Legalize pot or ban alcohol again?

[UdoKier]

Poll question: Legalize pot or ban alcohol again?

Since study after study has shown that marijuana is actually LESS harmful and dangerous than alcohol, which kills HUNDREDS every year just from alcohol overdose alone, which would be the more reasonable course of action?

It has to be one or the other, Since the two drugs are roughly equivalent, they must be treated the same to be fair.

[jaysunb]

1. Tax it ??

how ? it grows out of the ground...or in the closet. Honor system ?

[UdoKier]

3. Being an intoxicant, it would have to be regulated...

Sold in stores in packs, only to people over 21...

[Jack_DeLeon]

11. all drugs...

should be unregulated.

[ProgressiveConn]

14. I agree.

Ideally there is no regulation of any drugs. Whatever you want to put into your own body feel free... Your body your call.

But it is not realistic. I don't want H available at the local packy.

Plus we need tax income. What makes more sense taxing moderate food and clothing or tax luxuries like beer and pot?

[Jack_DeLeon]

45. Taxing income...

A tax on marijuana would not be a tax on income. It would be a sin tax, much like taxes on cigarrettes and whatnot.

[ProgressiveConn]

46. Indeed.

I prefer "luxury" to "sin" though. =)

[Cicero]

83. I don't know, "sin" can be pretty fun, sometimes.

:evilgrin:

Later,

[LiberallyInclined]

26. Packs? you assume that people would want to smoke it.

if it's legal, more people might finally find it cost-effective to switch to cooking with it.

selling it in bags in boxes of brownie mix could be one option.

although- i do agree it should be regulated, and restricted to those over 21, just like alcohol.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

123. If you can vote and go to war when you are 18, you are an adult. n/t

[LiberallyInclined]

135. Not so in this country.

at least not for all things-
you can sign a contract, but you can't buy alcohol, and if pot is ever legalized, i'm willing to bet that it will carry the same age restriction as alcohol- which it should.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

144. no, it shouldn't, unless you raise the age for military service to 21

don't expect people who don't have full rights of adult citizenship to take on the adult responsibility of the military. I KNOW that's the way it is, I am say, that isn't how it should be. We have to make up our minds what age is adult and stick to it. You cannot deprive people of their adult rights while at the same time forcing adult repsonsibility upon them.

[LiberallyInclined]

25. Tax it.

not everyone will choose to grow- not everyone can...after all- it's also fairly easy to make your own beer or wine- but the vast vast vast majority of people choose to buy.

as far as taxing the people who'd like to grow it- make it legal to grow only with a liscence- which would allow you to grow "X" amount of weed for "x" amount of money- the more you want to grow, the more your liscence would cost.

[jaysunb]

27. Hard to grow ?????

you gotta be kidding me ! A seed in the ground and some water : voila ! it won't be anything decent, but it will certainly send you running to the fridge.

How the heck do you tax a natural herb or any other plant.

How bout we roll the clock back to 1938 or 39 and tell the liquour dealers and Randolph Hearst and Co. to go f**k themselves with their false claims and hysteria spreading. ( Blacks and Mexicans will be raping white women if it stays leagal ! )

[K-W]

34. Not everyone has spare property or a desire to grow drugs.

Its easy to grow lots of things that people choose to buy in the store for convienence.

You tax it the same way you tax anything. You write a law taxing it, and you enforce it.

Obviously if you grow it yourself and dont sell it, it never changes hands so teh government cant tax it.

[LiberallyInclined]

55. it's not all that easy if you don't have a yard.

a lot of people live in high-rise city buildings- where would you reccomend they grow it?

also- if a lot of people are growing high-grade pot in their backyards, they're going to need to add some pretty good security systems as well- or do you just assume that no high-school kids are going to be making raids on people's backyard patches?

the way you tax any plant is to require a liscence to grow it. the more you want to grow, the more your liscence costs.

[in_cog_ni_to]

147. It's very easy to make an indoor garden with grow lights.

ANYONE could grow it ANYWHERE they wanted to.

[ooglymoogly]

66. hmmm like tobacco?

[dkofos]

70. We tax tobacco

[SmokingJacket]

76. You tax the sale of it, not the use of it.

Duh.

[Zenlitened]

78. This is actually getting to be kind of funny.

Stoners complaining that marijuana is too much trouble to grow, as if sticking a few plants in a window is some sort of daunting undertaking. Nothing like keeping old stereotypes alive, huh?

Jeez.

:wtf:

[K-W]

82. Not at all.

Even if it was legal to grow, many people would still choose to purchase it because they just dont want to bother growing it, cant grow it, or dont smoke enough to care to grow it.

Im sure all stoners would, as they do now, at least try to grow it. :p

[LiberallyInclined]

99. if you think that growing quality high-grade marijuana is as easy as...

"sticking a few plants in a window" then you obviously have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

sure....ANYONE can grow ditchweed- but who'd want to?

btw- i've been growing some kick-ass weed in my backyard(IN a major u.s. city) every summer for the past 8 years. in the northern hemisphere, outdoor plants do best if you plant your seeds on June 1.
by late september to early november, depending on your latitude and the strain you've chosen to cultivate(sativa takes longer to mature- Indica is the way to go) you can harvest some mighty tasty bud.

[Zenlitened]

130. Did I say high-grade weed could be grown in a window planter?

No, I did not. You said that, putting words in my mouth or (as seems more likely) confusing the thoughts ricocheting around your head with the actual terms of an online discussion. Again.

For some people, the pot one can grown in a window planter is perfectly adequate. For other people, simple indoor-growing kits are a way to grow higher-grade plants. Still others can find space in their backyards, as you've suggested. (Although you haven't described the elaborate security measures you've adopted to keep thieving high-schoolers out. Feel free to give a detailed description, along with your street address and the name of the city in which you live.) Would it be nice to be able to pick up a pack of joints at the corner store? Sure, but that seems a ways off.

But please, tell me more about what I know and what I don't, what I've said and what I haven't, what level of adulthood I've reached, etc etc. I initially made a simple point about an interim step toward legalization of marijuana. You jumped in with defensiveness, paranoia and hostility. Doesn't really put the pro-marijuana contingent in a good light, does it?

Done with you.

[LiberallyInclined]

138. i don't need any type of security system for my patch-

other than a nice tall fence around my yard- nobody has any reason to suspect it's there. However- if it were legal to grow, more people would, and that would lead to people raiding other people's gardens- it's just a little thing called common sense...try it some time, you might like it... :hi:

btw- ditchweed grown in a planter in a window wouldn't be satisfactory for anyone.
if someone could grow pot legally, why in the world would they want to grow inferior or even mediocre weed? unless maybe they're into headaches and no buzz...
also- you have to make sure to weed the males out at an early stage, or your crop will be useless.

[underseasurveyor]

95. Hydroponic and pre-fab growing set ups come to mind :-)

:smoke: Complete with timed lighting and temp./humidity controls. There's a size to fit any living space, big or small. And the know how? The internets await:-) Taint hard at'tall. Why they don't call it a weed fer nuthin'.

Yep, Randolph screwed us big time. Greedy, lyin' bastard:grr:

(hey:hi: from Iowa Jays ;-) )

[jaysunb]

97. Hey You !!

Hope you are well....

We're keeping it lit for ya here in Cali !! LOL Come see us soon !

Industrial hemp will be the next revelation of the needy and the greedy.
Iowa will the prime location for this venture. This and methanol should become the cause for the young generation.

[mrbassman03]

111. You could say the same thing about tobacco...

It's a plant, it grows out of the ground, it's impossible to tax! Yet, of course, they still do... And it's not easy to grow pot that will produce THC. The plant itself grows fairly easily (it's called weed for a reason) but it is rather hard to get a reasonable amount of THC. Regulating and taxing it seems like the best way to go.

[klyon]

48. You should be able to grow a certain amount for your own use

say 2 pounds a year per person, only sales should be controlled and taxed. I can buy seeds and get taxed for say tomatoes and then save seeds from the crop for next years planting, this should be true for pot also.

KL

[LiberallyInclined]

57. in case you hadn't noticed, pot ain't tomatoes.

marijuana is an intoxicant. there are certain societal costs involved with making it legal- i would have no problem requiring a liscence to grow it legally, even in your backyard.

[K-W]

58. Chocolate and love are intoxicants too.

There is no proof that homegrown marijuana cases ANY societal costs.

And frankly, the government cant make me buy a liscense if I grow for my own use. If it never changes hands, the government has no role in anything.

[LiberallyInclined]

98. the societal costs would come from legalized growing

you'd have to be insane to think that there would be NO societal costs from legal pot- there would be an increase in auto accidents for instance, because not everyone can handle their high...there'd be an increase in police calls by homeowners whose "gardens" had been raided by pot-hungry teens or others who choose not to grow it themselves...there'd be increased absenteeism from work...and so on.

don't get the idea that i'm against legalization- quite the contrary- but i'm not naive enough to actually believe that there would be no societal costs or downside to the idea.

and comparing the intoxicating effects of marijuana to those of "love & chocolate", elvis c., is a lot like fundies who dismiss evolution as a "theory"...anybody can play games with semantics.

[K-W]

103. You are making assumptions with no support.

There is no support for your claim that there would be an increase in auto accidents.

There is no support for your claim of absenteeism.

Pot crazed kids breaking into gardens? That is pure speculation.

I am not saying there would be no societal costs, that would be just as rediculous as claiming that I know the societal costs.

The fact is that we just dont know and all the guessing in the world wont tell us.

I wasnt comparing intoxicating effects, just pointing out that you cant use the fact that something is an intoxicant to support any claims about it.

[LiberallyInclined]

128. there's a lot of support for the claims.

you can take past and present statistics and extrapolate- and you can bet that insurance companies have probably already done this, and use the info to help lobby against legalisation(that's how government works anymore)- for fear that they will be making more payouts if the day ever comes.

and before legalisation can occur, these types of issues will HAVE to be considered and prepared for. we can't and hopefully won't, just blindly legalize it, hope for the best, and see what happens- as that would be extremely short-sighted.

as far as the use of the word intoxicant- it's use was meant to indicate that smoking pot will impair a person's driving ability- perhaps not as acutely nor in the same manner as alcohol- but especially for people who aren't used to it, it can be a dangerous level of impairment.

[K-W]

129. You are lying those statistics do not exist.

Insurance companies, unless they have gained magical psychic powers, cannot possibly have that data. there is not test for marijuana intoxication, there are no statics.

The people who lobbied against legislation misrepresented waht that data meant.

Yes we can just legalize it, BECAUSE IT SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN MADE ILLEGAL IN THE FIRST PLACE

There was no rational reason. It was unconstitutional. It shouldnt be illegal so stop telling me we need to prepare to restore things to the status they are SUPPOSED to have.

The word intoxicant does not mean impairs driving ability, thus your argument is completley bogus.

You have completely invented this, "especially for people who aren't used to it, it can be a dangerous level of impairment." that is pure speculation on your part, you have no evidence.

Look dude, chill. Your just assuming a body of knowledge on marijuana use we dont really have. Common knowledge about Marijuana is derived from government lies and rumors and speculations. There was no way to study its effects because nobody was going to volunteer any information. What little studying that has been done hasnt produced anything conclusive. Predicing the future is pretty hard but there is no legal justification for continuing prohibition and no supported risk that we should worry about.

Marijuana could do all the things you say, but we dont know yet. Its just guesses.

[LiberallyInclined]

142. I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

extensive studies have been done on the effects of pot on motor abilities among other thing, and it does have an effect.

and No, you CAN'T just legalize an intoxicating substance without first preparing for the consequences of that action on your society.

unless of course you're a society of uninformed morans to begin with...

[Zenlitened]

60. I agree, grow-your-own is a good first step.

Makes it a personal matter, not an industry/bureaucracy/regulatory issue.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

124. bullshit, I feel like taxing your cookies and potato chips! why is it

that you feel pot smokers or beer drinkers need to pay more taxes then you do? How about a tax on your not running your 5k run today? You know, that was a pain in the ass for society if you didn't. It means your health care costs will be distributed across to the rest of us and your sick days will impact gross national product. What is the obsession you all have to say it should be legal but punative?

[LiberallyInclined]

143. that's just the way it is, friend.

they're called SIN taxes- if you want to play, you've got to pay.

I'd be all for taxing cookies, potato chips, soda pop and other junk food VERY HEAVILY- i don't eat ANY of that kind of crap.

[w4rma]

119. Food is grown and that's taxed. (nt)

[htuttle]

2. Marijuana is already taxed

If you get busted, they often decide to charge you the marijuana tax on any stash they find (if it's a large quantity). This is in addition to stealing your house, car, etc...

You're supposed to buy tax stamps for it (even though it's not legal), but in reality they are almost impossible to purchase.

[William Bloode]

29. Yup,

They taxed me $10,000 when i was busted.

[underseasurveyor]

93. I've heard about people buying those tax stamps strictly

for their personal stamp collections:smoke: Sounds good to me:thumbsup:

[mrbassman03]

118. The point of that being that pot is not really illegal...

You just need to pay tax on it... The only way you can pay this tax is with these stamps. It brings to mind a story I heard about this. A city (Don't remember which one) changed their tax code, putting forth changes that overrode the state laws banning the sale of marijuana. People set up tables in the street to sell pot. Don't know if it's true, just was reminded of it.

[KamaAina]

4. Prohibition was highly underrated (sarcasm)

Without Prohibition, we wouldn't have had bootleggers, or their souped-up cars, which they used to race now and again, eventually resulting in Nascar.

If you're against Prohibition, you're against Nascar. I ask you once again, Why do you hate America so much?

</sarcasm>

[Melynn]

39. Actually I like NASCAR

And I have to be anal and quibble about your theory about how NASCAR was born.

NASCAR came out of moonshiners racing not bootleggers. Moonshiners kept producing illegal liquor even after Prohibition was repealed in order to evade taxes. So Prohibition had nothing to do with the birth of NASCAR.

Now I know that by liking NASCAR I am in the minority at DU so flame away by calling me a no-knowing, knuckle dragging good old boy. I can take it, I'm a big boy.

P.S. Only 22 days to the Daytona 500!!!

[Warpy]

5. Prohibition doesn't work

The stupid drug war oughta tell you all that much.

[ooglymoogly]

72. oh yes it works

billions and billions for the gop. it works for headless soccer moms. it works for the judiciary the police and courts etc. there is so much money going to pug interests it is mind boggling. its like any war, there are huge profits to be made and those profits are lapped up by unscrupulous pugs and they are not going to give it up

[havocmom]

6. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work and prohibition of pot isn't working.

Legalize it, tax it, educate people better about addictions.

I would rather deal with a pot head over a drunk any day of the week. As annoying as they can be, pot heads are pretty peaceful.

And it is terrible seeing someone with cancer, in unbearable pain and not helped by standard pain treatment denied the relief pot can provide.
It is just barbaric to deny people the use of something which is cheaper and generally less damaging than perscription drugs.

[immoderate]

10. "As annoying as they can be, pot heads are pretty peaceful."

Thanks for the endorsement.:shrug:

--IMM

[havocmom]

19. Gets tiresome having to refill the cookie jar all the time

;)

[CrispyQ]

13. Prohibition of pot is working for me . . .

Can't find a dealer with anything worth smoking! Arghhh!!!! So I resort to tequila, a poor substitute.


A life spent searching for the perfect hashish brownie is a life well spent. ~~Zonker Harris

[UdoKier]

17. I live in SF, it's practically legal here.

There is a medical marijuana store right around the corner from my house. I could tell the doctor I have migraines and get a prescription lickety split. But I'm busy, have two kids, and it just doesn't fit into my life at this point.

But I used it a few times in my early 20s, found it to be enjoyable and harmless, and object to it being illegal for no logical reason whatsoever.

[Blue_In_AK]

38. We're lucky here. Possession of up to 4 oz. of marijuana

is protected by the privacy clauses in Alaska's constitution. However, cops keep on arresting people, they get convicted, and then the conviction gets thrown out when it goes to the Court of Appeals. This has been going on here since 1975. Sometime a while ago, the Fundies pushed through an initiative making pot illegal ... got knocked down by the Court of Appeals again. Now our guv is trying to make it illegal once more ... I don't know what they're so afraid of. Alaska's problems with alcohol are much more serious.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

125. wow. fascinating situation. n/t

[klyon]

49. I personally think a womens right to choose could be expanded

to say we have a right to decide what we put in our own bodies. It would then be the governments obligation to warn us of the safety risks involved in its use, like alcohol, cigarettes and other drugs.

It is my body I should have the right to choose. If I am stupid and smoke cigarettes I will pay, by the same logic if us heroin I will also pay (never seen an old junkie).

KL

[McKenzie]

7. Prohibition is a drugs baron's worst nightmare

the LEA's will never stop drugs coming in because it's too profitable. Legalise it and there will be problems to deal with. But alcohol fucks people up...bigtime. Yet it's legal.

Walk past a cannabis cafe in Amsterdam and try to pick a fight. "Ummm, I'm, like, too stoned maaan. Come back, like, next millennium". Walk into a seedy bar and get ready for serious aggro.

Go figure.

[klyon]

50. I have always thought we should require violent people to

smoke 4 or 5 joints a day to keep them out of trouble. I'm sort of kidding, wouldn't want to waste the good stuff on butt heads but it might help in conjunction with psychotherapy.

KL

[slackmaster]

8. Only interstate commerce of either substance should be taxed

I have a real problem with the federal government collecting tax on beer brewed and consumed within a state.

It has to be one or the other, Since the two drugs are roughly equivalent, they must be treated the same to be fair.

I completely agree with you.

[cags]

9. I can't have alchohol because it gives me migraines so I think

its only fair that no one else can have it either. ;-}

[LiberallyInclined]

24. I can't drink alcohol either, but i don't want to take it away-

from other people...I just want everyone to be able to use the intoxicant of their choice- as long as they don't cause anyone else harm because of it.

[cags]

33. You know I was kidding, Right ;-)b

[Botany]

12. Please expect Bill O'Rielly to pick up and publish this thread

...... Anything to marginalize us.

Pass me the bong ..... a couple of one hits and I will be O.K..


:hippie:

[UdoKier]

18. So, favoring marijuana legalization is "fringe"?

Not where I live...

[DS1]

87. Bill O'Reilly's a hypocritical douchebag and I'll bet he has his vibrator

up his ass right now.

:D

[Undercover Owl]

15. fighting marijuana is a waste of law enforcement's time.

I don't smoke pot, and I don't advocate it for the average person. However, as recreational drugs go, it really doesn't seem any worse than alcohol. It isn't "healthy", but neither is alcohol. One is somewhat more socially acceptable than the other, though marijuana is pretty common.

Deep down I think people are afraid that legalizing marijuana would make the US look like a nation of hippies, or something.
People are afraid that marijuana will transform people into hippies. Once it's legal, EVERYONE will turn into a hair-farming hippy.

[UdoKier]

20. It has been said that it is a value-changing drug...

But I haven't seen it change anyone's values for the worse...

And I've been assaulted by drunken strangers on the street - never by stoners...

[William Bloode]

30. You are correct.

Marijuana can change values because it is thought provoking.

The only think in danger from you ingesting(your choice) marijuana is the fridge, and the snack drawer :D

[K-W]

36. It wouldnt be so thought provoking if it wasnt stigmatized

and lied about.

[K-W]

35. Finding out that your government has lied to you your whole life

about the nature and safety of pot can change values a great dea

But I think the government lying is a bit more of a problem than getting high.

[Zenlitened]

16. How about, as one small step in the right direction...

... make it legal to grow your own in small quantities, legal to buy and sell small quantities of seeds, but still illegal to buy and sell weed itself?


:)

[Kahutec]

21. Why do you think they call it dope?

We used to spend summers in the valley and they grew watermelons by the 100,000's. We would jump the fence and steal watermelons off the abutting farm. They just tasted better because we stole them! If they legalize dope, it would not be as fun to dodge the law! The smokers would drop off dramatically! Mark it down!

[LiberallyInclined]

22. If it's legal to grow, it has to be legal to sell-

otherwise how would people with no way to grow it have access?

something is either legal, or it isn't.

pot should be.

[Zenlitened]

52. "something is either legal, or it isn't"

Well, that's not true. Alcohol is legal for some people and illegal for others.

In any event, I'm describing an initial step. I think it's more likely we'll find agreement on easing marijuana laws, rather than discarding them outright all in one fell swoop.

[LiberallyInclined]

54. It's true for people of legal age

and that's the only group i'm concerned with. Obviously if pot were made legal, it would not be so for minors, so that's not even a question or a part of the issue.
Minors aren't allowed to legally use alcohol or tobacco, so why would anyone think that they would be included in legalized marijuana?

[Zenlitened]

56. Well, it wasn't so obvious to me by your original statement.

What I'm trying to get at is that it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing, either-or situation.

Ideally, the laws could just be revoked and that's that. Politically and strategically, however, I think there's some value in creating mechanisms that would help ensure pot is acquired for personal use only.

Opening the doors to a marijuana industry, of a scope and scale similar to the tobacco and alcohol industries isn't going to fly with a lot of voters. Unfair, it's true, but that seems to be the way it is, for now.

[LiberallyInclined]

62. once you've been an adult for awhile you'll understand...

minors don't matter and don't enter into the thinking. nobody in their right minds would ever think that marijuana legalization would apply to minors as well, so it goes without saying.

obviously.

[Zenlitened]

63. Once I've been an adult for a while? Nice.

Good luck in your quest. I'm sure the "angry stoner" demographic will be proud.

:crazy:

[LiberallyInclined]

67. quest? i have no 'quest'.

but thanks for the well-wishes all the same. :hi:

[Zenlitened]

68. Here's a post that will get deleted, but what the heck.

Are you a troll, or just stoned out of your mind?

[LiberallyInclined]

77. how...zenlitened of you....

oooooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm......

[Zenlitened]

81. This is a riot!

Yer killin' me here!

First you completely overlook the point I'm trying to make, insisting in some self-righteous fit of pique that "Free Mary Jane!" is the only way to go.

Then you fling out an insult about whether I'm an adult or not. Now it's a weak effort to riff on my screen name, though you seem to have completely overlooked the double-entendre.

What's next? Are you going to start yelling "Dave's not here!" ?

:D :D :D

[LiberallyInclined]

100. Free Mary Jane?

where'd i ever say anything like that?

and what exactly is a "self-righteous fit of pique..."?????

(you talk too fancy and high-falutin' for me, oh thou "zenlitened". btw- just what have you got against the gh letter grouping?)

[Zenlitened]

131. *shakes head, swears off subtlety in written communication*

[ProgressiveConn]

110. Actually I don't think that is the case.

At least not here. The university I attended as an undergrad was VERY rural. We could walk around picking shrooms and eating them all day infront of the police. The officers instructed us that it was okay for us to pick and eat them however selling or drying them was illegal.

[LSdemocrat]

23. Why not do both?

[Up2Late]

28. You KNOW!

I bet this ends up on FOX "news" to discredit us again.:argh:

[DrWeird]

31. I'd hope so.

I'd bring us publicity, and it would promote the noble issue of marijuana legalization. In fact, I don't know any intelligent, voting American who disagrees with legalization.

Fuck the squares.

[UdoKier]

43. Seriously, what is up with this?

is advocating a change in a ridiculous law now beyond the pale?

[antigone382]

32. The marijuana plant has so many uses BESIDES its intoxicating qualities.

Hemp can be used as an organic alternative to cotton for making clothes. It can also be used as an organic substitute for many plastics. Marijuana has proven results curing or treating pain, nausea, glaucoma, and even paralysis--and the most common side effect is an uncontrollable desire for funyons. But the corporate drug lords make way too much money off of their chemical compounds to ever allow the public easy access to an easily cultivated plant with so many medicinal qualities.

For the record, I have never used marijuana; I just don't have a desire to do it. However, I know a lot of people who do, and they aren't aimless stoners sitting on couches in their mothers' basements. They have careers. They have families. They go to college. Some have the temerity to take on all three at once. And all of them have goals and ambitions that they're actively trying to pursue, just like anybody else. In fact, a lot of the "potheads" I know are a lot more motivated and hard-working than I am.

Does no one see the irony? We're not supposed to use pot, because it's "bad," even though it is cheap, has a proven track record of thousands of years, and has a very low risk of side effects. Instead, we're supposed to trust the pills that the corporate drug lords sell us at exorbitant prices, with minimum testing, and which frequently prove to be ineffective at best, and harmful or even fatal at worst.

[Pushed To The Left]

37. This is the reason for the drug war!

It's all about $$$$. I have heard that hemp can be used for fuel, and I don't think the oil companies want the competition! They don't want people growing marijuana in their backyard because the corporations don't profit from that. You're supposed to "call your doctor" like the commercial tells you too. The drug war is a complete failure and a total fraud.

[Massacure]

40. Cannibus makes excellent fabric and paper.

Alcohol shouldn't be banned, but it should be taxed more. Cannibus to be smoked can be legalized I suppose, but it has to be regulated. I wouldn't want a stoner driving a car. A lot of them can't even walk a strait line. Ideally it would be used as a to help pain.

[Speed8098]

51. "A lot of them can't even walk a strait line"

What planet are you on?????

Never, again I say, never have I ever seen someone stagger just from smoking pot.

I'm 48 years old, I've been smoking pot for over 30 years.
I'm a homeowner.
I'm a successful sales manager.
My marriage is still strong after 25 years.
I have a very well rounded 14 year old daughter.

LOL, I AM a little overweight.

The lies about weed are just that, lies.

It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Massacure]

102. A person I know smokes pot, and I saw him walking outside

It was winter out, his gloves were half off, his jacket unzipped even though it was about 10 below zero with the windchill. He had a cigerette hanging out of his mouth, and when he dropped it in the snow, he picked it back up and tried to smoke it.

It is a disturbing site to see someone like that who is 15 years old.

Edit: Oh, and this happened about a half hour or so after school let out. I find it hard for someone to get that boozed up in so short of time. I did see him right after school as well.

[K-W]

104. That is the worst argument I have ever read.

Nothing but unfounded assumptions and correlations.

You need to prove, not only that this fella was intoxicated from MJ, but that it caused his behavior.

And as someone who dresses inappropriately for weather often, it is hardly an indicator of anything.

[Massacure]

106. So what do you think it was that cuased such odd behavior?

[K-W]

132. If I could fully explain what caused human behavior, id have a nobel prize

Needless to say marijuana, if it had been used, would have been one of a myriad of factors.

Since obviously you know way more than science does about Marijuana and human behavior, maybe you should apply for a nobel prize? Until then perhaps you shouldnt jump to conclusions because of your personal feelings about certain behaviors and drugs.

[ProgressiveConn]

108. And my dealer...

Is a PhD candidate at Yale who teaches his classes blazed every day.

Although I fully agree with you on not letting people drive high. =)

[klyon]

120. no one I know is advocating drug use by minors

In fact getting it off the "black market" would make it easier to control. Like tobacco and alcohol we could keep it out of young peoples hands. Selling to minors should be a serious offense. Now the minors sell it because they don't really get in trouble. This is one of the unfounded arguments used for years to say it should be illegal. "We have to protect the kids" is what is always said when all other augments have been blown out of the water. The truth is, it is all about money and who is raking it in. How could something that will grow wild (it will grow almost any where) if left unchecked be worth as much as gold? If made legal the price would fall and the black market would be out of business. Why continue this madness? Most people know and support legalization.

KL

[Speed8098]

121. You need to try it

Obviously you have no idea what the effect of smoking a joint is.

I suggest you try it before you make any more comments. You are making yourself look ignorant.

As I teach my daughter, you should never make a comment on a subject you know nothing about. It only makes you look foolish.

You seem like a nice person and I don't want to offend you, but you really do not have any idea what you are talking about.

[UdoKier]

139. I've seen drunk people act much worse than that.

And how do you know he wasn't drinking? Is he retarded? As for the speed, it takes 10~15 minutes to get stoned and the high lasts about1~2 hours, after which one may be tired, but no hangover and few ill effects.

I've never seen people puking and fighting from pot...

[UdoKier]

137. Diffferent people react differently to it, though.

Some people seem to lose all motivation and sit around and do nothing all the time. When I smoked pot occasionally in my early 20s, I enjoyed it immensely, but I felt like I was in a "fog" for a week or so after. Not high, but more absent-minded and less motivated than usual. That's why I stopped using it altogether. I just had too many other things to do and it was a distraction. I got my wife (then girlfriend) to try it and it had NO effect on her at all. Weird.

Anyway, even though I don't use it, I'm familiar enough with its effects on various people that I think it should be legal. Alcohol is much worse.

[K-W]

71. The problem with intoxicated driving.

Isnt the intoxicant.

There is also no scientific evidence to support the idea that pot causes traffic accidents.

It might, but the fact that you feel comfortable assuming it does without any evidence is telling.

The lack of evidence of course is a biproduct of prohibition.

[orpupilofnature57]

84. Any honest person that has used both, cant deny booze makes..

you more of a menace in every way,vehicular,verbally,not to mention aggression wise in general.

[ProgressiveConn]

109. True.

But that doesn't mean we should let people drive stoned. I for one never drive drunk and do my best never to drive high because I know being high makes it hard for me to do two things at once... Such as listen to the radio, talk, and drive all at once. =)

[UdoKier]

140. Driving stoned is definitely dangerous.

It is far too disorienting, and you can get very paranoid.

The one time I ever drove stoned scared the hell out of me, even though nothing happened. It's much better to smoke in a safe place where you can just ride it out.

[sweetheart]

89. Making shit up i see

Actually stoned drivers are more likely to be going slower, and are
not the threat you're making out.

The way to regulate driving is to quit with the blood testing and to
test pure reaction times and coherence. This can be done unofficially
by a police officer "stand on 1 foot" and be admitted to a court by
a video game simulator the police officer can demand the driver take
as a test of reaction times. This actually tests the results and might
catch a lot more people on pain killers, people with hangovers and
low blood sugar levels... but no matter, as the crime is intoxication,
not having smoked weed.

THere is too much focus on the drugs, and not enough on safe driving.
The focus should be returned to the actual measures of safe driving.

[seg4527]

41. legalise it. but you know what's annoying?

Lots of the people who want to make it easier for people to smoke marijuana (and i do think it should be at least decriminalized) want to make it harder for me to smoke a cigarette.

[HEyHEY]

91. I totally agree

[mrbassman03]

116. But you're hurting yourself, dirty lungs... ahhh, just kiddin....

That is a really good point. I think the main thing to consider is addiction potential and harm from the product. Looking at these reasons, pot is a much better choice, but....... nobody should be able to decide what someone has a right to do to themself, and if people want to smoke cigarettes, more power to them. Personally, I would much rather see everyone blazed than smoking cigs, but that's not going to happen soon.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

145. i don't think it's usually the same people, dopers have a live & let live

attitude.

[Dark]

42. Actually, numbers on Alcohol Overdose aren't available.

The only deaths are alcohol IN COMBINATION WITH other substances. Which is BS if you ask me. . .

[UdoKier]

44. i have seen many anecdotal stories of alchohol poisoning and death.

typically, it's young people who "don't know how to take their liquor",

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

146. many documented deaths from etoh overdose. it's common. n/t

[njdemocrat106]

47. If keeping pot illegal meant making booze illegal again...

then I say legalize it, even though I still don't think pot should be legalized except for medical reasons. (If you can't tell, I do enjoy the occasional alcoholic libation ;) )

[K-W]

61. I'm curious.

Considering the fact that the criminilzation of pot violates both our drug laws and our constitution, has no rational purpose, and is a product of racism, and government lies, why exactly do you support it?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. The problem with legalizing other, harder drugs is they cause people

to become psychotic and injure themselves (which is fine) or other(which is unacceptable).

Pot isn't like that though, so legalize it and quit wasting money fighting it.

[K-W]

59. Not many drugs cause psychosis.

Especially not in otherwise healthy people.

[LiberallyInclined]

65. no- it's about addiction and lethal overdoses.

that's why things like heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine should and will stay illegal.

[UdoKier]

141. Yes. Grouping pot with Cocaine, acid, heroin, etc. is ridiculous.

Couldn't me more different. I would never try anything through a needle - opiates are unbelievably addictive, acid can be unpredictable, and even scary.

Pot is such a harmless mellow buzz.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

64. Someone should start a DU NORML group...........

and give folks a forum to discuss these topics. About a year ago I posted in ATA asking if we could have a subforum in JPS (the Gungeon) specifically addressing drug policy as the drug policy issues got lost in all the firearms threads. The response from Skinner was clear that he saw no need to have a forum addressing drug policy. But now that every group under the sun has a thread, why not a group that addresses the fundamental hypocrisy of the drug agenda in this country.

[Zenlitened]

75. There's a Drug Policy forum that seems pretty active...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=218

:)

[CrownPrinceBandar]

85. Oops.

*wipes egg from face*

Hey! Where the hell did that come from! :P

Thanks for the link. I was pretty much a Lounge Lizard until after the election. I 'm still getting the hang of all the new forum locations and splits.

[Zenlitened]

86. Me, too. I keep finding new forums that I didn't know existed.

:hi:

[AllyCat]

69. Legalize it.

The criminalization of marijuana is just stupid. It's a weed. It's like making dandelions illegal (and yes, you can make wine from the little yellow blossoms too).

The "marijauna leads to heavier drug use" is stupid...we could say the same thing about alcohol and cigarettes.

On a roadway, I'd rather meet a stoned person behind the wheel than a drunk.

[K-W]

73. Gateway drug.

Its one of the most insidious lies in the drug war.

Prohibit marijuana and lie about it. Then when people use it, and find out that it wasnt that dangerous, they wonder if they can trust ANY of the drug information in society. This andthe fact that youve forced them into the black market to get pot makes them more likely to buy other drugs on the black market.

So now our justification for prohbiting and lying about Marijuana is that it is a gateway drug, a situation created by the prohibition and lies in the first place.

[Zenlitened]

74. Hey, I smoked a lot of pot in college, and now...

... I'm typing on a Gateway computer. Hmmmmm.... :D :D :D

[LiberallyInclined]

80. most widely ILLEGALLY used gateway drug...

is NOT pot. the VAST majority of drug users started with either cigarettes or alcohol when they were MINORS, making those substances when they started using them just as illegal as pot.

[Telly Savalas]

105. Water is the ultimate gateway substance.

Every heroin addict, every coke addict, and every crackhead consumed water before they moved on to the harder stuff.

[LiberallyInclined]

126. i don't know of anyplace where water is illegal to anyone of any age

the argument over "gateway substances" is about their illegality...that's why used the word quite clearly in my post.

[K-W]

127. No, the argument is that pot naturally corrupts people

so they move on to other drugs, it is an argument against decriminalization. The argument is that if pot is allowed everyone will be sucked into becoming crackheads and smack addicts.

Its rediculous.

[mrbassman03]

113. That's a point I like to bring up...

They use the "gateway drug" thing by saying: Well look, all these people mainlining heroin have smoked pot before! Pot must be the reason for their addiction to heroin! Well, I would bet that most of those people smoked a cigarette or had a beer, like you said. Ridiculous!

[SmokingJacket]

79. Treating it exactly like alcohol is a good idea.

Just as you can brew your own beer, but not sell it, you should be able to grow your own pot. You can't smoke in the car or give it to minors.

Use the existing structure in place for alcohol: sell it in liquor stores, tax it similarly.

Let those Kentucky farmers going out of business because of a drop in smoking grow pot instead.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

88. Roughly equivalent?

One makes people introspective and, sometimes, a little distracted or sleepy, with occasional reactions of anxiety and paranoia. One thousand dollars worth of this substance does not contain enough toxicity to kill an adult human being.

The other has an unpredictable range of effects from mild euphoria to homicidal rage. A quantity costing less than five dollars makes a person incapable of operating a vehicle, and somewhat more will cause a temporary loss of memory. Vomiting is a common side effect, and death by overdose can result from quantities costing less than twenty dollars.

[HEyHEY]

90. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LEGALIZE POT

[orpupilofnature57]

92. Amen!

[underseasurveyor]

94. Here-Here! Amen! Right on Brother HEyHey

:yourock:

[mrbassman03]

114. But think of the Chilllllll-dren!!!! n/t

[Zhade]

96. Legalize. They are not really equivalent.

I know this from past experience - alcohol is far, far more destructive.

I hope no one here actually believes marijuana is a deadly substance...!

[Radical Activist]

101. I think its unfair to call them equivalent

Pot is not chemically addictive like Alcohol and does not cause as many deaths.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

107. it/s not practical to tax it, people will just grow their own, but

so what? We don't have to tax everything do we? No tax on air? Flowers in your garden? No tax on sweet words from your honey. Grass is just like all of the above, god given, non taxable.

[ProgressiveConn]

112. I'm FAR to busy to grow my own high quality plants.

If I could roll into a packy and pick up a pack of prerolled northern lights filled blunts I'd do that anyday over growing my own. It is actually quite difficult to grow indoors. Well for me anyway since I cant even keep my bamboo plants alive.

[paulie5]

115. nobody has ever died from

Nobody has ever died from an overdose of pot. The laws should be changed. People with serious drug habits belong in rehab, not prison.

you'd think that we learned something when prohibition failed. It created more crime and made the gangsters of that time in history very rich.

When will we as a country learn? Tax it and regulate it. At least that way the criminal element will be wiped out. Just like prohibition.


P5

[Cooley Hurd]

134. Welcome to DU, p5

:hi:

Yes, the laws should be changed. However, it'll never happen as long as Big Pharm, Big Tobacco and Big Liquor lobby groups keep the pressure up on congress to keep marijuana illegal.

Just another instance of Corporo-America trying to control our lives...:grr:

[mrbassman03]

117. Couldn't you say the same thing about alcohol or tobacco?

You can grow/brew your own, why doesn't everybody? Convenience. It takes a shitload of work to grow good quality bud. I know I would go to the store to buy some instead of growing it. Though if it were legalized and regulated, I guarantee you wouldn't have SWAT teams busting down your door if you wanted to grow your own.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

122. Well, they can if they want to! If you'd rather pay taxes and buy it,

go for it! Be my guest. Some people buy carrots, and pay for them, and pay taxes on them, and apples too, but others grow their carrots and their apples, and they don't pay taxes on them. Yes, you could impose tax, but you couldn't force people to pay it, unless they felt like it, because if the taxes were prohibitively high, or if people didn't feel like being taxed on it, they would just grow their own.
(PS on edit, I guess in Navada where prostitution is legal they do tax sweet words, but if you see what I mean, it's only taxed if you buy it.)

[Cooley Hurd]

133. I'm a pot enjoyer...

...not a "user," nor an "abuser." I just really like how it makes me feel (m-e-l-l-o-w).

Oh, and I'm a IT professional who consistently receives high marks during his reviews. And my boss knows about my weed enjoyment, since we've gotten high together before...:smoke:

[Walt Starr]

136. It's already legal and taxed via the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937

You just need a government issued stamp in order to graw, posess, or sell it.

Unfortunately, the government hasn't issued any stamps since WWII.