maybe a good thing happened today in Iraq. I dont know

[commander bunnypants]

but maybe.. flame suit on.. sigh

CB

[chelsea0011]

1. And an invasion of Cuba may be a good thing

hell, taking over Canada and Mexico may be a good thing

[Kahutec]

96. At least Canada!

[botchan]

2. I somewhat agree.

I think the path to voting and self government should have been the choice of the Iraqi people and not the US Gov't, but maybe this may work.

I fear that when we leave, unrest will begin. I fear that we may have troops in the M.E. for a long, long, time. I also fear that W's puppet masters want it this way.

[commander bunnypants]

3. probably a civil war

but maybe not. I am trying to be hopeful

CB

[K-W]

7. The US would never let anyone into office who wont play ball.

They would re-overthrow the government first.

Have you people forgotten that Saddam was our ALLY until he stopped playing ball.

[botchan]

14. You must also remember

that we are not "all powerful." We can only control a country as long as the people of that country will allow it. Vietnam was a lesson in that. The issue with Iraqi is that the people have been oppressed for so long that they fear rising up. Today was a good sign that they may be willing to take their future into their hands.

We must not attempt to negate all situations. This is politically a bad move. Finding good in something does not necessarily mean that one agrees with the policies of the administration.

[K-W]

21. That isnt a silver lining its a tragic irony.

Yes it is nice that Iraqi's would vote if they had a real election where the city was locked down and the military that run the streets told you repeatedly to vote. Woohoo.

Your vietnam example is badly chosen. Yes, we had no popular support, no we werent all powerful. But that would only support you if that lack of popular support had translated into a US withdrawl early on or a democratic government replacing the puppet government. It certianly didndt. The US stayed in Vietnam with no popular support for a very long time propping up a government with no people and would have stayed for longer if the people in the US with the votes to hold them accountable had let them.

[botchan]

28. Not true

We were rapidly losing the ability to hold ground in Vietnam. We could have continued to attempt to control them, but we would not have won. The length of the Vietnam conflict only shows that Americans have little ability to force swift policy change within our government.

It is a fallacy to believe that "we the people" ended Vietnam.

[K-W]

29. Regardless, the US left when it could fight no more.

Not when the people stopped supporting them.

I think that US public pressure was a very important factor but you are right in that he way the war went played a very significant role and the pressure alone may not have done it.

It is not a fallacy however to say that the people ended vietnam, just a simplification.

[botchan]

34. So "we people"

must keep real and positive pressure on the government. To remove troops from Iraqi and allow them to self-govern. I am all for that. I believe that the vote today does show some positive attitudes within the country. Many NPR stories were similiar in the last few weeks.

The real problem exists when we leave. Can these few positives hold up against the outside factors that will most likely come pouring in (Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabi, Iran, UAE, etc...)?

We must show a positive side to our party. I believe this to be very important.

[K-W]

36. So our party needs to lie about Iraq to be positive?

Sorry, thats idiotic.

This isnt a real election, it wont elect a legitimate government, they wont make a legitimate constitution.

At the very best we would leave them with an oligarchy masquarading as a democracy.

If you want Iraq to be a democracy, fake elections and fake governments are not the best route.

[Dangerman]

43. Ament to that K-W.

[Ms. Clio]

73. "We can only control a country as long as the people of that country

will allow it."

Ask the Native Americans about the validity of that statement.

[springhill]

81. We aren't leaving.

We are never going to leave Iraq.

[quiet.american]

4. I understand where you're coming from --

And in an attempt to be fair and objective about the whole mess, I reflected upon it myself.

The thing which stops me from labelling it good, though, is that it is such a sham. On top of which the Iraqi people are replacing one murderous thug with another, except this time they get a two-fer, since Allawi the murderous thug is the puppet of Bush the murderous thug... all at the unnecessary cost of the lives of thousands and thousands of their fellow citizens, and our troops' blood... then millions of Iraqis did not even vote, because it was too dangerous to even think of doing so... and Halliburton still has the oil, farmers are forbidden to plant their own seed so Bushco can line their pockets further.... and on and on it goes.

So, I still cannot look at it as a genuine good thing.

[epinephrine384]

5. Yeah. It was good.

At least it showed that that the Iraqi's aren't afraid to stand up to whacks like Zarqowi and his band of brothers. And they're braver than I am. A suicide bomber blew himself up outside a polling station and poll workers started to shut it down, but Iraqi's waiting in line to vote pressured them to stay open so they could vote. My son's a linguist and transmitted a bunch of pictures home. This vote reminded me of my life in Israel, waiting in line, hoping you or your family won't be blown up by a boom boom boy.

[commander bunnypants]

8. love your handle btw

I have been fully against this war. but i am trying to find some good

cb

[K-W]

12. The only thing we should seek to find is the truth.

With so much misinformation around, its dangerous to open yourself to emotional manipulation if you use any other standard.

[K-W]

9. Too bad its an illigitamate election.

Mandated by the local occupying army.

[K-W]

6. Why do you try to live in a dream world?

There is no chance in hell the Bush administration intends this election as anything more than a trick.

[rman]

10. "don't know, maybe" a good thing - so more likely not a good thing?

-

[Jawja]

11. I have the same thoughts, too,

about the people showing up to vote being a good thing. And I see that they actually voted on paper into a ballot box and their vote is more likely to be counted than OUR vote.

However, this is still at gunpoint and the violence will continue.

[LisaL]

18. What did they even vote for?

They have hundreds of candidates. I am not sure they even know the names of the candidates. How do they vote in that situation?

[commander bunnypants]

13. you weekend du folks tough crowd

i have flames coming from all sides :)

crap i dont even know what to say. but dammit cant i even have some hope?

CB

[warrior1]

15. well

no flames but. It is a farce.

Hell, we can't even have our elections be valid, having everyone's vote's count. It's a farce here and in Iraq.

I believe none of this.

[K-W]

16. Hope for a better future, not rose tinted glasses.

I Hope that the US is forced to withdraw by some force, that the Iraqi's avoid civil war, and that they can, eventually, swing thier government into a true democracy.

I dont hope that reality is nicer than it is.

[leftchick]

23. Wake up and LOOK at what the US is doing in Iraq!!

Not what they SAY what they are doing. The US is building a Permanent Presence in Iraq.....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2281&ncid=742&e=5&u=/thenation/20050118/cm_thenation/132132


Though the media ignored Kerry's statement and failed to do any substantive follow-up research, his comments were well-grounded in reality. On the day of the debate the Christian Science Monitor spotlighted the findings of defense specialist John Pike, whose website, GlobalSecurity.org, located twelve "enduring bases" in Iraq, including satellite photos and names. In March, the Chicago Tribune reported that US engineers were constructing fourteen such long-term encampments--the number Kerry referred to. The New York Times previously placed the number at four.


While the exact figure may change, suspicions of undisclosed US imperial plans--exemplified by permanent military bases--rightfully linger. Before the war, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz suggested moving US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia into Iraq. In October, a survey by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes found that two-thirds of respondents disapproved of a permanent military presence, even though more than half thought the US would build the bases anyway.


Now comes a report in the New York Sun by Eli Lake revealing that the Pentagon (news - web sites) is building a permanent military communications system in Iraq, a necessary foundation for any lasting troop presence. The new network will comprise twelve communications towers throughout Iraq, linking Camp Victory in Baghdad to other existing (and future) bases across the country, eventually connecting with US bases in Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Afghanistan (news - web sites).


"People need to get realistic and think in terms of our presence being in Iraq for a generation or until democratic stability in the region is reached," Dewey Clarridge, the CIA (news - web sites)'s former chief of Arab operations (and Iran-contra point man), told the Sun.


The fabled "exit strategy" may be not to exit.

[botchan]

30. I don't think the point is

I don't think the point is agreement with our policies, it is an attempt to see something good. Maybe the people of Iraq, maybe, will be able to someday (without our interference) support and protect a government of their choosing.

I believe the intent of the original post was to try to start finding positives. We (democrats) must start projecting a positive future platform.

[K-W]

33. Someday isnt today, so what on earth are you talking about.

The Iraqi ability to someday hold a real election has nothing whatsoever to do with today.

These people arent cave men, they know what democracy is, we cant justify this as a dry run in democracy using a fake election.

[botchan]

40. The future is always

The future is always the actions of today. I never said, "democracy." I want them to choose a government. Our leaders (well, half the country if our election was right), have chosen democracy for them. A socialist government may be their choice. It is not for me to say.

I feel that their willingness to go out today is a good thing. There have been no reports (I listen to NPR too much) that I have heard that say people were dragged from their homes and forced to vote. Maybe these will come out later, but I prefer to hope that they came out because they want self-government.

[K-W]

46. Setting up fake elections for a US client state

is not an action that leads to democracy in the future.

You are buying into a myth.

YES IT IS GOOD THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO VOTE

But that isnt that big a deal, people are generally willing to vote, they generally like the idea, in a situation like this they have no other option to influence thier future, so yes they vote, thats fine.

Did you think they were cavemen that the wonderful US had to teach about democracy? These people know what elections are, they dont think they are voting for thier future. They arent children.

They are voting because it is the only choice the US occupation has given them. That does not legitimize the election anymore than a slave working legitimizes slavery.

[Ms. Clio]

76. Really--too bad the Confederates didn't think of that

They should have let their slaves "vote" on secession. Then they could have crowed about the "legitimacy" of the system.

[K-W]

78. Stupid confederates, if you dont call them slaves,

you can pretend they arent.

[leftchick]

38. wtf are you talking about?

did you read what I posted? The USA is Planning a PERMANENT PRESENCE in Iraq! Iraq will be OCCUPIED! How the fuck do Iraqis stand a chance as long as they are being occupied and slaughtered daily? :eyes:

[salin]

39. While I have vehemently opposed our policies

and actions in Iraq... I have always hoped that some sort of peace could eventually be reached. I still do. But right now, it looks like naive hope, as our policies have mucked up a bad situation and, I fear, made it worse.

Let's say there is good turnout. Let's even say that the outcome wasn't manipulated by the US. Yes, that is good. However, security on the ground is reportedly awful - not just due to insurgents - but also out of control crime. Employment is lower than before the invasion - leaving more people even more economically at risk and more susceptable to joining either the insurgency or the crime wave. Services such as basic utilities are reportedly worse than in the preinvasion... Then throw in the natural ethnic and geographic divisions in the country - in a time of great security and economic instanbility... Frankly - even if all was great with the election - I just can't perceive how things will get any better than the current situation (which is not good), and sadly can see how things could further deteriorate.

So on a completely spiritual level - I still hope that this is the beginning of a good thing... however on an intellectual level I can't fathom how it will begin to move things towards a more stable and peaceful reality for those on the ground there.

[leesa]

17. Why would you think that?

[Darranar]

19. Maybe. And maybe Bush is the best president we have ever had...

negligible chance, though.

[GetTheRightVote]

20. NO way, No how, is this a fair election, if by shot gun, No way

They may think they are voting but they are no more voting then we did in our own stolen election. Remember who ran this election and by shot gun to boot. Let us not be drawn into the lies & deceit of the * admin like we were in the past, 2000 & 2004 elections, the Iraq War to get Americans to accept it. Once someone lies then you can only assume they will always lie to get what they want out of anyone and that includes the Iraqians. * means them no more good then he means for our soldiers in this battle. Never forget the bigger picture, all these events are related and there is a bigger plan that we may not be aware of in the * plans. * wants to conquer that part of the world so he will deceive us all in his reach for these goals. Watch in the days to come and you will see * plans unfold before your eyes, but be ready for it as well.

:kick:

[commander bunnypants]

22. sinking sinking sinking

i am gonna go shower and clean up the ice on the cars
yall have a good day

CB

[stray cat]

24. Iraqis died for their right to vote.

It took more courage and will than I think I have. For the sake of the Iraqis I hope this election leads to success. I also don't know. However, my wish for Iraqis is stronger than my dislike of Bush. I hope Bush can get his act together to make the elections mean something good for the Iraqis. After what they have been through they certainly deserve it.

[Red State Rebel]

44. Thats how I feel also. Good for them!

I have 2 relatives in Iraq right now and the stories they tell contradict a lot of the doom and gloom I read on here.

This was an historical vote - the first time an Arab country has EVER had the chance to vote for their leadership. I personally think that has less to do with Bush and more to do with the strong will and determination of these people to persevere in the face of some pretty rough circumstances. Again - good for them!

[Balbus]

64. Yes, the people of Iraq deserve all the credit!!

The bravery and courage they showed today by risking death to their selves and their loved ones is eye-opening indeed.

[poe]

45. Iraqis aren't dying they are being murdered-elections mean nothing-read on

A Brief Guide to the Iraqi Elections
E-mail this
Print this
Jo Wilding, Electronic Iraq, 29 January 2005



1. Iraqis are voting not for a party or an individual but for a list.
• There are a very few individuals and parties standing as such but the majority are part of lists. There is, for example, a 'main Shia list' and several other Shia lists, some Kurdish lists, and so on.
• The lists contain, between them, over 7000 candidates, many of whom are not even named for security reasons.
• That means people are more or less compelled to vote not according to the credibility or policies of a person or party but for an ethic group, a national group or a religious faction.

2. Iraqi people have no opportunity to elect their president or prime minister.
• The elections will create a 275 member National Assembly which will select a 3 member presidency council, which in turn will select a prime minister. It's assumed, but nowhere stated in the 'transitional law' that these selections would come from among the 275 elected members.

3. None of the elected members of the National Assembly will represent a locality.
• Former US viceroy Paul Bremer decided the entire country should be a single constituency so the electoral system creates a national proportional representation.
• Anyone who gets a 275th of the vote will get a seat, regardless of how many others are elected from their city or province.
• The system creates a likelihood of over-representation at the national level for groups which turn out in high numbers. For example, in Kurdistan, where security is much better and people are more in favour of the elections, far more people are likely to vote, giving the Kurds greater representation than their numbers warrant. Of course, they were unrepresented, to all intents and purposes, for decades (thanks to Winston Churchill and all who followed him) but the solution isn't to simply shift the inequalities.
7. Certain parties and individuals have also been funded by the US.
• The International Republican Institute, an organisation linked to the US Republican party has been funding certain groups in their campaigning, giving a massive advantage.
• It is also believed to be organising the exit polls.
• It orchestrated, among other things, the coup in Venezuela.

8. Whoever wins, the occupation will go on.
• The US has built enormous bases in Iraq which it has no intention of withdrawing from.
• The US has already spent more than $100,000,000,000 on the war in Iraq – that's a hundred thousand million to most of us, a billion to the US. Bush is requesting another 80 thousand million dollars to carry on.
• US officials, mainly remaining anonymous, have made it abundantly clear that the elections are free only within the parameters set by the US government. The US is prepared to 'tolerate' a limited form of theocracy, according to one.
• Iraqi candidates are aware that there are 'red lines' as an unnamed Shia official put it – the election winners will not be at liberty to set any policy they choose.
The new government is already bound.
• The next plebiscite (on a permanent constitution) has to be held under Bremer's law too: any three of the eighteen governorates can veto the constitution, even if the constitution wins 90% of the total vote.
• It was unlawful for Bremer or the occupying powers to enact any laws, because an occupier is not allowed to change the laws of the country seized. Nevertheless, Bremer ruled, and the interim governing council signed into law, that everything in Iraq is to be privatised, open to 100% foreign ownership or at least foreign leasehold for forty years. That includes resources, amenities and public services.
• Because of the lack of security, little has yet been sold off but the law, though illegitimate, is expressed as binding on future governments.
• Iraq is the most indebted country in the world in terms of its debt to export ratio. Saddam's wars built up massive debts, now at $180 billion. Western countries and the IMF were happy too carry on funding Saddam with loans and to sell him weapons, including the chemical weapons and related hardware to attack the Kurds. Added to that are compensation claims ($30 bn) from the invasion of Kuwait, mainly 'owed' to incredibly wealthy oil companies and such like. Now, with the constant addition of compound interest throughout the sanctions, when Iraq was unable to pay off any debts at all, the debt is immense.
• The Paris Club and others have agreed to a package of debt relief which is linked to a programme of 'structural adjustment' whereby Iraq has to follow Argentina, Romania and others into disastrous policies of global capitalism. 30% of debt relief is unconditional, 30% depends on adopting a 'standard IMF policy' and 20% hangs on a three year review of implementation of the IMF policy. Iraq hasn't got any bargaining power to resist.
• Two of the IMF's conditions are the 'opening up' (read cheap sell off to Bush's pals) of the Iraqi oil industry and the rollback of the food ration, currently the only major social welfare programme, presumably because it means people with no money get stuff free instead of paying for it. The leading candidates have agreed to all this – that's why they got the money to become leading candidates.
• The debts left over after the promised, but conditional, relief are still more than enough to keep Iraq in servitude for many, many decades to come.

10. Iraq has no free press.
www.electroniciraq.net

[underpants]

25. It's good that they can vote but this IS NOT the reason for the war

W&Co. are trying to rewrite history since they main reasons they gave predictably fell apart.

[K-W]

26. It's a good thing that they are WILLING to vote. Keyword: willing.

They are not really voting. This is not a real eleection. Real elections are free and independent.

[commander bunnypants]

57. think we will be off tommorow?

cb

[underpants]

83. No

the ice is melting in blocks

[slackmaster]

27. The Iraqis who run my local pizza place were partying yesterday

So were the Iraqis who own the convenience store up the street from my home.

I'll defer to their opinion on whether or not a good thing is happening in Iraq.

[K-W]

31. Did they have any risk of dying today?, tommarow?

We should ignore the fact that the illegally occupied nation of Iraq is having an illigitamate election, run by an illigitate government, and at gunpoint because some Iraqi expats who live near you are happy?

[slackmaster]

41. Yes, everybody has a risk of dying today or tomorrow

We should ignore the fact that the illegally occupied nation of Iraq is having an illigitamate election, run by an illigitate government, and at gunpoint because some Iraqi expats who live near you are happy?

Yes, I think we should.

Given the present situation in the country, what would YOU have us do rather than proceed with the process of allowing Iraqis to make up their own minds about what kind of government they have?

Under Saddam Hussein they had no choice.

[K-W]

48. This isnt a real election, so what on earth are you talking about.

Why are you arguing as if this was a real election. This is the appointed government of an illegal occupation running an illigitimate election where people vote blindly for people who have already agreed to play ball with the US.

[slackmaster]

50. Every major societal change in history has been illegal and illegitimate

From the perspective of those who want to keep it from happening.

[K-W]

51. So you are accusing me of opposing Iraqi democracy?

Personal attacks are always a sign of confidence in ones argument.

These arent legitimate elections because they arent legitimate. If you believe that you have to believe that the invasion was legitimate, which means you have no concept of international law or democracy.

[slackmaster]

54. I'm not accusing you of anything

Every revolution, every societal upheaval in history has been illegitimate and illegal.

If you believe that you have to believe that the invasion was legitimate, which means you have no concept of international law.

It's too late to un-do that mistake.

[K-W]

58. Thats exactly what you accused me of.

Nobody is talking about undoing any mistakes.

This is quite simple if you really care to know the truth.

We illegally invaded an occupied Iraq.
We selected a government for them of people close to us that did nothing to take any control away from the US. This government under the direction of the US is holding an election where they control who is on the ballot and who votes. There were no campaigns outside of terrorists threatning them not to vote and US soldiers telling themt o vote.

Meanwhile the US has been openly saying we will be in Iraq after the election possibly for years. It is a forgone conclusion that we will stay because the Iraqi government is in our pocket.
This is a farce.

You are arguing that this vote is represntative of true democratic reforms, that is rediculous. Iraqi's arent children, they dont need fake elections to teach them about the wonders of democracy.

[slackmaster]

62. Yes, we illegally invaded and occupied Iraq

Given the present circumstances, what would you do about it?

Meanwhile the US has been openly saying we will be in Iraq after the election possibly for years. It is a forgone conclusion that we will stay because the Iraqi government is in our pocket.

It's going to take years to fix Iraq's security problems.

Iraqi's arent children, they dont need fake elections to teach them about the wonders of democracy.

If you have a better plan please post it.

[K-W]

67. If you support US control of Iraq, fine.

But that makes you a supporter of our government committing war crimes, and frankly I cant get behind that.

[slackmaster]

68. Still nothing resembling a better plan

:argh:

[K-W]

71. Withdraw the illegal occupation.

Rather than illegally rigging the Iraqi government.

That is a better plan so obvious I cant imagine you havent heard it before.

[slackmaster]

97. I believe the probability of a civil war would be 100% if we withdrew

And we'd be blamed for causing it.

That is a better plan so obvious I cant imagine you havent heard it before.

Sure, I've heard it before. It's so simplistic and stupid I didn't think anyone considered it a serious possibility.

Remember the Pottery Barn principle: We broke it, we own it.

[posehound]

32. Bingo

Right on target, Slackmaster. It ain't about us anymore. We want out of Iraq, we have to ensure that the social/political/economic/security infrastructure is self-sustaining. It doesn't matter, now, how we got here, IMHO, let's hurry up and get it done right so the folks can come home.

[K-W]

35. Its about a handful of ex-pats?

Stupid me, I thought it was about the Iraqi people who are being killed.

This isnt a real election, take your blinders off for goodness sake and look around.

[slackmaster]

42. We have over 25,000 Iraqis in San Diego County

And it's only the third largest group of Iraqi ex-pats in the USA.

Spin them as a handful of recalcitrants who just couldn't get with Saddam's wonderful program if you wish, but a large percentage of them are academics, physicians, writers, and artists who left to avoid being killed or tortured for their political views.

[K-W]

47. I didnt spin them as anything.

They live the same distance from Iraq as you do. And while thier connections to it do give them some credibility, they are still a world away relying on limited information. They are also not at risk of dying tommarow.

Not to mention that this whole election thing resembles a good thing so well that it is very easy to fall for it, especially if you have a deep loving hope for the future of Iraq.

The fact is that while your recounts of the attitudes of ex pats is valuable information, it just doesnt stand up against the facts supporting the fact that this is a completely illigitimate election meant to design a government that the US can control so they can step back into a lesser role in the war and gain international legitimacy for the military and trade agreements it forces upon Iraq.

[slackmaster]

52. They have better information than you or I do

I'm talking about people who have friends and family still in the country. A lot of them would have left as well given the opportunity, the money, and the courage to leave.

...a completely illigitimate election meant to design a government that the US can control so they can step back into a lesser role in the war and gain international legitimacy for the military and trade agreements it forces upon Iraq.

You're saying that is a bad thing?

[K-W]

55. THAT ISNT DEMOCRACY

A government beholden to a foriegn government isnt democracy.

And once again, being Iraqi and knowing Iraqi's doesnt make people into magical wizards with infiniate objective knowledge.

Yes it is certainly something to consider, but as evidence it just isnt strong enough to override the case that theses elections are illegal and meant to further Iraq subservience to the US.

[slackmaster]

56. A true state of democracy is not possible there right now

The country has too many security problems. They have to start somewhere.

At least a process that MIGHT lead to true democracy is now underway. Among all the people decrying the legitimacy of this process I have yet to see one of them come up with a better plan.

[K-W]

60. How is fake democracy going to do anything but discourage them

from trying real democracy.

Wont it just continue to encourage them that democracy is a western trick and Islam is the only truth?

[slackmaster]

63. I'll put this challenge to you one more time

Do you have a better plan?

If so, let's see it.

[K-W]

69. The US withdraws its illegal occuption.

Iraq becomes exactly what its supposed to be, an instable independent nation. They have an infrastructure and they might very well be able to solve this without a civil war. If they cant, the UN security council has the authority to send in a peacekeeping force and the UN can run a truely legitimate nation building operation because it is bound by rules and tends to respect them.

that is a much better chance at democracy than running a US mock election and pretending it made iraq more democratic

[poe]

37. nope-read on-CPA Executive Orders Stand

it's a dog and pony show meant to lend credence to war criminals and obscure the real issues -For the record:"US declares Iraqis can not save their own seeds" .As part of sweeping "economic restructuring" implemented by the Bush Administration in Iraq, Iraqi farmers will no longer be permitted to save their seeds, which include seeds the Iraqis themselves have developed over hundreds of years. Instead, they will be forced to buy seeds from US corporations. That is because in recent years, transnational corporations have patented and now own many seed varieties originated or developed by indigenous peoples. In a short time, Iraq will be living under the new American credo:
Pay Monsanto, or starve ."

"The American Administrator of the Iraqi CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) government, Paul Bremer, updated Iraq's intellectual property law to 'meet current internationally-recognized standards of protection'. The updated law makes saving seeds for next year's harvest, practiced by 97% of Iraqi farmers in 2002, and is the standard farming practice for thousands of years across human civilizations, to be now illegal.. Instead, farmers will have to obtain a yearly license for genetically modified (GM) seeds from American corporations. These GM seeds have typically been modified from seeds developed over thousands of generations by indigenous farmers like the Iraqis, and shared freely like agricultural 'open source.'"
According to Order 81, paragraph 66 - , issued by L. Paul Bremer , the people in Iraq are now prohibited from saving seeds and may only plant seeds for their food from licensed, authorized U.S. distributors.

The paragraph states, "Farmers shall be prohibited from re-using seeds of protected varieties or any variety mentioned in items 1 and 2 of paragraph of Article 14 of this chapter."

Written in massively intricate legalese, Order 81 directs the reader at Article 14, paragraph 2 to paragraph of Article 4, which states any variety that is different from any other known variety may be registered in any country and become a protected variety of seed - thus defaulting it into the "protected class" of seeds and prohibiting the Iraqis from reusing them the following season. Every year, the Iraqis must destroy any seed they have, and repurchase seeds from an authorized supplier, or face fines, penalties and/or jail time."
www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA501A.html

Guess who wins the elections?

Monsanto World Headquarters
800 North Lindbergh Boulevard
St. Louis, Missouri 63167
Phone:[phone]

By going against Iraq first, we seized the Middle East's premiere water supply. And in pitting various Middle Eastern regimes one against the other for the last few decades, in exhange for arms to protect themselves from the new "enemies" we created, we transformed them from agriculturally self-sufficient countries to countries dependent on our good whims to feed their people. The Iran/Iraq war we manufactured was instrumental in this. One of the first corporations to get contracts in Iraq was Monsanto. Syria is very dependent on our good whims no matter how much they don't like it.
-Tinoire
Water and food.

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. Only time will tell

[slackmaster]

53. Right on

It will be many years before we really know.

[commander bunnypants]

59. yes

a generation or two.. After the crap of the past four years, I vote for hope out of this tragedy?

CB

[K-W]

61. How is a fake election for a US puppet government

a step towards anything good.

Fake democracy does not encourage real democracy.

[commander bunnypants]

66. hope man. just fucking hope

ok. sorry to get your panties in a knot. but i just fucking choose hope. we are in WW4 and I am scared for the generaions to follow me. so hope. no rose colored glassess or sticking my head in the sand. So far I lost over 1400 brothers and sisters in this abomination. I wont let there memory be lost. HOPE FOR A BETTER WORLD. however fleeting that may be. Peace brother

CB

[K-W]

74. That isnt hope, stop calling it hope.

Hope is thinking the world can be better in the future.

Hope is not pretending it is better now.

You are very mistaken. You think that setting up a puppet government is a step in the right direction. I dont know why you think this, but it just isnt true. This isnt real democracy, this is a farce, a show. All a part of the naturalization of us controlling Iraq. We have an election, we start referring to it as aid to Iraq, we push it out of sight out of mind and hopefully produce a brutal enough regime that they can suppress resistance. We control thier oil and thier petrodollars and we move on to venezuala.

Only the UN or the Iraqi people can build a legitimate nation. The US couldnt do it if it wanted to, and it doesnt want to. The people in the whitehouse have a clear track record on this.

[botchan]

65. Hope

is not a word that is very well liked around here. We must try and make them see that having hope for the Iraqi people is not the same as giving credence to the policies of the current administration. They are two separate items.

[commander bunnypants]

70. dammit

i give up. What is wrong with hope. Yes Bush is the king. but it wont last forever. Hope for abetter day? I am an opptimist. I choose hope over despair. For my new nephews, my sick ma, my wife, for the baby I am trying to make. Mo Catt and Squeaky Girl. WE MUST HAVE HOPE!!!!!!

CB

[K-W]

75. You are misusing the word hope to justify dellusion.

There is no connection between hoping for a better future in iraq and believing that these elections are a step in the right direction.

One is optimism, the other is a lie.

[commander bunnypants]

79. I disagree

but peace and karma for you and your family. and now I am gonna go to the lounge and find a recipe for prime rib..

:bounce:

CB

[K-W]

82. Get a dictionary.

This isnt a matter of opinion. Hope isnt arguing for a more optmistic version of the present, hope is the wish for a better future.

To pretend that hope has something to do with evaluating the present is to be disigenous.

[commander bunnypants]

86. yo 1-31-05 is the future

got a recipe for prime rib?

CB

[K-W]

88. You dont have to predict the future to know

that the election is an illigitimage farce. The Bush administration didnt leave it up to chance.

[commander bunnypants]

89. ok KW- we disagree

no prob. but where is my prime rib recipe?

I am hungry

cb

[K-W]

91. What do you disagree with?

Specifically.

Do you disagree that this is an illegal occupation?
Do you disagree that this is an illegal election?
Do you disagree that that phoney elections are bad commercials for democracy?
Do you disagree that a US puppet government is not a step toward Iraqi's controlling thier own destiny?

This isnt a matter of feeling, this is a matter of fact. Do you not want to know the truth?

[commander bunnypants]

92. peace my friend

I agrree. bad war, bad coalition govt, probably bad election. but look to 1-31-05, maybe something good might happen!!. Hope was what this original post was all about. BTW- Huge UN supporter,

CB-thats all

[K-W]

93. What do you hope will happen? If you want me to hope, give me some.

What good could possibly come of this election?

[commander bunnypants]

94. where is my prime rib recipie?

still cant spell that word. I just got to hope that is all.. In something anymore

CB

[Ms. Clio]

85. Excellent posts throughout this thread

I am so disgusted with all the phony "optimists" (especially the low-post-count happy Iraqi trolls who are suddenly swarming here) that almost anything I would post right now would be deleted.

But you manage to argue thoughtfully and persuasively and without ad hominems--very impressive.

[mattclearing]

72. I agree. I'd like to hope for the best.

One would hope we could take this stunning democratic achievement as an opportunity to declare victory and bring the troops home.

I'm holding my breath as of now...







*cough**cough*

Oh well. It was worth a try.

[shrike]

77. The shias and kurds voted in droves, the sunnis didn't

No big surprise, actually.

[K-W]

80. The Kurds, our allies, and Shias, the majority

voted in an election designed to favor those groups, when the majority shia leadership has already shown that they will agree to the government the US wants.

[Fleshdancer]

84. I hope all this happy news means our soldiers come home soon

I'm not holding my breath though.

[Ms. Clio]

87. It's a good thing you aren't

Because they're not.

[springhill]

90. No, it is not a good thing..........

If there is 100% voter turnout and everything is so excited about the emerging democracy, I will be pissed. Because it will only mean that it will give Bush validity to do the same thing in any other country he deems "evil". Now, do I think realistically that everything will be great in the long term, no.

If people in this country are impressed with this imperialist venture, they will support more just like it. And we will have wars up the gazoo. No, I don't want invading countries and turning them into democracies and good little Christians to continue.

Are democracies a good thing? Yes, if it's in more than name only. But achieving them throught force is not, and I fear that a success here will give them their mandate to continue on this path.

[gizmo1979]

95. I'll have to say

I don't know if it's good or bad,but I saw tape of a polling place in Baghdad and a single woman walked up to vote.I had to say to myself,you go girl,that took some balls.Made me proud of democracy for a second.

[slackmaster]

98. It took some OVARIES for the woman to vote

Not balls.

:argh:

[ConcernedNonpartisan]

99. The end justifies the means?

I have the feeling that we have strayed from the most important point.

No matter how "good" (or bad) things turn out in Iraq, the most significant fact (to me, anyway) is, we invaded a nation without provocation! Ask in any court of this land if it is permissible to physically attack another person because of their words or because you "thought" they would do something bad in the future.

This "criminal" act has resulted in the death of 1400+ American soldiers, an unknown number of Iraq civilians, and an unknown number of "others" (including coalition forces).

What next? If preemptive strikes work with nations, then maybe, just maybe it would work for potential drug dealers. Carjackers. Burglars. etc. Lets do "profiling" in the maternity wards.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I was taught and firmly believe that "the end does not justify the means!".