provided the gift as a token of gratitude. In northern Europe that meant dropping the whole corpse (usually a deer fawn) into a lake or bog. In the desert countries along the Mediterranean the offering used to be burned fully- that's why altars were constructed of rock, to be platforms for fires. You could, with some trouble, burn a semi-domesticated young ram or wild goat quite thoroughly. When cultivation of cattle came along the corpses were way too large- the ritual changed and the idea that the Deity anthropomorphically ate the flesh became dogma, and so the burning up of the corpse became unnecessary. The new rituals said that the worshippers had to eat the flesh on behalf of the Deity, who would get some left out overnight or while no one was watching. (Remember that the next time your religious relative insists on saying grace at the dinner table. Especially on a Thanksgiving, with a basted turkey on the table. And why the oldest man has to do the carving of the turkey.)

The rest of everything involving blood and rituals is pretty complex in forms but its reasoning is pretty easy to figure out. Don't forget that blood-bourn and flesh-burrowing parasites were much more common back then, too. And that a massive effusion of blood is the most visible proof that a creature is in fact killed, which is particularly important if it's a cursed sort of critter that Divine Rules say Should Be Killed.

[Lexingtonian]

50. yeah, that's the true cost

The embitterment in Iraq. I doubt Iran gets affected to a degree anywhere like it. I guess I hope that the next Administration or two gets Iraq some genuine reparations and rebuilding and partnership in the region and the world.

Just don't forget that this part of the world is pretty highly populated, perhaps overpopulated, and population pressures have a lot to do with there being a major bloodbath once or twice a generation in what is now Iraq for at least a century. They can move on in a hurry once the immediate causes are settled. Myself, I was shocked at the rate things seemed to go forward in I/P after the Oslo accords were signed. The extremists and reactionary older people on both sides had to do a lot of killing and conflict generating to force a reraising of the barriers between the two sides.

[Starlight]

36. Just like Christian & Jewish extremists...

Only a tiny minority of Muslims are extremists. In fact, if appears to me that a far larger proportion of Christians in this country are whacko extremists than the proportion of Muslims. And I'm a lot more worried about what the Christians might do to me. :tinfoilhat:

[EC]

41. I saw it too...

thought it was interesting that before Bush, most didn't have anything to do with jhad until they went to school or work in another country where they felt isolated and started going to mosque...before when they were living at home they weren't so immursed in the religion, they were too busy living their lives, like us...

Yes, it clearly showed Bush is making it worse, by showing that the Americans are warmongers and only want their resources, just as they were told by Bin Laden and in Saudi Arabia..

[chookie]

46. Bush just stirred up the hornets nest

Bush can be faulted with making things worse, but he did not create this.

I think anyone, of any country, who travels abroad for the first time, only then gets in touch with what it means to be a "person of a certain country." You really get slapped in the face with what is different about you.

Definitely a thesis topic in understanding the roots of militant Islam in the experience of alienation in the West....

We must consider residual racism, and residues of colonial rule, not to mention the vast gap between standards of living, and economic factors behind them. People who feel isolated and angry from daily life inevitably drift to simple answers, however extreme. Truly -- what drives a man to embrace jihad are the same factors that drive vulnerable young persons in our own country to want to fight their own foreign enemies.

Same old story....

[KG]

51. here, take another sip of this kool-aid.

grape is my favorite flavor, what's yours?

[ET Awful]

58. And while you're sipping that Kool-Aid, remember where the term

"Drink the Kool-Aid" came from, or at least one of its sources.

It came from an example of what a warped Christian Theocracy formed by a tiny percentage of Christians can accomplish. Ever heard of Jonestown, Guyana?

[carla]

56. Don't let them scare you

There's a great commercial on TV in Europe. Shows a small Italian village, friendly people, old woman getting water from the well as an old man leads his donkey cart full of water melons. A truck turns a corner, loud bang as the engine misfires. The donkey kicks the cart, the melons roll towards the woman. Fade to these words: "donkeys kill more people per year than airplane crashes. Think again."

I really like the 'think again.'

[sherilocks]

57. I did not see the Frontline episode

but Islamic terrorism spooks me too. Almost as frightening are some of the responses and their supporting links here in this thread.

[Solly Mack]

62. My government scares me more than anything

though I don't wallow in fear. I enjoy life too much to do that. Besides, Bush wins if I'm afraid.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Why did you have to start two threads on the same show?

And what do you propose to do about your newfound fear? Join the Crusade?

Or work to stop our country's terrorizing of Muslim people? That terror can easily drive the survivors into the arms of the extremists.

Do you actually KNOW any Muslims?

[noonwitch]

68. Too bad we can't just ship all the dominionists and islamicists to another

planet, and let them fight it out amongst themselves.

[RBHam]

70. Spooked by propaganda?

It's working!

[leesa]

71. And you believed this? They just want to be left alone. It's all they

have ever wanted. They want us, and others, to quit invading their countries, stealing their resources and murdering their families and friends.

I don't think that is too much to ask, is it?

Are you usually so easily fooled by propaganda?

[Q]

72. Sounds like a AGENT OF FEAR for Bush

It's really quite simple. They want our military bases and corporations stealing their resources OUT OF THEIR COUNTRIES.

But some would rather believe that they 'hate us for our freedoms'.

[accipiter]

88. It's not that simple

The truth of the matter is that the problem is far deeper than just Bush or Halliburton.

A lot of people on the left live in about as simplistic a world as Bush does.

[wicket]

74. I was in Boston on 9/11

It was very creepy knowing the hijackers had passed my building just a few hours before (I work near Logan).

[Bridget Burke]

79. I live in Houston & could run into a Bush at any time.

Not very likely, as we do not move in the same circles. I do attend some arty events where the Houston upper crust appear--but the Bushes don't care squat about art.

However, they're right here in the same city! Bush the Smarter, Shelob, Neilsie & his new wifie.... Chilling!

[Southpaw Bookworm]

98. Yeah well

I drove through the Appalachians in western NC, one of the places where Eric Rudolph was hiding.

[chrisbur]

102. One of the flights....

(I think the first one into the Trade Center) went right over our heads in NW Connecticut. At least that's what the map of the flight path shows.

[blm]

76. Bush is fueling this with his use of fervent Christianity. Bush & BinLaden

both wanted a Holy War and they are determined to get it.

[ernstbass]

80. I'm spooked by neocons!

[JCMach1]

83. Some points on reading this thread

Yes, living and working here gives you a very different perspective...

Here are a couple of things:

1. The anti-israeli (anti-semtism) is real. Arabs have a long-term beef with Israel. And please, I won't start pointing fingers... there is blood enough to go around thanks. However, most are smart enough to point out the current situation is largely Sharon's fault.

2. This kind of thinking goes ditto on the Iraq situation. Saddam was 'no' hero at least in this part of the Arab world. Most put the blame for the Iraq mess firmly at the feet of W. ... where it belongs.

3. I often find myself screaming when the average cab driver here knows more about world politics than the average American. This is simple fact.

4. Arabs love American culture. They are a little miffed, but it doesn't stop them from buying a Caprice or a Navigator.

5. The Arab world is changing at Warp speed. My current relative assessment of where they are at socially is appx. U.S. 1959-1961. The sixties should be an interesting time indeed over here...

[accipiter]

87. I hope you're right that there's a sixties coming over there

Someone has to stand up and both throw off the oppresive governments and renounce blatant killing.

[Ms. Clio]

89. When will that happen here, do you think?

The end of oppression and killing?

I hope all your dreadful fears have been eased by these two threads--I'd advise turning off your television, if you are so easily spooked.

[IrateCitizen]

90. Renounce blatant killing? ROTFLMAO!

Since when have we ever moved beyond "blatant killing"? The so-called "civilized" nations of the world have blatantly killed many times over more people than have been blatantly killed by the Muslim nations of the Middle East.

I think you'd better peruse your history a little closer. There has been no culture more adept at slaughter and oppression than the Western European ones. While we've all certainly become more "refined", we haven't exactly abandoned blatant killing at the same time.

[accipiter]

91. There are plenty of people in the West who openly opposed the Iraq war

There are varying degrees of anti-war sentiments in the American populace. Most only want to fight a war when necessary. Some are against all wars.

I'd like to see organized opposition to Bin Laden's methods in the Middle East. Bin Laden plays to their hatred of their own governments. But then he also sanctions flying airplanes into buildings. I'd like to see a figure that does the first but not the second.

What about an Arab Ghandi? Or an Arab MLK?

[IrateCitizen]

92. You really have a very loose grasp on current realities, don't you?

Do you honestly think that Western nations, the US in particular, have truly changed their ways? Hardly. Western civilization has just modified them.

It used to be outright conquest and extermination, as in how the Europeans overwhelmed Native Americans or Native South Africans and took their land. They'd enslave all they could, working them to death, imposing harsh punishments (like cutting off a hand or foot) for any acts of rebellion.

Then, it moved up to colonization through occupation and the buying off of the native upper class, as the British did in India and the French in Indochina. Of course, even this kind of arrangement soon drew resistance that could overcome it, so methods had to be changed again.

So, the strategy switched to one of neocolonialism. Mountains of debt were coupled with harsh "structural adjustments" on "developing" countries (read: former colonies of European powers) in order to force their fragile economies to open up to Northern exploitation. Those who dissented would be subject to either consignment as a global pariah, or military "intervention" to maintain "order".

In all these cases, people have been killed for the benefit of those in richer nations, like you and I. We may not have seen people starving for lack of food because Monsanto took over their food supply, or dying of dysentery due to water privatization that benefitted Bechtel -- but they suffered and died nonetheless. And many of their disaffected countrymen see exactly where to place the blame for this continual injustice -- at the feet of the Western Powers (i.e. the US, today), and the pliant puppet regimes in their own countries.

You do realize, of course, that the views of Bin Laden and his ilk represent less than 1% of the Muslim population in the Middle East, right? But American injustices are the common thread that unite them together. Al Qaeda is not some global conspiracy, as you envision, but prior to 9/11 was a disintegrating fringe movement. It's still a world in which the industrialized "north" -- particularly the United States -- still holds the real power. Therefore, if there is to be a real shift, it has to start with a sea change in OUR policy toward THEM. When that happens, you'll see support for Bin Laden and his ilk dry up like a mirage in the desert.

Wishing for an Arab Gandhi or MLK is a complete waste of time, because that's not where the solution to the problem lies.

[rman]

96. the threat is being exadurated, see BBC docu "The Power of Nightmares"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7dhyg/documentaries_2.html
(download)

[KissMeKate]

97. oh lord.

pure fearmongering.

[bpilgrim]

101. The ONLY thing to FEAR

are the TERRORIST in the WH.

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[RBHam]

104. Speaking of plots to take over the world...

The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion...

"The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time. They fit it now." --Henry Ford, 2-17-21, whose newspaper, the Dearborn Independent, cited the Protocols as evidence of an alleged Jewish threat until at least 1927

"To what extent the whole existence of this people is based on a continuous lie is shown incomparably by the Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion...." --Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf


http://skepdic.com/protocols.html