Anti-Americanism.....from foreign posters, seconded by Americans.

[TheBigGuy]

I guess I do differ with the vast majority of the DU community as I don't take to kindly to criticism of the USA from foreign posters.

In one sense I think of all the critics of US policy they are the ones that should be paid attention to the most as they offer a fresh way of looking at the USA, without the myopia that seems to be endemic to a large, realitvely insular country such as ours.

Yet I do also find it suspect. There is often this undercurrent of self-righteousness and fingerpointing from foreign critics that sets me on edge, and also an element of hypocracsy, as if foreign states don't have their own flaws or dark history...the big bad US vs the rest of the world, as if the rest of the world is so innocent.

Also, on a board that attracts a large left wing poster community, I also suspect a hidden agenda, too.

Since the USA (under both Republican and Democratic administrations) is the great exponent of capitalism and free markets I suspect alot of anti-American crticism is driven by a left wing agenda hostile to capitalism and the market economy, and to the US as the great global advocate of this economic philosphy. Also the more marxist side of this anti-market ideology would be hostile to patriotism and nationalism as they see national loyalty as an enemy of their class-based way of looking at society and the world.

One of the features of anti-Americanism is also the disclaimer that the interlocutor is "not against America, or the American people" (or some similar formulation) usually as a preface to some indictment or critique of the USA.

I'd put more value on these disclaimers if the interlocutor would have said some things positive about the USA, its people, culture, orsociety, prior to and independent of his or her critique. As it is this seems just rhetorical cover for a more basic anti-American bias.

So that is my take on anti-Americanism as I see it.

[Maple]

1. Well the US govt

feels quite free to criticize all those 'foreign countries' regularly...and in some pretty drastic terms. We just return the favor occasionally.

No hidden agenda I'm afraid.

PS...the only Marxists on this board are American ones.

Are you sure YOU are on the right site?? This is a left-wing site.

On edit. Sp.

[TheBigGuy]

4. you know, the the title says Democratic Underground

not "Left Wing Underground".

...so if I m a member of the Democratic Party I think I am welcome here.

[Maple]

12. I didn't say you weren't

but the Dem party is considered...by themselves I might add...left-wing.

And this isn't the 'establishment' site, it's the 'underground'

Which tends to be a little more radical.

Socialist International and Marxist stuff is posted here regularly.

You make it sound like the US invented capitalism, or operates under pure capitalism, neither of which is true.

I, personally, am not 'leftwing' but there are a lot of good folks here, interesting conversation, and plenty of world news.

[TheBigGuy]

15. Yeah you are probably right...

....more on the "underground" side than I realize, sometimes.

[Maple]

29. Well my country

has had considerable experience with the underground railway that brought many of your slaves here to freedom.

And many of your Viet Nam draft refugees to a peaceful nation.

So I kinda like the name.

It suggests the kind of Americans I want to know.

[ParanoidPat]

6. That last question is a really good one....

....:evilgrin: A :toast: to DutchDemocrat!

[ProudGerman]

2. What is anti-americanism?

Tell me what you think anti-americanism is, then I can post a decent rebuttal.

So far, I get the impression that foreigners are not allowed to say anything negative about America unless they pad America's ego first. Like for instance:

I love American rock music, its the greatest. Its a shame that they are bombing {insert 3rd world country here}, I really don't think its justified.

I really don't think that is the case you are making, I really hope so. Because that is ridiculous, I have to say.

[Terwilliger]

10. I think TheBigGuy is anti-American

[yowzayowzayowza]

51. ... or a lawyer wannabe...

...not enough disclaimers fer 'em.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

93. a bit harsh, but right - what bigguy is suggesting is nationalism

Nationalism is following and believing your government without question.

ALWAYS ALWAYS question those in power.

[laura888]

94. a bit harsh, but right - what bigguy is suggesting is nationalism

Nationalism is following and believing your government without question.

ALWAYS ALWAYS question those in power.

[Jacobin]

5. A discussion thread fit for another unnamed site

This is pure bullshit.

[roughsatori]

7. What is the "hidden agenda" you "suspect" these "foreign critics" of?

[Sterling]

14. It seems that just because you are gay

Does not mean you can't be a xenophobe.

Tolerance anyone?

[TheBigGuy]

16. I dont see where you get the xenophobia thing.

....I just get pissed off at the constant criticsm of the USA. Im still somewhat of a patriot and actually like this country.

[Eloriel]

143. Whoa, buddy

I'm a patriot too. I love my country fiercely.

Neither of those have ANYthing to do with my rather strong criticism of my country. Nor is that criticism "anti-American." In fact, I rather think it's as pro-American as it gets. We were BORN of dissent; it's our middle name. It was patriotic then, it's patriotic now.

If I didn't love my country, I wouldn't give a fig about when it fails so miserably of living up to its promise, its ideals, its own precious standards of freedom and equality and opportunity, and fairness.

No, I wouldn't care at all. I love my country enough to want to see it BETTER, DO better.

Don't you dare call me unpatriotic or un-American.

Eloriel

[Blue_Chill]

46. xenophobe? The guy is not asking for an end to immigration

he just doesn't like people shitting on his country. Big Difference, one that I think you know but made your accusation anyway.

[scarletwoman]

62. You apparently don't know what "xenophobe" actually means

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=91846

xenophobe noun
a person who strongly dislikes or fears foreigners, their customs, their religions, etc.

While a xenophobe may be against immigration, that particular stance is by no means the sole defining characteristic of xenophobia.

sw

[TheBigGuy]

66. Well, you cant call me a xenphobe then...

....as I dont have those feelings towards foreigners as a class.

[Blue_Chill]

123. Actually I do know what it means

and I know that it is a disease in Europe that shows itself in their hatred of perminent immigration. I also know nothing this person has said makes him a xenophobe. So even though you looked it up you still missed the point.

[scarletwoman]

130. It's ALSO a rather widespread disease in the U.S.

that shows itself in distrust, disrespect, disregard, and mockery of people, cultures, and ideas from outside the U.S. U.S. citizens are the LEAST travelled "First World" people, and are generally far less informed about the rest about of the world than the rest of the world is about the U.S.

In any case, it was not I that used the term "xenophobe" in this thread. I just thought your bringing up "immigration" as a counter-argument was disingenuous and non sequitor.

sw

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. Giving the U.S. a break

Travel is easier for those in many nations. Europeans travel from nation to nation like we travel from state to state. Proximity does help.

[Sterling]

151. Give us a break

from the freedom fry crowd.

[Terwilliger]

8. oh chill out

if you dont like it, maybe you could rescind the first amendment

[TheBigGuy]

9. Hey, its a free country

we can state our opinion, as long as we abide by the board rules, I guess.

[Terwilliger]

13. yes, but foreign posters apparently cannot

:shrug:

[TheBigGuy]

17. Well no ones stopping them

as far as I can tell.

[ParanoidPat]

18. I guess you forgot about your posts on.....

....this thread! :evilgrin:

[TheBigGuy]

23. Well, this thread is based on that thread.

And thats me being critical of what I precieve to be anti-americanism.

Thats not saying i want to actually censor these posters, or that i want DU to censor these posters.

[ima_sinnic]

35. but you sure do want to make them feel unwelcome

--very "progressive" and "enlightened" of you.

[TheBigGuy]

38. and your point is?

Id figure if the moderators dont like my posts or feel them inappropriate they will be removed.

And no I dont like posts or posters that I feel are anti-American.

[scarletwoman]

49. You love to throw that term around: "Anti-American" -- now DEFINE it!

It's a term dearly loved by rightwingers, freepers, McCarthyites, and neo-fascists, so why are YOU using it?

I find it rather astounding that ANYONE on a progressive board would even THINK in terms of "anti-Americanism", much less post such horseshit without embarassment.

sw

[TheBigGuy]

59. Sure,

I guess its like that USSC judges comment on pornography...I know it when I see it.

But I see it as a relentless and continuous criticism of various aspects of the USA....policy, culture, people, society.

[Terwilliger]

68. guess what?

Bush said "I know terra-ists when I see em"

Just as legitimate

[scarletwoman]

75. So, the USA is so sacrosanct that it merits no criticism?

If a country's "policy, culture, people, society" are wrongheaded, and creating havoc and destruction around the planet, why SHOULDN'T these activities be subject to "relentless" criticism?

There is NO place on this entire planet that is not impacted by the activities of this country. To paraphrase Arundhati Roy: people in other countries may not be citizens of this country, but they most certainly are subjects of the U.S. EMPIRE!

sw

[TheBigGuy]

77. so youre anti-American.

thanks for being upfront about that.

[scarletwoman]

81. Hah! I'm PRO-HUMANITY, and PRO-EARTH, and PRO-TRUTH

So if that makes me "anti-American", what does that say about America?

sw

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

95. ROFLMAO!

Go ahead, say it! You KNOW you want to! Go ahead, trot out the good ol' "commie" label.

You are heading into complete absurdity here.

And FYI, the "scarlet" in my name is an esoteric reference in honor of Vajrayogini. Perhaps you ought to rein in your assumptions before you post even MORE ridiculous tripe.

sw

[Terwilliger]

101. you need to see a lot more of the negative

before scarlet should take your advice...or anyone else for that matter

[ima_sinnic]

102. "red" as in "communist"???

I have decided to put someone on Ignore for the very first time. I believe my blood pressure will go way down if I am spared the jingoistic freeper talking points.

[JVS]

106. Come on!

As God is my witness, I'll bring American imperialism to its knees!

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

57. yeah, rah rah and all that

to everybody else in the world outside of certain latitudes and longitudes: do not under any condition express the least displeasure with the policies of BushCo!! Your opinion does not count!! You are not allowed to be offended by blatant bloodthirsty warmongering greedheads who are destroying the planet!!

Only people who reside (only US-born citizens? what about naturalized citizens? what about legal permanent residents?) within certain human-defined borders may voice negative opinions about BushCo!

You VILL cooperate!

[Terwilliger]

21. maybe you're simply insecure about America?

its actually very weak and outside criticism really chafes?

If America is so great, why should you be concerned about outside (or inside) criticism?

[TheBigGuy]

26. hmm good question.

I think maybe because the crticism is maybe excessive.

[Terwilliger]

30. maybe it isn't strong enough

more importantly, maybe it's right on target

[eagler]

24. I think that you just negated your own argument.

If foreigners can't criticize the US, then how can we do the same to another country?

[TheBigGuy]

27. Well, I dont think I should!

If i would come to, say, an Australian or English version of DU I dont think I would be critical as I would sort of see myself learning about the politics of the place....I might offer observations, ,but not launch into some big critique of that countrys policy. Id be more humble about that.

[Sterling]

11. Damn I was hoping no one would take the bait.

This is a sad little thread. Embarrassing to the board in general.

[Maple]

19. Well he has

more posts than I do so I assumed he wasn't a disruptor.

[Jacobin]

28. a problematic assumption

[TheBigGuy]

32. Are you implying im a disruptor

becuase you dont like my posts?

[Melinda]

37. Never assume :-(

The original poster is fairly new to this board, having just come to DU almost immediately prior to the transition. He was more laid back when new, but grows increasingly more provocative, fwiw. He has an agenda, and it's not one shared by liberals or even more moderate democrats, IMO.

[TheBigGuy]

39. Actually I have been on this board since last June

and have posted under two other names before changing to this one. I think you are being a bit too suspicious just because on this issue I maybe more conservative than the rest of the DU poster community.

[Melinda]

53. last June = 2 months ago = just prior to transition

I'm not suspicious - I'm observant and I've observed you since your arrival. And based upon my observations, the conclusion was easy. And anyone with a star can research the obvious and arrive at their own conclusions too. It's easy to ascertain what you are about - and you are not about DU.

[TheBigGuy]

56. June of 2002, not 2003.

The transition to the new software was this year, not last year.

If im "not about DU" what exactly are you implying I am about?

[Frances]

20. Turn about is fair play

I criticize the governments of other countries, so why shouldn't people from other countries have the right to criticize my country?

Maybe it's because I have lived in the South, in the Northeast, in the mid-Atlantic, and on the West Coast, but I realize that different regions have different perspectives. And that's OK with me. I think it's the same with different countries.

[Flying_Pig]

22. This thread sucks...

You've been watching too many John Wayne movies. This type of thinking is dominate in freeperland, and it's also what is causing the destruction of our nation. Nationalistic horseshit. The failure of this nation to look in the mirror, and truly take a critical look at its policies, both international, and domestic, is breeding contempt.

on edit: sp

[Blue_Chill]

41. You are confusing nationalism with patriotism

I don't like the jerks on this forum rooting for Iraqis to win a war and supporting the acts of terrorism as well deserved. I don't apologize for the US when it's wrong but I'm sorry if you hate the US so much that you root for it to lose you shouldn't be here.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

120. Nobody put words in your mouth champ

I meant what I said *YOU* are confusing patriotism, what goes on at times here, with nationalism that goes on in freeperland.

[Flying_Pig]

125. Listen "champ", it is not I who is " confused".

At more than a half-century old, I know exactly what I said, and what I meant. Gotta problem with that, or do you want to tell me how "confused" I am again??

[Clete]

25. Bawawawa.

They are criticizing Bush and the gangsters that have taken over our country, not America. Not only that, President Clinton was well loved all over the world. Just because the PNAC and their propagandizing media whores made him look like an ass to Americans, the Europeans knew he was a diamond that could have used some polishing but a gem none the less. Now we have cracked glass for leadership and if they want to bash away it's okay with me.

[TheBigGuy]

31. Maybe.

"hey are criticizing Bush and the gangsters that have taken over our country, not America. "

This is a hypothetical, but I wonder what we would have seen here when Clinton bombed Serbia and went inot Kosovo, or did those missle strikes against Afghanistan and Sudan?

[Clete]

92. If you want any answers. Make some sense.

Apparently it didn't make Clinton the most hated person in the world, did it? And Clinton didn't do it alone.

[mitchtv]

33. thanks clete and the rest.

nothing compares to the trashing that our European allies have gotten from this gang of theives

[rooboy]

34. Britney Spears expressed a similar sentiment just the other day!!!

Instead of being a bigot, make a case and defend it. Your argument is no better than "the liberals are destroying America" or "He's my president, how dare you accuse him of being a liar"

Grow up.

[TheBigGuy]

36. She did?

And Im not even a fan.

Well..seems like im not alone then in my impressions.

...maybe you can do better than calling people bigots.

[Blue_Chill]

40. There are many anti-american posters here

I mean let's not fuck around here, there were posters rooting for Saddam to win the Iraqi war, and call those that blew up the UN freedom fighters. These people are very much anti-american, and they should be called exactly that.

[Terwilliger]

43. never expected anything less from you

[Blue_Chill]

47. Good. I'm glad I didn't surprise you.

Now tell us about how you fear for the saftey of those poor freedom fighters in Iraq.

[Terwilliger]

54. I fear for the collapse of humanity

that people like you foster

[TheBigGuy]

61. sort of a cheap shot.

I really dont see how patriotism leads to collapse of humanity.

Love of ones country and homeland coudl be a positive thing, as long as it doesnt devolve into chauvinism.

[Terwilliger]

67. which it has in your case

perpetuation of the state is the dissolution of humanity, because the state is not a person, it's a thing

[IranianDemocrat]

69. 1st Year Philosophy major eh?

lol

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheBigGuy]

80. thats your opinion...

...and you are confusing state with homeland.

[Terwilliger]

107. sir...state is state...if you call it a homeland and put a border on it...

it's a state

and what the fuck is "homeland"

Why dont we treat the planet as the "homeland" then we wont have to worry about silly borders!

[TheBigGuy]

109. i see this is a foreign concept to you.

so lets drop it.

[Terwilliger]

110. I see...so your argument is so weak you just have to drop it?

classss-y! :eyes:

[TheBigGuy]

111. i dont see whats to argue.

You dont believe in or have any feeling for patriotism. Its a foreign concept and one you are hostile to. So what is there to discuss?

[Terwilliger]

138. I love America

that's why it must be destroyed

[Blue_Chill]

119. People like me? What you don't like Hispanics?

pffft forget you then.

[Terwilliger]

139. you're Hispanic?

I was just speaking of your god-pod notions of fealty to god, and country, and flag....

HEY! You know, George W. Bush is a product of our system of laws. Are you a traitor for not supporting him?

[Blue_Chill]

157. god pod? lol

So sorry I can't live in your fantasy land where socialism works and there are no borders.

Pass the pipe.

[eagler]

44. Criticism and condemnation are two different things.

nt

[Blue_Chill]

48. I know and I see both on this board all the time

I even see flat out support for those trying to blow buildings up.

[IndianaGreen]

45. And people that support Bush's policies should be called, what?

Bring the troops home NOW! End the Occupation NOW!

[Blue_Chill]

50. I agre with you IG

Bring them Home and let the UN take over. And those that support Bush are what they are you don't need me to tell you.

[alcuno]

70. Bush Loyalists?

That's what is wrong with the administration's argument. It fails to address nationalism.

[ParanoidPat]

79. Got a link to them chill boy?

:evilgrin: Let's have a look!

[IndianaGreen]

42. Where is that dog, Jingo?

Bark, bark! Bark, bark!

"Anti-Americanism"? Isn't that a libel the rightwing loves to lob at liberals, progressives, and particularly antiwar protesters?

SHAME ON YOU!

[TheBigGuy]

52. I call 'em as I see 'em

To be truthfull I am not really all that big a fan of US foreign policy. But I am not relentlessly negative about the US either.

There is a bid difference between dissent and anti-Americanism. Dissent can be an expression of anti-Americanim but isn't necessarily that in and of itself.

[IndianaGreen]

60. This sounds too much like Faux News

and like Pat Buchanan's "We believe in America First!" when he announced for President in 2000.

There is a bid difference between dissent and anti-Americanism. Dissent can be an expression of anti-Americanim but isn't necessarily that in and of itself.

I am sorry, BG, but the First Amendment does not leave room for subjective interpretation of what constitutes "dissent" and whatever the fuck you meant by "anti-Americanism."

Long live the First Amendment!

[TheBigGuy]

64. Whos talking about the first amemdement?

Are you implying that there is some sort of litmus test on dissent?

The 1st protects all dissent, no matter what motivates it. What I was getting at was there are different kinds of motivation...anti-americanism can be one motivation of many when it comes to dissent. The argument is whether or not the dissent is legtimate, or excessive, or what motivates it.

Not whether or not dissent, in and of itself, should be prohibited. No one is saying that here.

[IndianaGreen]

78. "Anti-Americanism" is the new rallying cry by the rightwing

to stiffle dissent and persecute those they hate.

Back in the 1950s, it was called "un-American."

McCarthyism by any other name.

[TheBigGuy]

84. Yeah, well, ok,....

....I am speaking for myself on this thread.

I can see what you mean about this being used as a rhetorical device by the right, but on this thread I am using the term more in reaction against what I perceive as excessive critiscms of the US and negation of what is good about this country. ..this is my own take on it, not a right wing take on it.

[IndianaGreen]

87. Then say so, and be more careful on how you use language!

You seem to be ignoring the differences between American policies, and American deeds and misdeeds in pursuit of policies, and a generalized hatred of America, like the one Hamas espouses against Israel.

They are not all the same!

[alcuno]

55. We don't get out of this country much.

It's amazing how truly ignorant we are about people in the rest of the world; very few of us have passports and we see few stories about the rest of the world in our media. I think that anti-Americanism is often directed at our ignorance. To deny that it exists simply reinforces that impression of us.

[TheBigGuy]

58. True.

I notice it just reading the UK press, like the Economist, or websites like the BBC and Gaurdian.

[toddzilla]

72. well

we use the world as our sweatshop, we create ghettos to exploit them, nationalism is stupid. most of the criticisms of our governments actions lately are justifiable. when was the last time we sent soldiers abroad and did some good?



we are all people, who gives a shit where we live?

[ima_sinnic]

63. so I guess you were one of those people who didn't say/do anything

when South Africa had apartheid?
when El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua had death squads?
etc.
(tired of this hatriotic crap thread)

[H_NeverAgain]

65. Sorry, but...

Honestly, I don't understand you. As I don't believe that you're a hidden freeper, I don't see why you are so susceptible about foreign criticism.

You're clearly overreacting (at least these last 2 day) about comment from foreigners.
Once again, I've no problem with patriotism. I love my country myself. And I've no more problems with free enterprise (actually I favour it), even if I'm a supporter of solidarity too. But by rejecting systemically all criticisms from foreigner, you appear as supporting the foreign policy of your government. Honestly, you can't hardly deny that the present policy of USA is highly criticisable. And as the action of USA interfere in the life of everyone worldwide, you can't refuse to foreigners the right to claim their disapprobation.

Personally, I've the feeling that it's your government that is anti-American. If you consider your present relation with other countries and the state of your finance, it's close from betrayal. But you only complain about the fact that foreigners dare to criticize your country. It's the fact of supporting such policy that seems to me unpatriotic.

Anyway, if you don't like criticism, act to not be criticized. Else you can also avoid interfering in the life of other. It's your choice.

BTW, and if you missed it, I'm from Japan. Just a more damn foreigner :-)

[TheBigGuy]

74. really it was only one foreigner that i was responding too

...that dutch fellow.

I don't think one can or should systematically reject all foreign critiques of US policy either. Or react in a xenophobic fashion to foreign policy disagreements with other countrys (such as the US/Germany disagreement to go to war w. Iraq). I think the critiques need to be weighed, both the source, the context, and in terms of national interest and the history of the two countrys.

[H_NeverAgain]

115. I think to these posts too...

And from an external point of view, you overreacted. Maybe his posts were a little bit direct, but they were argued. And then your replies seemed maybe too rough. "Violent action provokes violent reaction." :-) But as you have created a new thread about foreigners and anti-Americanism, I've tried to widen the debate.

It's not personal issue, but I find that you're quick to blame foreigners but don't put more attention on the problem itself. It's an easy and dangerous way to put the blame on other before to have looking for his own responsibility, and it rarely help to solve problem.

Anyway, it doesn't answer to the matter. As I don't think that interference it's a good thing, I agree that one should be cautious before comment internal policy. But when one comes to foreign policy, he can deny to other the right to give their opinions.

Anti-Americanism is not the product of envy, as some like pretend, but a reaction of American foreign policy. Some time it's unjustified, but some times it's a very legitimate reaction.

Once again if you don't like that foreigners complain about USA, fix the problem in USA. It will always have criticisms, but at least they could be rejected and ignored as unjustified.

[Sterling]

124. problem in USA?

What problem? Everything here is just fine. Heh you're not from around here are you? Maybe you should just keep your mouth shut and let us murikans take care of things. I can't believe some one not from the US would have the nerve to come on this board and point out who fucked up we are.

Honestly if DU is going to put up with this bogotry I won't be donating ever again.

The mod that let this thread go should be removed.

[H_NeverAgain]

132. I found this thread interesting,

But frightening.

As a foreigner, I'm not at all offended by the posts of TheBigGuy.
In a way, I can understand his feeling, and actually I've some respect for him.
But it's very frightening for the future. If even democrats fall in nationalism (I'm inclined to think that when patriotism becomes deaf to criticisms it becomes nationalism), it doesn't sound good for the future election in USA.
I fear that (and to be honest since a long time), even if the US government have an astonishing lack of understanding of the world, it's very efficient to play with the weakness of American people. Sad day for the USA in fact.

Farewell companions, but I've few hopes that USA can become back a great nation...

[RichM]

71. It's their world, too. What the US does affects them as well as us, so

they have every right to express their opinions.

Don't you think global warming affects Europeans? Don't you think practically EVERY major US policy move affects people elsewhere? Why should they have to come humbly with hat in hand, politely sucking up to Big America (saying "some things positive about the USA"), before they're allowed to express their opinions?

Your position here is so ridiculous I'm surprised you're willing to express it publicly. You're saying that someone's right to criticize US policy depends NOT on whether the criticism is valid, but on where the critic lives. What an arrogant crock of bleep. It's the RIGHTNESS of the criticism that matters, not the nation of origin.

When the US rightwing started bashing the French just because they wouldn't go along with the Iraq invasion, that was disgusting & reactionary. Though the analogy is not perfect, the position you're taking here is not very different.

There's no such thing as "anti-Americanism," BTW. That's another bit of rightwing ideology that's somehow penetrated your brain.

[arcos]

76. I agree... n/t

[arcos]

73. Do you have ANY idea how much US policies affect the rest of the world?

You obviously don't. Whatever happens in the US has a profound effect in most other countries, especially here in the Western hemisphere.

Gay rights movements are now present in most countries of Latin America. Do you think that would have been possible without huge victories in the US? Probably, but it would have taken a few more decades.

Free trade? Right now they are discussing a free trade agreement with Central America. The US is trying to impose the privatization of government owned companies in telecommunications and electricity. Here in my country (Costa Rica), the government is the owner of the Costa Rican Institute of Electricity, which provides electricity, phone service and Internet service to the whole country. It has the monopoly, and because of it, we have very inexpensive services with a decent quality. Past right wing governments have cut funding and because of those cuts the services started to deteriorate, but they are getting better now.

A Democratic administration would not push so hard on this matters, trying to impose their will. I am not against globalization or free trade, but it should be fair. And as workers in the US may benefit by more restrictive free trade, workers in Costa Rica and other Central American countries will too.

I respect the US as a country, as a democracy. I respect it's citizen, but I disagree a lot with it's government. I think that as a citizen of the world, I have the right to think that.

[sweetheart]

83. the world of ideas is wholistic.

This is a propaganda space. It is boundaryless democratic underground, not overground. You are free to chose whom you trust and distrust, like in a shakespeare play. How pedantic.

God fear ye be polluted of mind from other folks who might make sense and be part of the exogenous set at large.

For myself as a foreign critic, it is my act of loyalty to be honest for once... at least i owe my mother that... and my mother is american. I think the USA government has become terribley evil in both houses in both parties including the democratic one that money supercedes votes in a state purporting "d"emocratic heritage.

It is the price of my registering to vote in the democratic primary for Kucinich that i speak my peace in public... what you really say, indirectly is that people who might have intelligent critiques of america go elsewhere to discuss them... and that leaves us less challenged... that is plain stupid... a theory for fossils.

[TheBigGuy]

86. If you think this country has become evil...

....across the board. well, I have nothing to say to you.

[ima_sinnic]

91. do you always twist people's words to fit your own ignorant agenda?

she said "the USA government has become terribley evil in both houses in both parties" -- does that look like "the country has become evil across the board"? Her point has merit. Your point is that you dismiss people who use the word evil in the same sentence as USA.

[TheBigGuy]

100. in both houses and in both partys

seems to mean across the board politically...in both political partys.

[ima_sinnic]

108. you said "the country"

--you need to be more precise with your language. she said "the government" not "the country"

[sweetheart]

117. i meant by that prhase

that the american way of disenfranchising voters, economically and racially, and informationally (through media) has created an "us" and "them" government where i am "them" to my own bloody country... and i won't stand for that if the frkking place wants my tax blood... the parties are ruled by the "us" and "them" money party... not by common sense, sustainable healthy society or even remote sanity given the state that the only thing the government finds important in its role for citzens is patience under the broken state while they burn the state down in a false war, as much a lie as the drugs war.

I mean that i smoke grass an i am a criminal in the united states for that... and having had the war on drugs waged on me-the-enemy all these yaers, I see not the emergence of even common sense to end the waste, wars on civility adn the spread of weapons that america is doing with its fake wars... both partys institutionally support bombing was and mass murder over and over and over and over... that is what i mean by institutionally in both parties... it is totally corrupted... it is time to write a new constitution.

[sweetheart]

104. clearly by my presence i do not feel so

Rather those in power in the agencies of governmetn as it stands areally have become malefic. Indeed. I genuinely believe that the bush administration has no goodwill whatsoever and that the USA goverment REALLY is about fucking over the entire planet and everyone on it. Show me some evidence that this is not the case?

Clearly on this site i find goodwill, but i have no omen of that at all coming from any vent of american government or policy. It is wholly perverted and cannot provide a coherent way for the world to feed itself and care for its own kind without strive, disenfranchisement and the corruption of the sovereign individual. The constitution has been perverted by teh south who have retaken the country since the civil war and to be so toddy, you are a vichy democrat by my take.

The occupying powers that have overthrown the constitution... i do not accept this overturning of the civil war to rule by plantation owner.

I don't need you to say anything to me, and i'm sorry you are such a tart... I don't represent any threat to any person in the usa or anywhere in the world. Hey if you can never be frank, and discuss frankly, then what good is there... why turn it to black and white... i am a person just like you... beliving that we can make a sustainable global economic architecture without state terror and militarism by standing down at arms and having the balls and heroism to be a peaceful superpower with its military homeside.

[TheBigGuy]

113. A Vichy Democrat?

Heh! We are truley in a paralle universe here!

[Sterling]

141. i am a person just like you

It's unfortunate that someone on this board would force you to make such a statement. I am truly sorry and embarrassed that this person is a fellow American.

[Deja Q]

85. An economic philosophy that requires its surroundings to be infinite...

but cannot possibly be due to reality isn't going to last forever.

It took the beginnings of "globalization" for the economy to re-bloom under Clinton. NAFTA is part of that.

It all started with "nationalism" where giant superstores (Walmart, K-Mart, SuperValu, and other large chains) butted in to towns and cities, exterminating the "mom'n'pop" stores. People are attracted to lower prices. Who wouldn't be in this society we've created for ourselves? Surely those megastores are doing us a service by buying in mega-bulk and getting a big discount for themselves as they pass along savings (in the amount of 5 cents on average) to the rest of us?

But "nationalism" wasn't enough, we need to expand our empire throughout the globe. Will we be fair with globalization and let other countries plop their chains on our turf? You bet your sweet life America will prevent that by any means necessary. Will we be fair and civilized and give the workers overseas reasonable pay and benefits? Of course not, not when the American CEO needs his gigantic paycheck and we can't let the poor CEOs suffer! (Before 1980, the ratio of pay between CEO and average employee was 40 to 1. A few years ago, it was 400 to 1. With the last couple of years, how much wider has the gap been made in favor of the CEOs, and are they deserving (no)?)

But once our empire is entrenched around the world, what then? Our economy is based on a type of growth potential which is not infinite by any means. Oh it needs to grow and continue growing to survive, but that can't happen. We haven't colonized space; we're not trading goods and services, with little green blobs in polycarbide shells. How do we expand and grow beyond saturation point?

They'll probably just cheapen the quality of the products again to keep the demand up. Make a product too reliable and people won't need to buy another and then the economy collapses; every supply-side vendor goes bust because nobody's replacing their products. And, of course, technology is made to be replacable - so eventually the working class folk known as "the repairmen" are rendered obselete. (our society and the world we've made is extremely wasteful...)

Add into that bucket of joy that our society is eternally dependent on oil, a substance which will dry up within 40 years if not sooner. Everything from gasoline to the plastic used to make your comb to those high quality hospital syringes and other medical bits contains oil.

At some point, the American empire will end and it won't be pretty.

Maybe this is why Bush and the pukes say the budget can be balanced and it's not a big concern and everything else. They know the system will eventually implode and they want to give their corporate budz the most profitable life before it does implode.

And, of course, if big business sends too many well paying jobs overseas and gives us low-paying crap instead, it'll implode anyway. The rich and wealthy are rich and wealthy, but they can't make up for the 200 million of us who keep the economy working in their favor.

Who cares if the foreigners are hypocrites or acting in double-standards? The points they mention are still quite valid. We, the "superpower", ought to set the example for the civilized world. And not put ourselves in a position so we do get ridiculed or criticized. If the rest of the world followed our example, the oil would've run dry by 1998 and the planet would be so polluted we, along with the rest of the life forms on this planet, would all be dead.

[dudeness]

88. I put my hand up..

yes i have been critical of the US..but also of australia..Britain...Israel..PLO..saudis..Iran ..Nth Korea..in fact any countries that endore policies that impinge on basic Human Rights and what my perceptions are of a fair and decent world..once again these are only my perceptions and may or may not be shared by other posters..I am an australian and at this time in our history ashamed of the actions of my country under this current regime..this i believe makes me a progressive not a regressive wishing to implement a stalinist or similar ideology on to the current system of government..I am proud to say I a leftish and will work toward the changing of an autocratic world system that determines "might is right'..btw I believe the US has made a major contribution to arts and culture and am happy to discuss these achievements with anyone willing..

[Dirk39]

89. As a foreign poster, I agree with you...

and a lot of the times - although I'm one of those marxist-communist-long-haired-punk-haired-socialist-baby-eating-intellectuals - it makes me wonder, too. My rule is: criticize your own government first. And as a german, although just born 1964, nothing is further from my mind than to give lessons to anyone.
And my impression is that a lot of DUers understand this.
I'm really concerned about that a lot of Northamericans have illusions about Europe. They admire a "welfare-state" or a kind of social-balanced democrazy, that doesn't exist anymore, since the collapse of the Soviet-Union (would be hard to describe, why this has destroyed the social democracy in Europe). And whenever you talk to people of a foreign country it's as if you would represent your country. I don't represent Germany by any means, and my opinions are those of a minority.
I love DU, and one of the best things about DU is, that something like this couldn't work in Europe. After weeks, there would be 23 DU's fighting against each other :-).
And a lot of the times, I'm afraid to criticize Schröder or Fischer here on DU. I'm afraid to get flamed by Americans!
Although: I'm not against America, or the American people...:-), but the way they admire Europe really frightens me!

And I'm even afraid of teaching the BIG GUY about Nazi-uniforms and Leni Riefenstahl.

I was in the USA for about six month (escaping from the German reunification somehow about 1989). I loved it there and I've met so many wonderfull people there and in a way, I still believe in the civil society and the citizens there to have more guts - even if it is a minority - than at least in Germany. The French might be a different case.
And by the way: the most radical left-wingers here in Germany support Bush and even the war against Iraq. Without foreigners here on DU, you wouldn't know...

Greetings anyway,
Dirk
P.S. Hey European DUers, didn't I teach you in our secret lessons about the american paranoia since years? And now: look at that...

[TheBigGuy]

97. You have hit the nail on the head re my opinions of Europe.

"'m really concerned about that a lot of Northamericans have illusions about Europe. They admire a "welfare-state" or a kind of social-balanced democrazy, that doesn't exist anymore, since the collapse of the Soviet-Union (would be hard to describe, why this has destroyed the social democracy in Europe)."

Yeah...that was always what I thought..."wouldnt it be great if we had a European style social-democratic welfare state", except, you say this welfare state has went away....:-(

[Dirk39]

99. You make me sick right now...

your goddamn country gave exile to the german people, who escaped from the Nazis, and who have influenced me more than everything else in life, like Theodor W. Adorno. Without the USA, opening their gates to them - although much too late - maybe I wouldn't even know, that there were Germans like this.
Yes, there is Antiamericanism all over Europe and all over the globe, but do you really think, they would contribute to DU?
Even Schröder was "surfing" - how american - on antiamerican resentments in Germany. Without this, he would have lost the second election. The same is somehow true for Chiraq. Maybe if you would take the anti-european resentments among foreign Duers more serious, you could benefit from us?
Dirk

[TheBigGuy]

105. Sure,, why not.

"Yes, there is Antiamericanism all over Europe and all over the globe, but do you really think, they would contribute to DU? "

Sure, why not. They would find a receptive audience here.

[stickdog]

96. You seem to have a pnack for riling up the crowd.

When we sneeze, the germs fly all over the world.

God Bless America.

[TheBigGuy]

98. yeah..but i wasnt really flaming anybody..

...it was just an "this is my opinion" kind of thread.

[Dirk39]

114. And I think there had to be a thread like this...

a lot of the times, when I contribute to DU, I just think, these are people, I like, and I share a lot of things with them, and it's not just politics, it's as well the Lounge. Like we have so much in common, and some things are just so completely different. And you learn a lot more about this, if you listen to people talking about what kind of food or music (or uniforms:-)) they like...
But if something happens, like Bush is opening his mouth again, and I just feel like commenting on this, I reject, 'cause I think, it's somehow cheap, as a foreigner, to offend THEIR government, and at the same time, to let them tell you, how admirable my government is. I rather puke. But let's reveal my secret plan, there are only both of us, noone else is listening, we've just unplugged the CIA: I want Kucinich to become the president of the USA. Then I immigrate to the USA and start my ongoing fight against the rest of the world.
But Pssst!
Dirk

[Junkdrawer]

112. There's a saying "Please don't feed the trolls"...

Instead we get 100+ posts on a "Love it or Leave it" post... :eyes:

[Sterling]

133. The mods should have locked this.

Well before it got started. Why this kind of stuff is allowed on DU I will never understand but I will not forget when the next fund drive comes around.

[TheBigGuy]

116. I can see I have no place here at DU

based on the dialogue here i can see that DU probably isnt the online place for me. Im still loyal to the Democratic party, but perhaps I need to find a more congenial online community (and NO Free Republic is not it).

Im not sure how to terminate membership here at DU. I will email the mods to take of this I guess.

[JVS]

118. If you want to go out with a bang start a vicious and hateful thread

I've seen it done. Quite a spectacle.
BTW I agree with Dirk39 on this matter

[Blue_Chill]

121. I wish you wouldn't leave

There are many of us on DU that don't hate the US. Don't let the idealist that have no sense of homeland get ya down.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

134. I doubt the "big guy" (so-called) is worried about me

but homeland is the same argument that Hitler and so many others used to get their people to do the most heinous things

[Dirk39]

122. Don't act offended Big Guy...

although I'm just a foreigner, I know, you would miss DU. And without DU, you'd be more unhappy and you're a citizen of the Land of the Free, so the Land of the free would be unhappy, and as a real patriot, you can't do this to your country. You have to stay here, even if it's hard sometimes...
Dirk

[Sterling]

127. Door, ass, bu bye

That is the best news I have heard all day.

After reading your point of view on foreigners I can't see how you've lasted so long here anyway. You express contempt for views held by the majority of people on this site. The good news is people like you are becoming more and more irrelevant within the Democratic Party and society in general. I agree you would probably be happier on another board, one that serves freedom fries.

I know many of us would be happier without having members that don’t want people from other countries participating in our conversations.

I am sure there are people in the good old US of A that think you should not participate in public dialogue because of your sexual preference and you are just as fucked up as they are for suggesting foreigners should not post their opinions here..

[Blue_Chill]

129. Ah yes screw the patriots

those evil fuckers! :eyes:

[Sterling]

131. Thats right

Screw the joingoistic freedom fry eating morans.

[Blue_Chill]

142. nationalism is not patriotism

too many get those confused.

[Sterling]

150. I agree and you seem to be one of those people

Maybe the BigGuy can turn you on to a site that fits your views better once he is relocated.

[Blue_Chill]

156. I'm not going to be chased off as easily

I've been around a long time and I know that while some of you may scream the loudest, there are many that disagree.

[Terwilliger]

137. patriots??????????

give ME a break

Whatever TheBigGuy is, he's just as "patriotic" as I am. I just dont use the flag to blindfold me from the realities of our "country"

[Blue_Chill]

144. You don't recognize country

you live in a 'world with no borders' so WTF do you even know about patriotism?

[Terwilliger]

153. see, I grew up believing all the bullshit they gave me

so I know what a patriot is...I know what it is to be patriotic...this is why I sit here aand fight with you conservative types all day. You keep talking about how wonderful America is yet you dont seem willing to see how many problems we have in this country, and how much the country has NOT lived up to the hopes of the founding fathers. To sit there and say "oh, well, it's better than anywhere else" is the same problem I have with Democrats so willing to vote the "lesser of two evils"

This country did mean something to me, and it does now. END US IMPERIAL INTERVENTIONISM. If the world doesnt want our system of government, we should not be trying to force it on them. END THE DRUG WAR. A war on America's sons and daughters. END CORPORATE PERSONHOOD. Large corporations shouldnt be treated like an individual with the rights of an individual established by the Constitution. END CAPITALISM. Reform the "free market" into the "market that makes sure there's no homeless, poor, or down-trodden" If you call that socialism, fine, just do it.

These and many more things to make MY COUNTRY a real beacon of truth and justice. NOT more of the same crap we've seen for eons.

[friendofbenn]

126. i love elvis

:tinfoilhat:death to america. p.s vote kucinich p.p.s watch out for communists they're everywhere

[nomaco-10]

135. YEE HAW

I'm glad I sat this one out! Kinda like those Why Vote Green? or the dreaded Genetic Freedom Philosophy threads.

[Sterling]

145. Genetic Freedom Philosophy threads

What the hell was that anyway? I could not get anything out of that bullshit thread except that the guy really liked white people.

It's amazing the riff raff that drifts onto this board sometimes.

[stickdog]

136. Come on, dude.

There's enough room for a little feel-good us-against-them jingoism in the DU big tent.

You just have to be thick-skinned about it!

[Sterling]

147. Is there really?

I would like to think not. There is plenty of room for that at freeptardland but I would like to think DUers a little more mature than that.

Hey if the mods won't do their job it is nice to see the majority of DUers have zero tolerence for bigots.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. Have you ever stopped to wonder...

why there is widespread anti-Americanism but very little anti-Canadianism, anti-Norwegianism, anti-Italianism, anti-Indonesianism, anti-Zimbabweism, or any other kind of anti-ism?

The countries that inspire resentment are the ones that pick fights with other countries and otherwise throw their weight around internationally.

It's the price the U.S. pays for being the most influential (for good and evil) nation on earth.

I daresay that those who are knee-jerk anti-anti-Americans have never lived in a foreign country.

One thing that has struck me during visits to Japan, China, and Taiwan, as well as watching foreign broadcasts on News World Internationl, is that the TV news broadcasts in foreign countries carry more stories about the U.S. than the typical U.S. newscast carries international news about all countries combined.

Our country is the world's 300-pound gorilla. On a personal level, if everyone called you arroagant and self-centered consistently, it would behoove you to think that maybe you were arrogant and self-centered.

America needs "the gift to see ourselves as others see us."

[Sterling]

152. They hate us for our freedom?

:eyes:

[tom_paine]

146. Both agree and disagree, BigGuy

Agree: During the Days of the Old Republic, I felt EXACTLY as you do. Mostly it was because foriegn complaints had much less validity. Yes, we were imperfect...yes we did stupid things, and yes we had our own dark sordid history. But you are right, so did they and they had and still have their own selfishly self-interested axes to grind. That will always remain true. "There is no privileged frame of reference," as Einstein said. And no privileged frame of morally superior criticism...

Disagree: In spite of that there are two things at work, here. Assuming I remain true to the point raised in agree the simple truth is foreign complaints have much more validity now. For the first time in our lives...much more unambiguously than Vietnam, IMHO...this country is really the bad guys now. Invading countries "preemtpively". The whole ghastly grotesque Stalinist lie-fest (and as laughably, boringly predictable as any Stalinist lie fest ever was) leading up to the Iraq Invasion...these are new things. Much worse than anything we've engaged in since Vietnam and Iran and Chile, and in many ways and on many levels much worse even than those given the implications.

So suddenly, much to my dismay, and even considering that I realize those foreign complaints come from imperfect sources (just as ours did even against the moribund and awful Soviets in the 70s and 80s)...I must now give them weight because they are true now.

(curse the Imperial Busheviks for putting me in this position)

[leftyandproud]

149. THANK YOU for this post!!!

I think it was really needed here..

and I think a LOT of the easily offended people who responded with disgust to your post should take a look at it again, relax, and give an honest assessment of it, and of themselves.

The USA does stand for capitalism. The USA is NO QUESTION the biggest obstacle to global socialism right now and this is why many of us dislike the USA, myself included.

I am a socialist democrat. The USA has traditionally, and continues to stand against my philisophical beliefs, so I have an instinctive position against nearly every attempt it takes to assert its power. I think many others on the left feel the same way--they just don't have the courage to admit it. Be honest...and if you don't like America, there is no shame in it. Everyone has a different philosophy.

If you have our point of view, its a bit hard to respect America when the majority of the population is apparently happy with the status quo...and when so many Americans, including regular Joe's, businesses, and politicians stand diametrically opposed to socialism, it does get frustrating...and much of what the right wingers consider "anti-Americanism" comes when we explode with rants about particular topics...letting everything out at once. I have seen this many times...and think if we could just have a reasoned discourse, and accept that your points are true, we wouldn't need to do this...We could openly express our disdain for the so-called "free market economy" and have an honest debate about whether it deservs to stay.

[Sterling]

154. Speak for yourself

I can make the distiction between America and the wicked policies of leaders who have betrayed us all.

:P

[tom_paine]

155. Couldn't diasgree more strongly

Not by a long site are all DUers ultra-lefties and I do take offense at your comments and if you think the USA is opposed to your personal philsophy then you should have left long ago.

(I can't believe you made me say that!)

The United States is about capitalism and rightfully so. I agree a social safety net is desirable and of course "Ferdinand Marcos" style Busheviks Crony Capitalists give capitalism a bad name BUT...

damnit most Democrats are capitalists ("social capitalists" if you will) NOT socialists. And the Free Market Economy works very well indeed, at preserving prosperity and a modicum of Liberty if it is well-regulated and policed.

Have I uncovered a Fair and Balanced Nest?

[maggrwaggr]

158. Methinks the Big Guy is a Big Paranoid and a nationalist

I know exactly the post he's talking about, and I sure as hell didn't realize it was a "foreign" poster until Big Guy pointed it out. Many others in the thread thought BG was joking, but he was not.

The post in question wasn't any different than the stuff we all spew here on DU! In fact it was EXACTLY the same stuff. It's something we would ALL agree with. All except Big Guy. And he only disagrees because the guy's a "furriner."

If you're truly enlightened Big Guy, you'd realize borders are just silly things that men make up. We're all people, we're all humans and may God Bless not just America but All People Everywhere.

Seriously, Big Guy, WHY are you at DU? I've wondered this about you since I first started noticing your posts.

[deek]

159. another

fine-standing progressive voice calling for world unification

[MrPrax]

160. Made in America

look for the Union Label...when you are buying agit-prop

Hmm...
Empire has it benefits and one of them is not 4nrs quoting you:

"Since the USA (under both Republican and Democratic administrations) is the great exponent of capitalism and free markets I suspect alot of anti-American crticism is driven by a left wing agenda hostile to capitalism and the market economy, and to the US as the great global advocate of this economic philosphy."

Left wing?...
Isn't your rap supposed to suppress non-American ideas of free markets, capitalism, democracy.

I agree with you...Americans are becoming less human and more ascended masters woefully looking for apostles.


some 4nr made this!!!

[lazarus]

161. Sorry this went on so long, folks

Locking.