In reality, pro-war Americans see Iraqi deaths at US hands as justice.

[Inland]

Finishing a thought I was making before the mod locked a thread.

Adding to what you said, most Americans listen to Bush and the RW media when they described Iraq as a threat and present Iraq as a den of terrorists.

Fact is, most pro war Americans talk about doing it all for the sake of Iraqis while looking for vengence against any Arabs or muslims we can get our hands on. Nobody makes a distinction between innocent and guilty. There is a lot of letting-God-sort-em-out feelings. When there's torture at Abu Gharaib, the pro war says, "they are sawing heads off", as if there is some connection between the prisoners at AG and the crimes committed while they are imprisoned, a pretty big leap. An Iraqi death at the hands of an American is some sort of justice. An Iraqi death at the hands of the insurgent operating in the chaos we created is the fault of Iraqis.

That's why I believe America is ready to wash its hands of Iraq. February 7, Bush declares victory and gets our people ready to withdraw. My prediction.

[marmar]

1. Sad but true ...

I was at my health club working out and two of the guys that worked there were talking about Abu Ghraib. One of the guys said: "They're getting all worked up because our soldiers abused some of them. How many of ours have they killed? They can kill'em all - before they kill all of us."
There are some frighteningly warped minds out there. The current climate has that Germany circa-1930s feel to it...

:scared:

[BlueEyedSon]

3. A friend of mine asked "well, how do you suggest we get info out of them?"

SO sad....

[marmar]

4. So true....

and I wish I had said something to them, but I wonder what good it would do. It's like trying to drill a hole in iron...

[BlueEyedSon]

2. We have god on our side, Bush said so. How could we be doing "wrong"?

[Malva Zebrina]

5. caller this morning on WJ

said that there is a war on terror, and that we had to start somewhere to rid the world of terrorists.(Iraq) subject was the upcoming "elections" I wondered if she would carry that over to Iran.

This Bush propagandist manipulation of fact has been one of the most successful propagandist orchestrations ever from day 1 up until now.

It played on fear and it won. And like a snowball rolling downhill, it acquires more mass, especially since Bush was elected and there are no impediments in it's path.

People do think there is such a concrete thing as war on terror, and people do think that in Iraq, we are fighting the war on terror. It is of course an opinion based on fear and completely bereft of any fact--they do not know the facts.

Bush has successfully embedded the meme that the Iraqi resistance are terrorists, thus the connection to all terrorists all over, including BL and Al Quaida and any other of those whose members have brown skin.(seldom are the Irish terrorists mentioned) Repetition over and over of that word terrorist, has entered the sub-conscious realm of the vulnerable and vacant minded. There can be little refuting this simplistic belief in the minds of those who are so stupid and uninformed. One reason is the unfortunate IWR vote on the part of the Democrats , another is the apparent collaberation of Democrats and Republicans, so apparent and visible in the Rice hearing and debate.

For now, it is all just OK--invasions on lies, killing the hundreds of thousands of innocents, taking away what rightfully belonged to the Iraqi people, is justice and it will all come to good because Bush said he has planted the flag of liberty--for now, torture is approved of also.

[Village Idiot]

6. Most people fail to realize that the USA...

is the greatest state sponsor of terrorism the world has EVER known!!!
Year Country US Activity Remarks
1946 GREECE Restore monarch after overthrow of Metaxas government. Successful
1946-1955 WEST GERMANY Average of $6 million annually to support former Nazi intelligence network of General Reinhard Gehlen. Successful
1948-1968 ITALY Average of $30 million annually in payments to political and labor leaders to support anti- Communist candidates in Italian elections. Successful
1949 GREECE Military assistance to anti-Communist forces in Greek civil war. Successful
1949-1953 UKRAINE Organize and support a Ukrainian resistance movement. Unsuccessful
1949-1961 BURMA Support 12,000 Nationalist China troops in Burma under General Li Mi as an incursion force into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful
1950-1952 POLAND Financial and military assistance for Polish Freedom and Independence Movement. Unsuccessful
1950 ALBANIA Overthrow government of Enver Hoxha. Unsuccessful
1951-1954 CHINA Airdrop guerilla teams into People's Republic of China. Unsuccessful
1953 IRAN Overthrow Mossadegh government and install Shah Zahedi. Cost: $10 million. Successful
1953 PHILIPPINES Assassination and propaganda campaign to overcome Huk resistance and install government of Ramon Magsaysay. Successful
1953 COSTA RICA Overthrow government of Jose Figueres. Unsuccessful
1954 SOUTH VIETNAM Install government of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful
1954 WEST GERMANY Arrange abduction and discreditation of West German intelligence chief Otto John, and replace with Reinhard Gehlen. Successful
1954 GUATEMALA Overthrow government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman and replace with Carlos Castillo Armas. Successful
1955 CHINA Assassinate Zhou Enlai en route to Bandung Conference. Unsuccessful
1956 HUNGARY Financial and military assistance to organize and support a Hungarian resistance movement, and broad propaganda campaign to encourage it. Unsuccessful
1956 CUBA Establish anti-Communist police force, Buro de Represion Actividades Communistas (BRAC) under Batista regime. Successful
1956 EGYPT Overthrow Nasser government. Unsuccessful
1956 SYRIA Overthrow Ghazzi government. Aborted by Israeli invasion of Egypt.
1956-1957 JORDAN Average of $750,000 annually in personal payments to King Hussein. According to United States government, payments ceased when disclosed in 1976.
1957 LEBANON Financial assistance for the election of pro-American candidates to Lebanese Parliament. Successful
1958 INDONESIA Financial and military assistance, including B-26 bombers, for rebel forces attempting to overthrow Sukarno government. Unsuccessful
1958-1961 TIBET Infiltrate Tibetan guerrillas trained in United States to fight Chinese Communists. Unsuccessful
1959 CAMBODIA Assassinate Prince Norodum Shianouk. Unsuccessful
1960 GUATEMALA Military assistance, including the use of B-26 bombers for government of Miguel Ydigoras Fuentes to defeat rebel forces. Successful
1960 ANGOLA Financial and military assistance to rebel forces of Holden Roberto. Inconclusive
1960 LAOS Military assistance, including 400 United States Special Forces troops, to deny the Plain of Jars bad Mekong Basin to Pathet Lao. Inconclusive
1961-1965 LAOS Average of $300 million annually to recruit and maintain L'Armee Clandestine of 35,000 Hmong and Meo tribesmen and 17,000 Thai mercenaries in support of government of Phoumi Nosavan to resist Pathet Lao. Successful
1961-1963 CUBA Assassinate Fidel Castro. Six attempts in this period. Unsuccessful
1961 CUBA Train and support invasion force of Cuban exiles to overthrow Castro government, and assist their invasion at the Bay of Pigs. Cost: $62 million. Unsuccessful
1961 ECUADOR Overthrow government of Hose Velasco Ibarra. Successful
1961 CONGO Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Patrice Lumumba. Successful
1961 DOMINICAN REPUBLIC Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Rafael Trujillo. Successful
1961-1966 CUBA Broad sabotage program, including terrorist attacks on coastal targets and bacteriological warfare, in effort to weaken Castro government. Unsuccessful
1962 THAILAND Brigade of 5,000 United States Marines to resist threat to Thai government from Pathet Lao. Successful
1962-1964 BRITISH GUIANA Organize labor strikes and riots to overthrow government of Cheddi Jagan. Successful
1962-1964 BRAZIL Organize campaign of labor strike and propaganda to overthrow government of Joao Goulart. Successful
1963 DOMINICAN REPUBLIC Overthrow government of Juan Bosch in military coup. Successful
1963 SOUTH VIETNAM Precipitate conditions leading to assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem. Successful
1963 ECUADOR Overthrow government of Carlos Julio Arosemena. Successful
1963-1984 EL SALVADOR Organize ORDEN and ANSESAL domestic intelligence networks under direction of General Jose Alberto Medrano and Colonel Nicolas Carranza, and provide intelligence support and training in surveillance, interrogation and assassination techniques. Successful
1963-1973 IRAQ Financial and military assistance for Freedom Party of Mulla Mustafa al Barzani in effort to establish independent Kurdistan. Unsuccessful
1964 CHILE $20 million in assistance for Eduardo Frei to defeat Salvador Allende in Chilean elections. Successful
1964 BRAZIL, GUATEMALA, URUGUAY, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for police and intelligence personnel. Inconclusive
1964 CONGO Financial and military assistance, including B-26 and T-28 aircraft, and American and exiled Cuban pilots, for Joseph Mobutu and Cyril Adoula, and later for Moise Tshombe in Katanga, to defeat rebel forces loyal to Lumumba. Successful
1964-1967 SOUTH VIETNAM Phoenix Program to eliminate Viet Cong political infrastructure through more than 20,000 assassinations. Infiltrated by Viet Cong and only partially successful
1964-1971 NORTH VIETNAM Sabotage and ambush missions under Operations Plan 34A by United States Special Forces and Nung tribesmen. Inconclusive
1965-1971 LAOS Under Operations Shining Brass and Prairie Fire, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Nung and Meo tribesmen under General Bang Pao. Inconclusive
1965 THAILAND Recruit 17,000 mercenaries to support Laotian government of Phoumi Nosavan resisting Pathet Lao. Successful
1965 PERU Provide training in assassination and interrogation techniques for Peruvian police and intelligence personnel, similar to training given in Uruguay, Brazil and Dominican Republic, in effort to defeat resistance movement. Unsuccessful
1965 INDONESIA Organize campaign of propaganda to overthrow Sukarno government, and precipitate conditions leading to massacre of more than 500,000 members of Indonesian Communist Party, in order to eliminate opposition to new Suharto government. Successful
1967 BOLIVIA Assist government in capture of Ernesto Che Guevara. Successful
1967 GREECE Overthrow government of George Papandreou and install military government of Colonel George Papadopolous after abdication of King Constantine. Successful
1967-1971 CAMBODIA Under Projects Daniel Boone and Salem House, sabotage and ambush missions by United States Special Forces personnel and Meo tribesmen. Inconclusive
1969-1970 CAMBODIA Bombing campaign to crush Viet Cong sanctuaries in Cambodia. Unsuccessful
1970 CAMBODIA Overthrow government of Prince Norodom Sihanouk. Successful
1970-1973 CHILE Campaign of assassinations, propaganda, labor strikes and demonstrations to overthrow government of Salvador Allende. Cost: $8,400,000. Successful
1973-1978 AFGHANISTAN Military and financial assistance to government of Mohammed Duad to resist rise to power of Noor Mohammed Taraki. Unsuccessful
1975 PORTUGAL Overthrow government of General Vasco dos Santos Goncalves. Successful
1975 ANGOLA Military assistance to forces of Holden Roberto and Jonas Savimbi to defeat forces of Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) during Angolan civil war, and prevent MPLA from forming new government. Unsuccessful
1975 AUSTRALIA Propaganda and political pressure to force dissolution of labor government of Gough Whitlam. Successful
1976 JAMAICA Military coup to overthrow government of Michael Manley. Unsuccessful
1976-1984 ANGOLA Financial and military assistance to forces of Jonas Savimbi to harass and destabilize Neto and succeeding governments. Inconclusive
1979 IRAN Install military government to replace Shah and resist growth of Moslem fundamentalism. Unsuccessful
1979-1980 JAMAICA Financial pressure to destabilize government of Michael Manley, and campaign propaganda and demonstrations to defeat it in elections. Successful
1979 AFGHANISTAN Military aid to rebel forces of Zia Nezri, Zia Khan Nassry, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Sayed Ahmed Gailani and conservative mullahs to overthrow government of Hafizullah Amin. Aborted by Soviet intervention and installation of new government.
1980-1984 AFGHANISTAN Continuing military aid to same rebel groups to harass Soviet occupation forces and challenge legitimacy of government of Babrak Karmal. Successful
1979 SEYCHELLES Destabilize government of France Albert Rene. Successful
1980 GRENADA Mercenary coup to overthrow government of Maurice Bishop. Successful
1980 DOMINICA Financial support to Freedom Party of Eugenia Charles to defeat Oliver Seraphim in Dominican elections. Successful
1980 GUYANA Assassinate opposition leader Walter Rodney to consolidate power of government of Forbes Burnham. Successful
1980-1984 NICARAGUA Military assistance to Adolfo Colero Portocarrero, Alfonso Robelo, Alfonso Callejas, Fernando Chamorro Rappacioli, Eden Pastora Gomez, Adrianna Guillen, Steadman Fagoth and former Somoza National Guard officers, to recruit, train and equip anti-Sandinista forces for sabotage and terrorist incursions into Nicaragua from sanctuaries in Honduras and Costa Rica, in effort to destabilize government of Daniel Ortega Saavedra. Successful
1981 SEYCHELLES Military coup to overthrow government of France Albert Rene. Unsuccessful
1981-1982 MAURITIUS Financial support to Seewoosagar Ramgoolam to bring him to power in 1982 elections. Unsuccessful
1981-1984 LIBYA Broad campaign of economic pressure, propaganda, military maneuvers in Egypt, Sudan and Gulf of Sidra, and organization if Libyan Liberation Front exiles to destabilize government of Muammar Qaddafi. Inconclusive
1982 CHAD Military assistance to Hissen Habre to overthrow government of Goukouni Oueddei. Successful
1982 GUATEMALA Military coup to overthrow government of Angel Anibal Guevara. Successful
1982 BOLIVIA Military coup to overthrow government of Celso Torrelio. Successful
1982 JORDAN Military assistance to equip and train two Jordanian brigades as an Arab strike force to implement United States policy objectives without Israeli assistance. Successful
1982-1983 SURINAM Overthrow government of Colonel Desi Bouterse. Three attempts in this period. Unsuccessful
1984 EL SALVADOR. $1.4 million in financial support for the Presidential election campaign of Jose Napoleon Duarte. Successful

[indepat]

7. If a just God resides in heaven, a mountain of justice surely awaits

many.