OKAY here is the perfect NCLB talking point

[proud2BlibKansan]

NCLB mandates that within ten years, 100% of kids in grades 3 through 8 must be proficient in both Reading and Math. 100% means ALL kids. So even kids who don't speak English and kids who are severely retarded must read at a 'proficient level'. That means on grade level. School districts are allowed to exempt only 2% of all kids from the testing. Kids who have been in the US less than a year will not be tested.

I am a special ed teacher and that 2% will NOT cover all severely retarded kids. Not even close. And kids need more than a year to learn to speak English.

I have been having an ongoing NCLB debate with a freeper on another discussion board who just bashes teachers, says we need vouchers, teachers are just making excuses and don't like NCLB, etc, etc. I am sure you all have heard all their talking points.

Finally, yesterday, I shut him up when I asked him if he thought a kid with an IQ of 20 could learn to read as well as his non-disabled peers. Because that is what NCLB says, 100% must be proficient. And he shut right up. BINGO!!

[ulysses]

1. also, we can highlight the cynicism

of Bush calling for unrealizable goals and what that's likely to do to our exceptional needs kids. :thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Hey ulysses,

:hi:

Has your district started to count the kids they want to exempt? Mine has and 2% doesn't even cover the kids who are hospitalized and getting sped services (so technically they are counted as our kids), They told us when they throw in kids in state schools and those on homebound programs, no way can any kid who is actually seated in a classroom be exempt from testing.

My friend who teaches severly impaired kids says she is going to start writing "will drool on test booklet" as a justification for testing modifications. :)

[ulysses]

7. they probably have.

I know my kids aren't exempt so I haven't been involved in that. You can be sure that I'm going to be working on their IEPs to get modifications in place where necessary, though.

"will drool on test booklet" - :D

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. The freeper I am debating

just posted that I should be ashamed of myself for admitting a kid is unteachable. I asked him if he thought it was more important to teach a kid to read or to toilet train him first. And if he can't hold a fork to feed himself, did he have any ideas for how we could get him to hold a pencil and take the test he can't read. :) I love debating these idiots.

Hey my kids are taking an NAEP test in a couple weeks. It looks like they are going to be included in the norm group for a future test. I had to fill out a 10 page booklet for each kid listing accomodations from their IEPs. Then on the last page, it says that all NAEP tests must be completed in ONE session and would that be a problem for this student. Well every one of my kids has extended time and testing over multiple days as accomodations on their IEPs. So I hope that will get them out of having to take this test. I don't care if the test isn't counted and it's just to set norms, my kids are sick to death of being tested this year.

[ulysses]

11. he probably thinks

that profound intellectual disabilities are caused by demon possession. :eyes:

My kids have NAEPs coming up, too, and they're also already sick of tests. We're doing lots of hands-on, kinesthetic stuff to kind of break out of the muck as much as possible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. He claims to not be religious

He spends his time bashing teachers and leftists. He seems to have a need to criticize teachers and public schools. And he despises liberals with a passion.

Our latest debate arose when he posted an article about a school district in Nebraska that is dropping the annual spelling bee. He said that the teachers are just determined to punish the kids because they don't like NCLB. I pointed out it was an administrator who made the decision to drop the spelling bee (it was right there in the article) and that teachers enjoyed having fun with kids and spelling bees are fun. But the testing restraints in NCLB are forcing us to abandon fun stuff and focus on testing.

So he responded that he was sure kids were tested in spelling. I said not exactly, most states were now administering written assessments and spelling is just a small part of being able to write proficiently, if you can spell a word but not use in it in a coherent sentence it did no good to know how to spell it.

That threw him and he came back to his argument that we are just whining because we don't like NCLB. (But he spells it 'whinning') So I threw that 100% proficient fact at him. I think I have won the argument, he is just too stubborn to admit I am right.

I will post that spelling bee article over on the education forum.

[ulysses]

16. ROFLMAO!

(But he spells it 'whinning')

Of course he does! Hypocrisy, thy name is conservatism. :D

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Yes, he is just a shit to me

and if I wanted to I could rip him to shreds on spelling errors alone. But I try to be nice.

I just told him I am walking away from this discussion because he is just criticizing me instead of debating. I tried to educate him but he isn't interested in learning anything. I know that will tick him off - no opponent. hee hee :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Hey ulysses I like you

I wish we worked in the same school. I can tell we'd be having ourselves a good ole time.

:yourock:

[ulysses]

22. we would, wouldn't we?

:D :loveya:

[LWolf]

24. This is the hidden elephant that has allowed

the takeover and destruction of public ed.

States and districts around the nation have all during the last couple of decades, incorporated some version of "every child can learn" into their mission statement. As a public institution, it is our job to serve all. If we publicly acknowledge that some are not going to learn as much as others, then we are somehow failing in our purpose.


"Every child can learn" doesn't mean that every child can learn the same things, the same way, at the same level. But it is a mantra that is used by right-wingers to try to control the conversation, isn't it?

There may very well be kids who are unteachable; if so, it's unlikely that we will see them in a public ed institution. If they are unteachable, they'll be in an institution somewhere in a vegetative state.

It's not whether or not they are teachable; it's whether we are teaching what they are able to learn, and it's a matter of prioritizing what they are able to learn. I'd say it is more important for someone with an IQ of 20 to learn to dress and undress, bathe, eat, and engage in basic conversation, etc. before we worried about academics. When and if academics were ever approached, learning how to write his name and count things would be a good starting point.

[colinmom71]

12. Eh, my kid will have yours beat...

I can now make "will make free form origami with test booklet" part of his IEP... Hey, wouldn't that give him extra credit in art class too?

Actually, my school system has been pretty good at exercizing some common sense here. They don't try to make the SPID participate in stadardized testing. I know that none of Colin's classes have been involved in testing, that is. I'm not sure, but I also think they've exempted the Autism program kids as well...

I personally think an unwritten goal of NCLB is to so severely underfund schools that they are forced to go back to segregated schools for learning disabled and physically/intellectually disabled kids. "The disabled should neither be seen nor heard"/"they're dragging down the *real* kids' ability to be schooled" type mentality at work... Goodness but I've become cynical in my old age.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. They can only exempt 2%

of ALL the kids, not just 2% of special ed kids. So sooner or later, they will all be taking the tests. We are a bit ahead of other states in MO. But trust me, it's coming your way. By (I think 2012, but it might be 2014) ALL kids in grades 3 through 8 must be proficient in Reading and Math. That is what NCLB says.

[ulysses]

18. yes.

I personally think an unwritten goal of NCLB is to so severely underfund schools that they are forced to go back to segregated schools for learning disabled and physically/intellectually disabled kids.

I think that may well be true. There seems to be a real backlash developing (or hell, in full swing for all I know) against special ed and movements toward inclusion. Sped kids interfere with Republican economic theory.

[brainshrub]

2. God-damn facts.

Annoying little things aren't they?

Vouchers are just an excuse to remove funding for education. Uneducated people find it difficult to demand a good wage. Everything Republicans do is designed to make labor cheaper.

Evil wankers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. All the pieces are falling in to place now

Evil isn't a harsh enough word.

[jpgray]

3. NCLB is meant to sabotage and destroy public education

The provisions make sense when it is viewed in that light.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. BINGO

They need to find the funding for their vouchers somewhere. So taking it away from poor kids in 'failing schools' makes perfect sense.

[ulysses]

8. precisely.

It's all of a piece. Anyone who values what scraps we have left of a civil society needs to be hammering ANYONE who stands up for NCLB or vouchers.

[ComerPerro]

9. Exactly right. Only private schools

And this provision is very telling.

100% must conform.

Well, lets see. That would be a really easy goal to meet at a private school. They are exclusive and space is limited, and they don't have to take anyone. They can turn people away.

Public schools, however, do not have this luxury. So they will lose their funding.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. All you non educators listen up

LIFE IS A BELL CURVE. (Man my college professors will jump on me for saying that but I just did.) We are taught to have high expectations and get the best we can from every kid but face it, they are not all future Rhodes Scholars.

Not everyone can be proficient. There are always going to be some at the top, some in the middle and some at the bottom. Too bad, so sad, but that is the reality. 100% will never be proficient.NEVER

[ulysses]

15. there's a sound bite in there

along with all the truth. Education shouldn't be about reaching some arbitrary standard, but about every child achieving the most that he or she possibly can.

Or maybe not a soundbite, since that truism doesn't much lend itself to political solutions. Still, the political solutions are only there because we don't like to acknowledge, in the general culture, the existence of severely or profoundly intellectually disabled kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. My stupid freeper just admitted

he grew up down the street from a retarded kid who couldn't read or write! Then he went on about all the other talents the kid had in spite of the fact that he could not read!!!

So I asked him if he thought the kid should be held to the same standard as the other kids who were not retarded. Because that's what NCLB says - 100% proficient .

I think I nailed him on this argument. Whoopee!! :)

[ulysses]

23. a kick for ALL children

:kick: