If bush gave them the O.K., the cultists would turn on us

[mopaul]

They are primed and ready to obey their 'charismatic' leader on any level, and since torture and brute force are now acceptable, it would only take a couple sentences from the ape to set them against us, even unto mass violence.

Think I'm crazy here? Maybe I am.

[DemonFighterLives]

1. Listen to Savage nation for a minute if you can

The zombies are more than prepped for the event.

[Enraged_Ape]

7. They are a bunch of fucking pussies

Who talk a great game on right-wing talk radio.

When the Savage Weiner is done with them, it's back to Playstation, Cheetos, and beating off to the cover of Soldier of Fortune magazine.

I've never personally known a single hardcore right-winger who wasn't a miserable fucking coward. Not a single one. The reason they ARE that way is because they are scared to death.

[sally343434]

11. You're right about them being fearful

Fear is the common denominator with the right-wing. It's the underlying motivation for their belief system. They're terrified of other cultures, women, nature, sex, and life in general. Anything they don't understand terrifies them. Combine that with below-average intellect, and you've got your reason why churches fill up every week with people singing hymns to imaginary people floating in the sky.

[mopaul]

13. God fearing, and fear of everything else

even racism is based on fear more than anything else. Hitler feared the jews and feared anyone finding out he was half jewish. Lots of people died.

[Enraged_Ape]

20. EVERYTHING terrifies them

They are terrified that the blacks and Mexicans are going to take their jobs away. They are terrified that the lazy poor people are going to take money away from them in the form of welfare. But they never talk about who really IS taking their jobs away or shrinking their paychecks: the massive megacorporations that drive our nation. And they don't talk about that because they KNOW the megacorporations actually have power and they are REALLY TERRIFIED of them.

No, far better for right-wingers to target people that they see as vulnerable: pregnant teens, Blacks, Hispanics, the elderly, and the poor. It is the long-established Way of the Bully, AKA the Way of the Coward.

[Toots]

58. Scared people can be very dangerous though

I agree with you and the premise of this thread. They are primed and ready to attack and are being fed daily doses of "Liberals are Traitors" etc.

[shadowknows69]

90. soon after one of the suicides that was attributed to the election

someone posted on another board I visit. "one down 58,999,999 left". This guy would volunteer for the firing squads.

[tom_paine]

18. Yes but the history of Nazi Germany shows even cowards

under the right conditions, when teamed with other cowards and the Full Blessings of a Totalitarian State, will gleefully murder Enemeies of the State.

Unfortunately, although you are correct, I don;t think it matters.

Were not the KKK of the Deep South in the 1930s-1960s cowards? Of course they were? Did they kill, maim, and murder at will to THOUSANDS. perhaps MILLIONS before they were forecd to stop?

You are both right and wrong at the same time, I believe.

[Enraged_Ape]

26. I guess I took the long way to say these craven fuckers don't scare me.

You're probably right that some of these people could go way overboard, but I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of these nutjobs would rather spend their time cozied before their Nintendos than actually put their precious biscuit-like bodies in the slightest jeopardy.

If they choose to show up at my house at night, in force, wearing masks and carrying guns, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that. But I will gleefully call them sniveling cowards to their faces before they shoot me. Maybe I'll show up in their dreams later.

[DemonFighterLives]

21. You're probably right

Cheetos :7
I'm all for free speech, but that Savage thing really pushes the limits. My buddy tried to compare the right wing talkers with Al Franken and Big Ed. I remarked that the only difference was that the left had the truth and the righties were following lies.

[tabasco]

69. How true.

Dirty liberal Airborne Ranger here.

Bring 'em on!

[wrate]

91. "they are scared to death." BINGO! n/t

[KarenS]

2. You are NOT crazy,,,, I have been having the same thoughts.

:scared:

[burythehatchet]

14. he..he..don't be scared Karen

there might more than a few of us ready for that outcome.

[atreides1]

3. You Have A Good Point

As for myself, I've been stocking up on ammunition, and if they start something, some of them will be "raptured", as many as I can help.

[bryant69]

4. You are saying one speech and it's a blood bath?

I don't believe it. I suspect there would be a few that would do it--but probably not more than a few dozen. And most of those are already looking for reasons to attack.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[tom_paine]

22. Not one speech and one bloodbath-it will be the tail end of a long process

that is happening right now.

If you haven't read this already, please do read it.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Read Carl Sagan's "the Demon Haunted World" and read about the Centuries of European Witch mania and judicial murder.

Look at how the South of the 1880s-1960s terrorized and kept African-Americans down with, essentially the Full Blessing of The State

Not one speech and one bloodbath, but by the same process that it has ALWAYS occurred throughout history.

Evetually, things will reach a tipping point (as I have mentioned in other posts in this thread) where the group psychosis will permeate all, and where there will be no more consequences for certain aggressive actions (will it be directly violent like all the other times before, or something different--who can predict the details) against Enemies of the State.

Will ALL people start doing it? Of course not. History shows that is not necessary anyway. Only a determined and ruthless minority of Totalitarians and a National Citizenry bullied into apathetic fear.

Sopund familiar?

As I have said, all the precursors are there.

And you might want to be careful what you say after LIHOP #2 happens (and it's coming) or face the consequences.

After LIHOP #2, speaking against Folk and Fuhrer WILL have consequences, I think.

We will see. Trends are easy, deatils are hard.

[bryant69]

24. Well when is LIHOP coming?

Just out of curiousity?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[tom_paine]

37. I would guess before September of this year, but it is possible they

will hold off until as late as Sept. 2009

As I said, observing trends is easy. Predicting details is hard.

But do the math. They NEED a draft to further their Totalitarian Ambitions.

Bin Laden, up to and including his proBush Campaign Video released two days before the "election" (when the proBush spike he created wouldn't have time to subside as rationality reasserted over fear), has acted fully in the service of the Imperial Family by being a good Goldstein (as in the book 1984).

Even if he isn't directly employed by the CIA anymore (and he just might be) his actions are indistinguishable from if he was.

I don't know when it's coming.

But it's coming.

Haven't you noticed the Busheviks are the luckiest bastards in the world when it comes to ALWAYS getting what they need?

They needed Paul Wellstone to die. He died.

They needed a New Pearl Harbor to hasten the transformation. They got one.

And on and on and on.

Even if I believed nothing else untoward about Bush, Bin Laden and 9-11, the uncanny way they ALWAYS get what they need
would lead me to say:

They need another "terrorist attack", to implement a draft and enlarge the armed forces to the point where they could furthr their PNAC Plans. They will get one.

[hootinholler]

75. LIHOP????

Please expand, I didn't get the memo ;)

-Hoot

[tom_paine]

85. Let It Happen On Pupose (LIHOP)

referring to 9-11 and the attack that is coming that will herald Phase Two of our Totalitarian Transformation.

[hootinholler]

86. Thanks.

I wonder if there are writings similar to PNAC's from 1930 Germany?

Judging by thier recent call for a draft, I suspect the LIHOP will involve blaming IRAN, possibly precipitating approval for it.

I need a smart person to tell me how to stop it.

-Hoot

[tom_paine]

87. That would take one very damned smart person

That person ain't me.

In fact, I hate to say it, at this point I don't see any way to stop any of it.

Like Nazi Germany, this thing will have to burn itself out, but unliek Nazi Germany (and like Imperial Rome) no one is going to come in and liberate us.

To be honest, I am not sure I'd even want that.

I do believe you are correct, and given the preictability of Totalitarianism, your point about getting their draft AND their war with Iran seems spot on.

But stopping it? Even if you were in the Bush Secret Police, I am not sure you could stop it.

[mopaul]

31. all through history the oppressed have said, 'it can't happen here'

just before it happened.

[bryant69]

43. Yeah but a lot of paranoids have said "they are all out to get me"

right before nothing at all happened. So that arguments a wash.

[mopaul]

47. if i'm wrong, i'm glad

if i'm right, we're all fucked

[bryant69]

50. So why worry?

I mean I'm not saying don't be prepared. We should all be prepared for what comes (even beyond the depredations of the Bushs, we might face personal or natural disasters).

But is there anything we aren't doing that we could be doing to prepare for a future Kristallnacht?

Maybe we could all join revolutionary cells and reenact scenes from our favorite revolutionary movies/books/tv shows.

[tom_paine]

49. You are correct. It might be a wash, but what it REALLY says

is that sometimes it is imagined, sometimes it is real.

And it is impossible to tell because ALL are viewed as alarmists and conspriacy theorists...until it is too late.

There is nothing that I can tell to convince you that it is real...until experience itself shows you beyond the shadow of a doubt.

After which it is too late.

The age old conundrum which has profitied Tyrants since time began.

Read Camus' "Fourth Letter to a German Friend"

Remember the old saying "Princiipa obstis. Finem respice." (resist the begininngs. Foresee the ends.)

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

Remember, very similar smears were used on ciritcs back when Watergate was a "conspiracy theory".

[Sterling]

65. Look at the specifics.

Which statement applies to our current situation more? "Can't happen here" or paranoids thinking people are out to get them?

It's pretty clear to me. I would have never dreamed that what has happened in the US in the past 5 years was possible.

[bryant69]

66. I have looked at the specifics

That's the constant complaint of conspiracy theorists ("YOu never really looked at the evidence, you just dismissed it.") I've looked at the evidence for LIHOP and the evidence for MIHOP and and I'm unconvenced. Nor am I convinced that they have a long term plan to turn the United States into a fascist dictatorship. That's not because i am ignoring the evidence, that's because I've looked at the evidence and I've come to a different conclusion than you.

Oh, and that doesn't mean that I don't think the Bush Administration bears watching--on the contrary their plan to phase out Social Security, for example, is probably the most important issue of the day, and an area where, if we play our cards right, we can hand the Bush adminsitration and the Conservative movement a huge setback.

[No Exit]

5. Would there be money in it for * and for the Carlyle Group,

or for any of the corporations which kick back money to him in return for favors?

If not, I wouldn't worry about it. Money drives the * monster. Personal gain.

Just let those fat, pasty, trailer dwelling idiots TRY to "turn on us". It would be a pleasure to finally get rid of a few * voters--since we can't seem to convince them of the harm they are doing to this country.

In self-defense ONLY, of course.

[w4rma]

73. Money is only a means to an end. Power is the end. (nt)

[Ell09]

6. In Dubya's own words

"Bring Them On"

I would love to beat the crap out of a few (okay hundreds, thousands of them) mindless Bush supporters. The gap between the two sides is ever widening with the leaders on the Right pushing this country to the right, while the leaders on our side are gunning for the "middle ground". Maybe it's time for new, tougher leaders? We're going to get run over politically if we don't get tougher. As for physically, I certainly am not concerned about any pansy republican trying to beat me up.

[adigal]

8. They think we are panty waisted sissies

They are wrong

[Nordmadr]

16. Yes, they are certainly wrong about that...

and a good number of us are now HIGHLY motivated. It seems to me that we are almost at a tipping point in this country. Almost waiting for that last straw to start some serious social upheaval. I imagine it felt much the same before the Civil War. Liberals are fed up with not having any leadership, and are fed up with being bullied into this neo-con agenda. We have, for the most part, Neo-Con, Republican, and Republican Lite leaders. Those of us outside of that spectrum are just considered fringe element crazies, and that really burns my ass!

I think alot of people are just waiting for a leader to step up to the plate and say "We are fighting fucking mad and we are not going to take it anymore"! That is why there is so much support for someone like Dean. We want fighters not compromisers and appeasers. This country has become too big and divided. I almost wonder if it would be a better and more manageable place if the U.S. was divided into a few different countries.

Olaf

[BOSSHOG]

9. You are absolutely right MOPAUL, however

I see them as the cowardly lion. All huff and puff until YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Kinda like limbaugh and hannity, totally awesome badasses; behind their microphones. I would look forward to a confrontation between good and evil, once and for all.

[flordehinojos]

10. i think they already are turning against us, perhaps in a minor scale, and

to a lesser degree than what you portray ... but they are, bush is not containing them and yet ... he is not yet giving them the full throttle god ahead.

[Nimrod]

12. I'm crazier

I wouldn't be the tiniest bit surprised to see public executions of homosexuals and non-christians at some point within my lifetime.

[mordarlar]

15. Nope, not crazy. I have heard some mention Ann's suggestion of ball bats.

[Clark2008]

77. I'll see Ann's ball bats and raise it with my nightstick

Cowardly, incompetent, not to mention STUPID, man-bitch.

[tom_paine]

17. Not crazy at all. One more "terrorist attack" and it would get worse

It is impossible to predict the future, but yes, I think a combination of Law Enforcement (like the rest of the national institutitions) becoming Totalitarian One-Party Bushevikized, will eventually lead to a "Mississippi 1940s" situation where action taken against Enemies of the State will be acceptable in the same way that lynchings of African-Americans were at that time and place.

And all of us as the Uppity Negroes.

I am afraid I completely agree, and if it is impossible to predict the deatils, in what phases it will occur and in response to what events

(or to what level the Sovietization of Amerika is acting beneath the suracfe even now in TIA and TIPS, etc.)

the trends are quite clear, the smilarity of mindset compared to previous brutal dictatorships and their totalitarian followers (both Left and Right) is unmistakable.

Even the Orwellian Denial of Reality that most of the Good Germns assume or have imposed on them by default by a moribund and pathetic mouthpiece of a Sovietized Free Market Stalinist Media, is very close to the average Soviet or Nazi Citizen.

The only differences are the specifics (and the fact the Amerika still has far to go before the Final Transformation into BushPutinism) and the fact that we live in a less violent world so naturally the intial transformational phases are also less vioent than previous incarnations.

But yes, absolutely. All the precursors are there?

Will it happen? Almost certainly within the next century, as our Empire reprodcues the arrogant and shortsighted mistakes of ALL Empires.

Maybe a lot sooner.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

23. laugh it up funny man

you can't wait to torture us and you know it.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

27. not even you would be spared

and i know about christian fundamentalism, personally.

i don't wish to have a cohernet discussion with a ______.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

32. tell me everything will be just fine maj

and above all, tell yourself

[maj12]

39. Everything WILL be fine, Mo!

Really. No one is coming after you and they aren't going to force you to worship God or any such nonsense. In fact, in another 4 years or so the chances are that there will be another party in charge and the whining will shift to the right. Unless, of course, GWB adds an amendment to the Constitution to allow him to run again. ;)
When that happens - I will start to worry. Until then I would not worry about silly things like mass mobilization of the VRWC.

[mopaul]

40. I feel so much better, thanks

keep the blindfold on, it makes the execution less stressful.

[No Exit]

46. And no one is coming after you to force you to worship allah

or to force you to marry a person of your same gender, either. The hysteria I see is on the right--not on the left.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemonFighterLives]

28. I am soon to be witness to you being gone

Go back to lurking.

[tom_paine]

29. No no, a charismatic leader has NEVER used religion to do something

like THAT before.



And Christians follwoing a "Noble and Godly" anti-Christ figure have NEVER had their faith turned into Totalitarian Murder and Hate.



Isn't it funny how you chatacterize people fearing KKK-types and Freeper-types, who only a scant 40 years ago were gleefully lynching and murdering African-Americans (is it so wild to wonder if under the right circumstances you might revert to what you were doing not even a half-century ago?) as having "hatred for people who have differing opinions".

Why, that is a classic template of a Right-Wing distortional smear.

Surprise surprise.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

38. your corner is dark indeed

stay there

[tom_paine]

42. The usual Bait and Switch

You think I think Hitler is emblematic of Christians? Of course I don't think that. (but it makes a convenient straw man to divert and dfistort, Rush)

However Christians have, throughout history, shown themselves capable of atrocity when motivated by Belief, as recently as Northern Ireland

Of course you would place Hitler at the Far left of the Political Spectrum, against his own words, Mussolini's own words (was he also a Leftist, LOL), against his own self-description, those who lived there, and millions of pages of historic work?

Of coruse you would, and though it will be simply IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand, that Orwellian flip (is it that you cannot bear to think the Right-Wing is capable of evil) is in and of itself the symptom of your disease.

Soebody said "Those who can make you believe absurditites can make you commit attrocities."

and "to make and evil man do evil deeds requires little, to make a good man do evil deeds requires God."

But likely, any reason is watsed on you. Anyone who can think Hitler was a Socialst or Communist (in spite of the chosen name of his party, as if there was never such a thing as false advertising or false pretenses) given the history and the man's OWN WORDS is aleady belonging to the family of Authoritarian Bootlickers, without who's presence tyranny could not survive.

You project your hate and call it ours, like a Nazi kicking a Jew to death sceraming how the Jews are oppressing Germny (or the Liberals oppressing America, eh?).

And Tim McVeigh was also a Right-Winger, reader of the Extreme Rightist Manual TheTurner Diaries and that is the fact.

I am sorry reality doesn't conform to your idea of Right-Wing Moral Purity.

To say Hitler was Leftist is as audacious and insane as saying Stalin was a Right-Winger. The difference between Free People and Authoritarian Bootlickers like yourself is that I would have no problem in acknowledging BOTH sides, at the extreme, not only look a lot alike (more wedded in authoritarianism that economic philosphy) but are capable of equal evil.

Clearly from your words you are unable to do the same. As the true Authoritanrian Follower you are convinced of the Moral Purity and Godliness of your Leaders, convinced your side is incapable of evil and equally convinced that all evil comes from the Other.

A monster, really, and exactly the kind of malleable person to whom we are referring.

Perhaps THAT ultimately, is why you broke your silence.

Could it be that the last shreds of your conscience, trapped somewhere below layers of Bushevik Lies, Propaganda, and Orwellian Revsionist History cried out and you had to swiftly stifle it?

You people so often project yoursleves onto your enemies, that you had to speak and squelch the small still voice, and project it into screaming at this thread?

It doesn't matter what variety of Authoritarian Bootlicker you are in the end. All that matters is that you are.

Up is Down
Black is White
Cutting Trees reduces pollution
Slavery is Freedom
Ignorance is Strength
Hitler was a Leftist
Mussolini was a Leftist
Right-Wing Tyranny is an impossibility

[mopaul]

45. and ketchup is a vegetable

all this double speak upside down language really took off under saint ronny.

[Swamp Rat]

80. Thanks in part to the:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. Wow. All I have to say is WOW.

I really wish we could nominate posts instead of threads only.

[mopinko]

55. voltaire

nice rant t_p. the 'somebody who said-'

[Wind Dancer]

79. Great post, tom_paine! n/t

[frank frankly]

81. this post is educational. this post explains what is happening.

thanks for your words, tom. i've said it before, but your posts are the best i've ever read. i couldn't agree more, because i couldn't have said it better.

and thanks for asking the question, mopaul.

[Nordmadr]

53. I do not believe...

that you should be ridiculed for voicing a dissenting opinion. I respect you for it.

While I am not out stocking up on ammunition just yet, I AM keeping a VERY close watch on all the things that have been going on in our government since Bush was elected. It frightens me. Furthermore, I am not Christian (more pagan or animistic I guess), but do not believe most Christians are evil any more so than others. What frightens me is the way religous zeal, not just Christian, can make otherwise good people do VERY bad things.

Unfortunately, I also see on a regular basis how racism is still very much alive in this country. To this day it thrives and is the "norm" attitude in many places. Most of the openly racist people I encounter would probably also consider themselves Christians. If all non-Christians are hell-bound anyway, what is to keep them from expanding racism to other cultural identities and looking at us as the source of all problems. We don't believe as them, so that makes us potential targets. My experience shows me that Christianity as practiced today is far more exclusive than inclusive, and if Jesus is your saviour, that seems a bit retarded to me.

Olaf

[BOSSHOG]

34. As disturbed as the Jews were in Germany in the 30's,

as the Negroes were in Mississippi in the 50's and 60's and dare I say today; as any homosexual is today as a group of citizens wants to use the Constitution as a weapon against them. Have a listen to American Family Radio and then decide which segment of the population is disturbed.

[No Exit]

41. Wow...

for a moment I thought I was on libertypost instead of Democratic Underground. But, nope, I checked, and this is Democratic Underground.

What "epitaph" would you like on your imaginary "tombstone"? I vote for: "Fools rush in where a**holes fear to tread."

[nodictators]

33. FDR: "We have nothing to fear, except fear itself"

Cowards die a thousand times, Brave people but once!

[bo44]

35. You are correct

Freepers are like gang banger wannabes. They will do anything to be down with the set.

[leftofthedial]

48. nope, not crazy

the neocon death cult has been priming that hate pump for years

[Brewman_Jax]

51. No doubt....

they'd love to bash in our collective skulls, if they could get away with it. But like most here have said, thinking and doing are two different things, and freepers aren't big on either one.

An example: All of the freepers and semi-freepers I know have never/would never serve in the military. All of the liberal and progressives I know have (self included).

[MadHound]

52. Divide and conquer people, divide and conquer, LOL

And thus all the sheeple in this land are ruled.

Don't fall for this BS folks. Yes, there are probably somewhere between 100,000-1,000,000 people who would fall into the category that you outline, violent, vengeful, ready to start killing at the drop of a hat. But the overwhelming number of people in this country, while some may be delusional, brainwashed, etc. are not locked, loaded and ready for war.

Most are simply people like you and I, working stiffs, trying to get by, raise their families, keep their heads above water, nice to their neighbors, and peaceful. The only difference is that they've come to believe the RW bullshit that has been spewed for the past twenty years. The great wave of media conglomeration has made it extrememly difficult for people to find out what is truly happening in America(and we can thank Clinton for helping that along). Most folks don't have either the time or resources to find out. Less than half the people in this country have access to a computer connected to the 'Net. Most families are dual income, and are thus extremely short on time, what with work, transporting children, trying to spend some time with family and friends. At the end of the day, these people don't have the time, nor the energy to do anymore digging for the truth than switching on the TV or reading the paper. And we all know how fair and balanced the MSM is:eyes:

Thus, we are faced with the human equivalent of GIGO. These people are being fed garbage, and thus are spewing out garbage. But if you feed these folks the truth, it starts to change them. Living in a very red county in a red state, I've had many opportunities to confront this phenomenon. I talk with my friends and neighbors, over the fence, in the corral, out on the deck. And when they start spitting out the latest RW talking points, I counter with the truth. And guess what, they listen. People inherently yearn for the truth, yet in today's modern media, they're being fed junk food, tasty, filling, but not really good for you. If you offer them an alternative that is healthier for them, they prefer it every single time. And it works, that is the funny thing about the truth, it works quite well. People change their minds, and change their hearts. In the year and a half that I've been out in the country, I've got every single one of my neighbors to turn on Bush and his war of empire, including the fundementalists living down the road, and my gun nut/militia man next door. All by spreading the truth.

These people aren't dumb folks, just misinformed. If you feed them the truth, all but the most delusional will change their mind. But it takes getting to know them, developing a relationship, not speaking down to them, or treating them like retarded stepchildren. They are simply people, like you and I, so talk to them like you would anyone else. And in such a relationship, you will be suprised at what you recieve, and learn, in return.

But to continue to be standoffish, insulting, and unwilling to do any reaching out is simply playing into the hands of the power elite in this country, and driving the wedge deeper. Those in the uber class are counting on this strategy of division to keep them in power, and have throughout our history. Keep the people who have the most in common with each other artificially divided, and at each other's throats allows the power elite to continue it's corrupt rule, and ruination of this country. Who do you have the most in common with, John Kerry or the Rush listener in the next cubicle? Who's mind can you change most easily? Liberals like to boast how smart we are, yet here we are, being bamboozled and fooled, just like the right wingers. How bright is that.

So rather than stocking up for a civil war, and playing into the hands of the power elite, reach out to your conservative neighbor or co-worker. Get to know them, feed them the truth, and help make this country a better place for all. Otherwise we, as a divided nation, are going to fall victims to the most sinister plans of the power elite. It is that simple.

[FlaGranny]

56. I feel you are a bit

naive. Yes, most people are exactly as you describe. It doesn't take a majority of evil folks to perpetrate a Hitler-type disaster. Most Germans in the 1930s were just like most Americans right now, family people with kids and jobs and just wanting to live their lives and be left alone. The 100,000 to 1 million you speak of would be as formidable and effective as the German SS, if felt they had free reign. The seeds have always been here (as they are in every country) and they are now being sown. If * sent out a call to his flock, they would respond to lead the next "crusade" and/or "inquisition." There is no doubt in my mind and it scares me. There is no more dangerous group of people than those who would give God-like status to a ruthless political leader.

[MadHound]

64. So rather than try and correct the problem,

You would rather sow the seeds of hysteria and division even wider, playing straight into the hands of the power elite? And you call me naive. You honestly think that 1,000,000 people, when called upon by Bushco to go kill, would stand up to the over fifty million people on our side? Hello, I think that they would be a little outnumbered there friend. Even if you knock that number by seventy five percent due to the folks who are physically unable, or morally unwilling, we would still outnumber those folks twelve to one! And that is only going by the voting numbers. Most of the majority of people who don't vote are liberals also, and they too would come swarming to our side in their millions.

Sorry friend, I don't buy your spin. I think that it is attitudes like this one are hurting our country, and ultimately bringing about that which we most fear, totalitarian rule. Divide and conquer has long been the most used play in the power elite's book, and they're using it again. If you knowingly play into their hands by refusing to interact with your conservative friends, family and neighbors, then your actions contribute to this breakdown that our society is seeing. And this sort of division is exactly what is used to keep everybody under the thumb of the powerful.

Look at the issue of race. In Bacon's rebellion, 1676, we had whites and blacks, both working as slaves, join up together to throw the bums out. While this rebellion was put down, it scared the shit out of those who walked in the corridors of power. It was then that a policy was enacted to systematically turn the white race against the black race in this country, to keep the two artificial factions of the underclass in the US divided and at each other's throats. Gee, that worked for three hundred years, and it is still an effective control mechanism today. But since the fifties, it has become less effective with each passing decade. The power elite saw that thirty years ago, so they decided they needed a new control mechanism, and thus the issue of religion came into play, a move whose first fruitation we're seeing today.

But rather than buy into this artificial division that has been set before us, the best method for thwarting this is to talk with these people, join with them, show them that they have more in common cause with us than with those who feed them bullshit and propaganda. That is a task that has to be done on a small group, or one-on-one level. Word of mouth has always been the best way to pass such knowledge along, for the listener has more trust in those who are their peers rather than those who speak down to them.

Will it take time, yes, there is no quick fix for a mess like this. And it will take effort too. But it is the ONLY way in which we can extract ourselves, to pull back from the brink. Playing this game of sniping at each other only pushes us closer to disaster, and plays into the hands of the power elite.

If you want some more prove of this, go hang out at Free Republic for awhile. Look for posts concerning issues such as the War on Drugs, outsourcing or the Patriot Act, or even startingly enough the Iraq War. On such issues you will find many, and depending on the issue, most of the posters agree with your own POV. Those on the right for the most part aren't raving lunatics baying at the moon. They are like you and I overworked, overstressed, worried about where this country is headed, and wondering how to stop this country from going over the edge. Yes, they have their crackpots and keyboard warriors, just as we do, but for the most part these people are willing to listen and learn. It is up to us to start providing the lessons, and that means we have to overcome our own prejudices in this regard, and start to get to know our RW neighbors.

Otherwise, yes, this country is doomed.

[one_true_leroy]

67. MadHound, I am truly in awe....

Excellent couple of posts. Very well spoken...

And you too, Tom Paine. Though our conclusions differ on this matter, I've always admired your posting style and eloquence.

I think this is an interesting topic because there are fears, and it is getting difficult to divide rational suspicion from paranoia.

[MadHound]

68. Thank you, I'm just calling it as I see it

And sad to say, I'm seeing an increasingly divided society, which is exactly what the rich and powerful want in this country. They live in fear of all of the underclass joining together, for they realize that if this happened, there would be such an accounting as would make the French Revolution look like the Teddy Bear Picinic.

[one_true_leroy]

71. very true...

Howard Zinn opened my eyes to history as a class struggle, and I think it becomes more and more polarized as the haves suck more away from the have-nots. With the everyday (every spare moment, in some homes) pervasiveness of TV, it's become laughably easy to create the divisions... every time one of them smug bastards starts spouting 'them liberals/ us folks' lines, it makes me ill. C'mon, Bill O'Reilly a man of the people? GWB, a common folk?! What better way to have people act against their own self-interests than to have every stuffed shirt pundit feed out horsecrap daily about fighting for the common man by taking aways their Social Security or whatever else they may have that keeps them from realizing their dreams of being a stuffed shirt pundit?

[MadHound]

72. Hey, if you liked Zinn

Another eye opening book is Kevin Phillip's "Wealth and Democracy". I think that book and Zinn's "Peoples' History of the US" should be required reading in high schools and colleges throughout the country. Doubt that such a thing would happen, but hey, I can dream.

[Occulus]

88. You know, though, MadHound, as a gay man I HAVE TO assume this.

I have to assume I have a target on my back everywhere I go, particularly as I live in a state which just passed an anti-gay marriage amendment.

I'm not welcome. Period. Here, or anywhere. I have to believe the absolute worst, and behave as if it's true; my life depends on it now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Historical precedent: The Red Guards

They were always a minority of a minority (the youth of China), but they terrorized a nation for two or three years, because sad to say, most people are afraid to fight back.

I was reminded of this again the other night when watching the film The Magdalene Sisters on cable. (For those who don't know, it's about "wayward" girls and women in Ireland being forced to work as de facto slave laborers in convents.) Clearly, the slave laborers outnumbered the nuns who supervised them, and yet dozens would stand and watch as a nun beat one of the other workers. They would strip naked and stand in a line as one of the nuns made leering comments about their bodies. Individuals escaped during the course of the film, but by cooperating, they could have overpowered all the nuns, escaped, and exposed conditions within the convents.

Similarly, a dozen or so Red Guards could come into a school or factory where there were hundreds of people and force them to change their procedures and to denounce anyone who resisted. It was two or three years before some factory workers fought back, and soon after that first sign of resistance, Mao reigned in the Red Guards.

Also, remember what happened in the early days of the Nazi era, when the Nazis called for a boycott of Jewish-owned businesses and posted guards outside of such stores. Only a few people, among them Dietrich Bonhoeffer's mother--I believe Dietrich himself was in the States at the time--defied the ban. Nothing bad happened to the people who actually entered Jewish-owned businesses that day, but seeing the success of this trial balloon, the Nazis were emboldened to move on to worse action.

I iknow that any freepers on the rampage would be a minority of the population. But how many would resist them?

[one_true_leroy]

61. Tip of the hat to you....

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I disagree with the notions of emerging Nazi-like elements. I believe that the overwhelming majority of people are as you described... work for wages, not much wiggle room, but very decent at heart. While there certainly is a sizable lunatic element, these are by no means the majority, and I feel that most Americans, REGARDLESS of persuasion, would oppose any violent purging. Most are apathetic at best in regards to politics, lulled as they are by MSM and megacorps. Truth is a powerful mind-altering experience for them, and I think any attempt to reach with dialog (desperately lacking in today's milieu) is often appreciated. Unfortunately, with the decline of front porches (drive through any subdivision, and notice the deck is in the back, while the front has a stoop), dialog has been replaced by mutual suspicion and paranoia. Just as I firmly believe that liberals (myself included) ARE NOT going to eat aborted fetuses, give away tax money to crack addicted homosexual church-burning minorities, lock up good Christians in solar powered straw-bale jails, force feeding them wheat grass smoothies, remove their children into state-sponsored schools teaching communist dogma, and burn all their guns in eco-friendly electrical generators, I also don't believe the zombies are going to wake from their stupor after some coded speech and drive us from our homes with pitchforks and torches to stakes, gallows, and pyres. Paranoia is the most destructive element on BOTH sides of the political spectrum, and is what TRULY divides this country.

[unpossibles]

62. great post.

I do not think anything is wrong with being ready in case things go downhill fast, but I strongly agree that most are just ill informed.

That said, however, it does not take much to get the ill informed to become a mob - all you have to do is convince them that we are the enemy. After years of conditioning for a state of perpetual fear, many would believe it.

I do agree however, that our best chance for now is to try to spread awareness - try to gently teach and inform, encourage them to seek our more info on their own, and lead by example. Shake up their beliefs and encourage them but not too harshly or you will play into the hands of their leaders.

[bobthedrummer]

57. No, mopaul, you aren't nuts the extreme RW fascists think they're ready.

But they are wrong about that.

[Minstrel Boy]

59. "mopaul is unmutual"

I liked it better when The Prisoner was just a TV show. (Or was it ever?)

[Toucano]

60. What do you mean "if"?

;)

[lectrobyte]

63. I don't think you're crazy, but I think we'd ease into it. Look at

German history, it was a more gradual process, someone here used the analogy of the frog in the pot over on the stove. As long as the heat is turned up gradually...

That aside, it may be beneficial to look at this country in the 1950's and McCarthyism. Got to hope we can turn it around like they did then.

[gorbal]

70. Your not crazy

There are areas where things like that may happen. They would have to SEEM like normal, good things to do, but Bush has the press to help him make everything look Kosher and right.

In fact, I think this is already happening in many quiet, unseen way. Do you remember how many people voted "Yes" about registering Muslim Americans?

[vetwife]

74. There are many denominations of christians and

christians as a whole with a broadstroke would not fall into a category. I don't believe Christians would take up arms against people because someone said to. Me thinks that a true christian would be right the oppposite. A true christian believe in Non Violence, so why would christians start a war on non christians?
Just look at MLK and the argument does not hold water.

I do believe there are a lot of hippocrites but to broadstroke the faith of Christianity is just waaay too broad. this side is not supposed to do that are they? That is like saying Johnny has red hair ...Johnny killed a cat. All red haired boys kill cats. IMO.

[ComerPerro]

76. in a heartbeat

[MountainLaurel]

78. They do already on a micro level

A friend's father was a new superintendent in a VA school district where kids left school during the middle of the day to go to a church for basically what would be known as Sunday school. When he rightly tried to stop the practice, saying that this sort of thing belonged after the school day was over, his family got death threats, he was assaulted by a local minister in a Burger King parking lot, and his kids' friends would no longer speak to them.

Or think of all the areas where gay-bashing is considered a fun Saturday night.

[Lerkfish]

82. No, I think you're a prophet.

[chrisbur]

84. I don't know...

I think the media has really dumbed things down. They want everything black and white. They have amplified a minority into seeming more powerful than they really are. Things in my opinion are really more gray than black and white.

For instance: My business partner and I(we frame houses) have worked together for about 10 years. Though we won't admit it we are probably best friends. For ten years we have argued politics, he being the arch conservative(counter-intuitively not religious at all) and I being the ultra liberal. He really looks at his right wing loyalty as his "duty" to his father or some crap but I think I've made a huge dent in his ideology over the years. He has no real hard facts to base his arguments on because he is culturally and politically ignorant. I should add scientifically too. There is more than one type of intelligence. Physically and spatially the guy's a genius but that is a failing of our education system. Which is another story.

Most of our small town is conservative too, but again we all know and watch out for each other. I and my family are looked upon as being somewhat "bohemian" or something. My wife is the "hippie" art teacher at the center school, we have liberal bumper stickers, we won't recite the pledge of allegiance etc... The point is, it's gonna take a lot more 911's and time before these people would harm us.

I should tell you that we live in northwestern rural Connecticut. A firmly blue state but Litchfield County is the reddest county in the state. These people are fiscal conservatives (who have swallowed a line of bull) but probably less socially conservative than they think.
Point being that the "neo-cons" and the southern evangelicals are going, and will continue to go too far for my neighbors tastes. I am confident in that. Now if we could only be sure about the voting.

[info being]

89. He doesn't want that war

That would mean guerilla war at home -- unwinnable for the establishment and terrible for business.

[neebob]

92. Oh, please.

Assert themselves, maybe - because a lot of them seem to feel persecuted, for some reason - but attack? Come on. Things will have to get a hell of a lot worse to put me in fear of being attacked by wingnuts.