Does Bush believe in the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment?

[yankeedem]

Today's press conference, courtesy of Crooks and Liars


Q Scott, last night, in an amicus brief filed before the U.S. Supreme Court, the Justice Department came down in favor of displaying the Ten Commandments in courthouses and statehouses around the country. The question is, does the President believe in commandment number six, "Thou shalt not kill," as it applies to the U.S. invasion in Iraq?

MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead. Next question. Ken, go ahead.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/02/01.html#a1470

The video is on Cspan (Press Conference, 2/01) about 23 minutes in. Who was that bald man who asked the question?

[RPM]

1. never heard of that commandment

its not one of the fundy commandments

[sw04ca]

2. Weak.

This is a weak criticism, since 'Thou shalt not kill' was long ago interpreted to mean 'Thou shalt not murder' by the church. The old time church was very utilitarian about these sorts of things, and made some killing justified, like war, self defense and executions.

[yankeedem]

3. So let me ask you, in your religion

is killing innocent civilians in an unarmed country not murder?

[sw04ca]

5. I don't have a religion...

...but my answer is "not neccessarily, although it can be."

[classof56]

9. It's a tough issue.

I agree that killing innocent civilians is ugly, horrible and very hard to reconcile with the commandment about not killing. But if we define it that way, then it seems it would make our soldiers, fighting at the direction of our commander in chief, guilty of murder. And they'd be the ones stuck with the charges and the responsibility, as is happening now in the torture scandal, because it will never go all the way to the top.

As for Bush--he doesn't care about anything--including those ten commandments--or anybody but his rich buddies. It's that plain and simple. Sad, but that's the bottom line.

Tired Old Cynic

[arcane1]

6. 100,000 Iraqi civilains killed in this war alone

that is murder, my friend, plain and simple

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcane1]

8. are you suggesting there is a difference?

if I walk up to a child and shoot him, that's murder, but if I bomb his house and kill him, it's not?

that a fucked-up morality if you ask me

[yankeedem]

10. That all depends to the Bushies

Did the kid have oil? It's not murder.
The kid didn't have oil? It's still not murder because he may want WMD's at some point in the future.

[sw04ca]

13. Indeed, there is a difference.

War is state-sanctioned killing, and is thus legal. Of course, whether this is right or not depends on the cause of the war, but ultimately, there is a difference. Case in point, the strategic bombing campaign in WWII.

You might not like the morality it's based upon, but it's the only one that allows society to function, since without war and state-sanctioned killing, we'd be in a pretty bad place right now.

[arcane1]

14. it is legal, and it is also murder

firebombing German cities and civilian areas was also murder, and because of the reasons for it (demoralizing the enemy's will to fight), it was also terrorism

whether a murder is legal or not, changes nothing

without war we would be in a bad place right now? How bad could a place be if it is without war?

you would feel differently if it was your house being bombed

[sw04ca]

19. Perhaps...

...but it was worth it, and in Roosevelt's position, knowing the consequences, I would do it again. Indeed, that's part of why Churchill ordered it, because he did know the circumstances. His house and city and people were firebombed.

In regards to a worse place, no place can truly be without war. However, if we were unwilling to engage in war, we would be destroyed by those who were willing to do so.

[ElectroPrincess]

18. If you're Catholic, only a JUST war is legal

Our Pope did not accept *'s invasion of Iraq as JUST. It doesn't matter how the American Bishops try to spin "The Holy Father's" words, for all people complain, The Pope did everything he could to try and stop the invasion.

[qwghlmian]

11. That was not an "interpretation" -

"thou shalt not murder" is the correct translation of the commandment that uses the root "ratzach" ("murder") in Hebrew. If the commandment was "thou shalt not kill", it would have used the word from the root "harog" ("kill") instead.

[ElectroPrincess]

16. In the Bible it's always *KILL* ... when people attempt to qualify

this commandment by using interpretations like "murder" ... well that's when things get convoluted.

We're NOT talking about an obscure Bible passage here. We're talking about the (if you're Christian like myself) the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

Therefore, to me, there's no interpretation that qualifies it as "murder" involved = Thou shalt not Kill.

[sw04ca]

20. But one has to realize that the...

Ten Commandments, as inspired divinely, were written in Hebrew, not Greek or Latin or English. And words do mean different things.

[qwghlmian]

25. In the original Hebrew the wording of the

commandment in question is "Al Tirtzach" - which means "Do not murder". The word "kill" is a different word in Hebrew. You are aware that the Bible was not originally written in English, right? The "thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation, and a fairly obvious one, considering how much "righteous" killing there is in the Bible.

[mdhunter]

17. Forgive them father, they know not what they do

How about as it applies to state executions?

[sw04ca]

21. State executions aren't murder. /nt

[mdhunter]

27. I'm curious how you distinguish the two.

Also curious is that many self proclaimed religous people are seemingly unconcerned about Jesus's words in my previous post.

If my lord and savior were a victim of state execution, I think I'd frown upon the practice.

[regnaD kciN]

26. Don't just put this on "the church"...

In Scripture, the Decalogue was given to Moses and the Hebrews who had escaped from Egypt. They clearly understood it as referring to individual murder of an innocent person within one's own people. Along with that commandment came a number of laws mandating the death penalty for a number of infractions, and those to whom the commandment was given, when entering the "promised land," thought nothing of waging aggressive war against those peoples already living there, to the point of cherem (the indiscriminate "ethnic cleansing" slaughter of all in a given city-state -- men, women, children, infants, even all their animals). In fact, to not participate in cherem was considered at that time to be severe disobedience to God.

The more pertinent question, since Bush claims to be a Christian, is whether he has ever considered following Christ's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, which include "turning the other cheek" and loving one's enemies...

[jazzjunkysue]

4. You mean, the king of death row? The war president? That one?

[wadestock]

12. It's all in the interpretation ....and guess what

All the prospective terrorists who will plan many future 911s will all intepret it as MURDER.

That's the esssential problem these knuckleheads overlooked.
The US should have gone public with an entirely different approach following 911. The message should have been....we are a peaceloving people, but we must defend ourselves...etc, etc...being tough but mature, not cocky and arrogant.

Then continue to track down OBL, etc. OBL got way more than he ever expected from 911...there would have been no real logic to think that he had to try and upstage 911....how could he?...that's almost an impossible act to follow.

Well...perhaps our actions will make them rethink that position.
The entire premise of 911 was US aggression in the Gulf, and now we've raised that ante to hmmm...let's convert the Middle East to US democracy?

So, in effect, we have now effectively played right into OBL's hands, providing more than sufficient BS to recruit 100s times more terrorists.

What's that sound????.....it's better to fight them over there....than over here???.....it's the sound of brains being sucked out of people's heads.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. He only believes it applies to controlling the choices of

"pregnant girls and women" and placating his base by forbidding "embryonic stem cell research."

Every other SIN which this Commandment might pertain to, in *'s opinion, is a mere judgment call. HIS judgment call seeing as he and his Fundy brethren believe that he was chosen by God.

:puke:

[maveric]

22. I dont think he beleives in ANY of the commandments.

Like most faux-christians you see now a days.

[superconnected]

23. no. Shows you how much of a practicing Christian he is...

All of the fundies fail this one. Just like they act like Jesus want's carnage.

Basically, if there is a god, they're going to hell.

On irc back in the eary 90's, the bible channels had a bunch of drug peddlers. You could buy drugs from people local to your area. Get it? Scum hides in the church where it doesn't expect to be detected.

[Dark]

24. No, but he does believe in the 'thou shalt not marry gays' one, wherever

it is in that book. . .

[indepat]

28. Actions speak so much lounder than words