A question about veganism

[LibInternationalist]

what is the problem with eating organic & free range eggs and dairy products? and do vegans use wool (again, what is the problem with it if not -- if they do, what is the difference between wool and dairy products)

I ask as someone who has stopped eating all animals except fish occasionally

[ashmanonar]

1. veganism isn't so much a diet but a political stance.

as far as i see, it's like saying that you don't want any animal to be held captive (for wool) or harvested for food or hide (leather), or even used to produce eggs or milk. it's an extreme of PETA's agenda...

[China_cat]

5. But they won't even look at things

like the story about the sheep that got lost before shearing time and when found 6 months later was carrying 60 POUNDS of wool and was so encased that he could no longer bend his head down to eat. Was close to the point of not even being able to move.

That's ok with them. I don't know if it's still there but PETA's web site used to declare their objection to wool was that the sheep got 'embarassed' by being sheared.

You're supposed to take something like that seriously?

[ashmanonar]

22. well, i don't agree with a vegan lifestyle.

i'm just saying what seems to be their opinion.

personally, i believe that these animals are so domesticated by humans that they wouldn't survive in the wild. now that we've changed their chances of living in the wild, it's our duty to take care of animals.

i don't take veganism seriously at all, especially the really really crazy PETA stuff. being a vegetarian, even avoiding animal products is the choice of the person, but it's not for me.

[Kenneth ken]

23. I would look at that story as

man's abuse of and indifference to the suffering and exploitaion of animals. Sheep evolved to being woolen-coated in nature; man found use for wool, and so in the name of efficiency and profit, bred sheep that produce more wool, and of textures pleasing to man. This over many decades, if not centuries. Clearly from your story, in nature, an overabundance of wool offers no benefit to the sheep, so it is only through human-controlled breeding techniques that such a sheep occurs.

Then, in the case you cite, man's carelessness caused the sheep to be overlooked at shearing time.

From what I know of PeTA, they would seek an evolution to a more natural world, with humans as a species interconnected with the world, not a world dominated by humans exclusively for the benefit of humans.

It isn't all that difficult to look at the world as it is, and recognize that human dominance does not serve the long-term best interests of the planet, or anything living on it - including humans.

Ideally, humans would interbreed sheep to produce less wool, back to a degree where sheep could survive a lifetime without needing regular shearing, and then stop the "man"agement of all sheep.

[K-W]

2. The ethical foundation

is that animals should be free in thier own habitats living lives, not contained and exploited by people.

[CindyDale]

3. So hunting is kinder than domesticating?

[K-W]

12. Shooting an animal is not letting it be free. EOM

[Stop_the_War]

4. I'm vegan......

I don't eat animal products because of the ethical reasons. But there are health reasons also. Most doctors will tell you that any kind of egg is extremely bad for your heart, it has loads of cholesterol, in the yellow part (what is it called again?). But the reason we don't eat organic and free range eggs is because the chickens still suffer alot and it's not really "free range". They are only allowed outside for a few minutes then they are taken back in for the whole day. That's all they need to call it free-range. We don't use wool because it's cruel also, I can't really explain but I will show you sites at the end of this post. And dairy is cruel because the cows stand in the same spot for their whole lives getting their breastmilk sucked out of their breasts by a machine, while their calves are slaughtered for veal. This causes extreme emotional pains and extreme arthritis. Also dairy,egg, and meat factory farms are responsible for a huge portion of pollution. Anyways, here are some links that might help you:

Here are some websites from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA):

http://www.savethesheep.com/
http://www.meetyourmeat.com/
http://www.fishinghurts.com/
http://www.goveg.com/
http://www.milksucks.com/
http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=96

[LibInternationalist]

6. I find it hard to believe

that all "free range" claims are as deceitful as you claim

[livinginphotographs]

7. The food industry is like any other industry.

It's concerned with the bottom line, period.

If it's cheaper to maintain a large factory farm (and it is) they'll do it.

Don't expect compassion to get in the way of profits. I'm inclined to believe the above poster.

[Stop_the_War]

8. Hey I'm not trying to lie.......

I just answered your question. I'm not trying to convince you to become vegan or anything. I think it is your decision entirely. I was just presenting what I knew to be true. If you don't believe me, then fine. But remember these are corporations, they think they don't have to be honest about how they treat these animals.

[LibInternationalist]

9. I'm not accusing you of lying

I just think that it's probably possible to find eggs and cheeses that do come from animals that are treated well

[Stop_the_War]

14. well there I agree...

It IS possible to find some eggs and cheeses that comes from places where there isn't much cruelty.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. and you think that cucumbers don't scream when plucked from the vine......

yeast cells scream out in agony when alcohol is dropped on them. it has been recorded and hollywood wants to buy the recordings....cells sing...google it they accually sing and they moan and hiss when they get older or are harmed

[jmowreader]

24. Alcohol isn't "dropped" on yeast cells

Alcohol is "yeast piss."

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. couldn't find the NYT article but this will make my point alochol kills

yeast cells. 2nd paragraph 2nd sentence :7

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues04/mar04/phenomena.html


The pair found that the cell wall rises and falls three nanometers (about 15 carbon atoms stacked on top of each other) and vibrates an average of 1,000 times per second. The distance the cell wall moves determines the amplitude, or volume, of the sound wave, and the speed of the up-and-down movement is its frequency, or pitch. Though the volume of the yeast cell sound was far too low to be heard, Gimzewski says its frequency was theoretically within the range of human hearing. "So all we're doing is turning up the volume," he adds.

The frequency of the yeast cells the researchers tested has always been in the same high range, "about a C-sharp to D above middle C in terms of music," says Pelling. Sprinkling alcohol on a yeast cell to kill it raises the pitch, while dead cells give off a low, rumbling sound that Gimzewski says is probably the result of random atomic motions. The pair also found that yeast cells with genetic mutations make a slightly different sound than normal yeast cells; that insight has encouraged the hope that the technique might eventually be applied to diagnosing diseases such as cancer, which is believed to originate with changes in the genetic makeup of cells. The researchers have begun to test different kinds of mammalian cells, including bone cells, which have a lower pitch than yeast cells. The researchers don't know why.


more...

[SOS]

29. Even the dead yeast cells

continue to sing! The result of random atomic motions.
The universe hums at a certain frequency too.
But neither deep space, nor yeast cells, nor cucumbers feel pain.
Without a central nervous system there is no pain.
That's why haircuts don't hurt.

[smbolisnch]

35. Plants, yeast cells.....DO NOT HAVE A CNS.

Therefore, they cannot feel pain or respond to stimuli.

It's a silly analogy.

[LibInternationalist]

15. self-deleted

never mind, already answered

[Stop_the_War]

17. ..

[LibInternationalist]

18. they're not babies

they're unfertilized eggs -- I wouldn't expect you to eat the chicks, obviously

[Stop_the_War]

19. yeah I realized that sorry....

that's why I deleted my message LOL.

[LibInternationalist]

20. we do have a string of replied-to

but deleted messages -- everyone else must be very confused

[TrustingDog]

30. besides thinking of the welfare of cows, for ex...

the fact is milk products are Gross. On tests feces, pus, antibiotics and other grossarama stuff are found in it. Thinking of drinking factory farm milk makes me want to gag.

Good ole soya milk is DELISH!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. shearing sheep for wool does NOT kill the animal!...duh

[NickofTime]

11. Why Single Out the Poor Fish?

Fish are full of mercury pollution. Don't eat them.

[LibInternationalist]

16. the air is full of pollution

as is the water, the ground, and any grain that grows out of it -- I think there are good arguments to be made about not eating fish, but that's not one of them

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. do you eat only fallen fruit?

[smbolisnch]

25. I am vegan.

Just because a product says it is free range does not mean the animals didn't suffer. I believe that companies are allowed to use the term "free range" with minimal changes from regular factory farming. I am not saying that these idealistic farms don't exist. I'm sure they do.

Here is the botom line. As vegans, we don't believe that animlas are ours to use, for any reason.

And by the way, veganism IS NOT the "radical" diet from PETA. Veganism began in the 1920's, PETA was established in 1980.

[smbolisnch]

26. Delete Dupe

[jazzjunkysue]

28. Eat what you want. Order your ethics according to how you treat others.

If being a food elitist of any kind satisfies your need to look down on others, you're using them to repair your damaged self esteem. People who seek to control others, whether it's food or faith, are hypocrites.

[livinginphotographs]

31. Chill, killer.

I don't know why an honest question about veganism would make the OP a "food elitist." Maybe he/she has personal ethical problems with exploiting animals. I'm not really sure why that makes someone an elitist.

[prolesunited]

32. Wow, that's awfully harsh

Not all vegans or vegetarians seek to control others. In fact, I would venture that they are a minority, just as those who seek to use religion to control others.

What I see from the posters here is a simple explanation of why they make the choices they have and what their beliefs are. Condemnation seems to be more readily emanating from your post.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

33. succint!

[livinginphotographs]

34. Or ignorant.

But I guess we'll agree to disagree. :shrug:

[rainbow4321]

36. My daughter will only use "cruelty free" items..

She just started being a vegetarian a few months ago so she is still learning and trying to figure out what stuff she will/won't use.

For example, she won't use regular nail polish remover <they have cruelty free brands- no-lanolin, acetate or other harsh chemicals>, wants to avoid anything that has gelatin (is made from the boiled bones, skins and tendons of animals) which includes certain vitamins, candies, desserts, Jell-o...so she reads all labels to see if it has gelatin in the product. We had no idea how many things had gelatin as an ingredient..YIKES!
Guess it all depends on what level one wants to take the vegan/vegetarian beliefs.

[BikeWriter]

37. I stopped eating animals unless they're dead first. n/t