Is this a woman?

[Thtwudbeme]

(mods, please leave this in GD--I am really curious to see "regular people's" responses, and not just those interested in religion. Thank you-Stephanie)

Is that a woman on the right of Jesus? On edit; Jesus' right, not yours! Your left! Who's on first?

[On the Road]

1. I Think That Would be

the disciple that Jesus loved. Usually identified as John.

[EstimatedProphet]

2. Certainly looks that way

[paineinthearse]

3. Mary Magdeline? n/t

[elehhhhna]

5. probably.

[jdj]

55. the shirt looks like it has embroiderly below the collar, whereas

the other collars ar plain.

Very interesting she or he is in purple, sacred color of the middle-eastern pre-christian goddess figures.

Hmmm.

If it's John, maybe he was gender ambigious. I'm sure if give the choice Christians would prefer it be a woman.

[Aristus]

4. John , the Beloved Disciple.

Yeah, he always looked kinda girly. You'd think a "Son of Thunder" would be portrayed in a more masculine manner. :eyes:

[shrike]

34. Son of Thunder?

Never heard that term.

[Aristus]

39. John and James, the sons of Zebedee, were often referred to

as "The Sons of Thunder" because of their hot-headed zeal for Jesus and His mission. They had an extraordinarily ambitious mother who kept pressing them to claim favors from Jesus, like the right to sit, one at his left hand and the other at his right when He came into His Kingdom. This tended to irritate the other Apostles for some reason.

[shrike]

59. Learn something new everyday on DU

Never heard that in catechism. Well, James was the first disciple to die for the cause.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

37. John is typically portrayed beardless, and since Leo was gay...

...he enjoyed painting pretty, tender youths. So sayeth the art history I studied. :)

[msanthrope]

6. So, you read it, too?

Yes, it is a woman--and note how much she looks like Jesus.

[Thtwudbeme]

10. No, I didn't read The Book!

:)

I am a Religion major, studying the Gnostics right now.

The people who wrote my textbooks were responsible for the information used in The DaVinci Code.

[King Coal]

61. Have you heard of the Gospel of Thomas?

[lazarus]

7. could be

any of them without beards could appear to be women, that's just the way he painted.

[eallen]

8. No, silly. It's a painting.

I've never understood how people get so worked up over conspiracy theories and crypto-history. Why is it so many cannot discard one mythology, except to replace it with another?

[henrik larssonisking]

48. yup its a painting

therefore its an artists interpretation, if it was a photo then we could read more into it, though with photoshop etc even that would be suspect.

[leftofthedial]

9. undoubtedly

yes

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Clearly, arguing over the bill

"Hey, who ordered the lobster salad??"

[stanwyck]

24. Father Garducci?

(sp?) Is that you?

[RedSock]

38. or

"He didn't order a coke. Ha!!" </morty seinfeld>

(from "the pen" episode)

[Hugin]

12. An additional question...

I'm being totally serious now...

All you scholars of the good book out there.

Is there humor anywhere in the bible?

I know there's lots of begetting, begotting, and knowing.

There's tons of sarcasm... Especially against secular
authoritarian figures.

But, is there any genuine humor?

Is it as dry as day old toast?

No offense anyone, I'm curious.

[Thtwudbeme]

14. The OT is full of practical jokes

Go put a fig leaf on your genitals and tell me how you feel in about...oh, say 5 minutes.

(Get some cortisone cream first, please!)

[Hugin]

22. Whoooowheeee...

Yeah, I've noticed tendencies in the OT...

=)

[Gruenemann]

20. humor may not come across in translation

All I can recall is a play on words, "I will make you fishers of men." Whether that's humor or not, or what the original said, I can't say. If it's true that Shakespeare worked on King James' translation, I would certainly expect there to be humor.

There's a book title I recall--"The Humor of Christ" or some such. I think the author's name is Elton Trueblood. But I'm reaching back over thirty years for this.

[Hugin]

29. Thanks Gruenemann!

I'll check it out. =)

Yes, alas, humor is often lost on the cutting room floor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I once heard a sermon in which the priest pointed out

that some of the conversations that Jesus had, if read in the proper tone, could be seen as witty, and probably were in the original Aramaic.

[Hugin]

51. That's very likely true...

I imagine our modern lives are so different from those
of two thousand years ago. What was high humor to them is
as alien to us as an escalator would be to them. (Umm...
How do you get a camel on one of those things?)

Really, I can see where the story of David and Goliath
could be funny or amazing to an oppressed people.

I wonder sometimes why humor doesn't seem to be transported
through the ages like war or hate?

[gtp1976]

56. Lost in Translation or...

...possibly ended up on the cutting room floor throughout history. Think about it. If Jesus existed, there is no way he could have gotten people to follow him if he was an asshole. He was likely a very witty and charismatic man. Probably good looking as well. He was definitely convincing and a threat to those that were against him, hence the crucifixion.

[Hugin]

58. Superb point gtb! n/t

[mirandaod]

13. Looks feminine.

Let me guess - you just read the DaVinci Code?

[Thtwudbeme]

15. Nope, and I already responded to that question

nt

[truebrit71]

16. Yes. Absolutely.

BTW, where's Mel Brooks?

[unpossibles]

17. yes

it is his wife and most beloved disciple the Magdalene. John, along with Paul, was a RW spin artist.

[Petrushka]

18. Without a head-covering? Nope! (eom)

[Hugin]

19. What you should do is compare...

This one, which is Da Vinci's, with some of the other "Last
Suppers" out there.

There are several and unfortunately, I don't have time to look them up
for you today.

But, in those others, the person next to J.C. is clearly a man. (Usually, equiped with a beard.) Also, they typically portray "The
Holy Grail" as an actual goblet on the center of the table.

Check it out... It's worth your time. ;)

(Edit: Changed Di to Da... Duh!)

[Thtwudbeme]

21. Well, I've spent 3 years on it so far

and am putting in another four at the least....so, yeah...I think it is :)

[SmokingJacket]

23. Since everyone is wearing a dress and has long hair and delicate

features, there's no way to tell. Except for the bearded ones.

Anyway, why?

[MadHound]

25. Yes, I believe that it is

She actually looks much like the other women that Da Vinci painted, delicate, rounded chin, button nose, high cheek bones.

The official story is that this is John the Baptist, however I find that to be a bit of a stretch. Compare this John to Da Vinci's latter work, St. John the Baptist, and there are striking differences. In the latter piece, John is portrayed as having dark brown, almost black hair, while here the figure is coiffed with dirty blonde hair. In the latter work, John is portrayed with a much stronger chin and a larger nose, yet this figure has a more delicate, rounded chin and a button nose. All in all, the latter John, while depicted as beautiful man, he is most definetively a male. The figure in The Last Supper, while claiming to be male, is most certainly depicted as a female. There is even some suggestive shadowing where her right breast is painted.

I believe that Da Vinci was trying to get a message across with this painting. The question is what was that message? Was it an allussion to a holy bloodline, or just a very sophisticated joke poking fun at the Church. We may never know, but with the recent unearthing of one of Da Vinci's workshops, we might find more clues.

[jdots]

26. It is a painting

sometimes you get off and just start painting when you work for someone else.What has made this painting last is the perspectives that were being figured out at the time. crappy answer but it is a painting before photo ops.

[progressoid]

27. The one 4th from the right is my aunt Mildred

[Roxy66]

28. LOL!!

[Ian David]

30. About the religious paintings

Many of the religious paintings of the time were influenced by who was paying the artist.

The person commissioning the piece would often tell the artist who each figure should look like. For example, "Make Jesus look like me, and make Judas look like that bastard mayor from the next town over."

[Hugin]

32. And could ya put some horns on 'em? Thanks. ;) n/t

[Ian David]

44. Interesting thing about the horns....

The story of Jews and horns:
Why do we often see Moses shown with horns on his head?
http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr893.htm

Q: Why do some sculptures (or paintings) of Moses show horns on his head?

A: In Exodus 34, verse 29, Moses comes down from the mountain after getting the second set of tablets of the 10 Commandments. (The first set was broken when he saw the people worshipping the Golden Calf.) The text says that Moses didn't know that his face was radiant because Moses had spoken to God. In Hebrew, the word for "radiant" is karan. This is closely related to the Hebrew word for "horn" - keren. In Akkadian prayers, these words are also closely related. When the Hebrew Bible was translated into Latin, the translation was that Moses' face "was horned". It was this mistranslation that led artists, most notably Michaelangelo, to portray Moses as horned. These visual representations of Moses with horns, as well as the Latin translation, is where non-Jews got the idea that all Jews have horns.

See also:
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/sgp0183m.htm

http://www.beingjewish.org/jewishemail/article042402.html


Copyright (c) 1997 by Rabbi Jo David. All Rights Reserved.

[Hugin]

49. Yes, strangely enough...

I was aware of that fact.

I've also read where the "radiant" term is used to discribe...

Adam
Eve
Abel

These last two have a fascinating story related to their appearance
because not only are they described as "karan", but, also in
some places with "keren".

Cain (Sometimes attributed as Lucifer)
Lilith

There are also groups who believe Judas was God or an agent
sent by God to assure the drama of Christ played out in the
manner intended. (Darn free will, anyway ;) )

I don't speak Hebrew so I must rely on admittedly telephoned
translations.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm always glad to read in depth.

Thanks also for the links... They were wonderful. =)

[flygal]

43. HA!!

[cags]

31. A few of them look like women

[Cleita]

42. I thought so too, in spite of the beards.

eom

[TreasonousBastard]

33. No...

although you would have to ask Da Vinci to be sure. He missed a couple of other things, like the Grail, in that one, so who knows what was on his mind.

There are twelve people besides Jesus at that table, and Judas was there, so there's no Magdalene, or Mary, or anyone else besides the Apostles hanging out with him.

[shugah]

62. actually, i saw a program about this recently

the premise was that the person in da vincis painting is actually mary magdelene and that she is the holy grail. she is the vessel that carried the blood of jesus, specifically she was pregnant by jesus.

[shadowknows69]

35. Where's Rufus?

Rufus: I was stoned to death

Beverly: You were martyred?

Rufus: That's one way to say it. Another way would be to say I was blugeoned to shit by big fuckin rocks.


Dogma: Learn it, love it, live it.

[radwriter0555]

36. clearly a female.

No question.

Unless you're in a cult and only believe what some drunken guys wrote about 2000 years ago in order to prop up their paternal/fraternal female-ostracizing beliefs.

:)

[disillusioned1]

41. In a local cemetary here.....

there's a 15' tall marble statue of John, along with Mark, Luke and Matthew. My mother in law is buried near them.

I thought John was a woman until I read the name plate at the base of the statue. His face is very feminine and I could swear those were breasts beneath his gown.

[Ironpost]

45. I see two, possibly three Lady's

[Dorian Gray]

46. The way I see it...

I would guess that Da Vinci painted it as a woman. It is well enough known that he was a Gnostic, and he had some troubled feelings towards the RCC.

He may have believed that she was present at the Last Supper, or he may have done this as a "secret message" to get at the RCC.

What humors me, however, is that many people talk about this painting as though it's biblical proof of who was at The Last Supper. Actually, it's a representation painted by Da Vinci 1000+ years after the Last Supper. That's all.

[Montanan]

47. That's the waitress.

[ArkDem]

54. Good one

[ArkDem]

50. It's rumored that Leonardo didn't have the actual participants

in the 'last supper' pose for the painting.

[shadowknows69]

52. no way.

I thought they all came back for it

[DistantWind88]

53. If it were a picture, it might mean something

But since it's a painting, the person looks like whatever LDV wanted it to look like.

[King Coal]

57. It's a hint of some kind.

:smoke:

[American Tragedy]

60. Leonardo's preliminary sketches label the figure as St. John

who was depicted by both Leonardo and Michelangelo as looking rather feminine, since he was supposed to be young.

I suppose it could all be a grand conspiracy.

[Hugin]

63. Michelangelo was also suspected of being in the know... So to speak. n/t