"Just don't get sick!" Overheard in a doctor's office this morning.

[Bouncy Ball]

When I came in, a man was up at the receptionist's desk, asking about his health insurance. Apparently a lot of nasty new changes had been made to insurance, including the fact that doctor's visits are now no longer covered under co-pay, but through the DEDUCTIBLE. Which means he has to pay FULL PRICE for doctor's visits until he hits his $3000 deductible each year.

He asked her "How am I supposed to afford that? And why didn't I know about this before?"

She said his employer should have notified him of this change (and she's right, they should have) and about the affording it part? She smiled and chirped "Just don't get sick!"

He wrote out a check, which I heard her say was $189. As he was writing it, he said "I can't even afford this." When he turned around to leave, he had tears in his eyes.

My God, what have we come to? The guy obviously has a JOB, he HAS health insurance, but he can't afford to go to the doctor anymore.

Who can afford random $189 fees whenever you are sick? And what if he has a wife and kids? How does he handle that now?

I was sick to my stomach. I wanted to hug him. I know the feeling, too, as that happened to my husband's health insurance recently. My daughter is covered on it and so whenever she has to go to the doctor, I can count on a huge fee. No $25 copay anymore.

We just try to keep her healthy.

[Oreo]

1. Maybe he was a republican

All of that is clearly laid out each year you sign up for insurance. If he didn't read it, it's his fault that it was a surprise.

At least he has insurance... how many others don't even think about going to the doctor when they're sick. How far would preventative healthcare go in taking care of problems before they become critical?

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Well

who pissed in your Post Toasties?

He may have been a repuke, but if anyone can show him the connection between having repukes in charge and this kind of shit, he'd be a Democrat overnight.

[Oreo]

I don't mean to sound harsh

but this is stuff people should know about their healthcare plan.

It's terrible that this happens to anybody. I'm sure the guy pays a good chunk of his salary each month for a worthless healthcare plan.

Healthcare sucks in the US. Since the sheep aren't told by their masters, the only way they'll find out is firsthand.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. Yeah

I guess. Though I have heard of instances, especially with smaller companies, where the employees aren't told of changes and aren't given any literature about it.

They just assume they'll find out next time they go to the doctor, which is totally shitty. He probably needed that money for groceries or gas or something frivolous like that.

[Oreo]

20. My wife works in HR

so I hear about this stuff all the time. It's absolutely illegal to change healthcare without notifying the people that are subscribing to it.

[el_gato]

25. Yeah, I guess he deserves a kick in the balls too?

:eyes:

[Oreo]

33. As long as

the kick isn't too hard! He wouldn't be able to pay for the treatment to fix them.

Seriously... I feel bad for the guy... I really do. I feel worse for people that don't have any healthcare at all.

[Chomskyite]

136. Oh?

And God knows companies always comply with the law.

[AP]

99. If he knew about it, it wouldn't make a difference. He'd still have to pay

and he still wouldn't be able to afford it.

[AP]

98. He'd still be a human being and his suffering wouldnt' benefit anyone...

...except the insurance company.

[shesemsmom]

2. I really get pissed at the fact that we can not longer cover each other

if we have insurance available though our own employers that really stinks That is something new theyve come up with recently. Before long we wont be anle to afford it anyway. The nurse is right, just dont get sick

[tridim]

8. Yep, it's actually wise advice in the new Amerika

I should have gone to the doc during my last bad cold, but I didn't because I can only afford catastrophic insurance.

[shesemsmom]

17. My last bad cold I didn't go to the doctor either

I worked and felt like crap. Them I got up one morning with a stiff neck, I went to work and one of the doctors gave me a muscle relaxer that wouldn't make me sleepy, after a couple of more days with it I realized I had a knot in my throat and had had trouble swallowing and finally got an antibiotic. I was better in a week after that. All could have been avoided if I had gone to the Doc to start with. But who can afford it

[MissB]

3. But our system is so much better than Canada's!

/sarcasm off

It is only going to get worse.

[iverglas]

23. just a note about Canada's

When people make quickie comparisons between what Canadians pay for health care (in taxes and, in some provinces, more or less nominal sliding-scale premiums) and what USAmericans pay (in insurance premiums), the co-pays and deductibles often aren't mentioned.

Canadian public healthcare plans allow for NO co-pays and NO deductibles. "Medically necessary" services are covered, and that means they're covered 100% -- and whether the services are provided by a doctor in private practice, at any hospital, at a walk-in clinic, at a community health or public health clinic, by a physiotherapist or other approved professional, etc.

You go to the doctor (of your choice), the doctor treats you, the doctor bills the health plan, the doctor gets paid the fee established by the plan (to some extent in negotiations with the medical associations). Period. (In most provinces, if you don't have supplementary private insurance and aren't over 65 or on a subsidy for low income, you pay for any prescription.)

And hospitals don't get to charge patients for Kleenex ...

[MsTryska]

31. So question?

How much do Doctors wind up making in Canada?

[iverglas]

53. don't really know

How much do Doctors wind up making in Canada?

... and I have to admit I don't particularly care. ;)

Their provincial medical associations negotiate with the provincial governments from time to time, and once in a while we even get withdrawals of service by members of the medical associations (most but not all doctors belong to the associations, which are of course private interest groups). The provinces negotiate on the basis of the money available from the taxes (and in some provinces premiums) they collect.

Here's my provincial health plan: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/ohip/ohip_mn.html

Here are the schedules of fees:
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/sob_mn.html
The fees payable to physicians for all insured services are in a pdf doc linked from that page:
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/physserv_mn.html

And there are quirks, like caps on the amounts that individual physicians may bill the plan.


I'm not finding much on a google ... here's something about Newfoundland:
http://www.nlhba.nf.ca/PR_Physician%20Incomes.htm

Currently, a Physician who wishes to work in Newfoundland has the option of two distinct forms of payment - Salary and Fee for Service.

The payments for both types of income are negotiated provincially, but vary depending on the region of practice. Historically, salaried physician were associated with the more rural areas of the province. However, over the past few years, salaried arrangements have been increasingly common in more urban areas, and in clinics which traditionally have been thought of as Fee-for-Service sites.

As of October 1, 2002 the base salary for General Practice is $108,000 to $129,600 based on a 5-step which recognizes previous work experience.

In addition, Retention Bonuses are paid after 12, 24, and 36 months of eligible service <ranging from $2,500 to $30,000> to salaried General Practitioners.

The average Fee-for-Service GP income was $179,000 for the fiscal year 2000-2001. ... The vast majority of General Practitioner's income fit into the $100,000 - $300,000 pay range, with 56.1% making between $100,000 and $200,000 and 29.3% making between $200,000 and $300,000.

Newfoundland is down in the bottom reaches on a list of provinces/territories by wealth/income.

(As far as currency conversion and all that, you can take the figures more or less as they'd look in the US, I think.)

I've glanced at a few things on the Ontario Medical Association's site (Ontario being at the other end of the scale from Newfoundland) --
http://www.oma.org/
but in all their stuff about their current negotiations with the provincial government, I'm not finding anything about average incomes or the like.

I do note -- http://www.oma.org/pcomm/pressrel/pr041106.htm -- that not all physicians in the province are happy with the OMA. The Coalition of Family Physicians says:

http://www.cofp.com/

Dr. Goodwin made a number of specific recommendations during the Coalition's presentation to the OMA's Negotiating Team. Chief among them was the development of a statutory framework for the representation of doctors, which would include the introduction of a piece of legislation entitled “The Doctors Bargaining Act”.

Dr. Goodwin also talked about the importance of having predictability within the provincial health-care system, as well as ensuring that whatever the two sides agree to be enforceable by arbitration. While the Coalition remains hesitant to make any specific suggestions regarding economic issues before a statutory framework is in place, Dr. Goodwin did say that they support the principle of equal pay for work of equal value and a cost of living allowance (COLA) provision for all doctors. The Coalition also made it clear to the OMA's Negotiating Team that they believe Ontario doctors should be the best paid in all of Canada by the end of the next contract. Last but not least, Dr. Goodwin said that this agreement must include binding arbitration to resolve any bargaining impasse.

“We can't allow anyone – doctors or the government – to hold our patients hostage,” said Dr. Goodwin. “Putting doctors in the position where they have no option but to go on strike or leave the province is not only unfair, it's downright irresponsible. The doctors of Ontario believe in putting our patients first. We hope the McGuinty Government feels the same.”

I guess I haven't been particularly helpful in answering your question, but I tried!

[MsTryska]

71. Actually you've been quite helpful!

Thank you for going to the trouble.


Just quickly perusing, and doing a dollar for dollar comparison - so it's not like Doctors are all forced to be errrm "middle class" or anything because of socialized medicine.


i'm not sure how cost of living affects the salary itself, but if y'all are paying less taxes per capita then we are, as opposed to "much more" as we get told here.


granted it's not the half mil per year plastic surgeons and anasthesoilogists bring in here, but it doesn't appear to be a bad salary range.

as for the pay schedules, they seem about on par iwht what insurance pays out in adjusted sums for the same services here.

[prodigal_green]

81. I would guess that the government covers their education too

so they're not paying exhorbitant student loans out of that salary. I'm sure malpractice is handled differently too.

[iverglas]

95. sadly, no

Tuition fees have risen hugely in Canada in recent years, and many people depend on student loans for medical school. Education as well as health care has suffered from right-wing cuts in recent years.

In the googling I was doing, I ran across a figure; let's see whether I can find something ...

Here's what the Canadian Medical Association Journal had to say in 2003:

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/5/457

Canada's medical students are taking a crash course in financial management because many are graduating with debts that look more like mortgages than student loans.

... Martin, who began a residency in family medicine this summer, graduated from the University of Western Ontario this spring with her MD and a bill for $110,000. She is paying the $400 monthly interest via a personal line of credit. "I am borrowing to make my interest payments," she says.

... "I married a fellow resident 3 weeks ago — she is starting her second year in psychiatry and I had my first day in otolaryngology today," says Dr. Benjamin Hoyt, a Dalhousie University graduate. "Between the 2 of us we have $212,000 in debt, and our monthly interest payments are more than $900."

"I got my tuition bill on Friday," adds Andrea Page, a member of the class of 2006 at Western. "It's for $15,339.62, with $10,880 due by Aug. 20. The maximum available through OSAP (the Ontario Student Assistance Program) is $10,700."

... Fees for the 5 Ontario schools now range from $13,500 at Queen's University to the country's high of $16,207 at the University of Toronto. Tuition fees at both Dalhousie ($10,460) and the University of British Columbia ($10,272) entered 5-digit territory this year, and the universities of Calgary ($9932) and Saskatchewan ($9774) will probably get there next year.

Not quite what they'd be at many US schools, but enough to create significant debt.

[iverglas]

93. welcome! -- and aha

Specialists in Toronto do, of course, make quite a whole lot more than GPs in Joe Batt's Arm, Nfld, make.

I found the CMA's 1998 survey.

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-159/issue-5/PRQ/index.htm

... but aha, interestingly, doctors were asked about earnings *changes*, but not about *earnings*. Oh well.

Here's one that does show some numbers -- for *gross* incomes only -- Tables V, VI and VII near the bottom:
http://www.oma.org/pcomm/OMR/jan/03gppaper.htm

Gross incomes aren't particularly helpful, since office and staff expenses are paid out of them. But you do have to keep in mind that "administrative" expenses for doctors in private practice are hugely lower for Cdn doctors, since there is only one insurer to deal with -- only one set of forms, one fee schedule, etc. And the other important point is that doctors do not spend time discussing treatment with third parties: doctors need no prior approval to provide services listed on the schedule, which they provide as necessary in their own professional judgment, not as decided by an insurer.

If you want to go into the income issue in depth, try googling around for things like "Canadian medical association" physicians income, or the like.

On a search for canada physicians income, I get this source:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Qn5Sd23IzYEJ:www.cahspr.ca/conference/proceedings/Slade_pres.pdf+physicians+income+canada&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
http://www.cahspr.ca/conference/proceedings/Slade_pres.pdf
"Physician Payment and Income Data Sources in Canada"

which mentions the Canadian Institute for Health Information:
http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=home_e

which leads me to this:
http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=statistics_results_topic_physicians_e&cw_topic=Health%20Human%20Resources&cw_subtopic=Physicians
"Health Human Resources - Physicians
CIHI provides a range of free, aggregate-level data on <?>
More comprehensive data may be available in published reports."

and this:
http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=AR_82_E
"Average payment per physician"
The pdf document there might be just what you'd want if you wanted very specific information.

From page 25, the average fee-for-service payment was:

family medicine: $202,703
medical specialties: $260,194

Again - those are gross. But I should also note that doctors do get fees from sources other than the provincial health plans. The plans don't cover medical reports, e.g. to insurers in relation to injuries in car crashes, in relation to disability insurance claims, etc. Specialists, in particular, could be expected to earn substantial amounts for those services.

[MsTryska]

97. Excellent!

so now as a canadian - what is the perception of a 200K+ salary?


here that would be upper middle class, and i would presume comfortable.


i know when my dad was practicing, his high point salary wise, i think was 400K, but then subtract a good chunk for malpractice insurance, and salary for staff, and leases on equipment and i think it prolly came in around the 200-ish range here.



(we used to also have dinnertable debates about socialized medicine and it's effects from all sides - i think his main concern was the "socialized salary" - this was before HMOS took over the world too.)

[iverglas]

107. the Prime Minister's salary

is somewhere not too far off $200,000, I think. Of course, the current PM is a multi-millionaire shipping magnate ...

$200,000 is considerably more than "upper middle class / comfortable", although in Vancouver it might not qualify as "rich".


Income distribution is a factor that has to be considered here. Income is distributed far more evenly in Canada than in the US:

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/000728/d000728a.htm
(year 2000)

Income distribution patterns in Canada and the United States have diverged during the past 10 years despite free trade and increased economic integration between the two nations, according to a new study.

Average real incomes are higher and have been growing considerably faster in the United States. At the same time, Canada has not seen the substantial increase in income inequality that has occurred in the United States.

Inequality (the gap between rich and poor) and polarization (decline in the middle class) of family disposable incomes in Canada has remained roughly stable since the mid 1970s, while it has increased in the United States, more so since the mid 1980s.

The income gap between Canadian and American families has widened at the top of the income spectrum. At the bottom of the income spectrum, Canadian families are better off in terms of purchasing power than are their American counterparts.

GINI index values -- the index is a measure of income equality -- put Canada slightly above most western European countries (except the UK), i.e. with less-equal distribution of income, but well below the US, which has the most unequal income distribution in the entire "western"/industrialized etc. world.

So for a group like physicians, which can be assumed to be, on average, in the quite high earning group, we would expect to see lower incomes in Canada than in the US simply because of the flattened nature of the distribution -- less income concentrated in the top quintile, e.g., more income distributed through the lower four.

In 1997, disposable incomes for American families in the top one-fifth of the income distribution averaged $61,400 compared with $50,800 for Canadian families.

... The differences in earnings between the two countries was largest for workers at the top of the earnings distribution. The difference at the median - the middle point at which half the population has higher earnings and half lower - was smaller (13.6%). The median earnings of American workers were $27,500 in 1997, compared with $24,200 in Canada.

(we used to also have dinnertable debates about socialized medicine and it's effects from all sides - i think his main concern was the "socialized salary" - this was before HMOS took over the world too.)

Of course, doctors on Canada practice on a fee-for-service basis; there is no "socialized salary" (except for those doctors, like in Nfld and at my community health clinic, who choose to work on salary -- although there is talk of changing the entire practice/payment system in Ontario, for example).

And yes, if the doctor is to have no control over the fee, many would prefer dealing with a single public payer -- with whom they negotiate publicly -- than with a slew of private payers with whom they have no bargaining power.

[Megahurtz]

111. I know that the nurses make good money in Canada

although I don't know exactly how much. Comparible to here.

[AllegroRondo]

57. And Canadians pay less in taxes (on average) than US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_bud_rev_cap&int=-1

27. United States $6702.42 per person

38. Canada $5545.35 per person

[napi21]

73. They also don't have a "Big military"!

If I thought I'd be accepted, I'd move to Canada in a heartbeat! I hate being part of the country that wants to rule the world!

[TrogL]

112. there are some small charges

Mostly for casts and crutches but they're minimal ie $10.00

[CottonBear]

5. My insurance didn't cover $185 for injectable antibiotics

which were given to me to avoid a $15,000 hospital stay which, ironically, would have been covered by the insurance. WTF? I'm lucky that my doctor is a progressive Democrat who actively campaigns for health care reform. They're letting me pay on time. I am so glad to have not gone to the hospital which could have driven up my group rates.

[mhr]

6. Unemployed 57 Months - No Health Care Insurance Here

I practice what the receptionist preached - "don't get sick."

If I become seriously ill, I die. It's as simple as that!

[Bouncy Ball]

10. That sucks, though.

That really, really sucks.

What if you don't become seriously ill, but develop a fairly serious health problem that doesn't kill you, but causes great pain and hardship? What do you do then?

Compassionate conservatives, my ASS. If we were a truly compassionate society, we wouldn't let each other just flap out in the breeze or die in the gutter.

[Pastiche423]

72. I can answer your question

I am disabled (paralyzed), have Epilepsy and Lupus. I live in pain every day of my life. The only insurance I have is Medicare. In my town, NO doctors will accept new Medicare patients. (What few doctors that haven't left the area, that is.)

What do I do? I live w/it, curse the fucking lawmakers for not doing what we elected them to do and hope I will be relieved of my misery soon.

[Bouncy Ball]

146. God. I'm so damn sorry.

That sounds horrible. No one EVER better tell me what a "WONDERFUL" country this is when we have people living like you do and no choice about it. That is just awful.

:hug:

[unblock]

7. $3000 deductible? holy crap!

my out-of-pocket maximum is lower than that!

but then, i've got great insurance, and mrs. unblock's employer pays 95% of the premiums. we pay only $30/month for the two of us.

[Technowitch]

11. You're very lucky

Try being a self-employed consultant. Yes, my spouse and I make a very good living.

And we pay close to $700/month for crappy insurance, because it's all we can get.

[Dorian Gray]

41. Me too...

Self-employed. My insurance (for just ME) is 750$ a month. It's ridiculous. I have a good plan, at least.

[Technowitch]

9. 'The greatest country in the world'

That's what I was told over and over, and still see spouted by knee-jerk patriots. That America is the greatest country that is and ever was.

To which I have always trotted out this one little gem: Then how come we don't guarantee basic health care to every single one of our citizens?

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Thank you, I've said the same thing.

I've also always heard we are the richest nation in the world. Why can't the richest nation in the world help its own citizens, when other, less wealthy countries can and do all the time?

[drdtroit]

24. Because we are a nation of individuals whereas

those "less wealthy countries" obviously posses a greater sense of community and compassion.
As the fat cats say "I got mine!".

[Oreo]

19. The only ones adversely affected or the non-rich

So it's not on our "Leaders" radar as being that important.

I'm sure if basic healthcare was given to everybody the cost would probably come out even due to the fact that less people would be treated for terminal illnesses if they could afford to get checked out earlier.

The problem with that is less money will go to the big companies so it's not going to happen.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. Because we're all suppose to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps,

doncha know? :eyes: Why should MePublicans have to pay for some lazy librul's sick kid, anyway? :eyes: This is an extremely selfish and greedy Country, greatest? I think not!

[ScaRBama]

87. Great words!

I've never understood it myself.

[Triana]

13. My "INSURANCE"

doesn't even cover regular check-ups or lab work. Just to go in and get a checkup every 2 years, the bloodwork, etc. - NOT covered.

WTF?

It doesn't cover a damn thing. The only reason I stay on it is in case I get in a accident or seriously ill and then I doubt it would be very useful but it's all I've got and all I can afford.

[Bouncy Ball]

16. Wow.

That totally stinks.

[flamin lib]

15. I know about tears . . .

I live in an affluent part of town. Coming home from work I drove past a well dressed man--slacks, oxford shirt and tie--standing beside his late model auto holding a sign that read: I need a job, please.

A jobless recovery is not a recovery.

Health care you can't afford is not health care.

Democracy at the end of a gun is not democracy.

[Bouncy Ball]

22. Fan-fucking-tastic post.

Dead on.

Health care you can't afford is NOT health care. The Democrats need to freaking USE that line over and over and over again. It's the truth.

The first time I had to pay full price for a dr. visit for my daughter, I choked back tears, too, because it was more than I expected and I wasn't sure I had that money. It was three weeks until payday, too.

I borrowed some from my husband (we keep separate money). But if I hadn't been able to do that, I would have bounced a check. And there were still groceries to buy.

The worst part of it is, we don't even make bad money. But between our homeowner's insurance going up, property taxes going up (and nothing to show for it in the schools!), car insurance going sky high (through no fault of our own--Texas sucks), health care costs WAY up, gas up, food prices up, basically everything, our paychecks don't cover as much as they used to.

[PA Democrat]

63. Great talking points flamin lib

and welcome to DU!

[jus_the_facts]

18. sigh....my own dad who's got leukemia....has to get $4K shots.....

...he told me after the last time he had to get this expensive shot that he told the receptionist...."wow..I guess people w/o insurance just DIE!" Still amazes me that issues like this hit him in the face with it's obvious unfairness...yet he STILL votes repuke....when his own daughter *me* would be one of those that "just DIES* since I not only don't have insurance...but now am unemployed again too. x(

[eyepaddle]

30. I went six years without insurance,

and I have a number of chronic non-lethal (usually) conditions, such as asthma, poor eyesight, etc. I had a decent job, but alas with zero beneifts, all I got was the paycheck. My asthma meds were running about $160 a month (so I did the ol' take half the dose trick) but those were some BIG checks I had to write. All the workers at the pharmacy just looked shocked when they saw how much my bill was and did double takes looking to find the information on my "insurance."

After about three years of this I just told one horrified looking pharmacist "hey I'm one of those 44 million, most of us just go without." I said it mildly, and it wasn't directed at her--but I could see her reaction from somebody putting human face on that "44,000,000."

[jus_the_facts]

43. haven't had insurance since I turned 18 and dropped off my parents...

....that was 20 years ago this year in fact...good thing I've been relatively healthy...and I refuse to use the charity hospital in my state as they've almost killed several people I know from wrong diagnosis.

I definitely feel your pain though...the shame involved in even tryin' to get a doctor to see you these days when you're uninsured is more than I can take...so I've concluded to not even THINK about needin' any sort of healthcare...so far so good...'cuz there's :nopity: for anyone without any money. x(

[ohioliberal]

21. Our health care system in this country SUCKS!

I too feel sorry for that man. Me, I suffer from cronic migranes am at the doctors every two months, plus on 3 meds every month, plus my husband, who has heart problems is on 2 meds a month, plus had prostate cancer is at the doctors every 3 months and my son who was diagnosed with Crohns Disease this year and is on 4 meds every month is costing us a fortune. Our insurance costs us almost $300 per month on my husbands plan. I can't imagine not having insurance and pay for our meds, it would cost us over $800 per month.

[Cleita]

26. Yes, but the CEO of his health plan is enjoying his new yacht

purchased with the money saved from paying for this insured's office visit money and many others like him. We need universal health care now.

[ohioliberal]

28. I totally agree!

[lynintenn]

27. TennCare

TennCare in Tennessee is purging almost 400,000 adults from its rolls. The working poor or mentally ill. Mentally ill people in group homes will be turned out on the street since Tenncare will no longer pay for their care. The other cannot afford insurance. The purge will make Tennessee the most uninsured state in the union. I bet a lot of these people voted for Bush.

[Bouncy Ball]

32. Ever heard of CHIPs?

Children's Health Insurance Program? Repuke legislators in Texas have been kicking kids off this very good, very cost effective program right and left for the past three years or so.

It is a low-cost health insurance program for the children of LOW-INCOME WORKING parents. It encourages the parents to continue working instead of quitting and taking Medicaid and it covers their kids (doctors visit, hospitalizations, prescriptions, the whole nine yards).

Well, they raised the income level at which you can qualify, meaning THOUSANDS of kids were knocked off the program. My own state representative (asshole repuke) gleefully voted for it.

Then they cut funding to the program, knocking even MORE kids off.

Such a STUPID move. Now there are more parents putting their kids on Medicaid, which costs MORE than CHIPs did!!!

Also, the state of Texas got $2 from the federal government for evey $1 they kicked into the CHIPs fund. Guess what? A couple of years ago, under repuke gov. Rick Perry, they "FORGOT" to put in the dollars necessary to get the federal funds!!!

Which means they had to kick MORE kids off!!!

I think the total number of kids who lost coverage under CHIPs is now 300,000 or more.

Nice, huh? And the program had been proven to be COST-EFFECTIVE!!!!

Repukes will even shoot themselves in the foot to hurt poor and minority kids.

[flamin lib]

39. Ahhh, Bouncy Ball,

We are on the same song sheet. Texas has become an endlessly Red state, not just from a political point of view but from a financial one as well. Red ink as far as the eye can see.

My next door neighbor is retired from the Texas health system. He said to me that poor people who don't have insurance were just too lazy to get a job. I looked him in the eye and said, "Gee, thanks for that insight. I'll be telling Melanie (my 22 year old daughter) about that. I can sometimes catch her between her daytime job at the restaurant and her evening bar-tending job. She'll be interested to know how lazy she is."

We are paying for universal health care now, just not getting it. The indigent go to the emergency room because that treatment is required by law. Instead of a $15 antibiotic shot we get $900 of emergency care. Texas hospitals write off as much as 40% of their charges. That's why those of us who can pay get charged $25 for an aspirin. What other business could sustain such write offs? From what other service would we tolerate such charges?

[Oreo]

42. what was his reply?

[flamin lib]

54. Like usual, just wide eyed embarrassment.

found a spelling error

We've live next door to each other for 20+ years. He's a born again Shi'ite Baptist and a Bush supporter to the end. Thinks God got him elected.

One day we are both mowing our yard and he comes over and starts telling me that the atheists are taking our freedoms away, that they are coming for our guns and want to outlaw the bible. So I get this horrified look on my face and say,"Gosh, I'm so sorry I'm doing all that to you. I'll be sure to stop doing it right away!"

I almost felt sorry for him. Left him completely speechless. It took him two days to come over and apologize to me.

Just lately we got into it over Saddam's tie to 9/11 and all the terrorists he was training. Patiently explained to him that he Senate Intelligence committee couldn't find a tie, the 9/11 commission couldn't find a tie, Bush/Rumsfeld/Rice/Powell all admitted in public that there wasn't a tie. He go so MAAAD he was spitting and shouted,"If you're so smart and know all this why aren't you telling somebody about it!!!" So I sez,"Golly, Daryl, I'm talking to my next door neighbor about it right now . . ."

Sometimes it's so easy I feel guilty.

[Bouncy Ball]

64. I officially love you.

Shi'ite Baptist, you are killing me here. I've got to remember that one.

[PA Democrat]

70. And when those poor kids are too sick to go to school

because their parents can't afford basic health care, society as a whole loses. But I guess in Texas, they will just "cook the books" when it comes to their NCLB testing.

[Bouncy Ball]

78. Hey, it's worked so far!

/sarcasm off

Yep, as an educator, I can tell you chronic absences from school really affects a kid and their education. If they get too far behind, they just feel like giving up. They are far more likely to drop out of school before graduating, thus far less likely to find a good job with benefits, thus continuing to have poor medical attention and possibly raising their OWN family in that manner.

And it goes on and on....

[SmokingJacket]

29. We have a $5000 deductible.

My two kids needed physicals to enroll in school. They're healthy, normal boys -- it came to over $200!!!

Since we're healthy (knock on wood) high-deductible is a sort-of okay solution for us. The problem comes in situations like this:

My son bumped his head on the coffee table and cried for a long time, then vomited. I knew that he was *probably* all right because he often vomits after crying, but I wasn't sure... what if it was a concussion? Money became a factor: if we went to the emergency room it could cost thousands of dollars... just to find out he was fine!

I HATE thinking about my pocketbook when my children's health is on the line!

Luckily we have a cool doctor we could call who told us just to watch him, so it turned out all right. But it certainly didn't feel right.

[Oreo]

36. Ouch

I couldn't imagine the feeling of not being able to take my 2 year old to the doctor. We are very lucky... only a $10 deductible per visit.
He had bad ear infections when he was younger and the only thing that would help was antibiotics and eventually tubes. Not having that option is frightening... his hearing was affected which in turn slowed his ability to speak. If he wasn't helped early, it could have been a permanent problem. That's where I am coming from... getting preventative and immediate healthcare saves the need for more expensive procedures in the future. It's obvious to me... why can't the right see this?

[newportdadde]

34. Good friend of my wife is married to a preacher.

Of course they voted for Bush ala abortion but she is now pregnant for the second time. The first time they had great insurance as she was still working as an actuary. This time however its going to cost them thousands out of pocket because of the churches crap health insurance plan they bought them.

My response "To bad folks like yourself who serve the will of God can't take advantage of a National Health Insurance like Kerry wanted." I do in some way feel sorry for them but on the other side of the coin you get what you pay for.

[knitter4democracy]

115. The church should pay for it.

I'm fighting some people in my church right now on this. They don't even want to pay for any health insurance, wanting a new priest to instead get a second job (or his wife to--when she's taking care of their special needs son). Freakin' idiots. I'm sorry, but I'm so mad about this and can't tell anyone else. How can his church board look him in the eye and not pay for his child?!

[LunaC]

35. Why do docs charge so damn much to begin with?

Yeah, yeah, office expenses, nurse and secretary salaries, malpractice insurance, etc., but I bet this guy (or any other patient) didn't spend more than 10 minutes with the doc. At $189 a pop, that's $1134/hr or $9000+/day (assuming an 8hr day). You can't tell me the doc's expenses are THAT high and he/she isn't making money hand over fist while the patients are getting screwed. It's sinful!

[midnight armadillo]

46. There's also the student loans

Med school can cost $100k to attend, plus any undergraduate loans.

And yes, they also have to pay rent, nurses, taxes, insurance, and office workers out of that fee.

Doctors should be well compensated - it takes a long time to be trained, during which they go into massive debt and live on a shoestring, and we trust them to make very important decisions with our lives, literally.

[LunaC]

51. Still doesn't compute

At $189 a pop, they're raking in over $2 million a year. I don't want to hear the old lament about school loans. Those loans, I'm guessing, are probably paid off withn the first five years of practice.

When 50% of bankruptcies are filed because of excessive medical bills and the majority of docs are driving high-end luxury cars, living in McMansions and vacationing all over the world, there's something drastically wrong with this picture.

[knitter4democracy]

117. It isn't $189 a pop.

My husband owes over $175K for med school. We cannot possibly pay that off in five years of practice. The only docs doing that are specialized radiologists or pathologists. My husband drives an older Taurus, which was a major step-up for us from the eleven year old piece of junk, our house is not in the great part of town, and we haven't taken a real vacation since we got married. We're just now paying down the credit card debt that got us through his med school and residency. Most residents in our program had over $15K in credit card debt for things like groceries and clothes for their kids. No one had any fancy cars or anything like that. I know, there are many doctors who come from rich families, but not the ones here in Kalamazoo, MI.

That visit was probably a history and physical or maybe a Level II or III visit, depending on what was covered and done. If he'd had insurance, the company wouldn't have paid that but some lower figure they'd pulled out of the air--six months to a year later. My husband's seeing all the new patients in the practice now (four doctors, three mid-level providers, and almost 17,000 active patients), and he only does up to four h&p's a day, unless you count the hospital rounds and admissions (done before or after hours only). At least life is better now, now that he's no longer working 120 hours a week, like in residency.

[pantouflard]

37. Can't get health insurance at any price.

I'm turned down every time I apply due to chronic problems. I spend approx. $800/month on prescriptions. Can't work a full-time job, so can't get benefits, but don't qualify for disability.

I don't get expensive medical tests unless I'm seriously ill. I have put off needed dental work because it carries a $6000 price tag.

In CA you can get catastrophic coverage from the state, but there's a two-year waiting list and the premiums are about $1200/month.

Oh, Canada!

[knitter4democracy]

118. I'm so very sorry.

I wish you could come here to Michigan to have my husband treat you. He'd figure out a way to at least get you help for the prescriptions.

[sendero]

38. You know what...

... I think I'd have had the same reaction (except the hug part :)).

Our "standard of living" just keeps eroding and eroding, like a frog in a pot of water coming slowing to a boil, we are just now realizing it.

[Bouncy Ball]

47. If you saw his face

and the dirt under his nails, you might have wanted to hug him. You know that look when you just know it's sheer hurt on the person's face? Just complete pain? That's how he looked. And I'm not normally a person given to sappiness, but his face just killed me. I guess also because I've been in that position, I knew what he was feeling.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. And that's why I'll NEVER EVER EVER EVER consider living in the USA

Shit. Even fucking BRAZIL is better.

[Mizmoon]

44. At Least he doesn't have to wait in line

everytime anyone brings up universal coverage, people start yapping about waiting in lines. at least there is a damn line with universal.

[Bouncy Ball]

48. I agree.

I bet you anything he would have stood in a line a mile long just not to have to write out a check that big to see the doctor.

I would, too.

[eyepaddle]

49. And the truly sad irony here is

that we DO wait in lines. Try making an appointment with an opthalmologist some time. It took me a month and a half to get in. Oh sure, I wasn't physically camped in a line, but I waited nonethelss.

We have the worst of these two worlds; extremely high prices and poor (and poorly distributed) services.

edited for stylistic reasons (I just love parentheses!)

[iverglas]

45. Canadian health care: I don't say these things to make you envious!

... it's that

"Some people see things as they are, and ask why.
I dream of things that never were, and ask why not."

thing. ;)

I've related the story of my father's illness and death, 2 years ago, at DU before:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=32286&forum=DCForumID60
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=190&topic_id=1029#1042
(the second one also contains links to information about the Canadian system, at DU and elsewhere)
-- as an example of how it works.

I've finally got around to getting myself some healthcare this month. ;)

My dad was discovered, on a post mortem exam, to have died of a blocked coronary artery (while he was dying of metastacized melanoma), as had his father, and the coroner recommended that us kids get examined. Also, my brother was diagnosed (and successfully treated for) a melanoma this past fall, and my mum has had regular treatments for years for cancerous and pre-cancerous skin lesions (thus a possible genetic factor). And I'm a middle-aged couch potato.

I went to my community health clinic (my choice - a non-profit multi-service community centre rather than a private-practice physician) for a persistent cough from this year's cold virus, and the nurse practitioner sent me off for the tests I was supposed to have last year.

On January 11, I had:
- mammogram
- the range of blood/urine testing (cholesterol, blood sugar ...)
- chest x-ray
- electrocardiagram

I got a call from the clinic to say my blood sugar is "high". It seems that 6.2 is now called high. So I go back next week to do a glucose tolerance test, to determine whether I have impaired glucose tolerance (risk for diabetes) or just impaired fasting glucose (just enough to get some chastizing from the doc). My electrocardiagram was fine, and I forgot to ask about the cholesterol.

A few days later, I got another call from the clinic. My mammogram has shown something questionable. I hasten to say I'm not worried and am sure it's the same thing observed 15 years ago, after which I had a surgical consultation and ultrasound, with the conclusion that it might be old calcification, but whatever it was, it wasn't a tumour. So I need another mammogram. Called the x-ray lab this morning and couldn't get an appointment 'til the end of February -- they have trouble getting mammogram technicians in. (This *is* an on-going problem in our system, caused by underfunding by right-wing govts in the recent medium term: a shortage of radiation personnel.) I whined. She found me one on Feb 10. I whined that my doctor's appointment was Feb 11. She fit me in next Tuesday. I realized she probably thought I was in distress about my results, when I was really just whining, but what the hell.

So there we have it -- in the space of exactly one month, I'll have had:

- two visits to my medical clinic
(diagnostic and for whatever treatment is determined to be required on my upcoming second visit)
- two mammograms
- blood and urine testing
- a follow-up lab test
- a follow-up mammogram.

At *no* out-of-pocket cost to me. Except for parking. And any medication I'm prescribed, since I'm not over 65 and not low-income and don't have supplementary health insurance. (Yup, self-employment here too.)

There are two main aspects of access to health care services.

The first is ability to pay. Where I am, ability to pay plays no role in access.

The second is availability of services. Availability does play some role here, and this is the part that you folks south of the border hear so much about that is negative: long waiting periods, inability to get treatment. But while there is anecdotal evidence of problems in that respect -- and while there are shortages in some specific treatment fields and in some geographic areas -- the overwhelming majority of people do not experience any difficulty accessing services in the overwhelming majority of instances. And, in fact, I would put my access to services this month up against what anyone with top-flight private health insurance in the US has.

So you folks don't really have to "dream of things that never were" -- because those things *are*, just not in the US. That's where you need to ask "why not".

[Sgent]

50. Why $189

First thing, at 189, I imagine that it was a couple of things (could be any of the following, or multiple).

1) The patient was new to the practice. This means that the average visit would be 30 minutes, not 10.

2) Most likely, he had more done than just a visit -- some sort of testing, bloodwork, etc.

3) Visits are based on complexity, not neccisarily time. If he had a large number of diagnosis or other issues.

4) The office overcharged him. Due to contracts with insurance companies, medicare, and the way they work, the HIGHEST price charged will always be to a cash paying patient. This can be anywhere from 10-50% more than the doctor will be reimbursed from an insurance company.

[Cleita]

52. Posted by another Canadian DUer yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3009706

[iverglas]

56. and a whole load of stuff to read ...

here, about Canadian health care:

http://www.healthcoalition.ca

Remember -- this is critique of Canada's system from the left, as well as defences of Canada's system from that same perspective.

Basic stuff to read:

http://www.healthcoalition.ca/rc.html
For-Profit Hospitals and Clinics
Enforcement of the Canada Health Act
For-Profit MRI/CT Clinics
Medical Savings Accounts
Privatization of Health Care
Public-Private Partnerships
Shouldice Hernia Centre: A Model for Medicare?

And bookmark this one:

Myth Busters: Debunking Myths About Medicare
http://www.healthcoalition.ca/debunking-myths.html
(links to pdf documents with the info to debunk the myths, which are also prevalent in the US)

"For-profit ownership of facilities would lead to a more efficient health care system"
"The Aging Population will Overwhelm the Health Care System"
"Baby Boomers Will Bankrupt Medicare"
"User Fees would Stop Waste and Ensure Better Use of the Healthcare System"
"Medicare is not Workable"
"Medicare will be Protected in Trade Agreements"
"A Parallel Private System Would Reduce Waiting Times in the Public System"
"Health Care is Just another Commodity"
"For-Profit Health Care Would Improve Quality of Care"
"More Money Would Put an End to Emergency Room Crunches "
"For-Profit Health Care Would Lower Costs"
"Medicare is Bad for Business"
"Canadian Doctors are Leaving for the United States in Droves"
"High and Increasing Drug Prices are Needed to Sustain Research and Development"

and refer to it often ...

[Taxloss]

55. Thank God you don't live in the Hell that is the British NHS

Good healthcare, free. But ... but ... you might have to wait a couple of days!!!!!!!! And ... and ... SOME OF THE HOSPITALS ARE UGLY!

[Cleita]

58. I would take the British NHS any day over our system.

We have ugly hospitals too.

[Taxloss]

62. You don't understand, it's a perpetual socialist nightmare.

Of course, the care is good, and you don't pay a penny. But I need a very minor eye operation, so - and this is where the socialist nightmare comes in - I take the day off work, go to the eye hospital, and the procedure will take place for free. And here's the awful part - I have to wait for up to three hours!!!!!!!!!! For a free operation! That I don't even have an appointment for! And I was even warned in advanced to bring a drink and a book! And the waiting area MIGHT NOT HAVE POT PLANTS!

OK, I'll stop with the sarcasm - I do need the procedure and will have to wait, and I get excellent care because I live in central London (better facilities, longer waits). But the NHS, despite its faults, is the best healthcare system in the entire world, in my opinion.

[Cleita]

80. Thanks for saying that.

I need cataract surgery and I don't know when that will happen because I don't know when I will get the money together. Also, when I do, because it's elective surgery, it could be scheduled in months, not days. In the meantime, I get a little blinder every day.

[Taxloss]

84. Oh damn, I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to be thoughtless. I'm so sorry. Please, accept my apologies and best wishes.

[Cleita]

89. I didn't mean to bum you out. Sorry.

It's just a fact of life Americans are facing everyday with our increasing lack of access to health care as we grow older and less able to cover our health expenses. This is why this country really needs to have a system like NHS or the Canadian system.

I would think the health care providers would welcome this. Wouldn't it mean more patients and business for them?

[iverglas]

103. challenge you to a duel

The NHS *was* once the best, and we all have to pay serious tribute to you Brits for starting the whole thing in the first place.

(Watched a tremendous series about post-WWII British political/social development on Ontario's public TV network a few months ago. What Labour did in a couple of decades in so many areas -- health care and workers' rights being big ones -- was an absolutely stupendous leap forward in human evolution. What Thatcher did in a much shorter time was criminal.)

But two-tier was the death of it. Anecdotal evidence: I spent a night in an NHS hospital in central London (Stoke-Newington, actually) ten years ago. Maybe it's improved since -- I think I may have -- but it was crap then. Crap compared to what it should have been, not compared to what it would have been in similar circumstances in the US, I hasten to add.

My mother had taken a header on one of those paving stones, and had a huge goose-egg on her head, and our friend raced us to the nearest hospital. We sat for 5 hours in the waiting room. There was blood on the floor when we arrived that was there when we left. Someone bled on the reception desk and it was there when we left. There was blood on the examining table the resident told my mother to get up on, until the resident noticed it.

The nurse who triaged my mother (it wasn't a serious injury) was unable to give us ice for the swelling. I had to buy cold pop from the dispensing machine for the purpose -- and I had to cadge change from the assorted obviously low-income, mainly immigrant population of the waiting room, since I had only bills.

When the resident told us to go home and put ice on the injury, I turned a cold eye on the nurse who had had no ice, and said "ice; what a novel idea." And he said "well that's what you get when you have a single-tier system." I said "in Ontario we have a single-tier system, and we also have ice." But hey -- they didn't charge us anything!

And the thing is -- !!! -- the UK did *not* have a single-tier system, it had a two-tier system, and that was the whole problem as I saw it.

That very same night, my London friend's partner (my friend is a successful lefty solicitor) was ensconsed in a fancy new hospital in the West End, with its fancy sunny atrium, having all the tests modern medicine could imagine, and choosing from a room service meal menu. No shortage of ice in her drinks, I'd think. *She* had private insurance.

When the rich are allowed to opt out of the public system for their care, they tend to want to opt out of the public system with their money, too. They don't tend to want to keep paying taxes so that those other people in other neighbourhoods can have hospitals that at least have ice for head injuries, if not sunny atriums and room service.

Two-tier systems don't work in the long run, and my experience in the UK is one of the reasons I will fight to the death against any introduction of a private tier in Canada's system.

*My* health care system is the best in the world.

Now put 'em up. ;)

[Taxloss]

124. It is better than it was 10 years ago.

Triage certainly is. But at night, 3 hour waits can be expected in casualty wards for non-urgent cases. We do NOT have a two-tier system, we have the NHS and a few private providers.

I daresay Canada's system is better than ours; we spend enough time picking holes in ours. This is the point we "crummy socialists" link arms and pity the deprived ultra-capitalists.

Incidentally, I believe extreme cold is bad for head wounds, but I may be wrong.

[iverglas]

130. two-tier

The definition I'm going with is that there are two separate systems: one is the public payer/insurer system, and the other is the private payer/insurer system.

If a user can seek services outside the public payer system, it's two-tier.

In Canada, the "medically necessary services" that are covered by the public payer system may not be sold or purchased on the private market with private insurance.

"Two-tier" is certainly what we call the UK system:

http://www.web.net/ohc/docs/fallnews4.htm
(an August 2001 article from the apparently defunct PunditMag, reprinted at the Ontario Health Coalition site)

As <former Ontario Tory> Health Minister, Clement secretly flew to the United Kingdom to meet with Conservative leader William Hague and tour the two-tier National Health Services. Days later, Harris told reporters that "we are looking at what roles the private sector can play, whether they can do things more efficiently, more effectively, better service, better price." Asked to clarify his position on two-tier care, Clement responded that "You can't go around with your head in the sand and look at health care and the growing advances and new technologies and escalation in costs and not be looking at other jurisdictions, including Britain."

The cruel joke is how the right wing argues that allowing private insurance to be purchased, and allowing service providers to provide services outside the public system at their discretion, will somehow solve availability problems within the public system. Ah yes, the services used by the private payers will be extra services, services that magically become available when somebody else is paying for them.

Voodoo economics, y'know.

I do understand that the NHS is recovering, but as long as the rich can go outside it, it seems to me that it will be vulnerable to attack, by anyone with a taste for spending/tax cuts, by underfunding.

[Taxloss]

131. I concede the point.

We have a two-tier system.

[Logansquare]

161. Three hour waits and more are common for uninsured in the US

I had a friend who was out of work and her COBRA had expired--i.e. the expensive insurance extension that one can get with unemployment. A cut on her finger became infected and wasn't responding to home treatments, and she couldn't afford to pay out of pocket. In Chicago, this means going to Cook County Hospital for care on a sliding scale. She waited six hours for someone to look at her, while severely ill and injured people without insurance were being treated.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. NO WAY!!!

I better thank my lucky stars that instead of that, I am lucky enough to have to put money aside as often as I can to save up for my daughter's occasional doctor's visits.

And we won't even get into the dentist! No dental coverage here! And no vision, either. So my glasses and eye exams are quite expensive!

Cha-ching!

But hell, at least I don't have to wait a couple of days or look at ugly hospitals.

Wait. Sometimes I DO have to wait that long and longer for an appointment and I really don't care what the hospital looks like as long as they take good care of me.

:-(

[Taxloss]

76. Sadly, the NHS only partially covers dental treatment.

And hardly covers opticiians at all. You by chance (?) managed to alight on the two areas that the last Conservative government wrecked.

Thanks to the Conservative-introduced "free-market" in dental care, if you can't find an NHS dentist you have to go private. There's a shortage of NHS dentists brought on by the brilliant deregulation of dental care. But even private dentists are subsidised, so it won't break the bank, but it's still a very poor use of government money.

Optician services were fully hived off by the Conservatives decades ago. Most employers have government-mandated schemes whereby all employees receive free tests. But you have to pay for the spectacles.

What happened in these areas is the reason the RW plan to kill off free healthcare in this country came to nothing -the people revolted and started voting Labour in droves. And the services we once had were easy to lose, and can never be regained. A lesson, there for the proposed privatisaton of Social Security - Just Don't. It is a scam, and you will end up paying more.

[Bouncy Ball]

77. Oh I agree.

So in the UK, you can have free health care, but screw your sight (because of the right wing)? Sounds like the right wing is the same greedy ass bastards everywhere.

[Taxloss]

82. Well, the teeth are screwed (stereotypically), but not the sight.

The government provides for those who cannot afford an optician, and leans on employers to provide their own coverage. The sad thing being it's private companies profiting from public health.

Short-sighted RWers forget that these systems are their because their benefits cannot be measured, but basically mean a healthy and willing workforce. I don't want what is spent on my health - be it public or private - going into some rich fuck's pocket. We're trying to stop the rot here, but you have to save your social security! It's the crown jewel of the New Deal, and it is NOT in crisis!

[iverglas]

143. you've got us beat there

Few provinces have any provision for dental (or prescription drugs) in the public plan.

And Ontario just de-listed optical prescription services altogether. Eyeglasses were never paid for (only under a separate program, for low income earners/social assistance recipients), and now we're not even covered for the every-two-year eye exam the previous govt had reduced us to from once a year.

These are in fact things that we who proclaim our system the "best" often forget -- we tend to compare what we have, in this respect, to what the US hasn't, without noticing that others, specifically Europeans, have different and sometimes better things. The same is true in areas like child care.

So maybe it's a draw. ;)

[Logansquare]

162. Dental care in the U.S. is in crisis right now

My cousin just shut down his dental practice because his mostly working class clientele can no longer pay for basic dental care. He said that patients were waiting until they were in pain for dental care. In most cases, he could save teeth with root canals and crowns, but his clients had either no dental insurance or such poor coverage that they could only afford extractions! He is contracting at bigger dental clinics now, but is disgusted that dentistry has become a cosmetic luxury for the haves. He explained that inflammation from tooth decay causes other illnesses, like cardiovascular disease, and healthy teeth should not be a luxury.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

59. Being that my husband is a teacher, and I stay at home

with our 2 year old son, we can't afford the nice health care plan that the county offers us. It's rather sad that professionals like teachers can't even afford health good health insurance for their families.

I brought my son to a doctor in our neighborhood when he was sick once at about 17 months old. It seemed like just the flu to me, but since he was so young, I thought it would be best to have him checked out. Sure enough, that's what it was. The doctor charge us $150 for the visit. However, I think it is far cheaper to pay for individual doctor visits than it is to pay for some of these health insurance plans on a monthly basis.

Yes, I've looked into the CHIPs plan for our state, and our son would qualify for low cost health insurance IF HE WAS 5 TO 17 YEARS OLD. There's apparently no plan for working families with babies, toddlers, and preschoolers other than Medicaid, and you have to be making next to nothing to qualify for that. Isn't that just disgusting? The health of my child apparently doesn't matter because he's not old enough to attend public school yet.

Anyhow, we've got a low cost emergency hospitalization plan, so we are covered in an emergency. That's the best we can do for right now. We're going to be moving to CT in a few months. They seem to have a much better health care program for kids than Florida does.

IF YOU THINK YOUR DOCTOR'S BILLS ARE TOO HIGH, try looking for a health care facility that operates on a sliding scale fee system. You might have to drive a little bit further to get to them, but the amount of money you could save will make it worth it. I brought my son to one of these kinds of places for his 2 year old check up and we only had to pay $15 for the visit (much better than $150).

[Bouncy Ball]

66. Yeah we have those here.

They are a nightmare. You will wait in the waiting room for up to 12 hours and it is packed with sick people waiting to get in. No appointments are allowed, so you get there and camp out forever.

I guess it is better when you have no other choice. But, at least in my experience, the level of care is lower, too.

We shouldn't have to make these choices, should we? We should all be able to take our kids to the freaking doctor!!!

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

74. That wasn't my experience.

I've been to this place several times and never waited longer than 45 minutes. I live in the Orlando area too, which I consider to be a big city. The care my son and I received was quite good. I went to one of their offices throughout my pregnancy because I was on medicaid then. They have seperate pediatrician offices for children.

Are you talking about a walk-in clinic? You can wait for a few hours at one of these places. The walk-in clinics I've been to have not offered any sliding scale fees. The only difference between these walk-in clinics and a regular doctor's office is that an appointment is not needed and their business hours are extended (nights and weekends).

[IntravenousDemilo]

61. Jesus H Christ

I read these things up here in Iglooland and shake my head in sadness about the third-world, tinpot dictatorship you have to live in, where so many don't have access to universal or at least affordable health care, where old-age pensions are threatened with privatization, and where the middle class is threatened with extinction, yet multiple billions are spent on ruinous military adventures and expensive weapons systems (someone's turning into North Korea) and giving tax breaks to what basically are corporate feudal aristocrats -- and on top of that, your country is turning into a homophobic, intolerant, children-of-the-corn theocracy like Saudi Arabia. And what about that wonky electoral system, where elections take TWO YEARS? But of course, I need hardly tell you about these things. I'm just expressing my disbelieving sadness that your leaders haven't seen fit to follow our example (where it works properly).

My boyfriend, who posts here at DU, lives in Chicago, and if he doesn't rescue himself and move up here, we Canadians may have to invade and liberate your country, and then impose universal health care, etc, upon the American public.

And we expect to be greeted with flowers, too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

67. Invade ASAP! Please!

We'll leave a trail of rose petals for you.

[Bouncy Ball]

69. Oh yes, I second that.

I'll go get some flowers now so I have them ready. How fast do you think you'll get to Texas?

Send those mounties!

[Bouncy Ball]

68. Brava.

What a great post. You summed things up so well. And it's sad, isn't it?

I think I'll smack the next person who attempts to tell me how great America is.

It *might* have once been good, but there's no doubt we're swirling down the toilet now, for all the reasons you listed, which are all too real.

[PA Democrat]

75. What kind of chocolates do you like? n/t

[yankeedem]

96. Bring some Timbits

and some wine gum if you have room in your pack.

[LeftyMom]

108. Can you wait until the first

I haven't got the money for flowers at the moment. :)

[MsAnthropy]

79. I hope you're not basing your judgement of the entire healthcare system

on one airhead bimbo who shouldn't be behind a receptionist desk, or dealing with the public at all, for that matter. What an idiotic thing to say to a patient. A professional would not have said something so callous.

[Cleita]

83. Tactless as the receptionist was, she spoke the truth.

The only people who get really good health insurance in this country are the rich who can afford it and the healthy young people who really don't need it except for occasional care.

[Bouncy Ball]

86. What healthcare system?

Yeah it was unprofessional. But did she lie? He CANNOT afford doctor's visits even WITH a job with health insurance. How crazy is that?

And I don't have to go by that one guy. It's happened in my own family. It's happened to friends, coworkers, all around me.

It's not so much what she said, it's the WHOLE situation. It's a crying shame. It's criminal. People who work hard should be able to take themselves and their children to the doctor when they are sick. Or better yet, for preventative care to keep from getting sick when they don't have to.

Do you disagree?

[MsAnthropy]

90. Not at all. Healthcare, like every other corporation, is being run by

criminals because the government is being run by criminals. The CEOs of the healthcare companies in our area are the highest paid executives in the state, with salaries at $50-$100 million dollars a year, while both doctors and patients are being shortchanged and cheated. I get a little tired of the doctor-bashing on this forum.

[Bouncy Ball]

91. I'm not doctor bashing at all.

I think it's sad this guy has a job and health insurance and STILL can't afford to see a doctor. Where did I doctor bash?

[MsAnthropy]

92. Not you, some of the other posters

To insinuate that because one visit cost $189, the doctor must be pulling in $2 million a year is just assinine. I agree with your anguish for this man and for everyone else who should be receiving the healthcare we deserve as Americans and which is being stolen from us.

[knitter4democracy]

114. That visit was billed at probably a level II . . .

Depending on what all was covered by the doctor and the nurse. That $189 was not a regular office visit but more like a history and physical. There's no way a general doc is making $2 million a year. LOL!!! I wish my husband made that kind of money for the hours. I just wrote the monthly checks to pay back the med school loans the other day: $1200+ --- and that's if we want to take 30 years to pay them off and after they've been consolidated. Oh, and then there are the license fees, the journal subscriptions, and all the other costs that are more expensive just because he's a doctor.

Attacking the doctors is understandable. It really is. Just remember, though, they're like teachers in some ways: stuck in a broken system and just as pissed about it as you are. Many are trying to help as many patients as possible, and many are fighting to make things better for all of us.

[grasswire]

85. two thoughts....

1. Through a university or college or community college, some group health coverage is available to students. It might be possible for some to enroll for a year with grant assistance to get the dual benefit of more schooling AND health care.

2. If you have the opportunity to join a union, health care is usually available through that.

[Bouncy Ball]

88. Union, LOL

I'm in Texas. So was this guy. We do have some unions, but some professions, such as mine are forbidden by state law to have any collective bargaining power (teachers).

Thank you for the suggestions, though. Unfortunately, grant money has been cut quite a bit by the bush administration and in Texas, college tuition has gone sky high since the state decided about 18 months ago to stop putting caps on it. The state schools went crazy when they lifted that.

Still, if one can swing one of those two things, it can help.

[old blue]

94. I just footed the bill for my girlfriend's dr. visit this morning

She's 20 years old and uninsured. Her parents can no longer afford to keep her on their policy, and student health insurance at the university is out of range too. Yay.

[Kahutec]

102. $890 per month

I pay $890 per month for health insurance for my wife and 3 children. My youngest has a small strawberry mark on her cheek that needs to be removed. The cost to me is $2000 prior to scheduling surgery. I wrote that check and tomorrow my 5 year old will have her surgery. I guess I should not complain because if I did not have such a high deductible, I would be paying a higher monthly premium. We need a system that does not bilk the working man. Damn, I will be struggling to keep one nostril above water. I guess I am just one paycheck away from disaster!

[cats4dems]

100. been there

Because I've gone back to college I have health insurance. It's lousy, but better then nothing. I went without for a few years, and spent a hell of a lot of money on doctors when I got sick. I think it's about time that there is an Uninsured March on Washinton. Maybe that would at least get the media's attention.

[Cleita]

101. How about a march of the underinsured as well and those

elderly who stand to lose Medicare benefits under the BFEE? Hell, all Americans who believe access to healthcare is a human right as much as access to food and shelter should march on these basic issues.

[cats4dems]

104. Absolutely

Health Care as a Human Right would be a great approach. So would Pro-Family=Pro-Health Care.

[Bouncy Ball]

105. 44 million people, or even a fraction of that

would make a HUGE impression, wouldn't it?

[SoCalDem]

106. This is the way most insurance USED to be.. the only difference

is that office visits and prescriptions also USED to be affordable.

We had insurance once with a deductible, and all you did way pay the doctor, get his signature and the visit information on YOUR insurance form. We copied it, and mailed it off.. When we met or exceeded our deductible, they mailed us a check for 80% of every medical expense we had afterwards.

Back then when my kids were small, I could have all of them seen by their pediatrician, have them get shots and write a check for about $40..A prescription for Amoxicillin ran about $8 .. We could afford out-of-pocket medical expenses..

HMOs ran the cost of medicine SKY-HIGH, and of course no doctor can afford to undercut their prices, or they would be overloaded with patients and probably run out of town on a rail by the HMOs...

What needs to happen is for a bunch of ethical doctors to just flat out rebel against the way things are. The doctors we have spoken to HATE HATE HATE the way medicine is now. They are little more than "employees" of the HMO companies, and as soon as they can (around here) the good doctors head for areas where wealthier people live, and they DO open a private practice because of the paperwork nonsense. We have lost 2 doctors that very way.:(

[knitter4democracy]

122. Some are.

There've been a few articles this year in Medical Economics (great journal, btw) and AMNews about doctors going solo and then not taking any insurance at all--not even med. mal. Some are finally saying it was better before all of this crap and pretty much turning their backs on the system. Trust me, everyone's talking about it and watching those guys to see if they stay in business.

[SoCalDem]

129. I hope they succeed, but the hospitals are the fly in the ointment

If you can find a doctor who is reasonably priced, and takes good care of you that's great, BUT if you are ever needing a hospital, you will lose everything without insurance..

In my childhood, most hospitals had a church affiliation, and were not-for-profit, so costs were minimal.. Of course they did not have all the fancy equipment that is the norm..

I don't know what the solution is anymore..:cry:.. Perhaps nationalizing the whole health care "industry" from top to bottom is the only way to ever get costs down.. We know that won;t happen in our lifetimes..

It irks me to no end to know that a few super rich people are getting even richer, at the expense of sick people.. It's obscene..

[knitter4democracy]

159. It is obscene.

I don't know what to do anymore, either. My husband's just happy to be seeing patients on his own now, but he's getting more and more angry everyday at how things are going. We're lucky here in Michigan that all hospitals are non-profit (it's in our constitution), so that helps somewhat. Of course, non-profits have changed too . . . I don't know. The only answer is a national health care system, but the rich will have to feel the pain a whole lot more before anything will change on that.

[KatyaR]

109. That's basically become my motto.

I have "good" insurance through my job, but over the last three years my employer has changed carriers or coverage types every year, and we have had to shoulder the increased costs.

In November and December I had an appointment with a doctor (and I had finally found a really good one) and two eye visits, one for an exam for glasses (hadn't had new ones in probably 5 years) and a second follow-up because I'm now classified as "glaucoma suspect" (almost but not quite there yet). I had my thyroid removed several years ago and have to take daily maintenance medication. So at the doctor's I had a basic exam and bloodwork done, and the eye doctor did several tests both times (more extensive the second visit). I paid my copays and walked out the door.

Turns out after it was turned in to insurance that I hadn't met my deductible for the year, so I now have to pay over $500 in additional expenses that the insurance will not cover. These are BASIC TESTS that I had to have, not just elective stuff! This will take me at least the rest of the year to pay off.

I had to cancel additional appointments with an orthopedic surgeon and a GYN because I can't afford to pay for any more doctors visits. I have a follow-up in March, I don't know if I'll be able to go or not. But yet, I HAVE to take maintenance meds, and you have to see a doctor to get a prescription. Plus, my generic thyroid medication has gone up in the last three years from about $4 a month to $10--every time I get it refilled, it's more expensive.

Complain to some people about this, and they will say "you should just be glad you have insurance." WTF?

Oh, and don't even ask about going to the dentist--I haven't been in years . . . .

/end of rant

[Megahurtz]

110. That's what happens with unregulated

health care. The corporations can jack up the prices.

I've always thought it was a crock to pay so much monthly fees on health insurance and have to pay a stupid deductible. And 3000.00 is bloody ridiculous.

What a racket.

[knitter4democracy]

113. He needs to go to her superior--the doctor or office manager.

I'm not sure the doctor knew of the receptionist's attitude, and if he did, he should do something about it. I know my husband's practice works out payment plans in case insurance doesn't cover anything or if the patient doesn't have any. Many practices do. In fact, I know my husband's actually cut the cost himself, just telling the billing department to take care of it. He'd go postal if that man was his patient. What happened was wrong. Very wrong.

[Cleita]

116. Where is your husband's practice?

Around here, if you don't have insurance, it's money up front and if you haven't met your deductible it's money up front again. No payment plans are offered except for very expensive procedures like surgeries and such.

[knitter4democracy]

120. That's awful!

He's here in Battle Creek, Michigan with Battle Creek Medical Associates. He would be sick if anyone treated a patient of his that way, and trust me, he'd make some noise.

[Bouncy Ball]

145. Same thing here.

[Vinca]

119. Welcome to my world.

We are self employed. For the past 7 years we've had a policy with a $4,500 deductible (to make it affordable). We never filed a claim, they never paid a dime on our behalf. Over the years the premium has risen in double digits every year, the last being a 36% increase. It now is 4 times our mortgage payment, 3 times our property tax payment and we can't afford it. Until there is health insurance reform, we'll be keeping our fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

[Cleita]

121. Stories like yours show just how broken the system is.

I wonder if there is anyway for self-employed and small business owners like yourself to form a non-profit cooperative to self-insure yourselves as a group. It might be worth getting together with others in your circumstances. You might be able to pool your resources that you are now spending on insurance to build up a fund of some sort.

[Sgent]

125. I've known very few primary care physicians

To refuse payments or payment in kind (wash car, etc) for the truley destitute. Once your in the system, they can often direct you to specialists or hospitals that will work with you.

That being said, most will require at least 50% payment.

One additional hint -- NEGOTIATE. I gaurentee you that probably 90% of doctors will cut their fees if you pay cash/check (not credit cards) that day. Point out that they don't have to pay insurance filing fees, etc. Also, there is a large amount of leverage in most testing, so they might have some leeway to cut you a break with a sufficient sob story.

Many practices now have a formal policy of giving a 10-25% discount to patients that pay cash on the day of service.

[latebloomer]

141. I'm with you!

Self-employed too and just got notice that my monthly premium for our family of 4 is rising from $1240 monthly to $1440. Similar rise last year. Apparently there is absolutely no regulation and the insurance cos can do whatever the f$*k they want. :mad:

[Bouncy Ball]

147. Oh my GOD.

HOW do you pay premiums like that? I mean, don't they eat up most of what you make?????

That is just fucking ridiculous.

[Vinca]

158. You don't and the insurance companies won't budge an inch.

I asked if they would change the policy to a $10,000 deductible, which I assumed would reduce the cost considerably, but they refused. Thanks for all your suggestions, but they've already been tried. A big problem is that each state has an insurance commission with different standards and different rules. In my state - New Hampshire - there are only 4 or 5 companies licensed to sell policies. My policy was the cheapest available. The group policy, through another carrier, provided more, but was much more expensive. We have already negotiated fees with doctors because we've been living with such a high deductible. We buy drugs from Canada at half price. But it's a constant worry that you might walk out the back door, slip and break a hip and have to mortgage every dime of equity in the house for treatment . . . or worse. I was working on the taxes and last year, with the deductible and insurance premiums, we coughed up about $16,000 in cash for health care. No wonder we can't save for retirement. This is nuts. (Sorry to rant.)

[Gusto md]

123. My last visit to the doctors cost me $5

And I hesitated in paying that (in Australia).

From reading these posts, I am starting to get an understanding of how much your healthcare system is in trouble. So in the US you pay hundreds of dollars a month for insurance, which doesn't even cover everything? Am I reading this correctly?

I 'm not sure how much a year I pay for Medicare (our health system). It's something between $200-400 a year, which come out of your tax so you don't even miss it. And I have never payed more than $20 at a time for any medical consultation or proceedure.... in my life. I only know of one person who has helath insurance, which cost them like $10 a week. He only joined up because they give you money to spend on sports gear and fitness....!

[Cleita]

128. My experience was that not only did I pay for a monthly

premium of $200 a month, with a $3,000 deductible per year, after that they only paid 80% of what they approved of as a legitimate medical expense. Also, on my $3,000 deductible, it was based again on what they approved of, so my actual medical expenses were often twice of what the approved amount was. Of course since my medical expenses up until now have been routine, I never made the deductible each year, so basically I paid the insurance company money and then I paid for my medical expenses.

I only kept the policy in case of catastrophic illness. I have recently found out that if that catastrophic illness had occurred my premium would have skyrocketed or they even could have refused to renew the insurance once my enrollment period was over. Thank god I am going on Medicare next month, but Bush is trying to eliminate that too.

[Gusto md]

133. So let me get this right......

You pay insurance to be covered for medical incidents, and when the medical bills come in, you pay for them too...??

So your insurance is used in case of a major emergency? Don't you have public hospitals that are funded by the government? Let's just say I was walking down the street and broke my leg (I don't have any insurance of any kind), I could walk (well, hop!) into a public hospital and get it fixed.... $0 outlay. If my spleen was ruptured, same situation, same cost.... So there is no hospital system like that in the US?

I guess, money for wars have to come from somewhere....

[Cleita]

134. There are County hospitals for that purpose.

They are mostly underfunded and sometimes it takes months to get routine care. If you are picked up by an ambulance and taken to the hospital they have to care for you, but if you don't have some kind of coverage they can legally send bill collectors after you and take your wages and property. In my county the county hospital closed it's doors because they couldn't afford to keep them open so we are at the mercy of the private hospitals who can refuse you if you non-emergency care if you can't pay.

Also, there is a medicaid program if you have no assets to speak of. Otherwise you have to spend down your assets and savings before it kicks in, but Bush has cut funding for this program just recently.

[Gusto md]

135. What can I say.....

That is fucked up.....

But as long as there is $50 mill for an inauguration, who gives a shit that people are dying because the can't afford to pay for basic human right of medical help.

[Cleita]

137. Our system has been corrupted. Our tax money should be

used to take care of the needs of our citizens, but apparently our corrupt politicians from both parties are taking care of the needs of the mega-corporations who prop them up. I am pretty disgusted with the whole thing. And now with the rise of the Nazis in our country who have no problem torturing, killing and waging war for no good reason, I find these times especially appalling and frightening.

[Gusto md]

138. Is there any sign that things are going to change in healthcare?

Or is the outlook a rather grim forecast?

[Cleita]

139. It seems to have gotten worse each year.

If we can't get the for profit health care industry out of the business, we will never be able to get a system in here that's similar to the Canadian system. As long as the neo-cons keep stealing elections and political power, I don't really have much hope. There will always be the affluent who get the best of care and the health care providers who take care of them, but the rest of us won't get much access to quality health care.

[Gusto md]

140. I actually thought of moving to the US 7 or 8 years ago....

when Clinton was in power... the US was seen a leader who actually cared more about people than the almighty dollar.

Now, I would even think about it.... except to slap the *chimperor* in the face with my glove, and challenge him to a duel.

[Cleita]

142. There are better places than here right now.

If we ever rid ourselves of these corporate dragons, then maybe it will be a good place to live again.

[Bouncy Ball]

150. Dear God don't move here.

If I lived in Australia or Europe or Canada, I'm not sure I'd even VISIT the US.

That's kinda sad to say, too.

:-(

[davsand]

144. Are those "private hospitals" incorporated as non-profits?

If they are (and roughly 85% of US hospitals are) then they probably get tax exemptions. IF they are getting tax exemptions (either Federal or State/Local ones) then they have an obligation to provide charity care to people who are "medically indigent" (meaning poverty level without insurance.)

In the last year, many hospitals have become aware of this requirement because of what has been happening here in Illinois. Here is an article from California discussing the issue of charity care and billing collections practices used by non-profit hospitals.

http://www.californiahealthline.org/index.cfm?action=dspItem&itemid=103986

Wall Street Journal Looks at One Not-for-Profit Hospital's Loss of Tax-Exempt Status

June 29, 2004

The Wall Street Journal on Tuesday examined Provena Covenant Medical Center's "fight to regain its local property-tax exemption amid questions about financial treatment of the uninsured, including aggressive debt-collection tactics." In February, the Illinois Department of Revenue revoked the property tax-exempt status of the not-for-profit hospital in Urbana, Ill., because local authorities determined it was not a charitable institution. The decision was made after the Champaign County Board of Review, a panel that oversees property-tax assessments, documented that the hospital had filed lawsuits and used other debt-collection tactics to pressure patients to pay their medical bills. Since February, Provena has begun to pay local property taxes, including $1.1 million for 2002 and $700,000 toward a total of $1.4 million for 2003. Provena's 2004 assessment is expected soon.

Changes

Provena has launched a series of changes to regain its reputation and demonstrate to officials that it is entitled to tax-exempt status, including increasing no-cost and discounted services by 40% since 2003, avoiding undertaking lawsuits and other bill-collection techniques and using newspaper ads and signs in the hospital to inform patients about available financial help. However, "those steps ... may not be enough to satisfy demands of authorities," the Journal reports. According to the Journal, Stan Jenkins, a member of the Champaign County Board of Review, said that despite the amount the hospital spends on charity care, it still will not meet Illinois Property Tax Code terms, which say that a not-for-profit entity must be used "exclusively" for charitable purposes.

I was one of those board members and so far our ruling still stands.

Check YOUR local laws and get loud about what you expect from your local hospitals. The only way we are going to see change is if we (the consumers) force it.


Laura

[Cleita]

153. Nope, they are Tenet hospitals. One was recently

taken over by Catholics as a non-profit.

[davsand]

154. Tenet!! They have class actions on file right now by the uninsured.

They charge uninsured folks more than people with health insurance:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1088699770823

Plaintiffs Bar Checks Into Hospitals
Brenda Sandburg
The Recorder
07-06-2004


The plaintiffs bar has found a new target: nonprofit hospitals.

In the past two weeks, plaintiffs firms have filed 19 class actions against not-for-profit hospitals, claiming they are charging uninsured patients as much as 300 percent more than they charge their insured patients.

Lieff, Cabraser, Heimann & Bernstein and the Scruggs Law Firm filed the most recent suit Wednesday against Sutter Health. The complaint, filed in the Northern District of California, alleges that Sutter is breaching its obligation to provide charitable health care to uninsured patients in return for substantial tax exemptions.

"While Sutter gives private insurance companies and governmental third-party payors like Medicare and Medicaid significant discounts from the gross or 'sticker' price ... it charges its uninsured patients 100 percent of the full sticker price," the suit states.

Lieff, Cabraser partner Kelly Dermody said the pricing discrepancy came to the forefront when uninsured patients being pursued for unpaid legal bills sought legal counsel...

People ARE taking action to fight the pirates who run hospitals. It's about time too--while the hospital CEOs rape poor people with the chargemaster billing process, the uninsured sit at home and weigh the cost of health care against how likely they think they are to die. Literally, people are DYING because they are afraid of being in debt to the ones charged with saving their lives.

We just lost an old friend between the holidays because he had no insurance and did not seek care. He died in the ER waiting room after suffering for DAYS. What makes this a bitter pill is the realization that ALL of our tax monies (both Federal and local/State) go to help subsidize this shit we call a health care system.

If you want to get REALLY sick, take a look at what they pay those "non-profit" CEOs in the hospitals. These guys get performance bonuses based on profitability. They make more money by screwing more poor people...

Stand up and fight.


Laura

[Bouncy Ball]

149. Yep county hospitals are in trouble here, too

and have been for quite some time.

[Bouncy Ball]

148. At my husband's company

the last health care provider they used dropped them because two of the employees, in the last ten years, got cancer and had cancer treatment. One of them died, one is in remission.

So because of that, they dropped the whole company.

So they had to go to United Healthcare, and because they aren't a great big company (my husband's employer) they don't get a good deal at all. His employer is still trying to pay for most of the monthly premium for the employees but it's really hard. They have stopped hiring and are even looking at cutting a few positions. And doctor's visits are no longer covered under co-pay but under the deductible, which means we pay full price until we hit $3000 per year.

It sucks, but I know people who have it worse.

The school district I work for is really struggling. They pay the premiums for the employee only. If you want to cover your family, it is $600 a month (spouse and children).

[mtnester]

126. It gets worse, I was comparing the entire list of our employees

insurance costs. Now I understand that most health insurance is tiered based on age, which to me is barely legal, if at all. However, I noticed another nasty trend...I looked at the three women who are 38, 40 and 44. We are all paying more than $100 per month more for health insurance than our male counterparts, same age. As a matter of fact, we pay more than male counterparts that are more than 10-15 years older than we are. None of us are smokers, non of us have any previous "history." This is all for our individual insurance, not what we pay for our dependents.

Can I tell you how pissed I was? Can I prove it is discrimination? Probably not. Do I know it is? You betcha.

[Bouncy Ball]

151. Wow.

What else can you do? Bring it to the attention of your employer? Do you think they know?

[superconnected]

127. What if he was a democrat

I feel the same way you do for him.

Poor guy.

Actually I have feelings for most humans and their plights regardless of religious/non-religious and political views.

[Bouncy Ball]

152. You know, it's funny

I've been hating on repukes and I still feel the same way, but at that moment, there was so much genuine pain on his face and seeing those great big fat tears welling up in his eyes, and I could see he was blue collar, probably works his ass off providing for his family, I honestly didn't give a shit what political party he belonged to, if any.

And I was glad I felt that way. I haven't felt that way in a long time. Maybe I'm getting my humanity back, dammit. But it isn't right, no matter what party he belongs to. We ALL deserve better than this shit.

If everyday republicans and everyday Democrats could come together and join up with sympathetic elected repubs and Dems, and DEMAND a change all across the country, maybe it would happen.

But it would require us putting aside every other issue. Still, I think it would be worth it just to get universal healthcare.

[Lady Effingbroke]

132. Just another example of how broken America is.

Someone get a plunger and force this turd down the toilet and into the sewer of history.

Canada, please invade!

A six-lane-wide carpet of rose petals shall be strewn from the northern border to the Gulf of Mexico.

[Sgent]

156. It is discrimination

It is not considered illegal discrimination in most (all?) states.

In Mississippi, where pricing is still regulated, it is allowed because the insurance companies have shown to the satisfaction of the insurance commissioner that women use more healthcare than men from ages 20-45 or so (pregnancy, annual exams, etc).

[American liberal]

155. I had a conversation with a cafeteria cashier the other day

She often hums folk tunes from her home in, I believe, Eastern Europe. Pleasant lady. Well, we were talking about the company I am currently temping for. When I asked her how long she'd been with the food vendor, she explained that she took the job a few years ago for the insurance. You see, she said, she and her husband owned two successful businesses, but he was sick and needed to take a lot of medications. She said they could no longer afford the insurance premiums through their businesses, so she had to take the cashier's job to be able to pay for her husband's medications through the current insurance plan. Although she didn't come right out and say it, it was obvious her family's lifestyle has become extremely cramped in the last few years.

[Nadienne]

157. And if you do get sick, and work somewhere that requires

a doctor's notice if you call in sick for more than three days in a row...

What then? Go to work sick? Or go to the doctor, whether you can afford it or not?

[SoCalDem]

160. Depends on how much you make per day

If your take home for those 3 days is less than a doctor's & prescription cost,and you have no medical insurance, you could write your own note:


Dear Boss,

Please consider this my "absence note". Due to the fact that a doctor's visit and prescription would run me $300.00, and my take-home pay for the 3 days' work would net me $200.00, I could not afford the doctor's visit. By staying home, I spared YOU the risk of more sick employees, and my body healed itself.

If you are in need of more verification of my illness, I have saved a bucket of vomit, and a trash bag of mucous-filled Kleenex.

Sincerely,

Your ever-diligent employee