MoveOn needs to get more gutsy...

[vicman]

Don't misunderstand me. The "let's-don't-fuck-Social-Security-like-we-did-Iraq" campaign and its ads are great and right on point, but they should not preface any of it by claiming Bush is "misleading" the public about Social Security. I mean, come on, folks, with Iraq and the freakin' WMD's, even though accurate information was out there, it was simply impossible to claim that Iraq didn't have some nasty shit lying around somewhere... But THIS shit? Social Security? The numbers are plainly out there for even dumbass Repugs to read - all over the place. Why can't we all all just call a spade a spade and declare that Bush is a LIAR? "Mislead" my ass. He's a f*ckin liar. A bare-ass, purple-ass baboon, as Will Burroughs might have put it. "Misleading" is a Karl Rove word. The man is a LIAR. A piece of shit LIAR! Why can't we just say that?

[physioex]

1. Let's hope the older folks are hip this time....

And they send a clear message to AARP.

[ClintonTyree]

7. AARP has as much as told them...................

to stick it up their ass. They don't want the neo-cons screwing around with SS. To my knowledge, there are VERY few "golden years" folks who support ANY attempt at changing SS in any way. The few that do want to, are of course rabid Repubs that have voted Pub all their lives and "by jinky aren't about to switch now".
The vast majority (I'd say 80%) want a hands off approach.
Of course they come from a day when people trusted government, the president would never lie to them and what the president wanted was best for the country.
They've never seen the likes of this current bunch of thieves in the Oval Office.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. More like 100%

At least here in NW Arkansas. The Arkansas Democrat/Gazette reported a couple weeks ago that Con. John Boozman, the only Republican in the Arkansas congressional delegation, has gotten a large number of letters about SS from constituents, and 100% of those who identified themselves as senior citizens were against any change. I got a letter from the Conman myself on this matter, and he said he would do nothing to change SS for those already retired, which is small comfort for someone like me who is not yet retired. But it does show that he's running scared-usually he writes and tells me how he totally disagrees with my viewpoint.

[thebigidea]

2. because everyone extends him the benefit of the doubt

"oh he isn't lying unless he KNOWS its a lie."

and since we can never know what the fuck that idiot is thinking, ergo, he can NEVER lie in the eyes of conventional wisdom and the press.

he miscalculates. he misspeaks.

and in the eyes of those frothing-at-the-mouth-radicals (sarcasm) at MoveOn, he MISLEADS.

but lie?

never!

why, that would be too harsh. if Daschle weren't crying somewhere in a broom closet, he'd come out and mumble about being "deeply troubled" or "very upset."

They didn't have trouble calling Clinton a rapist, did they.

(great to see a burroughs reference, the bush admin reminds me of his Roosevelt After Innaguaration routine.)

[clovis29]

18. I think that if they use the term "lie" it is actionable

Slander and/or Libel depending on medium.

So, sadly, we have to dance around the truth.

[thebigidea]

20. that can't possibly be true in the case of a public figure

maybe in the UK or something, but surely America is a country where a citizen can hold his head up high, call his President a pigfucker in some publication, and not be sued.

Has any President ever sued for libel/slander?

[clovis29]

22. good point n/t

[EFerrari]

3. Because that kind of language scares people stupid and then

they don't listen to you. So, introduce the softer term, get them interested and they will call him a liar on their own.

[thebigidea]

4. fear works. surely the past few years have proven that.

[EFerrari]

11. Well, no actually it doesn't help mentation.

Look how well the fearmongering shut down critical thinking? Maybe I was unclear. I meant, scared people don't listen or think well. They can be pushed around but they don't think.

[thebigidea]

12. so what? just as long as they're scared away from Bush.

fear gave him power, fear taketh it away.

they should have fearmongered like crazy: bush wants to take away your social security. bush wants to invade more countries. portray him as an unstable lunatic - the wrong man at the wrong time for the wrong job.

the whole "I'll do everything he does, but better!" tack seemed pretty ineffectual. They should have pulverized him under a blizzard of endless negative ads.

For all that talk about how Americans "hate negative ads," Bush running them for months on end didn't seem to hurt. Nobody in the mainstream media raised a voice of complaint about how they were too tough on Kerry or anything.

[EFerrari]

15. hmm. Then, what happened in Iowa? Real question. n/t

[thebigidea]

17. what the heck do the primaries have to do with this?

I'm talking about a massive barrage of negative ads attacking Bush during the general election campaign... it didn't matter who the candidate was.

Its too early in the morning to go into some Howard Dean sidetrack, though I'm sure you'll find plenty of people here to take you up on it.

But actually, now that you bring up Dean - all that talk about him being scary and unstable should've been magnified a thousand fold and pointed at Bush. Who's the bigger lunatic? A guy who yelled once or some freak charged by God himself to cleanse the Middle East?

[EFerrari]

19. Right, I was thinking about how Gephardt and Dean went somewhat

negative and then both tanked. Not about HD at all actually.

I see your point. From here it looks like the Dems were on a "you first" track. And while Bush is a nut, I don't think he's the biggest lunatic. The brainy lunatics scare me much more, Wolfowitz, Feith, Chertoff, Gonzales.

After 11/2, looks like we're going to see some spine and truthtelling -- the new Cabinet appointments are going to be worked by the Dems. You should enjoy those.

[vicman]

6. What softer term is there...

for a LIE?

"Mislead?" That doesn't work. The Repugs have been trained to ignore that word. What softer term can or should we use? If we don't stick by our guns and repeat the truth ad nauseum, we prove the Repugs point. We gotta carve out that line-in-the-sand. I'm tired of "reaching out" to humans who BELIEVE SHIT THAT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE!! If I don't look them in the eye and call a lie for what it is I am less than human. I'm an enabler. I WILL NOT compromise. If I send all dumbasses running screaming into the arms of Repug LIES then the Republic is over. It's done! Dumbasses CANNOT live in a democracy!

Oh, jeez...

I'm ready to die with my boots on. NO MORE MR. NICE GUY. I cannot respect your point of view if I lie about its validity. I have to speak my truth, just as hard and as bad as you..........

[EFerrari]

13. I understand. I've gone to the MoveOn forum and directly

addressed Wes and Joan, particularly after the last stolen election. For a while, it looked like I was the only one posting information on the election while everyone else was wringing their hands about "values".

[thebigidea]

14. they don't exactly welcome much input, do they.

for an organization that prides itself on all its grassroots this-and-that, they seem awfully top-down at times.

[EFerrari]

16. Yep. They sure are and that's a mistake. TrueMajority does

much better.

I helped with the West Coast release of the MO book, and then, tried to schedule more events because I could, had the audience and all that. They didn't know how to deal with it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. It seems that some of the forest creatures have had

enough....

[mopaul]

8. don't they impeach presidents who tell even one little lie?

or was i dreaming that?

[thebigidea]

9. well, we were allowed to call him a rapist, liar, and murderer

you see, people don't get upset when those strong words are used against Democrats.

Like the Republicans would ever get all self-conscious, agonized, and crippled by self-doubt. Like they would ever worry about coming off as "a bit strong."

Like we'd ever see an exchange like:

KARL ROVE:
Gee, maybe we shouldn't say that. That could turn off swing voters.

KAREN HUGHES:
You're right, we need to work hand in hand with those across the aisle... we shouldn't antagonize them.

They call us traitors, UnAmerican, Satanic, etc. Their Vice President tells one of our senior senators to go fuck himself on the floor of the Senate.

and we're squeamish about using the word lie?

Well, no wonder Dems are getting chewed up by this Bush machine...

[mopaul]

10. there's lies and there's DAMNABLE lies

lies that make hundreds of thousands die. same planet, different worlds.