Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

We are all complicit in the crimes of America: It's TAXES that do it.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:43 PM
Original message
We are all complicit in the crimes of America: It's TAXES that do it.
That includes:

Natural Born Citizens
Legal/Illegal Aliens
Temporary Residents
Bush Supporters
Kerry Supporters
USCPA (Communist Party) Members
Even Foreign Tourists

ANYONE WHO PAID ONE SINGLE PENNY OF TAX IS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THIS GOVERNMENT. I would even include ANYONE who
purchases a product made in or that profits in this country, if you want to be picky.

We are ALL members of the "Buy a Bullet for Bush" Campaign of World Wide Agression and Homespun Theft. If you support it with TAX, no matter WHAT you
say, you're complicit.

YES, that includes me. That's one of the biggest reasons that I'm leaving.

Silence implies approval, and if you paid your taxes and aren't on your way to jail, then you're part of the problem.

Period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
12345 Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. if you don't pay your taxes, they take it.
They garner your wages.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. they put the nazis down over 50 years ago
and people still associate the german people with that criminal regime.

guess who is going to carry the stigma for the next 50?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. What...EVER.
Just because you have the option to leave doesn't mean that everyone else has that ability.

Go ahead and thumb your noses at those of us who are going to try to change things. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm not thumbing my nose.
I've been alive 52 years and spent 13 of it in the US Navy. That makes me pretty damn complicit from Vietnam to now. I've just decided I can't support it anymore. In any way, shape or form. AND I can't go to jail. So I'm left with "voting with my feet."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why stop there....
Anyone using dollars, anyone doing trade with the US even indirectly.

Shit the whole world can fit under the collective guilt unbrella.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickofTime Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No Choice, then No Guilt!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. There's a choice
Reduce your taxable income below the withholding threshold, and voila! No taxes. There are a couple of ways to do that, either by taking less money for one's labor or by donating enough income every year to reduce one's tax liability to zero.

I'm working on the second option myself, giving away more than 40 cents of every dollar (pre-tax) I earned in 2003. I haven't figured it out for 2004 yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. No one is innocent.
Everyone enables the system and many benefit from it. Nevertheless, this is a general statement and supposing that individual working stiffs are somehow as guilty as those who actually direct the system is a bit of a stretch.

What concerns me is not that people refuse to be martyrs to the cause or live like monks, but that people can easily change things at the ballot box and don't. Further, they continually support the enemy at the grocery store, gas pump etc. Why buy a big truck when you can buy a Honda Civic? Why go to a chain restaurant when you can go to a local place? Why by a new house on previous farm land made by out-of-town non-union labor when you can get an old one in an established neighborhood? Why drive if you can walk? Why invest in destructive assets when green funds are available?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Now you've nailed what I meant exactly.
Obviously, Himmler is more culpable than a Private in the Wehrmacht, but the point is to find a way OUT of the Wehrmacht altogether.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Welcome to DU
and, Great Point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. Being taxed is not the problem.
Not having control over how it is spent is.

We should be voting on pie charts that show how we want our tax money to be spent. Too much is spent on the military, and on corporate welfare, and too little on social programs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Actually we spend more on social per capita than other countries....
and get less services for it.

We are a very inefficient capitalistic system in terms of social programs. This is one reason the RW has been effective in saying that we should cut down on these programs. We all should conceive of a way to make them more effective.

But the real point is the taking away of the progressive nature of the tax system, means in the end....THE MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASSES BEAR AN UNFAIR BURDEN.

Why the people haven't figured this one out yet is beyond me. Perhaps because it is a socio-economic-political-power equation that is hard to understand. Sending money to the top, stratifying the public, causes the top to find EXTRA ways to screw us....not help us.

Trickle down not only didn't trickle down....it freeking backfired bigtime into world class level high stakes poker game playing, those with the bigger piece of the pie GAMBLING away our country's future, not investing in it.

The FREEKING THEORY THAT RICH PEOPLE KNOW THE BEST HOW TO USE YOUR MONEY IS THE MOST FLAWED THEORY OF ALL TIME. THEY ARE RIGHT NOW GAMBLING IT AND YOUR FUTURE AWAY.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. I think it is similar to the "Patty Hearst Syndrome"
where the captives eventually come to love the terrorists who dominate them.

I wonder how many people really do support the rodents tax cuts. This issue never did boil its way to the top during the last election. "Moral hypocrisy" in the form of "save the married", "save the Iraqi's", and "save the unborn" (by malnourishing impoverished mothers BTW) were the only songs sung by the MSM. And, why not? A substantial amount of tax money is being funneled into the members of the choir through Faith Based Initiatives.

I feel the Conservatives believe that they should bear no social responsibilities or liability. Out-scoursing the social welfare system into the hands of fundamentalist evangelicals is only the beginning. Sooner or later, this trend will be reversed, and we will be left with NO social welfare system, and the Democrats will face the holy wrath of the faithful while receiving the secular blame for "destroying" the social welfare net.

I drew a cartoon during the early 90's that circulated around the net. It featured Santa reading the Wall Street Journal while sitting on a chimney with his trousers at his ankles. It was titled "Trickle Down Economics" and later "Merry Christmas, your bonus is on the way." This is the only way the system puts a chicken in our pot. It is after the wealthy have digested it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. Your heart is in the right place.....
The average person doesn't realize corporate scum bags have carefully taken control of our taxes and made them less progressive, so they can earn greater profits.

What I come away with from this post is an important bottom line....
If you don't understand how you're being taxed.....you'll lose your government.

The tax structure is entirely key to what kind of government we have.
The tax structure today is inextricably linked to the fact that we have scum bag businessmen in power today.

Closer attention to the tax issue....and we may not have had this evolution toward whole scale robbery of our middle and lower classes.

As you know, it began with Reagan. My taxes didn't go down during the Reagan years. They went up because of progressively cutting out tax deductions for loans. THEN...as a result of the Reagan years of spending and tax breaks, I paid AN ADDITIONAL $25,000 over 10 years on interest payments on the national debt alone (I have previously posted on this calculation). How many people even realize they paid a lot on those interest payments during the 90s?

The convential wisdom that taxes were high during the Clinton years and that as a result you and I suffered is another grand RW brainwashing achievement. The middle class made its only gains during a short period in the Clinton years (since 1980).

So the RW scum bags have manipulated the argument that taxes are universally bad, when in fact it's good financial management that makes the difference to you and me.

Fast forward to today. Our government is financially out of control. Taxes paid today are more mismanaged than any other time in US history. Our taxes will NEVER go down again in the forseeable future. The breaks given to the upper eschelon and spending + war = HIGHER taxes for the middle and lower class well into the future.

The bottom line for all of this American afflication of not being able to understand how its government uses taxes (exactly counter to what any ditto head believes).....is that under RW government, the middle and low will pay more, and the rich will profit to the point that they can treat workers as "rentals"....mere entities that exist only to consume.

So yes, if you go to another country, you will be paying into a government that is NOT supporting with its tax structure an ultra rich upper class that now has assets in excess of 50 Trillion dollars. Your tax dollar will also be much more EFFICIENTLY used to provide you services. If you stay in America, your hard earned dollars will be taxed in such an unbalanced way that it directly supports a power class that will progressively take benefits away from you...even your job (now that they can go anywhere in the world to get cheaper labor).

The way your taxes are currently being used is directly fueling a polarized 2 class system, just as Marx predicted....just a bit later than he expected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. And just as Marx predicted, we are headed for the Big Blender.
Set on "Frappe".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. well with my huge income in the high four figures
Excuse me if your rationalizations for evading your taxes do not strike me quite right.

I would love to be in a position where I owed taxes other than Social Security tax, which is not a part of the problem but is an important safety net for our disabled and our elders.

Telling people not to pay taxes owed is a great way to put them in the wrong and discredit them when they try to act politically, since it just makes them look like common criminals out for the buck. Why don't we leave that sort of thing to the other side?

You still owe federal U.S. taxes wherever you live in the world. I have relatives who have been expats for over a decade, and yes they vote and yes they pay their taxes.

Becoming a tax cheat and a felon is not the path to power...or even to being taken very seriously by people who do pay their taxes.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. for the record: I DID NOT tell anyone to avoid taxes.
I SAID I was LEAVING for Canada so I would not be supporting Bush et al via my taxes.

Once I'm gone, I don't care if I vote in these fake elections ever again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Not true
Though you might have to pay american tax from anywhre in the world,
your deduction of 70K pretty much means you pay no tax in the US, though
you are obliged to file.... but that can be delayeed until you return
to the US... No need to file whilst criminals are in office wiping
their asses with the constituion.

A felon is in the white house. We are citizens, last time i checkec,
how did you get THAT backwards. The path to power is to realize that
by dissening, we ARE that power, whether it be by tax, not "consuming",
demonstrating, or other means to oppose tyranny. I don't buy your
shallow moralism about taxes at all... nor did our nation's founders.

Back once in a boston harbour, You sound like someone who'd be out
calling out the police as those damn felon's have dumped good tea in
to the harbour.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. taxes also pay for the (few) good things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poe Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. More on how to resist war taxes- Great Post
I pose this question to American taxpayers; why do you allow your taxpayer money to be used to cause death and distruction to millions of people around the world? Yet you do not say a thing when your government refuses to spend any taxpayers money to relieve the disastrous destruction of a natural disaster such as the Tsunami or the 100,000 dying in the Sudan of starvation and millions in other parts of the world?
To use and overuse colloquialism. What is wrong with this picture?
Summarized below are a few war tax resistance methods. Detailed descriptions can be found in WRL’s War Tax Resistance: A Guide to Withholding Your Support from the Military and through war tax counselors. Contact the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee (NWTRCC) for counselors in your area. The probability of collection or prosecution varies among the methods; all — except #4 — are illegal. Serious consideration must be given before embarking on these types of resistance.

1) File and refuse to pay your taxes. This involves filling out an IRS income tax return (e.g., Form 1040) and refusing to pay either a token amount of your taxes (e.g., $1, $10, $100), some “military” portion (approximately 1% for nuclear warheads, 25% for current military spending, 50% for current and past military spending combined — see WRL’s pie chart for the latest percentages), or the total amount (since a portion of whatever is paid goes largely to the military). Include a letter of explanation with the return.

2) File a blank IRS 1040 income tax return with a note of explanation.

3) Don’t file any Federal income tax returns.

4) Earn less than the taxable income. However, it is important to organize and speak out on war tax resistance in order to publicize why you have choosen to keep your income low. Also, write letters to the IRS, newspapers, politicians, friends, and relatives.Consequences of War Tax Resistance

irect action for peace often entails exposure to unpredictable risks. War tax resistance is no exception. Though getting a notice from the IRS is very likely, jail is virtually unknown for war tax resisters.

IRS Notices and Fines
Those who file but refuse to pay will probably get several tax due notices, adding on civil penalties in the 5 to 25% range, plus compound interest at a rate around 10%. If your resistance is token (e.g., say $1), the interest and penalties will not amount to very much even after several years.
          Nonfilers may go undetected, but if the IRS catches up with them, they may find stiffer penalties imposed, with no statute of limitations. The statute of limitations for filers is 10 years beyond the date of assessment (which is often a few months after filing). A false or inflated W-4 form, or a return claiming an unallowable deduction or credit affecting the calculation of tax due, may lead to an additional $500 penalty.
          The IRS considers their notices and threatening letters their most effective tax collection tool. In many instances, they do proceed beyond the threats.

Audits
The IRS has three years from the date of filing to audit a return. Generally, unless you claim questionable deductions on your tax returns, your chances of being audited are no more likely than most tax filers. However, many war tax resisters consider audits an opportunity to explain to the IRS their reasons for resisting. Resisters who don’t file are not likely to be audited. However, there is no statute of limitation for non-filers.Levies and Property Seizures
Once the IRS “assesses” a specific amount for a given year and at least ten days have passed since a “final demand,” its power of collection includes levy (seizure) of wages, bank accounts and other property (such as — in very rare instances for war tax resisters — cars and houses).
          The first step for the IRS, after sending out its notices, will often be to look for bank accounts in banks near the home or office of the resister.
          The next step will be to find employers or clients (based on the W-2 or 1099 forms submitted with the income tax return) and levy the salary of the resister.
          Sometimes, an IRS collections agent will attempt to call or visit you at home to get you to pay up or at least get information about your assets.
          Very rarely, the IRS will attempt to find out if you own property (such as a car or house), then seize it. At any point, the IRS is usually happy to have you settle with them rather than proceed with seizure and auction of property. Click here to see a list of recent IRS house and car seizures against war tax resisters.

The IRS rarely responds to telephone tax resistance because of the small amounts involved. It often costs the IRS more to deal with a resister than is eventually collected.

Criminal Prosecution
Criminal prosecution is possible, but in practice so rare that in most cases the risk is negligible. Since the modern war tax resistance movement began during World War II, only one person (in the 1940s) has been jailed for resisting his war taxes. Only about 30 out of tens of thousands of people in the U.S. who have resisted war taxes have even been brought to federal court and convicted on issues related to their war tax resistance (usually for refusing to reveal sources of assets to the government or, in the 1970s, inflating their W-4 forms by claiming too many dependents). Click here to see a list of court actions against war tax resisters since World War II. /www.warresisters.org/consequences.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. I'm not complicit.
I am fighting for the corrupt government to use my tax money properly. I would feel more responsible if I had actually ever voted for this jerk. And why should I leave and let the neocons win. That is a defeatist attitude you have. Stay and fight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov 03rd 2024, 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC