DUers rooting AGAINST the elections??

[phrenzy]

WTF? Look, can't we oppose the war, the premise and Shrub but still hope for the best and think good thoughts for the BRAVE people in Iraq that are actually getting their asses to the polls?!?

This is about the Iraqis at this point - NOT shrub. Yes Shrub will declare 'victory' because of it - but my priority has to be w/ the Iraqi people right now. The sooner they feel they have valid self determination, the harder it will be for shrub to just sit there and occupy them.


I *am* conflicted about this - but, the bottom line, for me - This is GOOD for the Iraqis. Is it good for Shrub? I don't give a shit. I will fight shrubs agenda just as hard. But I am glad for the Iraqis today.

[DrWeird]

1. You can't support democracy and support this sham.

It's the obligation of every decent free thinking human being to call this what it is.

[purduejake]

25. MSM says 72% turnout...

and most Iraqis can't believe it! Sounds like we DID export our elections and democracy.

[theresistance]

31. Was revised down to 60% but even this must be inflated

[bryant69]

53. Why?

Do you have other evidence?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ProfessorGAC]

55. It Says 50% Today In The NY Times And WaPost

Paul read both front page stories on Washington Journal this morning.
The Professor

[JHB]

68. Rumors of loss of food rations can do wonders for turnout

There is a sense among some in Baghdad that the United States wants the new parliament to choose Allawi, the incumbent, as prime minister. If the Americans want it, the conversation goes, so it will be. This reflects the deep vein of conspiracy theories that runs through Baghdad life these days -- from a rumor that the Jordanian militant Abu Musab Zarqawi, blamed for some of Iraq's most spectacular carnage, is an American fabrication, to a rumor voiced by Abed that Iraqis who don't vote will have their monthly food rations taken away.

"Maybe it's not correct," he said, "but it's what people are saying."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19160-2005Jan18_3.html

[Jackie97]

87. But you see, this rumor makes no sense.

"There is a sense among some in Baghdad that the United States wants the new parliament to choose Allawi, the incumbent, as prime minister. If the Americans want it, the conversation goes, so it will be. This reflects the deep vein of conspiracy theories that runs through Baghdad life these days -- from a rumor that the Jordanian militant Abu Musab Zarqawi, blamed for some of Iraq's most spectacular carnage, is an American fabrication, to a rumor voiced by Abed that Iraqis who don't vote will have their monthly food rations taken away."

The Americans know damn well that the Iraqis don't want Allawi and that most Iraqis would vote against him. Why on earth would they threaten Iraqis to make them vote?

[RUDUing2]

77. Katie slipped up this morning...she didn't say

*higher then expected turnout*...she added three little words..*in some locations*..

I don't think this election is anymore legit then those under SH...there may be more then one candidate listed, but we all know which ones will win...or at least be announced as the winner...the ones who agree w/the US and that are backed by the US...

But as to who actually has the most votes? highly doubt they will be announced as the winner.

[anarchy1999]

103. Does anyone here ever read Riverbend?

Riverbend is a young woman in Iraq with a blog,

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

Just her most recent:

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...

Thursday, January 27, 2005

Water Anxiety...
I have to make this fast. We have about two hours of electricity- hopefully. The water came back yesterday evening. It's just a little drizzle but it's certainly better than nothing.

E. was the first to hear it. We were sitting in the living room and he suddenly jumped up, alert, "Do you hear that?" He asked. I strained my ears for either the sound of a plane or helicopter or gun shots. Nothing... except, wait... something... like a small stream of... water? Could it be? Was it back? We both ran into the bathroom where we had the faucets turned on for the last eight days in anticipation of water. Sure enough, there it was- a little stream of water that kept coming and going as if undecided. E. and I did a little victory dance in front of the sink with some celebratory hoots and clapping.

This was followed by a lot of work. We spent the rest of the evening filling anything that was fillable- pots, pans, cups, bottles and buckets. The formerly empty area under the staircase is now filled with big pots of water covered with trays and mismatching pot covers to keep out stray bugs and dust.

I almost didn't sleep last night. I kept worrying the water would be cut off again. I actually crept downstairs at 4 a.m. to see if it was still there and found E. standing in the bathroom doorway doing the same. My mother is calling the syndrome "water anxiety". We were hoping the flow would grow stronger at night but apparently the water pressure is really low. E. and I rose early this morning because we decided last night that should the water continue to flow, we'd attempt to fill up the big water tank on the roof. The water from this tank goes directly to the electric water heater but since we haven't been using that for a while now, we decided to close up the tank and use it as a sort of secondary storage. We cannot get caught off-guard again. Drinking water rose to almost 1,000 Dinars a liter this last week.

Please go back to when she started and see the change, and then she has a friend, Raed, go back and read the same changes.

http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/

and then there is Raed's mom, her posts will break your heart.

http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/

most recent:

Friday, January 28, 2005

Good morning

The world is more concerned of the Iraqi elections than the poor Iraqis themselves.
People in Iraq are busy with their lives details and in solving the problems of water and electricity, and dealing with the lack of gas for cars and cooking, in addition to the daily horror of the bombed cars, explosions, death and destruction… and the gangs of thieves and kidnappers.
All of this in Iraq, while the international media stations are trying to find answers to questions like: What’s the ration of voters? Are the elections going to be held or not? Who is for the elections and who is against it? Who are the names in the winning elections lists? How many people are on each list?

Hmmmmmmm….

The world is living other priorities that are totally different from the regular Iraqi’s main concerns.
I know and feel the size of the struggle and sacrifices of Iraqis, and I wish that Iraq and Iraqis will achieve a stabile life as soon as possible because they witnessed a long history full of suffering.
We always laugh and say that God will put Iraqis in heaven and tell them: you saw enough of misery in your life.
My heart laughs and cries at once.


On another note, please always look for anything from

www.dahrjamailiraq.com

and never, never ever forget to keep an eye open for anything from Robert Fisk!

[billbuckhead]

2. We're jealous we can't have free elections with auditable paper ballots

Democracy is joke at this point in America, why would we expect the Iraqi elections not to be a hoax.

[Mika]

29. They will be using tabulation computers. Completely hackable. n/t

[mithnanthy]

78. billbuckhead...

I was thinking the same exact thing. I was "jealous" to see they had paper ballots and boxes to check with an X..and they were to be hand counted....I wish WE had such an efficient system.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Because the elections are a sham...

...and more likely will cause a civil war than heal divisions.

[Jackie97]

88. What would have been your suggestion?

[Cooley Hurd]

91. Simple, pull US troops, send in a multinational peacekeeping force...

...made up predominantly from middle eastern nations, and let the place calm down before attempting something as important as an election.

The Iraqis don't want or need our help - the growing insurgency shows us that.

[Jackie97]

98. I would have liked that idea....

We should have had the UN come in, some Arab countries, or whatever. However, Bush unfortunately did it his dumbass way. I don't think this was any less of an election. The Iraqis came out in large numbers and risked their lives. They did that on their own.

As for the insurgents, those people killed Iraqi citizens yesterday for voting. They are no friend of the Iraqi people.

[Walt Starr]

4. What fucking elections?

There were NO FUCKING NAMES ON THE BALLOTS!

There was no election, just a bullshit scam.

[MissB]

75. I assume you're serious, Walt

I haven't read that there were not any names on the ballots. Where did you read this?

Thanks :hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

76. It is true--they only voted for the political party, not the candidates

The parties will then select the members of parliament in proportion to the percentage of votes they recieved.

[charlie]

80. That's true. But

ballot-wise, they had to choose a number. The number/party key had only been distributed a couple of days before...

The lists, which only bear numbers and not candidate names for the most part, were published only two days before.

At a polling station in the New Mosul neighbourhood, Mahasin Ahmed, 37, a school teacher, wanted to vote for Yawar, a tribal leader, but did not know that his list number was 255 and neither did the election worker helping her.

He suggested she vote for list 188 because it had "tribes" in the title.

...

An election worker suggested she vote for list 285 headed by interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and a local list headed by governor Duraid Kashmula.

She ticked the boxes obligingly and walked out - just as Zahra Ibrahim, 60, did before her.

"I really just did what they asked me to do," she said as the Iraqi national anthem crackled on a loudspeaker in the background.

Similar scenes unfolded at the Al-Fadhila school on the west side as men and women, perplexed over what the list numbers stood for, were offered suggestions and a helping hand by election workers.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1292228.htm

[The Sheik]

5. Nobody (or I at least dont think so) is agaisnt the elections in Iraq.

This is probably one of the only good things that have happened so far. However, there are its flaws, and from what is being shone so far the percentage of Iraqis who were able to vote isnt as large as the Cabinent has made it out to be.

[Stirk]

6. Yeah, you're right. We hate them for their freedoms.

:eyes:

[PROGRESSIVE1]

7. I agree. I want these elections to go well. Most of all,

I want us to pull out of Iraq ASAP! The problem I have is that the U.S Media is shilling the line that everything is going well. There has been violence at polling stations and the REAL turnout is VERY LOW!

60% turnout?!? Yes, it is 60% turnout....60% of those who registered which is about 1/3 of the population who registered.

The violence will continue after today, remember that! We still have problems that have to be dealt with.

About 6.5 million of 16 million voters voted! This is sad day.

:eyes:

[LisaL]

8. We got our asses to the polls too. And that sure did us a world of

good.
:eyes:

[Algorem]

9. only real vote over there would be vote on whether or not to kick US out.

Let's see them let them vote on that.

[Mz Pip]

10. I hope this works out for Iraq

These people have suffered enough - under Saddam, under Bush. But it is way to soon to tell. This is the beginning of a long process and I doubt it will be easy. Time will tell. There's no turning back now.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[phrenzy]

11. Ok , I didn't know the details.

I didn't know the details about there being no 'names on the ballots' - That's pretty lame. But at the same time, they have to start somewhere.

I'm not saying we 'hate them for their freedoms' - I'm saying, sometimes hatred of Shrub tends to cloud peoples view of things. I have to separate this event from my feelings from him.

[tuvor]

15. The only trouble with that is that the election was bush's idea.

And he has never been demonstrably successful at anything important in his life.

[Bouncy Ball]

28. Actually it wasn't.

It was only because of some serious screaming from Iraqi groups that the US govt even AGREED to do this. It's just to APPEASE the Iraqis.

Most of them, though, know this is a sham, so there has been very little appeasement going on.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

95. LOL, "Bush's idea"?

I don't think Bush even makes his own presidential decisions, let alone come up with policy ideas.

[underpants]

12. No-at least I'm not

my objection is about the fact that these people don't really know who they are voting for (perfect chance to make the results anything you want them to be), the media literally reading from script, and the fact that as great as it is:
-It wasn't worth the cost
-This was NOT the primary "selling point" for this "product" (not really in the top 5)
-They lied and continue to and are now taking credit for it.

[ultraist]

13. "This is good for the Iraqis" WTF?

WHAT is good for the Iraqis? A bogus stagecrafted *election* that was done only to support Bush's propaganda campaign?

BUSH USED THOSE PEOPLE and LIED TO THEM to PROMOTE HIS AGENDA. Encouraging people to risk their lives for a bogus election is not doing anything GOOD.

WHAT GOOD have we done for the Iraqis? ANSWER THAT QUESTION, PLEASE, I'd really like to know.

[mopaul]

14. I PISS on bush's big parade

election schmection.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. great! job done! lets go home! (nt)

[zmdem]

17. Of course, anything to hurt Bush

even at the expense of the Iraqis.

Let them die, as long as Bush is discredited, it's worth it. Republicans vs. Democrats in DC is much important than the fate of Iraq.

/sarcasm OFF

[atreides1]

18. You're Dreaming My Friend

Do you really believe that Bush will pull US troops out of Iraq?

You say that the sooner the Iraqi people feel they have self determination, the harder it will be for Shrub to just sit there and occupy them.

Let's see he lied about the reasons for the war, US troops were sent in ill equipped and trained, US military personnel tortured, abused, and very likely murdered Iraqi detainess, the US has violated the Geneva Conventions, and bombed and shelled women and children.

Yet through all of this the great American public has stood by and either applauded the atrocities, or looked the other way and said nothing.

Do you truly believe that Bush is going to let this election be the reason for a US withdrawal?

This will only be GOOD for the Iraqi people as long as some US puppet, like Allawi is not returned to power, or any of the current
interim leaders of the Iraqi government. And if they are placed back in charge, US troops will not be leaving Iraq, for years.

Also, why is the US building permanent bases in the country if there was any reality of pulling out?

[nostamj]

19. Iraqi "voters" are like the first weekend crowds for GIGLI

about to be VERY disappointed.

nothing but props for propaganda. the only 'winner' is bushco because it happened at all.

the very thought that bushco would allow an honest election in Iraq (see, afghanistan and their US-installed oil puppet) is too silly to consider...

i'm sure most DUers support DEMOCRATIC elections... and would prefer starting that process here at home BEFORE we PRETEND to export it.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

20. With life at stake it takes less than 12 hours to vote?

Maybe we should send Katherine Blackwell to Iraq so he can see how it is done. I guess due to the threat of terrorism they'll have to lock up and secure the buildings where the counting is done. Or they'll just send them to Warren County, Ohio to count them.

[Canuckistanian]

21. Which scenario is better?

Having an election in which 1/3 of the population (an entire sub-cultural group) isn't represented OR waiting until the situation stabilizes (not likely anyways).
It's a lose-lose proposition.

[Bouncy Ball]

22. Try reading this.

Seriously. Open your eyes before you go around making half-assed accusations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3030278

And I know from whence you come, you aren't fooling anyone.

[anarchy1999]

101. One hell of a post, Bouncy! It is a must read for all. Thank you.

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

You know I get fucking sick and tired of people saying some generic

DU'ers are doing anything then the next thing you know some conservative site has a thread saying "THE LOONY LEFT IS AGAINST DEMOCRACY FOR IRAQI's"

The election was a fucking sham...a very small percentage of Iraqi's voted just like here...if you have something to celebrate...go celebrate it but don't post some righteous shit here as though your impression of a few posters represents all of DU.

[K-W]

23. This is not good for the Iraqi's, thats where you are dead wrong.

Fake elections are not democratic.

Sheesh.

[peacetalksforall]

24. It doesn't make any difference what we think - it it did, we could have

won when we said - don't invade Iraq - Saddam IS NOT bin Laden. This vote is a PNAC, neo-con, cabal, white house-media, corporate SHAM. If they gave one sxxt about Iraq, they wouldn't have killed 100,000 Iraqis and a smaller per cent of ours and the coalitions and made a mess of the rest of the lives of thousands more.

This election is a fraud. There are no good intentions on the part of the white house media and Halliburton - it is a sham of public relations that is as empty of heart as the proverbial devil him or herself.

I feel nothing but sorrow for the people of Iraq because of the dubious reason for their voting at this time.

Today - we had 30+ deaths - now we have 30 days more of curfew - then we'll see how the next 30 number be represented.

Sham. Sham. Sham. Because the U.S. arranged it. I still want to know if the American Iraqis who voted were naturalized citizens of the U.S.? I want to know if any of the Iraqis voting outside of their country were paid or had their expense paid. That is how doubtful I am of the control of the White House and PNAC in this.

Where were the ballots printed - in Iraq - giving someone some business, or in the U.S., or on the copying machine at Halliburton.

My apologies to all iraqis who believed in what they were doing. And I hope I'm wrong about the U.S. and media sham of it all. This has got to be the worst day of propaganda that we have ever experienced.

[HEyHEY]

26. I wish the people of Iraq the best in these elections

But wish in one hand...etc

[Bouncy Ball]

27. Shit in the other, see which one fills up the fastest.

Used to be one of my husband's favorite sayings when he was in the Army.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theresistance]

32. An election created by an invasion and occupation cannot be

legitimate. Remember that the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980's set up elections as well, but noone in the West celebrated them.

[Bouncy Ball]

33. Do yourself a favor and turn off the TV news.

Start looking at things more objectively. Look at ALL angles, all facts. Not just what the media is force feeding you.

[deadparrot]

34. I'm for free and fair elections.

Safe elections. I'm for a decent standard of living for all human beings, and the right to live without a military presence, foreign or domestic, breathing down their necks. Nothing of the sort is involved in these "elections." They're a sham, and the quagmire will continue; today's events don't change anything.

[hector459]

35. I woke up to 95% turnout, by mid-morning it was 72%, latest from Iraq 60%

I don't care if it gets down to 10%, I am happy for the brave people of Iraq who faced off the insurgents and who had enough nerve to trust the security of their lives in the hands of an occupying force. For sure this was a victory AGAINST the insugents, if not a total victory for the Iraqi people. And that's GOOD thing. Yes, I hate this administration for its invasion of Iraq. But this election might even be the beginning of the Iraqi people not only shaking loose from the shackles of Saddam but it may also be the beginning of shaking loose from the US who for decades propped up Saddam and his treatment of the Iraqi people. Let's not fool ourselves--our government has been no less hurtful to the Iraqi people than Saddam and much of what Saddam did to the people of Iraq he did with our knowledge and help.

America is great at causing a problem behind the scenes just to run in correct the problem and take the credit in full view. We make countries poor and then rush in to give aid so as to be seen as the great savior of the world's poor. Never mind that our polices are in place to make sure they stay poor and beholden to us forever.

We know the real deal here at the DU but let's give the some credit where credit is due today. Even if you may be wondering why these people didn't rise up against Saddam themselves and save their beautiful country and the lives of their innocents before we invaded.
That reality makes me wonder if the Iraqi people will ever be able to be anything but a martial law puppet of the US but right now, I have a bit of high regard for those brave people who came out to vote!

[The Minus World]

36. Reason, not Politics

Politically, the Republicans will use the mere occurence of an election as fodder for their argument that this war was justified - regardless of outcome, or danger to the participants involved. Nobody here is opposed to Iraqi freedom; we're just opposed to the idea that it can be brought to them in a violent, oppressive manner.

Were this election to be unsuccessful, it may serve to broaden the mainstream U.S. media's debate about "miscalculations" (or deliberate errors, if you prefer) in Bush's overarching strategy - possibly leading to an awakening about the unfeasability of a perpetual "war on terror," which, in the advent of said awakening, might be much more beneficial to Iraqis than this showcase election would ever be.

[SoCalDem]

37. It's the FORCED atmosphere that I object to.

People are NOT "free to vote"...they are coerced into voting.

Look at our own history for a moment.

The British, prior to the revolutionary war could have just said.. "Hey, we'll just give you all an election.... Here are some ballots, pay no attention to the redcoats with guns and bayonets...just stick your finger into this inkwell, and make your mark on the ballot, which WE have happily provided for you"

Then their press could have announced that the colonists were dancing in the streets because they were happy to be voting.

Never mind the fact that most of the colonists would NOT have voted, and perhaps the ones who DID could not even read...but HEY..they voted anyway.

Does anyone think that our "issues" with the occupiers (the British) would just go away, and we would all have been pleased with the "winners" of that bogus election?

[clovis29]

40. Great Graphic!!!! n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Senator Lamb]

39. look

Im against Bush's policies but its really ridiculous that many here are mocking the elections and discouragint them. like it or not, many Iraqis wanted to vote and we should encourage it. yet some here rather support the insurgents who are the Muslim versions of the Christian Right, but much worse.

[seabeyond]

41. when something is riddled in lies, it is hard to embrace

as a good thing. can we not have one thing, just one thing from this administrations that is in truth, that simply happens that lies arent hidden thru out. i would love to embrace iraq being able to vote. i cant embrace a vote where they threaten people if they dont go out and vote, for something they dont know what they are voting for or they dont get their monthly food supply they count on. i cant embrace the creating this what it is not. again i say, why does du get the blame for bush's inability to have an ounce of integrity in any step of the way. just once, is it asking so much that republicans are straight about something they do. just once, couldnt they do something for the people (in this case iraqi people) that isnt all about their self interest but about the people. just once

i dont take the blame i cant honor this. i surely put it on the shoulders of the corrupt, that i see this in corrupt

[Liberal Classic]

42. Thank you. It's despicable

Whatever your opinion on the war, I can't believe there are people in here wailing and gnashing their teeth about Iraqis exercising their franchise for the first time in nearly fifty years. I don't want to make an ends justifies the means arguement. Surely, simply voting does not solve a nation's problems, and Iraq clearly has a long road ahead. All that being said, I am ashamed to see so-called "liberals" rooting against elections. I'm galled by some people on this forum calling suicide terrorists 'freedom fighters' and I am amazed that people will believe al-Jazeera (who has reported among other wild fantasy that we were using nerve gas and napalm in Falluja) over credible reports from both the American and European press. It's not a victory for Bush, it's not a victory for the U.S. It's a victory for the Iraqi people.

In the words of Jimmy from South Park: "I mean, come on!"

[Bonobo]

43. In the words of Mahatma Gandhi:

Fuck you. (meant to be humorous)

[Liberal Classic]

83. I don't know how to take this

Sorry.

[seabeyond]

44. would you be less disgusted if it were proven to you

that there was nerve gas or something used agaisnt those people. would you be outraged if it was our news that was feeding you lies and non truth and not al jazeera feeding the lies. what if you find you have this twisted backwards

that would be interesting dont you think, to find out that it is true. that we did do that. i find it laughable that you see our news as credible.

[Liberal Classic]

81. I don't buy the "Everything you know is wrong" argument

How does one go about proving a negative?

i find it laughable that you see our news as credible.

It's not like I've claimed the western press is infallible, but to suggest al-Jazeera is *more* credible than various European and American news agencies is what I find laughable.

[K-W]

46. You have been fooled, this isnt a real election.

I really hope there arent actually this many people who cant piece together enough thoughts to get past "election good"

[Liberal Classic]

82. Again with "everything you know is wrong"

This election is the precursor to foreign troop withdrawal from the country, which is something that I want, something the Iraqis want, and pretty much what everybody on DU wants.

[K-W]

94. Precursor to leaving? Where did you get that from?

Find me the pentagon plans for significant withdrawl before 2006 please.

The election is an attempt to legitimize a permanant Iraqi government that will allow the US to retain control. It has nothing to do with us leaving.

And why do you insist on spinning my comments to mean that everything you believe is wrong? I certainly havent said that, its just that you are wrong about the election.

This election is no different than the turnover to the interim government, it is a superficial step in the creation of a psuedo independent, psuedo democratic Iraq whose trade laws we write and who allow our military to stay.

[DemonFighterLives]

45. It is great for the Iraqis to feel happy

It just takes a while to learn about W. 40% of the people in America still see him as good after 4 years of tyranny. After the US bases are all in place and the oil profits in dubby's hands, the Iraqi's will see more clearly.

[flobee1kenobi]

47. like it or not, many Iraqis wanted to vote

I think the whole issue is who delivers that message. Are they being paid to say that, or is it someone who actually talked to the people to find out how they feel-We don't know anymore. When FOX says it-I automatically believe the opposite. There are very few reporters out there that can actually be taken on their word anymore. I want nothing but peace for the Iraqi people, but I also want to hear the truth-good or bad-about whats going on over there.

What is wrong with America when we find more truth on the Daily Show than we do on CNN?

[K-W]

50. No, Iraqi's want peace and security.

They live in an occupied country riddled with violence and instability. This election is offered them a chance to do something. They are being told that this is the first step to them having a government.

Im getting tired of this US middle school social studies class BS. People dont yearn to vote. Voting isnt some magical human activity. It is a means to an end. I love how we act like we have seen the magical force of democracy on primitive people.

This is a people under tremendous duress exercising a rare opportunity to at least attempt to determine thier own faith.

Unless someone has exit polls to show me, arguing that they voted for love of democracy is silly. This isnt a triumph of democracy, this isnt approval of the US prescence.

This is an Iraqi people with very little say in thier own future being given at least the illusion of say. Of course alot of them are voting.

[seabeyond]

57. yea happy, of course vote (i want mine too), peace security

yup to all those things. but lets at least get the story straight. they didnt have a valid vote, it was intimidation vote, of course many want to and probably in a way felt good but so tainted too. that is the story. bush lies. i wont honor bush lies or stories. someone has got to stop

listen to those living in iraq, the educated the youth. this is not about mad bad people fighting against the u.s., this is about hell in that country. and the ones living it, raising family and children in it trying to feed theirs in it,..............it is hell. cannot find happiness in such hell.

[jayfish]

48. Ohhh We Evil DUer's.

Would you care to give some examples to backup your claim. Make sure you include thread links so context can be taken into account.

Jay

[robbedvoter]

49. Ever since emperor W. "elections" is becoming a dirty word

So far only Ukraine& Romania managed to keep the meaning of the word - by having a new election rather than accept fraud. Any "election" staged by the Reich, be it in US or in one of our colonies is an insult to democracy.

[NoPasaran]

51. If we can use this as an excuse to get the hell out of there

I'm all for it.

[K-W]

54. Have you not been paying attention to the pentagon.

There was never any thought that we would be leaving after this election.

This election is to legitimize the puppet/client government that the US is going to be increasingly shoving in front of the camera.

They are doing this along with attempting Iraqization of the war. Their goal is to be able to pull the US troops into bases, remaining a deterrent to any major warfare, but let the army purchased by the new Iraqi government fight the battles against the resistance.

Then they will turn our focus on somewhere else in the world.

[htuttle]

52. We are quite clearly the stupidest country in the world, if not in history

Just an observation after reading the 'news' this morning.

I could kick myself for not going into direct mail sales. I could have made a billion dollars selling penis enlargement pills to Americans.

[seabeyond]

59. hey dude/dudette i AM RIGHT THERE with you

lordy retarded we are, wink

:toast:

[Q]

56. I hope the Iraqis aren't as gullible as Americans...

...but what choice do they have? Bush bombed the shit out of their country and then set up a system where they voted in the hope that it would mean an independent government and the end of the occupation.

But can any semblance of 'democracy' prevail in a country occupied by a force that has killed more civilians than 'terrorists'? The Iraqis may believe that they're voting for democracy...but in the end they will have helped Bush establish a 'legitimate' puppet government that does his bidding.

[seabeyond]

60. these people were forced to vote

or lose food to feed their family. how foolish do you think they are

[Liberal Classic]

84. Would it be bad form on my part

To ask for some sort of evidence to support this claim?

[MadHound]

58. I think you are right, to a certain extent, at least for the short term

Short term it gives the Iraqi people hope, and a sense of control of their own destiny. However long term I think that this is going to backfire in our faces. First off, we're not leaving Iraq, at least not for the next couple of decades. We're building fourteen permanent bases, thus it seems unlikely that we're going to be leaving soon. Secondly, the Iraqi army is weak and cannot control matters, therefore that will be another excuse to stay. Third, by hook or by crook, we're going to install a puppet government that will be compliant with US wishes.

When the Iraqi people figure this out, there is going to be hell to pay. Again, we're following the Vietnam blueprint, and we all know how that turned out. If we truly wish to do the Iraqi people some good, we should leave that country, and let the people of Iraq figure it out. I think that we should pay for every single thing we destroyed, along with compensation for civilian deaths, but we all know that that is a joke of a notion to this administration.

So while I think that this election probably boosted the morale of Iraqi people in the short term, I think that we're going to see a relatively quick sense of disillusionment set in amongst the native Iraqis, as they see that this election doesn't change things, doesn't ease the violence, doesn't get rid of the Americans, and doesn't put more power in the hands of the public.

[K-W]

61. The Iraqi people didnt vote for a sense of hope.

THESE PEOPLE ARENT CHILDREN

They voted to get rid of the US and get thier religious/ethnic leaders who they trust in charge PERIOD

They arent basking in hope right now, they are waiting for the results they were promised, a government that gives them power and the US gone.

When that does not happen the same thing that motivated them to risk thier lives at the polls is going to motivate them to risk thier lives protesting or risk thier lives fighting and democracy will seem just another western trick meant to oppress them.

There is nothing good about illigitamate elections under an illegal occupation.

[seabeyond]

62. yes to all you say. this is NOT a hard one

yes

[seabeyond]

63. and once again, as an opposer of our government

dissident unamerican elitist...............i am not going to once again take the blame for bush lying, stealing and corrupt and say i am the bad person because i call bush on it, and i dont play his story

do i want the best for all these souls in iraq and the families in america that have loved ones in iraq

anyone challenge me on my motive. dont tell me,..........that i am the bad one

the bad one is who plays the games. lies cheats and steals.

so screw anyone that says i want chaos over there and in the election yesterday. i say to you, because i am clever enough to follow what is happening, not buying into media, not buying into bush story, but listen to all,........because i recognize the inevitable in bad decision making and policy implementation, and the effect on people being suppressed and intimidated by big bad u.s.

i am not the sucker. the bad guy. i am not the fool

[MadHound]

66. I think that if you would re-read my post,

You would find that we are essentially saying the same thing friend. And there is no need to shout at me like I'm some child, OK.

And no, the Iraqi people aren't voting for a sense of hope. However the act of voting, even in the face of irrefutable evidence of an illegit election, can and often does impart a sense of hope, at least in the short term.

[seabeyond]

67. i read your post madhound, and i heard you

i saw that you were talking just short term. i agree with what kx? is saying though. not to you, but to what we are being fed in this moment

[K-W]

73. I didnt misread anything in your post.

And yes, we do largely agree.

I just think its important not to underestimate the intelligence of Iraqi's. I dont think they are wondering around satisfied at voting. I think they are sitting, watching, and waiting for the results they were promised. I dont think its a matter of realization at all.

[Mandate My Ass]

64. Their resources have been seized via executive order

and U.S. interests have been granted blanket protection from legal action of any sort. The only thing they're "voting" for is who will dispense of their oil for them and how they will "pay" those corporations for damages to profits resulting from our invasion.

You call it an election, I call it rape.

[leesa]

65. Because it's a heartless scam to make it look as though Bush's illegal

invasion was justified. All just more smoke and mirrors. I feel so sorry for the Iraqis...we treat them like shit. Do you actually think Bush...who HATES democracy with a passion would allow real democracy to exist?? Real democracy is his biggest threat.

Their election was as much a crock as ours was.

[OnionPatch]

69. My feelings are mixed

After watching our sham of an election here at home it almost feels as if elections are just something the ones in charge do to make us merely feel like we have some sort of control. Call me bitter.

My first feelings are that I would love to see the Iraqi people get through this and be the better for it. BUT......the thing that bothers me and makes me almost fear a successful Iraqi election is that if they are successful in Iraq and everything goes well, the Bush gang may decide to go "free" some other countries!! Success will only ecourage the Bush gang and the MSM to push for more "liberation." So it's a mixed bag.

[K-W]

74. It wasnt a real election

Elections arent ends, they are means. An election can produce a populist democratic government or an election can produce a propaganda show for a dictator.

There is nothing inherently good or positive about having an election. They are only good and positive when they represent true popular control over government, which this election clearly does not.

Your feelings shouldnt be mixed, this is an illigitimate election giving the Iraqi people nothing but false hope. The US could have delayed this election if it had a chance of hurting thier position, obviously it didnt.

[tom_paine]

70. False dichotomy: DUers against the SHAM

as we are against the SHAM of the "elections" at home in the Empire.

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. No...I just want the truth. I want it to be front and center that 40

people have been killed in suicide bombings...that takes precedence over Michael Jackson's molestation trial in my opinion. I want to know why there are not hundreds of international observers in Iraq as there are in other countries at election time. I want to know who the candidates were, just like we know in all other world elections. In other words, I'd like the crap to be cut. But that isn't going to happen. Success? Call me highly doubtful. Propaganda? I'm pretty sure I could bet the farm on that...and win.

[rman]

72. Where the heck did you get THAT idea?

Many DU-ers are asserting the Iraq election is a sham, which is not the same as being opposed to elections per se.

[Cocoa]

79. no, we're just resisting the hype

which is necessary.

[Individualist]

85. We always oppose fixed elections

Are you saying we shouldn't support democracy? How is a fixed election good for anyone?

[Jackie97]

86. I have to admit something.

I've been disappointed at how a few people on the left have handled this (even though I'm more leftist than most the Democratic Party put together). What is wrong with the Iraqis having their own voice heard?

One reason why I've often been against US wars is because I've thought of it as a new colonialism, where they would even put in the people they wanted and force them on the people. We did do that during the cold war after all. However, both the Afghan people and the Iraqi people got to vote for who they wanted. In the case of the Iraqis, I'm sure they just voted for somebody that conflicts with our interests.

I personally do not like the idea of having a civil war and the winner taking all. That's not democracy. That's not freedom. That's not even necessarily self-determination.

[rman]

90. You think the Iraqis have a say in this?

You say you're opposed to US colonialist wars, yet when that same US organizes elections in a nation *while* the US is waging a colonialist war on that nation, you do actually believe these elections will be fair?

Would it not be more plausible that the US has an interest in keeping up appearances of it being a just war, of covering up the fact that it is yet another colonialist war?
This election comes from the same place where Bush's rationale for this war is coming from, same place where the "for freedom and democracy" rhetoric is coming from.

[Jackie97]

100. Yes, I believe the Iraqis had a say in this.

So do they. If they didn't think that they had a say in this, then they wouldn't have risked their lives to participate in elections. Ten suicide bombers could not have stopped me from voting on November 2nd because I felt strongly about the election. These people wouldn't be speaking metaphorically if they said that. They risked their lives because they believed that what they were voting for mattered. We're not the ones actually over there. They are. I think the Iraqi people knew what they were doing when they went out to vote yesterday.

As for US imperialism, it's always been this way. Even after WWII, we economically took advantage of other countries when we loaned money to them because we insisted on some things that were to our economical advantage. That deal comes as benevolent today, but it wasn't completely benevolent. It was imperialistic. Should the Europeans had all told America to shove it or do you think they knew what they were doing when they went on ahead with the loans?

In any case, I think the new leader is going to tell us to get the heck out of his country.

[K-W]

102. They risk thier lives no matter what they do in Iraq. Thats the point.

The Iraqi's risked thier lives because they are in the middle of a horrible crisis and they were told that if they voted, they would get thier own government and the US would leave. When your city is on lockdown and your country is occupied and at war with itself, you tend to take whatever little opportunity you are given to do something to extricate yourself from the tragedy.

They believed thier leaders who told them that if they voted, they would get power and they would get the US out. Unfortunately the US not thier leaders have the army in Iraq, so it isnt up to them.

It will be up to the Bush administration to either deviate from all of thier past actions and actually leave, or to, as these people have done in country after country, including ours, show that thier words were propaganda and thier true objective is economic control.

[K-W]

96. This is colonialism, you are being fooled.

This is the exact same thing we have done in dozens of countries, stop falling for the lies.

This is a farce, just like mission accompished and the interim government.

We give the Iraqi's no voice, then we give them one election where they get to choose between preapproved groups to decide who will get to help the US craft the permanant Iraqi government. The US will then use these elected people to legitimize an Iraqi government that is friendly to the US, lets the US design its economy, and relies on US military support.

Then we will announce to the world that we have won the war and given Iraq democracy when our goal is to create a state modeled after Saudi Arabia where we can feast off thier petro dollars and oil and a US power base to attack and intimidate other middle eastern countries.

This is the ONLY reason we attacked Iraq. We gave Saddam the chance to let us in, he refused, so we are replacing him with a government of our choosing.

[springhill]

89. You actually think we're leaving?

Hmmm.........you need to get a clue!

[UdoKier]

92. A 'successful' sham election...

... is still a sham election.

And the sooner we are the hell out of there - I mean EVERY SINGLE US SOLDIER, will be the sooner they have self-determination.

And I don't see how this election is good for the Iraqis. Like our own last few elections, it's merely a farce designed to validate and continue the status quo.

[Swamp Rat]

93. There was NO election in Iraq.

I am sad for the Iraqis today. They were just promised democracy but instead were unwilling actors in a crappy PR campaign designed primarily for a pococurante and unthinking American audience.

[dutchdoctor]

97. The only good thing about this election..

Is that MAYBE there will be an Iraqi government that has some legitimacy and it may be possible that this government will ask the American troops to leave somewhere this year.
Most here on DU seem to think that this will never happen, I really don't know but I don't think it's impossible..
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.. anything that makes the U.S. troops leave earlier is a great thing, anyhow!

[Blue_In_AK]

99. The Iraqis may THINK they voted...

...but then so did we. There's no reason to think that their election was any less flawed than ours was.