Is it truly possible to be antiwar and promilitary? I just cannot rectify

[efhmc]

these things in my mind. I see sites asking for this and that for the soldiers serving in Iraq and my heart goes out to those kids as fellow humans but when I think of the misery they are causing in that country, I just can't reconcile the two ideas.

[DrWeird]

1. I don't see how somebody can be prowar and promilitary.

You can't support the troops and support the war at the same time.

[Catch22Dem]

6. exactly (n/t)

[tk2kewl]

8. Yes you can be both pro-military and anti-war

We have a military. We need a military. The military's purpose is to defend our country. I support all of these statements.

The Iraq War is being fought for neocon ideologues ideas of new world order and control of oil reserves, not for the defense of the U.S.

Sending our soldiers to die for ideologies rather than defense of our country is WRONG. We were supposed to have learned this after Vietnam.

I do not support the war. I support the military.

[marmar]

21. Agreed ...

You need a military for DEFENSE and to get involved when the reasons are completely legitimate, ala Rwanda or Kosovo. The problem here is with the Commander in Chief, sending the military into a sham war and perhaps destroying its morale and effectiveness permanently. What kid in their right mind would sign up for the Armed Services right now?

[TheFarseer]

27. Why is Kosovo or Rwanda more legitimate?

I don't understand why so many democrats liked those wars, when the reasons for them were basicaly the same reasons the bush administration are now claiming for the war in Iraq.

[poe]

32. please do some deep research on kosovo and rwanda

The US promoted destabilization, using tribalism or religious fanaticism or whatever worked wherever popular resistance to corporate power appeared in the world

[Sirveri]

59. I did.

But I joined the Navy before the draft kicks up and everyone else gets the bright idea to ditch into the Navy to avoid Iraq.

In fact we have so many people waiting to get in that they've extended the waiting list for boot camp to 15 months.

[Rockerdem]

39. The Swiss dont see a dilemma

The seem to have it right.

[efhmc]

40. No one who does not allow all rights for women has anything RIGHT!!!

[Rockerdem]

47. Wow, pardon me.

[efhmc]

49. You are pardoned by this avid feminist, since you asked so nicely.

[Rockerdem]

52. Thanks. Could you fill me in?

I only know scant things about Switzerland. Whats their problem(s)?

[davhill]

61. Up to a few years ago they didn't allow women to vote

[Clark2008]

2. Because it's not the soldiers' fault

They do what they're told and, if they don't, they get court marshalled.

You can love and respect and honor the troops, who are putting themselves in harms way (sometimes even for protecting this country, which isn't the case in Iraq) and hate the war and the politicians who start it.

[Merlot]

18. "...hate the war and the politicians who start it."

Soldiers don't start wars.

[mopinko]

3. what if they gave a war and nobody came

i hear ya. no soldiers, so war.

[Warpy]

13. Yeah, and some country WITH soldiers will run right over you.

As long as we have organized societies, property, and all the rest of the things that make our lives a little easier, we will need trained people to defend those things.

However, we do not need a bloated Pentagon that exists mostly as a welfare program for arms dealers, and which provides a revolving door with arms lobbying firms. We don't need an imperial army with bases all over the world.

We do need a defensive force, the best one that we can possibly produce.

We don't need them wasted on an old man's vanity and a younger man's ambition.

[The Sheik]

4. Of course its possilbe to be antiwar and promilitary!

In fact, you really are being promilitary if you are antiwar, especially one like this current war. And also, these troops are given orders, because they are destroying Iraq really isnt their fault, its the generals and politicians that are pulling their strings.

[Catch22Dem]

5. Sure

I was in the military for 8 years and I'm antiwar. I believe in defending my country because I love it. I do NOT believe in starting wars for profit or wars based on lies. I view the military purely as a means of defense only, thus I feel I can justify being pro-military.

[Osamasux]

11. What he said.

[efhmc]

12. I was thinking of sending some things that were asked for for the

soldiers (I live close to Ft. Hood) and was only going to do so if I could write a letter with my anti-war sentiments with my donations. Then, I starting wondering if that was just ego on my part and if I should not do anything rather than subject some poor stressed out person to my point of view.

[Catch22Dem]

14. Well...

First of all, I was born at Ft. Hood. :D

Second, in my opinion (and I'm likely to get ridden out on a rail for saying it) you should hold off on the letter and just hook them up with some goodies. Believe me, they KNOW how fucked up war is. Just remember, the psychos you see shooting unarmed prisoners and torturing people don't represent the majority. I promise.

[efhmc]

16. Yeah, on a human and person to person level, I think it is the right

thing to do (without the lecturing letter) and just let it go at that. Morally, I just needed some DU support, whether pro or con.

[necso]

20. Good, thank you. /nt

[bloom]

24. " they KNOW how fucked up war is"

No - they don't all know. Some hate the Iraqis. That is what they have learned and that is their "reality".

I don't know about the "majority". I expect it's about even.

[Catch22Dem]

28. If you truly think it's even

You need some military friends. Or perhaps the military friends I had were too much like me. Either way, I never said they all know it. I also know that there are those who get off on "killin' ragheads" but I refuse to condemn the entire military population due to the actions of the worst among them.

[bloom]

30. I do know people in the military...

though I mostly avoid talking with the rah rah types - when I can help it. I don't really appreciate people who glory in the death of others.


There was also the story about the latrines - Kerry & Bush sentiments on the walls. Sounded like it was probably pretty even...

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040930040635.ep6eoxnz.html

[Catch22Dem]

53. My perception is skewed

I was in a highly technical field. Enlisted men and women in my job almost always had associates degrees. I had a B.S. and knew a few older guys who had gotten their masters as well. I'm not trying to imply anything, but usually the better educated, the more reasoned. Ya know? Now, if you get into the infantry areas, there's a good chance you're gonna see those rah rah types. Like you, I tended to avoid them.

[politicaholic]

7. Don't hate the player hate the game?

You may want to look at it this way, the longer Iraq is drawn out, the more soldiers there are going to be next to you arm and arm in the protest marches.

[SnoopDog]

9. In my opinion... there is nothing wrong with having a military..

I am absolutely against war - it is the archaic tool of idiots and religious thugs.

However, humans must have the ability to protect ones self. In the same respect that the human body has 'white blood cells' to protect and kill 'bugs', we need a military to defend ourselves.

To defend oneself is noble.

[whistle]

10. Sure, if the military is a true citizen's army and fights only when...

..absolutely necessary for the country's survival. This corporate military system we have is total horse-shit designed to perpetuate conflicts and war around the globe and soon in outer space for the profit of war mongers around the globe.

[tabasco]

15. If you had ever been in the military I think you could understand.

The Commander In Chief is supposed to send our troops to war only when there is a just cause and as a last resort. Bush has violated this trust in a most terrible way. It is not the fault of the troops. It is Bush's fault.

I spent many years in uniform and some of the finest people I know are in Iraq.

On the other hand, troops that violate the law should be prosecuted and punished severely. I have no sympathy for troops that mistreat prisoners or civilians.

[efhmc]

19. See, thoughts like this help me see things in a different light. Thanks.

I am really, really opposed to this war but can see where these soldiers have no choice in the matter.

[noamnety]

17. I'm a vet

and you can definitely support the troops and oppose the war. The real mission of the military is peace-keeping, really. All defense is supposed to be a matter of peace-keeping.

What we need (aside from missions that aren't illegal and irresponsible) are more people in the military (and in charge) who can comprehend the results of their actions and the actions of those around them, and less people who are xenophobic fundies hellbent on tormenting anyone who looks foreign.

There are people like Taguba in the military that believe in accountability. Or even a guy I saw posting on a message board about ovens, some bakery had been bombed in Iraq, and he was online trying to get instructions for how to build a traditional style baking oven that would serve an entire community - I'm sure he wasn't doing that on orders from Rumsfeld. Don't get so caught up in hating the way that the military is being used that you lose sight of that.

[ElectroPrincess]

22. Whoa! I'm not going anywhere NEAR answering this question.

LOL But you're welcome to guess. :grouphug:

[Gyre]

23. You can do it

if you imagine a military that isn't prone to unprovoked violence, regardless of orders from Washington. That is an idealistic construct you can use which actually resonates with most people's concepts of the military (a defensive-only organization). I think that's the way it's supposed to be. If you can make yourself believe that, and understand that it's being misused badly in Afghanistan and Iraq, and soon in Iran, you can feel sorry for them. They're under the UCMJ. They can't just walk away because they feel conflicted once they're there. On the other hand, many of the army guys who've never seen anything other than the interior of a compound are still true believers. They're easy to identify and to hate.

The marines are the ones being ordered into the streets. I feel sorry for them. Sucks to be subject to the will of avaricious and violent civilian criminals who order you into harms way.

Gyre

[bloom]

25. Just like people are brainwashed growing up

to think the annihilation of the Native American population was inevitable - people will justify the murder through war in every conflict.

There are not wars without leaders and the people who carry them out.

Generally the people deciding on having the war manage to enrich themselves - and it's the poor and middle class that fight it for the money (meager in comparison to the leaders, of course) or for some delusion of creating "freedom" or something. IMO.

As far as defense goes - anyone entering the military in the US should know it is NOT a defensive one.

[efhmc]

31. Most of the soldiers I see around here are obviously not your average

middle class kids. They are, in the main, minorities that are looking for a way up and out of lives that are doomed to failure. I cannot fault them for looking for a way out of stagnant, if not destructive lives. I just wish we offered them another alternative. Barring the human element, I agree with everything you wrote.

[sweetheart]

26. There is a difference between "promilitary" and militarism

The former means to have a well trained and equipped armed force to
defend one's nation and people from hostile forces. The latter is a
way of life, to corrupt ones culture towards endless war, elevating war
and abuse as a form of social value, and all the degeneration of the
displaced civilian values that engenders.

In japanese bushido (code of the warrior), there is a very strict
discipline about war and the arts of war. When one draws the sword,
it is only to kill absolutely, totally, intensely and without remorse,
otherwise the sword stays sheathed. As the sword only comes out when
it kills (draws blood (even in training, some bleed the sword with every
drawing)), the metaphor of war is only an absolute end end resort,
something to be avoided by all means as it means the unthinkable.

This is not militarism in the least. It is being impeccable in the arts
of war. Rather, militarism is the bully that waves the sword around to
scare people and to induce fear... it is no value of a true warrior.
A true warrior only kills... and otherwise, if their life is not
threatened, asks the question (is my life at danger... if so, draw
sword... if not or avoidable, parry, negotiate, apologize and deferr)

This if we extrapolate the metaphor, a warrior nation appears anything
but, as the world knows, that the sword will only come out if the
nation is threatened... and then god help whomever it opposes. Rather
militarism, is waving the sword about, like the american barbarian
junta, instilling fear, and bullying about the playground, making
enemies so that over the long haul, there are many black eyes awaiting
the bully in future times.... black eyes an honourable warrior would
have avoided by their impeccability.

In this regard, the military establishment is at fault, as they have
advised wrongly putting the american people at risk (top command of
the military mind you), rather than be humble and wise with the
power they wield. As they've acted like brigands and bandits, true
warriors can only observe from the black deathly silence of the
darkest darkness that a warrior's soul calls home... death before
death... and a true warrior aligns themselves against the brigands,
whatever the odds.

Rent the movie "the seven samurai" and after watching it, answer your
own question about who is pro-war, the bandits, or the samurai. Ask
who is the hero, the samurai who only fights for justice, or the
bully who uses power to steal... and in this regard, the foul
stench that calls itself the GOP, has been a dishonourable plague
on the true warrior spirit of America.

[efhmc]

35. Whoa, my brain is having trouble being that esoteric and intellectual

this evening. I just plain am against killing. About the only thing I can kill without thinking about it are cockroaches. The thought of killing another human no matter how wrong or evil seems like something I just do not have the right to decide to do. Simplistic when I really think about it, because I am sure glad that we are not part of Nazi Germany now (although many may doubt that we are not at the beginning of a different type of bush fascism.)so in my own way I do condone killing only for the "right" cause.

[sweetheart]

44. Plainly speaking...

A true warrior only shows him/herself when the situation calls for it,
and until then, keeps their warrior skills honed sharp as a matter of
impeccability, not public display or aggandizement. When you need a
warrior to defend yourself from hitler, you call on your natural warrior
caste (kshatriya), who are people with born warrior in thier souls,
not necessarily military people... as the american military is these
days a ticket to torture, brutality, breaking poeple, barbarism and all
that is anathema to integrity.

So in your post, there is that danger of bad mouthing the real warriors
in american society, the real ones, who are guardians of civility and
goodwill even in these trying times... like so many writers on DU,
politicians like Hillary, Kerry, Kucinich... spiritual masters like
Adida, Gangaji, and so many more nameless others... real warriors that
fight for civility, enlightenment, decency and awakening for all peoples
irregardless of passport, creed or colour.

We are all warriors and each day is a battle where we either let the
forces of light win through us, or the forces of darkness advance by
our negligence and ignorance. The battle is inside of us, and each and
every single person must realize that their warrior soul is not
in iraq killing civilians on bush's orders... no no... it is you
making space for your loved ones and your decent participation in
a civil free society under assault from the criminals in white house
et. al.

[efhmc]

48. Reading that was clear and uplifting. I thank you for it.

[poe]

50. Why are we all talking about war?

because it is embedded in the lingua franca of our disturbed and fundamentally sick society.. You have much to offer the world i hope your gems are being offered to those on the fence.
Another point:Consider the resource extraction, habitat destruction, soil contamination etc. that are integral to the war machine. War is not the natural human condition nor inevitable.
www.warresisters.org
Se rebeller est juste, désobéir est un devoir, agir est nécessaire !

[sweetheart]

51. American indian warriors

I call your attention back to an age of great warriors, of the old
tribes of america. THAT is what i'm calling a warror... someone who
is deeply intimate with the land and comes from a place of deep spiritual
awakening... not some facile video-games jockey.

Sorry the terms are the same, but you're right that it is the
lingua franca... and it goes back from before the white man, to when
the continent was ruled by profoundly beautiful warriors and a great
culture of a matriarchy.

A spiritual warrior engages the battle of enlightenment and spiritual
awakening... not lower, outer graft and theft.

I'm sorry i did not make that clear. The tendency to brand all
warriors as low, based on the behaviour of the mugs in the US services
is a sad repurcussion... but we should resist the tendency to take
the iraq/vietnam sterotype of the jolly green giants too far... they
are but slaves... real warriors are writing in this thread, like yourself;
guided to inspire awakening, in a futile battle we cannot but lose in
this inhospitable world.

[poe]

54. A historical fact and an antecdote....

During the misnamed "Indian Wars" there were many recorded incidents of the white man returning to the "Red" man's world after prisoner exchanges. Ben Franklin, among others commented on this and wondered at what the appeal was in that "savage" culture. On the other side not one recorded incident of a "red savage" returning to the civilized white world.
A General in the African Army during WW2 would not allow his soldiers to torture the Italian POW's even though they knew the horror stories of how the Italians tortured their comrades. He stated "They may be our enemies but they are not our teachers." I learn this from Harry Belafonte.

Your insight is needed now in the world. Take your message into uncomfortable places.

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Yes.

I see the military as a tool, like a hammer. You don't get angry at the hammer, you get angry at the arm weilding the hammer.

I am promilitary as far as watchdogging the government to make sure they don't use them in improper or immoral manners, to make sure they are paid a decent wage (they aren't, for the most part), to make sure they have good medical care, housing, etc.

But I wish they would only be used for DEFENSE. It's not called the Department of OFFENSE.

[Djinn]

33. yes an no

people's defintions of "pro-war" and "pro-military" will change. I have no problem with the military existing, and having it well trained and well resourced should a need for defence arise.

However war's are RARELY fought for noble erasons, they sometimes have good outcomes but that's never the reason, the UK/US and Russia did NOT fight the Nazi's to save the Jews or any of teh other victims of the Nazi's, Vietnam didn't invade Cambodia to save Cambodians from the killing fields. Nations always have and always will fight for strategic and financial reasons, and I have real trouble supporting that.

As for this particular war, I'm against it 100% and while that DOESN'T mean I wish soldiers in Iraq any harm I can't wish for them to "win" either and I can't wish them "luck" because that means BAD luck for th Iraqis.

[poe]

34. War is a Racket-Brig. Gen. Smedley Butler

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
Take our own case. Until 1898 we didn't own a bit of territory outside the mainland of North America. At that time our national debt was a little more than $1,000,000,000. Then we became "internationally minded." We forgot, or shunted aside, the advice of the Father of our country. We forgot George Washington's warning about "entangling alliances." We went to war. We acquired outside territory. At the end of the World War period, as a direct result of our fiddling in international affairs, our national debt had jumped to over $25,000,000,000. Our total favorable trade balance during the twenty-five-year period was about $24,000,000,000. Therefore, on a purely bookkeeping basis, we ran a little behind year for year, and that foreign trade might well have been ours without the wars.

It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements. For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people – who do not profit.
Who provides the profits – these nice little profits of 20, 100, 300, 1,500 and 1,800 per cent? We all pay them – in taxation. We paid the bankers their profits when we bought Liberty Bonds at $100.00 and sold them back at $84 or $86 to the bankers. These bankers collected $100 plus. It was a simple manipulation. The bankers control the security marts. It was easy for them to depress the price of these bonds. Then all of us – the people – got frightened and sold the bonds at $84 or $86. The bankers bought them. Then these same bankers stimulated a boom and government bonds went to par – and above. Then the bankers collected their profits.

But the soldier pays the biggest part of the bill.

If you don't believe this, visit the American cemeteries on the battlefields abroad. Or visit any of the veteran's hospitals in the United States. On a tour of the country, in the midst of which I am at the time of this writing, I have visited eighteen government hospitals for veterans. In them are a total of about 50,000 destroyed men – men who were the pick of the nation eighteen years ago. The very able chief surgeon at the government hospital; at Milwaukee, where there are 3,800 of the living dead, told me that mortality among veterans is three times as great as among those who stayed at home.

Boys with a normal viewpoint were taken out of the fields and offices and factories and classrooms and put into the ranks. There they were remolded; they were made over; they were made to "about face"; to regard murder as the order of the day. They were put shoulder to shoulder and, through mass psychology, they were entirely changed. We used them for a couple of years and trained them to think nothing at all of killing or of being killed.

Then, suddenly, we discharged them and told them to make another "about face" ! This time they had to do their own readjustment, sans mass psychology, sans officers' aid and advice and sans nation-wide propaganda. We didn't need them any more. So we scattered them about without any "three-minute" or "Liberty Loan" speeches or parades. Many, too many, of these fine young boys are eventually destroyed, mentally, because they could not make that final "about face" alone
A few profit – and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it by peace parleys at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out by resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war.

The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labor before the nations manhood can be conscripted. One month before the Government can conscript the young men of the nation – it must conscript capital and industry and labor. Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our munitions makers and our shipbuilders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all the other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted – to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get.
To summarize: Three steps must be taken to smash the war racket.

We must take the profit out of war.

We must permit the youth of the land who would bear arms to decide whether or not there should be war.

We must limit our military forces to home defense purposes.
TO HELL WITH WAR!
www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[efhmc]

38. Yes, but I heard a young man who had lost an arm in Iraq on NPR

yesterday who was being asked about the elections and whether they were worth it and he answered that he thought they were because if he didn't then he would be a miserable person. So is the worth really there for him or is it a delusional thing? I think delusional but I am certainly not going to be the one to argue that point with him. That is the price on a horribly human level to that deceived young man.

[poe]

42. Here's a different question...

How much more can the earth take and what organism is destroying the most habitat?
The US Pentagon is the worlds worst polluter and ecological destroyer by far. War isn't just about bombs and human devastation it is about mineral extraction, water pollution, soil contamination, etc.
www.warresisters.org

[efhmc]

46. Once took a religous class that spoke about all the problems with

the misuse of human and other resources that had come about because of WWI (fuel consumption, as well as the destruction of the countless numbers of productive and creative young lives)and that was a "good and necessary" war.

[K-W]

36. NM

Nevermind

[BamaGirl]

37. Yes, of course it is. I'm a Vet and

my husband is in the military. Any enlisted soldier can tell you you follow orders-period. Voice an objection if you have one, but follow orders or get court martialed. Iraq is the CiC's responsibility. Not that I ever expect him to own up to it.

[shawcomm]

41. It's not easy is it?

On the one hand, they did volunteer to go kill, and many enjoy it. Then again, most of those who volunteered, did so out of pressure because they're poor.

I guess it boils down to they're a tool of imperialist America, and you can't really lay blame on the tool, just the handler.

Well, bush IS a tool, but you know what I mean.

[efhmc]

43. The *bush part is easy, that is immoral and evil. The rest is hard.

[NAO]

45. anti-war, anti-military, anti-soldiers, all different positions

and there are differences within each position.

Most people will agree that there are SOME just wars. For example, when Hitler invaded Poland, almost everyone would concede that it was morally justified for the Polish Military to wage a defensive war against the invading Nazis.

Another very important distinction is between 'the military' as an institution and the individual people in the military.

The institution ('the military') is necessary, in some capacity, because of the need to be able to defend against external aggression and wage a just war.

Attitudes against 'the military' are really misdirected dissent against politicians that USE the military to wage unjust wars, such as wars of aggression against sovereign nations that pose no threat.

'The Military' as an institution is an organization designed to WIN wars, and to WAGE wars, as directed by (allegedly) elected politicians. They (the military) do not have the power to decide to go to war - nor do they have the power to decide NOT to go to war. That power resides in civilian (purportedly) elected officials.

The soldiers and other personal in the military are in one sense employees, doing a job. However, because of the inherent atrocities involved in even entirely justified wars, and because their lives (always) and our freedom (sometimes) are at risk, their obligation to do 'their job' goes far beyond the normal employer/employee relationship. It is critical to their function that they follow orders and only question actions within the proper channels and in the proper context.

I don't think there is any way around the need for the military and for military discipline in the real world. The only thing we can do is elect responsible leaders, hold them accountable for their decisions, and publicly dissent when they are using OUR military to wage unjust wars.

But aggressive dissent against an unjust war does not in any way entail any disrespect for the military as an institution or any disrespect for the soldiers who serve in the military. They are getting the raw deal - not from anti-war protesters - but from politicians who are using them as cannon fodder to advance their own agendas.

[knight_of_the_star]

55. Yes

You like the idea of having a strong means of defending ourselves but are opposed to war except in the most dire of circumstances.

[autorank]

56. The military does what it does. Sometimes they're pointed in

the right direction, sometimes they're not. In either case, they do what they do; which can be pretty rough on the receiving end if it's our military. If you're a pacifist, they you can't reconcile the contradiction. If you're not, then it's all about the war and not the military. If you say, take this town, they will. You just have to make sure it's the right town.

The military can advise and try to influence. The Marine commanders stopped an attack on Fallujah several months ago. I didn't understand fully why they did that until I read descriptions and saw pictures of the attack recently. They knew what would happen, they knew it would be pointless, and they knew it would generate tremendous hate and make their already difficult jobs harder. Nevertheless, the attacked when ordered. It's what they do.

I liked what the guy said above: Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[BikeWriter]

57. The military is necessary for defense.

It doesn't make the decisions to kill people, politicians do. :(

[Skittles]

58. our military is being MISUSED by BUSH INC

I do support our military

[elderly man]

60. How about anticrime and propolice?