"Imperialism not invincible"-Hugo Chavez at World Social Forum

[poe]

"Imperialism not invincible"

 

Chavez added that U.S. imperialism is not invincible. "Look at Vietnam, look at Iraq and Cuba resisting, and now look at Venezuela." In reference to the recommendations of some of his close advisors, he said that "some people say that we cannot say nor do anything that can irritate those in Washington." He repeated the words of Argentine independence hero José de San Martin "let’s be free without caring about anyone else says."

 

"When imperialism feels weak, it resorts to brute force. The attacks on Venezuela are a sign of weakness, ideological weakness. Nowadays almost nobody defends neoliberalism. Up until three years ago, just Fidel and I raised those criticisms at Presidential meetings. We felt lonely, as if we were infiltrated at those meetings."

 

He added that those ideological and economic weaknesses will continue to increase. "Just look at the internal repression inside the United States, the Patriot Act, which is a repressive law against the U.S. citizens. They have put in jail a group of journalists for not revealing their sources. They won't allow them to take pictures of the bodies of the dead soldiers, many of them Latinos, coming from Iraq. Those are signs of Goliath's weaknesses."
Chavez warned of drastic weather changes that would bring catastrophic events if no action is taken soon, in reference to uncontrolled or little regulated industrial activity. Chavez added that perhaps before those drastic changes take place, there will be rebellions everywhere "because the peoples are not going to accept in peace impositions such as neoliberalism or such as colonialism."

 

"The U.S. people are our brothers"

 

He added that all empires come to an end. "One day the decay inside U.S. imperialism will end up toppling it, and the great people of Martin Luther King will be set free. The great people of the United States are our brothers, my salute to them."

 

"We must start talking again about equality. The U.S. government talks about freedom and liberty, but never about equality. "They are not interested in equality. This is a distorted concept of liberty. The U.S. people, with whom we share dreams and ideals, must free themselves… A country of heroes, dreamers, and fighters, the people of Martin Luther King, and Cesar Chavez."

 

 Christ "revolutionary"

 

Chavez thanked Spanish intellectual and director of Lemonde Diplomatique Ignacio Ramonet for saying that Chavez was a new type of leader. He said he is inspired by old types of leaders such as Christ, whom he described as "one of the greatest anti-imperialist fighters, the redeemers of the poor, and own of the greatest revolutionaries of the history of the world." The President mentioned Venezuela’s independent hero Simon Bolivar, Brazil's José Ignacio Abreu Elima, Che Guevara "that Argentine doctor that traveled through the continent in a motorcycle and who was a witness of the U.S. invasion of Guatemala in 1955, one of the many invasions of the U.S. empire in this continent," and Cuban President Fidel Castro.

 

“Capitalism must be transcended”

 

"Everyday I become more convinced, there is no doubt in my mind, and as many intellectuals have said, that it is necessary to transcend capitalism. But capitalism can’t be transcended from with capitalism itself, but through socialism, true socialism, with equality and justice. But I’m also convinced that it is possible to do it under democracy, but not in the type of democracy being imposed from Washington," he said.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=7151

July 2003
The United States Is, and Should Be, an Empire

America is not just the most powerful nation on earth but, arguably, the most powerful nation in history. To protect the global trade routes of democratic capitalism and its own security interests, the United States can intervene anytime, anyplace. Although America’s domain is more seaborne, airborne, and space-based than territorial, some are beginning to refer to this Pax Americana as the American empire. Is the United States an empire? Should we call it that? On July 17, 2003, the New Atlantic Initiative organized a debate on this topic between two renowned authors-Niall Ferguson and Robert Kagan.

http://www.aei.org/events/filter.,eventID.428/summary.a...

[reprehensor]

1. Lay it down, Hugo!

Serve it up hawt!

[Stop_the_War]

2. Viva Hugo Chavez!

:yourock:

[Carolab]

3. Viva Chavez! Viva la revolucion!

"He said he is inspired by old types of leaders such as Christ, whom he described as "one of the greatest anti-imperialist fighters, the redeemers of the poor, and own of the greatest revolutionaries of the history of the world."

I want to move to Venezuela.

[hector459]

4. You just know the US has a target on his back. His words are much too

inpirational. People like him, save for Castro, usually don't escape the CIA assassin for long. May God protect him.

[musette_sf]

5. How come

the Thug Wingers aren't smoochin' him up like their favorite Hispandex, Torture Boy?

They're racists, I tell you! Racists!

(note: "hispandex" joke courtesy of Mike Judge)

[peacetalksforall]

6. He is talking people talk. Bush talks corporation talk.

The corporations have created a divide.

The people must win. No massacres. No slavery. No feudalism.

People must be able to rise to the highest of their potential as thinkers, inventors, diplomats, doctors, saints, - just plain honest helpers of all the people.

[peacetalksforall]

7. Bush talks freedom and liberty, not equality.

Great insight.

"We must start talking again about equality. The U.S. government talks about freedom and liberty, but never about equality. "They are not interested in equality. This is a distorted concept of liberty. The U.S. people, with whom we share dreams and ideals, must free themselves… A country of heroes, dreamers, and fighters, the people of Martin Luther King, and Cesar Chavez."

In addition, Bush only spout words - there is no meaning behind grand words such as freedom and libery.

Now watch...one of the interns or highly paid strategists will read this thread and include the word 'equality' in his SOTU tomorow night.

[Swamp Rat]

8. Oba! Desejo que eu fui a Porto alegre... quero participar!

O mundo libre está lá agora. Aqui está muito ruim. :cry: Vou mudar...

:kick:

[BrotherBuzz]

22. "I'm impressed. Que bueno......"

"I'm impressed. Que bueno. Now I am literate in two languages" - George Bush

Now, unlike Georgie, I'm curious and want to learn things. Could you translate for me or do I have to try bablefish? Thanks :)

[Swamp Rat]

41. Well, I don't think the stupid king knows Portugües, let alone Español y

Inglés.

I was just saying that I wish I was there in Porto Alegre, and that I am going to move there someday.

I miss Brasil... que saudades! :cry:

[JanMichael]

9. Commie Commie Commie Commie!!!!!

Well? Where are the pro-Corpo types?????

[JohnnyCougar]

10. He had me up untill the socialist part.

Until then, those were extremely encouraging words, words that sadly would never come out of any leader's mouths here. But socialism doesn't eliminate government evil, greed, and imperialism. Not any more than capitalism does. What we need is a democracy where the public pays attention pure and simple. And a national government with severe power limitations. It needs to be part of the national dialogue to understand who your leaders are and what your leaders do. At least 60% of this country doesn't have a frikin' clue, and it's probably a lot more.

[Pastiche423]

12. Did you not read a wee bit further?

"But I’m also convinced that it is possible to do it under democracy, but not in the type of democracy being imposed from Washington," he said.

He was not saying Socialism only, but w/the correct type of democracy.


I am seriously considering taking a Spanish class.

[JohnnyCougar]

20. I think it's easier under a democracy.

Just not a corrupt one like ours.

[AP]

58. I think he's saying that voters who know the truth would choose a degree

of socialism.

He's probably right.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. It's socialism or barbarism, to quote Rosa Luxemburg.

Never more so.

"We stand today ... before the awful proposition: either the triumph of imperialism and the destruction of all culture, and, as in ancient Rome, depopulation, desolation, degeneration, a vast cemetery; or, the victory of socialism."

[poe]

16. Way To Keep Her Memory Alive

:toast:

[K-W]

69. A good point. EOM

[shadowknows69]

15. Greed, for lack of a better word...is not good.

for children and other living things.

[JohnnyCougar]

18. Socialism doesn't stop greed

Greed is inherent in human nature, and will continue under socialism.

[shadowknows69]

27. I don't think working models of either work

history has proven (and is proving in our case) that any form of government only works as well as the people who hold the power in it. I agree humanity is inherently greedy to a certain extent. At least to a basic survival instinct form of greed. It's an individual's choice to evolve past that or not. My greed factor of wanting enough money to feed my family I hope is light years from a CEO's greed of wanting a new yacht this year so we better lay off 2000 workers. The people who are killing this country have been taken by the dark side folks. When your greed outweighs the logic to not destroy your fellow man or the enviornment in which you live then you've got to go and let a human being take the reins for a while and see if we can fix this freakin mess.

[poe]

31. Nonsense Mellencamp

There is no such thing as" human nature", not to mention the subtleties in a culture of interdependence and ritualistic renewal that are so far removed from any Western ideology that the mere concept of such a thing throws the average listener into a sea of confusion and when they emerge they spew forth the platitudes of the Western cant.

I pose this question to American taxpayers; why do you allow your taxpayer money to be used to cause death and distruction to millions of people around the world? Yet you do not say a thing when your government refuses to spend any taxpayers money to relieve the disastrous destruction of a natural disaster such as the Tsunami or the 100,000 dying in the Sudan of starvation and millions in other parts of the world?
To use and overuse colloquialism. What is wrong with this picture?

[JohnnyCougar]

35. My name has nothing to do with the singer/songwriter

There is no such thing as" human nature"

Could you explain this?

not to mention the subtleties in a culture of interdependence and ritualistic renewal that are so far removed from any Western ideology that the mere concept of such a thing throws the average listener into a sea of confusion and when they emerge they spew forth the platitudes of the Western cant.

I'm not the average listener. I'd be interested to hear more what you think of this.

I pose this question to American taxpayers; why do you allow your taxpayer money to be used to cause death and distruction to millions of people around the world? Yet you do not say a thing when your government refuses to spend any taxpayers money to relieve the disastrous destruction of a natural disaster such as the Tsunami or the 100,000 dying in the Sudan of starvation and millions in other parts of the world?

What does this have to do with the socialism debate? Do you really think we'd have more say in a socialist government about matters like this?

[K-W]

70. You seem to have completely missed the entire point of socialism.

"What does this have to do with the socialism debate? Do you really think we'd have more say in a socialist government about matters like this?"

Thats exactly what it means. It means that a government that serves the people deterimines where the societies resources are spent rather than a collection of individuals who have achieved power by proving adept at exploiting a chaotic economy or because somewhere in thier family tree someone was adept at exploiting a chaotic economy.

You are pitting socialism and democracy against each other when socialism, at least the form chavez advocates, requires a better democracy than we have today.

[JohnnyCougar]

78. But in socialism....

there's still no guarantee that the government won't be as corrupt as this one. You can still bribe government officials in socialism, you can still "do each other political favors" etc.

Stopping government cronyism will not be achieved by changing the form of government...it has to be prevented by a vigilant public. As soon as the public gets lulled into a false sense of security, whether it be by capitalism or socialism, corrupt governments can then take advantage of public apathy.

[rman]

63. Venezuela does have a democracy where people pay attention

one of the first social programs that Chavez started was to combat analphabetism, one of the first thing people learn to read is the Venezuelan constitution - poor Venezuelans (a majority of the population thanks to decades of capitalist rule) now know their constitition by heart.

[K-W]

68. I would rather have greedy men I can vote out controlling things

than greedy men who are accountable to no one but themselves.

Corporations are non-democratic institutions. Just because the power isnt in the government doesnt mean it cant be abused. We fought a revolution to get to vote on who controls our lives and now supposed supporters of liberty support the holding of massive amounts of power by unaccountable private individuals as a defense against tyranny.

Yes, a non democratic government with power is tyranny, but putting power in the hands of non-democratic organizations and people outside of the government rather than fixing the government so it is truely democratic is a band aid at best and gives us a whole new problem as we struggle with unaccountable organizations and people with power.

We will have freedom when we have a strong national government that respects civil rights and is accountable to ALL of the people. And this is exactly who you want in charge of an economy.

[laura888]

11. This Is Beautiful

Standing up to Goliath.

[WMliberal]

13. maybe we SHOULD let the amendment allowing foreign-born to run for prez!

Chavez 08!

[RockStar]

37. I will support a constitutional amendment only if Chavez Runs in 2008

[zmdem]

17. Chavez is anti-American, what else is new

Nice to see a socialist wrap himself in the cloak of Jesus Christ, just for laughs.

[bemildred]

19. "The U.S. people are our brothers" -- Hugo Chavez nt

[zmdem]

24. Stalin had brothers in the USA also

So did Hitler, so does Castro.

[bemildred]

71. Doesn't sound very anti-American, does it?

Not like "the Americans are Nazi swine" or that sort of thing.
And I can't think of a thing he's done to hurt me or anybody else
living here. To be sure he has a hard-on for the Government, but he
has a great deal of company there, and the Government has a hard-on
for him too, but the Government doesn't tell me what to think.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. you're anti-Chavez, so

what else is new?

[zmdem]

25. I'm pro-America, that's all (n/t)

[poe]

33. Here are a few reasons not to be pro America

From Wounded Knee to Afghanistan (and to Iraq)

 

Compiled by Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 1999. This guide does NOT include:

Demonstration duty by military police; Mobilizations of the National Guard; Offshore shows of naval strength; Reinforcements of embassy personnel; The use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the DEA); Military exercises; Non-combat mobilizations; The permanent stationing of armed forces; Covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role; The use of small hostage rescue units; Most uses of proxy troops; U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes; Foreign disaster assistance; Military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat; Civic action programs and many other military activities.

Among sources used, besides news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corps History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug. 1982), and Daniel Ellsberg in Protest & Survive. "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library ofCongress Congressional Research Service.

GUAM 1898(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.

MINNESOTA 1898(-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.

NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.

CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.

KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.

PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.

NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.

CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.

PHILIPPINES 1898-1910(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.

CUBA 1898-1902(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.

PUERTO RICO 1898(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.

GUAM 1898(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.

MINNESOTA 1898(-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.

NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.

SAMOA 1899(-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.

NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.

IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.

OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.

PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99.

HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.

DOMINICAN REP. 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.

KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.

CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.

NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.

HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua.

PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.

NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.

CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.

CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in Havanna.
HONDURAS 19l2 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.

NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.

MEXICO 19l3 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.

COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.

MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.

HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.

CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.

WORLD WAR I 19l7-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany

RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.

PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.

YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.

HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.

GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.

WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).

CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.

HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.

PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.

CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.

EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt.

WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.

WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear Fought Axis for 3 years; Over 200,000 civilian casualties in 1st nuclear strikes.

DETROIT 1943 Troops Army puts down Black rebellion.

IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan).

YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Naval Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.

URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.

GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.

CHINA 1948-49 Troops Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.

GERMANY 1948 Nuclear threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.

PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.

KOREA 1950-53 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases.

IRAN 1953 Command operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.

VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat Bombs offered to French to use against siege.

GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.

EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; marines evacuate foreigners.

LEBANON 1958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.

IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.

CHINA 1958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.

PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.

VIETNAM 1960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969.

CUBA 1961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.

GERMANY 1961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.

LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant. Over 30, 000 civilian casualties. US blocks UN war-crimes inquiry at the security council.

AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.

IRAQ 1998-2003 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors alleged Iraqi obstructions.

YUGOSLAVIA 1999. Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo.

YEMEN 2000 Naval Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole.

MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.

UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Response to hijacking attacks.

AFGHANISTAN 2001 Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden.

IRAQ 2003. Occupation with the pretext of existence of "mass destruction weapons". No mass destruction weapons found.

[zmdem]

38. Sorry, I'm a Democrat and an American

If being a patriotic American is troublesome to Democrats, then let the Democratic party die. I'm an American first, a Democrat second.

[not systems]

42. So you support all wars no matter what?

My country right or wrong?

How about my country when it's right and my
right to change it when it is wrong.

We have a checkered history and your view would have
put you in favor of many wrongs including slavery,
genocide and forced sterilization of the mentally handicapped.

America right or wrong?

No. I don't think so.

[zmdem]

46. Please don't straw man me

Yes, we do have a checkered history. So does every other country.

"forced sterilization of the mentally handicapped."

I don't recall ever saying anything about this. Why are you laying this at my feet ? Strawman ?

"So you support all wars no matter what?"

Again, your statement, not mine. Fighting strawmen is easy, as you pick your enemie's battle plan.

Let me give you an example of my opposition to America's wars: The War of 1812. A foolish thing.

[not systems]

67. That's funny coming from you "Stalin had brothers in the USA...

also So did Hitler, so does Castro."

You can dish it out but can't take it.

Straw man as I don't not as I do.

Funny.

[zmdem]

75. Tip of the hat, that's a fair response (n/t)

[cire4]

65. If you're an "American first," why are you flying the UK flag?

Sorry, I don't follow the logic in that one.

[RockStar]

30. Oh you mean like bush claims to talk to god..I mean satan

[zmdem]

40. Bush can talk to God or Satan or Judge Crater for all I care

Chavez is still no friend of America.

[bvar22]

49. Chavez IS an ENEMY of predatory capitalism,

If you equate America with predatory Capitalism, then you are correct.

I believe that America is capable of sooo much more than an economic and social system based on privilege and greed.

I LIKE Chavez!

[zmdem]

54. I said nothing about

predatory capitalism. Why do you bring it up in regards to me ?

I like Chavez too. He is a patriot. That doesn't mean that the interests of Venezula and the USA are the same.

[alexisfree]

32. ..... and the socilalist are "evil"

and according to you lets get the freedom on them? :eyes:

[zmdem]

43. Socialists are not evil

and as far as I know neither is Mr. Chavez. I disagree with socialism as a desirable political/economic system, although I do favour certain, controlled aspects of it, e.g., Social Security.

Chavez however is no friend of America. As every country does, I place our interests at the top of the heap. The Democratic party should not be the party of socialism, in its radical aspect. I am not a Henry Wallace Democrat. The function of our government is the safety, security, and prosperity of America and nothing else. That is the role of every government.

If the Chavez government in Venezula is acting in a manner detrimental to American interests, then I expect the American government to deal with that, not roll over on its back and play dead.

[Solon]

45. What have we done in the first place to make him a friend?

We tried to overthrow a democratic government in Venezuala, basically your saying that its my country right or wrong. Right here you said: "If the Chavez government in Venezula is acting in a manner detrimental to American interests, then I expect the American government to deal with that, not roll over on its back and play dead."

So basically, you support covert and overt efforts to dispose of unruly governments like Chavez's because they don't think of America first. What type of fascist shit is that? Did you support our efforts to overthrow him originally?

[zmdem]

47. Don't put words in my mouth

I expect Venezula to act in her own best interest, likewise America and every other country. I said nothing about covert operations, or overthrowing foreign governments.

[Solon]

48. Then how should the American government deal with...

Chavez? You're the one who said we are not to lie dead, your words not mine, I simply came to the logical conclusion as to what that meant. You have displayed nothing in this thread to make me believe you are nothing but a nationalist anyways. Someone who cannot or willnot separate the needs of the American people over the short term goals of our Corporations and Government, there is a wide gap between them. So disabuse me of the notion, and answer the question.

[zmdem]

50. I have no desire to disabuse you that I am an American

I am an American. This is a political debate, not a matter of logic. Logic deals with tautologies, politics with opinion and contingincies.

[Solon]

53. Well, at least we're getting somewhere...

but then again, you have avoided the question entirely, so I ask again, What is the US government supposed to do about Chavez? Its a simple question, not complicated at all, just want your opinion, you claimed I put words in your mouth, now it is on you as to whether those words are to be corrected or not. Claiming "I'm American" is not only a non answer, it means as much to me as if you said you were Ukrainian, it means nothing, you're still human, or is that second to you?

[zmdem]

56. When you put words in my mouth

it is not my obligation to respond. They are your words, not mine.

To address the issue, the USA government should try to work with Chavez in a diplomatic manner. Sometimes this will involve a carrot and stick approach. They wish to sell oil, we wish to buy oil. We have a common interest. The ongoing violence in Colombia is obviously important too.

Let me state that I do not support efforts to subvert the legitimate government of Venezula, even if that government is troublesome to us. Government is legimate to the extent that it has a popular basis. The USA should support legitimate goverments, even those whose policies are not exactly in line with our interests.

The Declaration of Independence applies to all people, not just Americans.

[Solon]

57. I agree with you to a certain extent...

and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. Won't happen again, at least I hope. However, I do think there is a disconnect here that we haven't overcome. For one, I don't think Chavez is Anti-American at all, at worst, I would label him Anti-Washington(Politicians not people), he has so much said that he doesn't wish ill will on the American People, and most of the world, except for Al Queda and their ilk, feel the same way. It is our government and its policies that he and many others oppose, and I support them because of that. Why? Because I know that our government isn't working for the best interests of the American People, plain and simple. He opposes our government and its policies for many of the same reasons I do. This is why I like him, he has actually stood up to our government, and has survived, amazingly enough.

It is a fact that the working class in this country, and the working class in Venezuela and other places, have more common goals than differences when it comes to economic policy. I agree wholeheartly with your last statement, because it is true. I also would further say that we as a nation should not make ourselves pursue those goals at the expense of others, outside and inside our borders. When I see war being declared on the working class worldwide, who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth when it comes to Chavez? He is on the front lines of those who bear the brunt of this huge war, but soon, much sooner than many think, we will be in the exact same boat here, economically. Is he the messiah or perfect, no of course not, but the point is, he is fighting the same enemy of our people, as they are of his. At what point do your loyalties lie when your own government would sell you out for Multinationals?

[zmdem]

61. Hi Solon

I have to admit that I really don't know much about Chavez. It would seem to me that you are most likely correct that he is not so much opposed to America as he is opposed our influence, (if I may use that gentle term), in S. America. The Monroe Doctrine has had an amazing life span.

As to the working classes in various countries, I agree with you, tho' probably not for the the same reasons. The middle class is the great guaranteer of political stability. Destroy the middle middle class and you destroy republican government. The bane of S. America is that there is no middle class. I fear for the same thing in America, that we could become a banana republic.

This is something that I think the Republicans ignore, to the detriment of our country, in the long run. I would like to see a revitalised Democratic party that would address this. There is nothing more important to the fate of our Republic. In order to do this however, the Democrats must recognize that we have selfish interests, as every country does.

Anyway, it's late and I need to go to bed. I'll look for your reply tomorrow evening.

Bye for now.

[RockStar]

66. zmdem Question for you

Hi zmdem in your arguement below you made some points that are rather confusing I will dispute in all capitals--

Let me state that I do not support efforts to subvert the legitimate government of Venezula, even if that government is troublesome to us.

HOW IS THE GOVERNEMENT TROUBLESOME FOR US. HAVE THEY THREATNED TO HARM US? HOW CAN A SOUTH AMERICAN GOVT BE A THREAT?


I have to admit that I really don't know much about Chavez. It would seem to me that you are most likely correct that he is not so much opposed to America as he is opposed our influence, (if I may use that gentle term), in S. America. The Monroe Doctrine has had an amazing life span.

IF YOU FINALLY ADMITTED THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHAVEZ WHY WHERE RAMBLING ON ABOUT HOW HIS GOVT IS A THREAT AND HOW YOUR AN AMERICAN ETC...WHY DO YOU RAMBLE ON A TOPIC THAT IS OBVIOUS YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT?

[RockStar]

72. Kick

[zmdem]

74. Hi RockStar

How is Venezula "troublesome" to us ?

Of course Venezula and Chavez pose no overt threat to American interests. They will neither invade or crash airplanes into NYC. A countries interests are more than such black/white issues. We have economic interests, we also have diplomatic interests in S. America. A government that opposes our interests, and would seek to convince other S. American countries to do the same is "troublesome". Nonetheless, there are shades of gray. That the Chavez government is troublesome doesn't mean that the level of troublesome rises to that of the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Nuance in foreign policy is not a bad thing.

As to my knowledge of Chavez, I did not say I know nothing. I said I didn't know much. There are few subjects on which I would say I am an expert, and policy regarding S. America is not one of them. Still, I do know something and am entitled to my views. On the otherhand, I do not expect the Sec. of State to be calling me with a job offer.

How many DUers do you think really have an in depth knowledge of these matters ?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. zmdem, ANOTHER question for you... what does "zm" in your name stands for?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[eridani]

59. Wonder when you will realize that

your elite American rulers regard you as only slightly less expendable than brown furriners? What will it take? Shipping the last job paying more thann $30K overseas?

Can't figure out why so many Americans think of 'their' interests as having something in common with the psychopaths who make most of the decisions that govern their lives. Ain't true. And nobody wins the race to the bottom except for those psychopaths.

[zmdem]

62. I wonder too

"brown furriners? "

I'm a bit on the conservative side, at least compared to the average DUer, still "brown furriners" is a bit odd - I'm not one to be too PC, but what do you mean by "brown furriners" ? In my younger days I heard words like "jigaboo", "burrhead", and others I'm sure you know. In my America all men are created equal, I believe that and agree with Jefferson in that regard.

Further, our rights derive from God, not men. Your "brown furriners?" share these rights equally with white men because they are also created by God, and He makes no mistakes.

Whatever problems the USA has vis a vis its government, they will be dealt with in the ordinary course.

[eridani]

64. You haven't noticed Shrubco's demonization of 'ragheads'?

100,000 of them are expendable in Iraq to have permanent military presence there. To the people who made that decision, you yourself are just about as expendable.

[not systems]

36. Better fit for Jesus than his enemies the...

plutocrats of the world.

They feed off the wealth and never spared a loaf or a fish for the poor.

What is funny is to see social Darwinists denounce evolution.

Now that is funny.

[Cha]

21. Who would have thought we would

be hanging on to every word of a South American President for hope of the future!?

[RockStar]

34. I know...Our future could well rest in the hands of a south amer leader

[Minstrel Boy]

26. "We must reclaim socialism"

"...we cannot resort to state capitalism, which would be the same perversion of the Soviet Union. We must reclaim socialism as a thesis, a project and a path, but a new type of socialism, a humanist one which puts humans, and not machines or the state ahead of everything."

Ah Hugo, ya give me hope in dark days.

[American Tragedy]

44. Pretty words. What exactly does it mean?

[eridani]

60. It means that the state shouldn't run everything top down

We've already had people who called that socialism, and it's a crappy idea.

[RockStar]

28. Long live Chavez...Yes all evil empires come to an end

[alexisfree]

29. this is beautiful!

"The U.S. people are our brothers"



....."One day the decay inside U.S. imperialism will end up toppling it, and the great people of Martin Luther King will be set free. The great people of the United States are our brothers, my salute to them.":cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :

[Stirk]

39. Did anyone catch the piece on Lou Dobbs about this?

It was absolutely shameless. Seriously- one of the worst cases of corporate propaganda I've ever seen.

They opened with this:

"Hugo Chavez, the first world leader to meet with Saddam Hussein after the first Gulf War (video of Chavez hugging Hussein)..."

The next sentence was about his close ties to Castro, and his "attacks on the United States". Venezuela's latest "attack on the US", according to this reporter, was their oil deal with China.

The gathering you've posted about was also mentioned, and described as an "extremist South American socialist" gathering.

I kid you not.

[AP]

51. MSM looking after the interests of the corporations.

Anyone hear ABC yesterday? They described that opinion about the gitmo detentions being unconstitutional as "a setback in the war against terror."

Lord.

Do NOT expect the MSM to say anything good about anything that's bad for business.

[bvar22]

52. Chavez is making American Plutocrats....

...very nervous.

The NERVE of that non-white. He actually believes that some of the profits from the Natural Resources of Venezuela should be used for Education and HealthCare for people who live in Venezuela!!!!

If something like that catches on in the US, what fun would it be to be RICH????

[Karenina]

76. Kick!

:kick:

[shadowknows69]

55. shrub probably sees how enamored we are of him as well

and thus we fuel his fire. maybe we should use reverse psychology on *


DOWN WITH CHAVEZ. DOWN WITH CHAVEZ. there now george will leave him alone.

[Geek_Girl]

73. I worry for this man's safety

I think he should tone it down for his sake and his country.

[sarcasmo]

79. Smartest Politician on the Planet today, IMHO of course.