the Iraqi elections were TOTAL BULLSHIT

[welshTerrier2]

here's why ...

so many have stated how good it was to see a large turnout, at least in some areas of Iraq ... this information, which may or may not be at all accurate by the way, is cited as an indication that there is hope for the Iraqi people to be free and to have a real voice in their government ...

but take a deeper look and you'll see why some of us see little or no value to yesterday's vote ...

i think most of us would agree that we support the idea of democracy for all people all over the world ... the fact that there may have been a large turnout in Iraq only confirms what we already knew: people want, and should have, power over their own destinies ... it's no surprise that people would express this by voting ...

HOWEVER, the REAL PROBLEM has nothing to do with whether Iraqis want to be free and want the right to vote ... of course they do ... that's never been an issue and yesterday didn't reveal any new information whatsoever ... the real problem in Iraq is finding a solution to regional conflict ...

the Sunnis did not participate in yesterday's vote ... for example, Robert Fisk, chief Middle East correspondent for the London Independent, speaking today on Democracy Now said: "In Samarra for example, streets were reportedly deserted and fewer than 1,400 ballots were cast by a population of 200,000" ... showing long lines of pro-democracy Shia does not change that reality ... the solution to peace and democracy in Iraq is regional negotiations in an internationally supported framework ...

think about it this way ... before the elections, candidates were invisible ... there were no public debates, no candidate appearances, no democracy taking place ... then we had an election with long lines in some areas ... what has really changed ??? if candidates were afraid to be known and afraid to appear before the vote, do you think they will be less fearful now??? no progress, absolutely none, has been made towards resolving the central conflict ...

some have stated that the election should not be viewed in black and white terms but rather in shades of "gray" ... the truth is, though, that the election wasn't anything at all ... the problem in Iraq, since Saddam was deposed, has always been the need to develop a workable formula for shared power ... how does having the Shia standing in long lines and voting produce a workable formula ??? the sad truth is that it doesn't ... the elections may have given some a "warm and fuzzy" but it's more important to keep your eye on the real ball ... the concern that has always been the achilles heal of democracies, the "tyranny of the majority", has not been addressed at all ... yesterday's vote in the absence of a negotiated formula failed to address this problem ...

[GirlWithoutAPlanet]

1. Assyrians Prevented By Kurds From Voting in North Iraq

In a brazen and nearly unbelievable move, the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) headed by warlord Masoud Barzani has prevented voting by Assyrian (also known as Chaldean and Syriac) Christians of the Nineveh Plain in northern Iraq. According to a series of reports from inside Iraq, the KDP effectively blocked the delivery of ballot boxes to six major Assyrian towns and villages in the Plains around Mosul including Baghdeda, Bartilla, Karemlesh, Shekhan, Ain Sifne and Bahzan.

Thousands of would be voters were left stranded outside polling places awaiting an opportunity to cast their ballots. Inquiries to voting authorities brought frequent promises that the ballot boxes were en route only to result in a series of disappointments throughout the day. Infuriated Assyrians filled the streets of Baghdeda- the largest Assyrian town in the Nineveh Plain-and demonstrated against the KDP's overt disenfranchisement of Assyrians.

(more)

http://www.aina.org/releases/20050131003708.htm

[welshTerrier2]

5. powerful article !!

thanks for posting it ...

and welcome to DU, GirlWithoutAPlanet !!!

here's another snip from the article you posted that contradicts some of the dog and pony show too many of us are getting conned by:

The outright denial of voting rights to Assyrians and other non-Kurdish minorities culminates several months of intimidation, beatings, beheadings, burnings, and mutilations of Assyrian Christians in the Nineveh Plain. Just two weeks before the elections, Archbishop Basil George Casmusa of the Syriac Catholic church was also kidnapped. Although he was released one day later, his abduction and the series of escalating attacks were earlier reported by numerous sources (AINA, 09-13-2004, 08-07-2004, 06-20-2004) as an attempt to drive out Assyrians from their homes and to intimidate potential remaining voters into staying home on election day.

[LynnTheDem]

32. But the Kurds are bush's "allies" so they can do whatever they want.

Such as continue to oppress and slaughter Turkmen and Christians and each other. bushCartel & the bushbots bitch & whine about Iran...yet seem totally unaware of exactly who the Kurds are, and always have been, aligned with, and the yearly long list of atrocities committed BY the Kurds.

I guess the Kurds never heard about bush's being willing to attack the Kurds if Turkey would allow use of their land to launch US forces from.

Turkey said no deal; can't use our land, so bush went with the Kurds as his ally. Kurds need to think very carefully about their "ally" who is so willing to turn against them, and Americans need to think very carefully about exactly who bush calls America's "allies". Most of the worst human rights abusers on this planet are included in bush's "ally" list.

[kwassa]

2. not total bullshit, something important happened, I think

Speaking as someone who detests Bush and this war, what the vote did show was a strong desire by a lot of Iraqis to have a democratic government. It really served as the ultimate poll about how they felt, since it is nearly impossible for reporters to travel around the country.

That, by itself, is important, regardless of anything else. I was also impressed by the bravery of those who went to the polls in defiance of terror threats. This is also important in demonstrating motivation on the part of the averatge Iraqi citizen to be free of the insurgency and Saddam, both.

Whether or not this ends up in a viable government, I don't know. The news reports I watched, on CBS and other stations DID show Sunnis going to the polls, though not in numbers like the Kurds and Shia.

[headin_south]

6. Kwassa...

i agree! you have to give the people their props, in spite of death threats, they were out to vote. just hope the crew they get won't be bought and paid for by shrub and the halliburton crew. they deserve better!

[K-W]

7. That is a rediculous analysis of the election.

All this election showed is that shiites and kurds want power and they want the US to leave.

Nothing even remotely related to democracy happens when ethnic and religious factions use an illigitimate election to try and grab power from an illigitimate occyping force.

This wasnt democracy, this wasnt about voting or freedom. This was about the Shiaites and Kurds thinking that voting would lead to thier factions having power and the US leaving. Thats it.

[rkc3]

17. What happens if they create a religious government and

ask the US to leave immediately?

The bush team wants a secular democratic government (just like here in the US - ha ha). If the Iraqis decide theirs is to be a religious-based government like Iran, what the hell will we do then?

Maybe more elections until they get it right?

[K-W]

20. Exactly, they have no power to make us leave. It wont happen.

First off, the US doesnt let anyone near the government that it doesnt think it can work with them. But if the new Iraqi leadership, crafted, structured, and informed by the US government manages to resist against them, they would be labled terrorists and removed.

We went through all this trouble to replace saddam because he wouldnt let us control Iraq through him, why on earth would we let some people just boot us out?

[LynnTheDem]

31. But according to such posters as the 2 above

(and a search by author will explain much) ELECTIONS = DEMOCRACY.

And when Iraqis decide to have another dictatorship, albeit non-secular this time, that will make Iraq a "democracy". LOL!

Of course that means UZBEKISTAN is a DEMOCRACY using such ridiculous thinking. And PALESTINE just had elections...gee, Palestine must be a democracy!

:eyes:

[welshTerrier2]

21. the US will NOT be asked to leave ...

at least, i don't think so ... bush has already stated that he's spoken to the people who were going to get elected (i wonder how he knew who they were ...) and was told they wanted us to stay ... he wouldn't have made that statement if the arrangements hadn't already been taking care of ...

it's total speculation but I never believed Sistani's "medical trip" to London last year was really for medical reasons ... i think a deal has been cut with Sistani and keeping U.S. troops in Iraq was part of the package ... god only knows what Sistani had to give up ... i'm sure whatever it was, Halliburton and Bechtel will be very happy ...

[Bleys]

29. Send in the marines...

Then we wait a year and send in the marines for another war.

-josh
mockriot - news discussion

[Individualist]

8. and you believe everything the teevee tells you.

:crazy:

[K-W]

9. And if you needed yesterday to prove that Iraqis want control and freedom

I have a hard time not thinking you are a racist.

[kwassa]

19. huh? where does this come from?

[John BigBootay]

14. What will happen there remains to be seen...

Anyone stating categorically that nothing good will come from the election-- or that it cannot be legitimate because some people did not vote in sufficient numbers or were denied the right to vote by warlords are being overly pessimistic.

This is a first step-- one of perhaps many more-- or perhaps none more.

Perhaps democracy goes no further than yesterday's historic but flawed first vote-- or perhaps it goes much further and flourishes.

The decision now falls into the hands of the elected representatives to craft a constitution. If it is a wise constitution and it is binding then there will be more elections and it will outlaw discrimination and efforts to supress minority votes.

This will take time and effort on everyone's behalf in Iraq-- just as it took time and effort here in the states-- and sadly we are still working on it.

I don't discount this election, nor do I have false expectations from it. I am cautiously optimistic.

[welshTerrier2]

23. "the ultimate poll about how they felt"

yes, perhaps many were brave to have taken the risk to cast their votes ... of course, a poll I saw (sorry, no link) suggested that 40% of those who voted thought they were voting for a new President (they weren't) ...

the elections didn't teach us "how they felt" ... we already knew that ... i was confident the Shia did not enjoy life under Saddam's rule and wanted to have a say in their future ... i'm glad they voted ... but it completely ignores the REAL PROBLEM ...

until a regional negotiation can occur, there will be no stability in Iraq ... do you think the people who got elected yesterday will just drive on up to Baghdad and meet in the public square?

i think what the "ultimate poll about how they felt" told me was that no progress has been made solving the problems Iraq faces ... lines of voters might look good on TV, but I don't think things will be looking good in Iraq just because the election was held and people voted ... "playing pretend democracy" when major groups were left out is nothing to feel too good about ...

[kwassa]

35. so what?

welshTerrier2:
"the elections didn't teach us "how they felt" ... we already knew that"

You might THINK you know that, along with every other "expert" that thinks they know, including every talking head pundit on the left or right.

But no one knows without the vote. There is no substitute.

If the Sunnis don't go to the polls it is their own fault. They made that choice. It is just like the US where many don't vote. If they had the opportunity to vote, and didn't take it, then that is their problem. Some Sunnis had the extenuating circumstance of fear of their fellow Sunnis or other insurgents, and the newly elected seem to be keeping a place for them, and not shutting the door to them.

But if the Sunni boycott, so what? They had an opportunity to participate, choose not to, and basically have no right to complain. If the new government doesn't represent them, it is their own fault.

[jmatthan]

34. When your food supply and rations are

threatened, many had no option but to go and vote.

I think that is called economic blackmail!!

And when there is a fatwa, again you have no option but to go and vote!!

I think that is called religous blackmail!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[illflem]

3. See any parallels here?

Only need to look back at history to see what good it did

U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote:
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

New York Times September, 4, 1967

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.


EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/results.html?st=advanced&datetype=0&sortby=RELEVANCE&restrict=articles&QryTxt=U.S.%20Encouraged%20by%20Vietnam%20Vote

[tnlefty]

10. Thanks so much for posting this. I've been trying to find it.

Thanks again!

[Ms. Clio]

11. Incredible--I did not know that, thanks for posting this

Just change a few words, and it could be reports from this latest fake election:

United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in (Iraq's) election despite an (insurgent) terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from (Baghdad), 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the (insurgents).

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the (insurgents) to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

[Moderator]

22. illflem

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.

DU Moderator

[Blue_Roses]

4. You make an

excellent point:

before the elections, candidates were invisible ... there were no public debates, no candidate appearances, no democracy taking place ... then we had an election with long lines in some areas ... what has really changed ??? if candidates were afraid to be known and afraid to appear before the vote, do you think they will be less fearful now??? no progress, absolutely none, has been made towards resolving the central conflict ...

:thumbsup:

[K-W]

13. If I remember correctly, the only public debate

was on the lone topic of whether or not to have elections.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

12. Some areas had no voting.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1402253,00.html
Mixed message as Sunnis go to polls
Rory McCarthy in Baghdad
Monday January 31, 2005
The Guardian

-snip-

But other areas saw few voters. One man in Adhamiya, a violent Sunni suburb of northern Baghdad, said although some polling stations were open there was little sign of any voters. "There is a polling station in a school near us but we haven't seen anyone going to vote," Nafir Salah, a student, said.

Reports from Samarra, another Sunni town north of Baghdad, said there had been several gun battles and few voters.

In Ramadi, a violent provincial capital to the west, one resident said most polling stations appeared to be closed.

"There are no cars in the street and although there have been people walking there is no sign of anyone going to vote," Bilal al-Bedawi said by telephone. "The polling stations are closed and the election workers didn't come." In Baiji, another Sunni town north of the capital, polling stations were also closed because staff there were too scared to work.

[Swamp Rat]

15. There was NO election in Iraq.

Just a fantasy on TV. Propaganda for the masses.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. Was this STILL worth thousands of dead & the near-bankrupting of the US?

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

18. We ruined our countries reputation and totally ignored much worse problems

The rest of the world hates us. In addition, we have let everything else go thanks to this war.... Several countries such as Iran and North Korea have been allowed to further develop the nuclear weapons programs and Afghanistan has almost fallen back into the hands of the REAL terrorists.

The groups and countries we really should be worried about are still running around free...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[welshTerrier2]

25. this is not a partisan analysis about personalities ...

if Kerry had followed the same misguided policies as bush followed, i would have had the identical criticisms of yesterday's election ...

the bottom line here is that there will definitely not be "a solution" in Iraq while the US continues its military occupation ... and there may not be "a solution" when we leave either ...

the current strategy appears to be "we broke it so we better break it some more" ...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[welshTerrier2]

30. oh, i don't necessarily disagree ...

but we should still leave if we're going to make a horrible situation even worse ... i would never suggest that leaving will offer any guarantees of improvement ...

right now, i think the US IS the enemy ... we're killing that poor country ...

[welshTerrier2]

26. btw ...

welcome to DU, The_Anchorman ...

are you really an anchorman ??

[The_Anchorman]

27. Thanks

Thank you!

HA...no...I just loved Will Ferrell in the movie "The Anchorman", and couldn't think of a better handle.

[Sirveri]

33. How can you be a informed voter when you don't know the candidates?

I don't get it, we don't know there name and I guess they only knew basic posistion statements and planks? Kinda hard to research your candidate.

[eridani]

36. "Those who vote decide nothing--

--those who count the votes decide everything." --Joseph Stalin

Now, I don't expect the MSM to wonder about oversight of this part of the processs, but it is disturbing than none of the unembedded people mention it either. Not Pilger, Palast, Fisk, Dahr Jamail, Raed, Riverbend, nobody. Whassup with that?