The Male Perception of Women

[mojaverose]

I posted this in this forum because I didn't know where else to put it. If It's in the wrong place, please forgive me.

I have been helping a young person do a paper on the Media and the Perception of Self. She is primarily interested in the requirement for Thinness and Youth for acceptability.

While I was helping her I found some disquieting information that I thought others might be interested in, and about which others might give me their opinion. I'm not going to get into statistics; just the overview.

In the 50s women were shown primarily in the role of domestic attendant. There were quite a bit fewer portrayals as temptress and/or fallen woman/sex object, and extremely few portrayals of women as colleagues (for those of us at a certain age "Perry Mason" shines. There was very little difference between advertising and programming.

The primary view of men toward women was one of complacent superiority. Woman was accepted, and even lauded, in her lesser role, and it was never expected, or believed that she could, or should, be the colleague of men. The role of temptress and fallen women was one which men enjoyed, but for whom they felt little respect, and about which they felt a degree of shame, mixed with "good ole boy" bravado. They bragged among the men, but were careful to keep their escapades from respectable women. The concept of women as colleagues was unnoticed, even though it Did have some examples in the media.

In the 2000s the portrayals of women have almost exactly reversed, with a sharp difference between programming and advertising. Programming primarily presents women as colleagues, while advertising presents women as sex object, sometimes combined with colleague.
There are comparatively few portrayals of women as domestic attendants.

But what of the view of men toward women? Studies show that earning potential has become an important ingredient of acceptability as mate, but it does not translate into respect or even the primary view of women as colleagues. The primary view of women today, as studies report, is that of sex object. The number of respondents who would divorce a woman who did not remain sexy, or who would never be interested in a woman who was not sexy, has skyrocketed compared to the 50s. Women are conceded Less respect for qualities other than physical than they were 50 years ago.

To be fair, and for those who ask, there was some information about women's views of men, but my primary interest is this one. Since I am an older woman, and not part of the game anymore I wonder. Did the Women's Movement do us any good if our goal was to be considered more of an equal? are we now allowed to play with the boys, as long as our dimensions are acceptable first?

I put this out here hoping for some thoughts. Are those studies so much t.p. or is there something in them? I'd be very interested in whatever anybody would care to comment, as long as they keep it polite. Remember, this is not my opinion, but information gleaned from scientific studies.

Thanks

[knowbody0]

1. im a grandma

and i remember the mindset of the fifties. we did change, and the kids today reflect our hard work imo, however much is taken for granted and they do not see the condors hovering. they cannot imagine.

[Maple]

2. Oh probably quite true

We've tried to reverse 2000 years of conditioning in one generation you know, and it's going to be a long time before the 'inner attitude' matches the 'outer political correctness' in a lot of people.

The same is true for the inner attitude on race, religion, nationality...look how quickly things have reverted in just 4 years of the Bush administration.

I'm seeing and hearing things now that I haven't heard since the late 60's. Standard viewpoints in the 50's, and only dying out during the hippie generation.

The Boomers grew up with June Cleaver at home baking cookies for the Beav, and Marilyn Monroe in the movies, and all the built in conditioning of the times.

We've done very well considering...but it's certainly still there, and is easily revived when 'social approval' for the ideas has once again swung back

[BlackVelvetElvis]

3. Did you post this in the women's issues forum as well?

Wow. I'd like to read this paper!
I am only 38 years old, I wish I could answer your questions.
Fascinating, nonetheless.
You may get some different answers in this forum.

The link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=229

[aquart]

4. About ten years ago I saw an old doctor show rerun.

A woman had come to them desperate for an abortion. A group of men, not one woman among them, decided it would be wrong because she'd regret it later.

I was absolutely horrified by their smug pontificating certainty.

Then I remembered turning in a script for my high school's senior show and being told "it was very good for a girl."

I remember the obligatory catcalls and whistles from construction workers.

And I remember being asked if I was a virgin by a guy I'd said "no" to,
because only virgins had a right to refuse.

Anyone who doesn't think we've come a long way has no idea where we've been.

[Wabbajack]

31. Which doctor show was it?

[aquart]

40. Ben something?

[Karenina]

42. Ben Casey

What a dreamboat! :silly:

[imenja]

5. yes, the women's movement did us good

If women didn't have the opportunity to compete in the work force, we would be at the mercy of men regardless of their fitness as a mate. Women now have more opportunities to extricate themselves from violent marriages than they once did. The women's movement succeeded in transforming the economic position of women in society, but there has been a backlash. You may have encountered Susan Faludi's work in your research. She deals with this very issue. Necessary cultural changes are not complete. Men objectify women as much if not more than ever, but we have the choice not to permit that in our private lives. In short, we don't need men to survive as women once did. Historically, marriage has been a necessity for women. Now it is a choice. There is no question that men need to evolve. I see evidence of misogyny on DU every day. When men raise criticism of a female political figure, they target her appearance. It is utterly offensive and I call them on it. So while we can't change how men view us, we can refuse to tolerate their behavior. And there are always exceptions to such broad cultural patterns.

[ultraist]

24. Well said imenja!

I agree with you on all points.

We know we have made progress when we look at the facts that we no longer are total economic hostages of men, have more access to opportunity and are allowed to not have children or marry (although there is still a lot of pressure on women to marry and have children). The traditional roles are slow to die.

And, yes, there is still a long way to go. Women do not earn equal pay for equal work, they ARE still viewed as sex objects and do not have equal access to opportunity.

The fact that black single mothers are the poorest segment of our society tells us quite a lot.

The backlash we are experiencing now is disheartening but hopefully we will overcome it without too many long term adverse effects. The misogyny that is fueling the anti-choice movement is quite frightening though. IF they are successful in denying women one of their Civil liberties, Right to Privacy, we may see some serious long term damage.

[diamond14]

27. by the 1980's, there had been so many attacks against the Women's Movement

AND the introduction of reaguns, with nancy oooooggling at ronny ALL THE TIME....the norm became the throwback to the 1950's....it
was all ACCEPTED by a new generation of women/men....

this ACCEPTANCE in the 1980's bought back the 'beauty contests', the little jon benet's, the barbie dolls that were all REJECTED by the woman's movement....

the result of the major reagunitus shift of the 1980's caused the creation of monica lewisky (hey, I'm incompetent, so my mission is simple: SEX with the President...why bother working when you can sex your way to the top), condi rice (sex object to bush* and others...how do you get an OIL TANKER named after you), ann coulter (I'm a whore) and others...



if the Women's Movement had continued, if new leaders STOOD UP in the 1980's....the World would be a much much better place....there would be PAY equality, equality in high paying professional occupations (50% of HIGH PAYING careers would be filled by WOMEN), women would control their own bodies...AND there would definitely be a LOT LESS WAR...what created today's war on women was the illusion of the 1980's and reTHUGlicans demonizing of the Women's Movement...


today, the very BEST that could happen for Women in OUR WORLD, is a return to the WOMENS MOVEMENT....

[MADem]

6. You know what is interesting about advertising today?

The way MEN are taking a beating, mostly from women. Back in the old days, there were always funny guys (the Alka Seltzer fat stomach, the That's a Spicy a Meatball guy, for example) but there were a lot of cheerful, competent men, selling everything from cigarettes to gasoline. Some of them were quite attractive. Usually, their wives or girlfriends were looking at them like they were James Bond, or Hero of the Week.

Nowadays, men are portrayed as fucking IDIOTS. While women are mudwrestling in beer ads, guys are being portrayed as incompetent schmucks in all sorts of ads...from portable telephones to car sales to idiot-who-can-barely-use-the-microwave....you name it. Their wives put them down and roll their eyes, even their kids treat the fathers with contempt. It's almost as thoough the women are saying to the guys "You worthless toad...if you can't do it right, just get OUT OF THE WAY! IDIOT!!!!!"

I'm not sure what that means from a societal standpoint, but it just seems to me like incompetent men ads have increased at about the same rate as bimbo women ads. I would love it if some sociology student would sit down and start counting, it might be interesting to see if my sense is correct!

And generally speaking, I've noticed that more ads are just meaner--in the old days there wasn't much meanness in commercials. People aren't insanely happy anymore, and they are often tossing out an insult, regardless of gender. I have the sense that we are all living in the Era of being Pissed Off. Everyone likes to push cultural hot buttons, and they go for the raw insult, the low blow, the meanness disguised as edginess. Rudeness and snarkiness are "cool." It's probably a byproduct of the screaming talking head genre of cable news programming....

I don't especially like the constant nastiness. It's wearying.

It's almost like a more vicious reenactment of the old "battle of the sexes" days...the thirties and 40's, before women kind of gave up for a while in the 50's.

[Maple]

7. Advertising

Well they can't show women being idiots, or doing dumb things, or being slobs, or being treated with contempt...that's politically incorrect.

So it all gets dumped on men.

And oddly enough, a lot of men have now absorbed this stereotype. They now act like slobs and talk like idiots, and are even proud of it...'it's a guy thing' they say. Still clearly differentiating themselves from women, even when it's in a bad way.

Homer Simpson...the undershirt, the scratching, the belching, the underarm noises, the stupid remarks...that's seen as some kind of norm for men now. Not Cary Grant or Clark Gable or Fred Astaire or Bing Crosby. Dinner jackets, savoir faire, manners.

More like Bob Hope these days, but with less wit.

And there are 'dick flicks'...guns, shoot-em-ups,car crashes, no plots, scantily dressed women, even if they ARE proficient in kung fu or something.

And women go along with all this...expect men to act like Homer Simpson, and dutifully watch 'chick flicks' themselves...sort of a movie version of the soaps their mothers watched I gather.

Although in an earlier age everyone watched Gone With The Wind...a sure 'chick flick' if it came out now.

Jeese...it took several years before anyone could cope with a female captain on Voyager. They not only called her Sir for ages, she always appeared on the verge of tears, and fretted the Prime Directive to the point of insanity, until they hit their stride.

We're still in the changeover stage, and don't know quite what to make of it all yet.

Women can wear pants, and nobody sees it as odd. Men still can't wear skirts. Even the thought makes them uneasy.

I guess they think it's better to belch and scratch, even if they do look like idiots in the ads.

[displacedtexan]

9. Advertisers know that women control household spending...

in most families; therefore, they appeal to the "intelligence" of the potential purchaser.

It's all about selling a product.

When advertisers figured out how to use demographic data to their advantage, women started looking smart in ads, and men started looking stupid (but Oh, So Family-loving and willing to bow to the purse string holder's wisdom).

The fact that so many families are now in debt up to their ears makes me wonder if both men and women aren't too susceptible to advertising, which is designed to separate them from their money.

"Truth in advertising" is one of my personal GGGGGGRRRRRRR issues.

I wish Ralph Nader had stuck with his original vocation!

Don't mind me. I'm just ranting this morning.

[MADem]

13. Great point!

It IS all about the money. These guys aren't a charity, and they want as much of your money, or my money, as they can get!

[Pithlet]

33. Yes. But, in my case they got it wrong.

I'm a woman. In fact, I'm a stay at home mom in my early 30's. Marketers love people like me. And I HATE that trend in commercials that portrays the woman as the controlling bitch and the man as an incompetent boob. Nothing turns me off from an ad faster.

[Nobody]

10. Radio ads

This morning I woke up to a Best Buy ad that was clearly aimed at men. I clearly heard the "this ad is for the men; women, turn the radio down" part at the beginning. The ad went on to discuss the old, musty, OK guys last time we talked about messing up the laundry so she won't ask you again.... before launching into the electronics ad.

This bugged me because even though women know the old ploy of pretending to be incompetant at houshold chores so you don't have to do them, the ad still assumed that women weren't interested in electronics.

Female computer geeks exist. I am one. I know several. You want to see electronics, treat women like customers and aim your ads at us, too. That ad will ensure I will never buy another ethernet cable for my home network at Best Buy again. Worse than that ad was the assumption that a woman shopping for electronics doesn't know what she wants or how to hook it up.

And I'm wondering if any of you heard the increase your bust size by two cup sizes radio ad. It's not aimed at the women, it's aimed at men.

[alarimer]

14. Have you seen any sitcoms lately?

Of course they all suck but basically in them they guy is usually a bumbling idiot too. I have no idea who is writing these things (they aren't even funny).

[Lorien]

37. And the woman is usually sexy

the husband is often overweight and unattractive (world according to Jim, King of Queens, Yes Dear, etc.) and the wife is slim and sexy. The message is "men are dumb slobs and women are sex objects"- it's definitely not complementary towards either sex.

[MADem]

41. I'm out of it--I just can't stomach those sitcoms

But your assessment doesn't surprise me at all!

[mojaverose]

15. That Was Part Of My Research

As I mentioned above, there were studies of men portrayed in the media, and women's responses.
I'm not sure that the number of insults and "Dumb bunnies" has changed. It has simply changed focus. Instead of the woman who doesn't know a tire from a steering wheel, we now have men who can't wash a sock.
I totally agree that insult advertising is off the charts, and should be stopped. It seems, however, that making one sex feel smart at the expense of the other, pays off. If it didn't they wouldn't do it.
I too, Hate those ads where the female character berates her counterpart for being dumb. They even had one awhile back where a girl Child rolled her eyes at a boy for not knowing how a garage door opener worked. Enough is Enough.
But I'm still primarily interested here in men's attitudes toward women, and the impact of the media. We worked long and hard to get women equality and I wonder if it's done any good. Of course I know it's an evolution, but do today's women fare any better in society than we did? That's my question.

[Nikia]

28. I don't know if it is really a good image for women either

In most of those ads and sitcoms, you have the smart and often attractive woman loving the Neaderthal man anyway. He is incompetent so she must take care of him. It sort of makes a case of going back to how things were in the 50's. Men can't handle taking care of things around the house so women have to take care of it, even though women are often working full time as well.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. A brief thought

I am only asserting my opinion and observations, but I have seen a very positive outlook on women. I remember growing up (I am 35) and seeing movies and shows where the heroine had to be saved..BY A MAN! Now, we see women saving each other and saving men! I love strong women (may explain why I am a homo, but that is another thread! :))but compare a single genre...superheroes.

In the 70's, there was Wonder Woman and the Bionic Woman. Now, if you remember those shows, think back on them. I have the Wonder Woman season 1 DVD set and I was surprised at the number of times Steve Trevor saved Wonder Woman or how easy it was to capture her. Although, in the end, she is portrayed as the heroine, it is still a message of "she's just a girl." As for the Bionic Woman, poor Jamie Summers was always at the mercy of some nut-job and cried alot! Hell, even Charlie's Angels made the main characters look weak. (But I still love that show!)

Fast forward to the 90's/00's (is that right?)...we have Xena (best show ever!) and others like Birds of Prey (should have NEVER been canceled) where the women, not only kick ass, they are self-reliant, competent, and need no man to complete them...they are complete!

Therefore, I feel women have come a long way in the way they are viewed by men...but are still not where they should be. Some of the problems do not lie with what men think of women, but what other WOMEN think of WOMEN. The virgin/whore controversy still rages in the female community. I mean, shit, there is a group called "Concerned Women for America" that advocates women in the home, yet they don't find it all ironic that the women leading the group are NEVER at home making their man his meal! Then on the flip side, you have the uber-feminists who show disdain for women who CHOOSE to stay at home. They totally miss the point that the woman made a choice for herself. Yet, they proclaim to be for the equality of all women, meaning those women can make choices for themselves.

So what the hell does this derailed train of thought mean? I feel the real question is not what is the perception men have of women, but what is the perception women have of other women! As a gay man, I do not determine my self-worth by what straights think of me. Women should not determine their self-worth based on the perceptions of men....if they do, then they will be at the mercy of men! And, personally, all the women I know, are too damn smart for that!

[MADem]

12. The "own worst enemy" theme

I understand what you are saying. I think there are elements of this sort of thing for both genders, though men do it differently--towel snapping, the 90 lb. weakling, that kind of thing. Thus far, though, women do seem to take the brunt of it--"cat fights" seem to sell (separating the MEN from their allowance, maybe?), and those who aren't that bright seem to copy the behavior. Monkey see, monkey do, maybe? Men, on the other hand, do the "pee on the tree" thing more--establishing dominance amonsgst their fellow males in some fashion (when they aren't being derided by a woman or child for not being able to use the can opener!).

It's a fascinating subject, an interesting topic, too. I personally don't know too many people who pull these sorts of stunts in their day to day lives, but collectively, it must exist, because advertisers don't do a lot of experimenting--they go for the tried and true formulas that push their products.

Everyone seems to be pushing and shoving to find their place in the pecking order. Everyone wants to hang on to what's theirs. Life is a battleground, nowadays!

[Baclava]

11. Being a male...

We have learned over the decades to run like hell anytime anyone asks these kind of questions.

Our life span is increasing.

[Igel]

16. You've answered your own question.

Yes, the women's movement did some good. Unfortunately, most of the NOW folk I knew back in the '70s/'80s were as anti-men as they were pro-woman. It's possible to be one and not the other.

In any event, notice that the sex-object part hasn't changed. That's not likely to change, if you want the species to continue.

I think you mischaracterized a bit of the programming from the '50s. You found women at work: just in subordinate roles. Women weren't always domestic attendants, but they were always attendants. That part has largely changed.

In stead, women may still be sex objects, but they can be other than mere attendants. On the other hand, I think that the higher their status, the less likely they are to seem approachable.

[mojaverose]

20. Agreement - But

I totally agree with you that it is possible to be pro-woman without being anti-male. It is difficult, however, to be Perceived as pro-woman but not anti-male when one is accussed of Male Bashing when one talks about the History of the matter, and present day statistics. It's the same problem that Black people encounter, although more whites are willing to grant the Awfulness of slavery than men are willing to grant the Awfulness of the female condition. Notice that, even now, although women were bought and sold, and had no rights, nobody is willing to call it slavery.
I disagree that the sexual objectification of the female is necessary for the continuation of the species. It is possible to find someone sexually interesting without divorcing that fact from their humanity.

Also, I am saddened by the earlier poster's decision to run, because male response was one of the chief reasons I posted it here, and not in the women's forum. I am Not interested in calling men names, which, I think, is one of their fears. I just want to know if they think my post is an accurate indication of their thinking.

[Igel]

25. You're right; "sex object" was the wrong term to use.

I have been around a few women feminists that actively engaged in male-bashing; I couldn't spin it as recounting history if I wanted to. My mother was one. She wanted me to be a girl, and my son to be a girl; all men are conspiring to oppress women, that's the only goal they hate, including me; real tinfoil hat usage.

I did come out of it with a fairly non-sexist attitude, though. The few times I've had to hire somebody, I basically ignored their personal info. Once that got me half-jokingly told off. The office manager (woman) and I were trying to agree who to hire. We agreed almost at once. Then she looked and realized we were about to hire 3 coeds, 2 of color. I checked; she was right. She adamantly refused to let this happen, and insisted we replace one with the most qualified white male among the applicants. She didn't want to have an entirely male, majority-minority office staff. Turns out the guy was only 17 (we didn't check ages).

I actually think it's easier for a woman to "play with the boys" if she's not a bombshell, in most industries, and in jobs that have some sort of prestige. They get taken more seriously, and there's no "sleeping to the top" suspicion. I'm not sure most men would agree with me, or if it's even usually true.

For lower-level "attendant" jobs, I think looks tend to count with some men. Not with others.

I'd revise this and try to make it sound reasonable, but I have a 1 year old going ballistic and trying to dismantle my computer.

[mojaverose]

30. You Were Fine - Explained Yourself Very Well

I'm sorry that you had that experience of the women's movement. There are some black people who hate whites, too. It's a sad, but common, side light to Any struggle for equality. Instead of blaming the condition, some people blame the people.
I have no doubt that slave ship owners and commanders were fine people - for their time. I have no doubt that most husbands were fine men - for their time. It's not their fault that they lived in a time where that Awfulness was considered normal. It must be remembered that the "prevailing Knowledge" of the day was that women and black men were like children, not very bright, and needed a strong guiding hand, for their own protection. A lot of white men considered it their duty to do just that.
To blame a condition on people who are long dead is counterproductive, and a waste of energy, since the past cannot be remedied. To blame living people for the sins of their forebearers is cruel. Remember, they didn't cause it, and got no benefit from it. True, there Is a lingering legacy of power and wealth, but they didn't cause That either.
I think most men, as most white people, are eager to change, and only want to know how. The problem is that men and women use different language to discuss the same things, and the same language to discuss different things.

[prairierose]

17. In some ways, the second wave of the the women's movement....

did help us. There are more career choices for women. Rather than being talked into nursing or teaching, women can now do other things. However, because of the decline in salaries for everyone, more women are in the workplace because it now takes 2 salaries to support a family. We are still waiting for equality in salaries and we are still waiting for equal rights. I no longer believe that I will see them in my lifetime, at least not in the US.

When I was young & on the picket line, I really believed that I would see major changes and eventually see equal rights and equal pay. But in the '80's when the right targeted the idea of politically correct language and behavior and made these ideas dirty words, we started moving back wards in many ways. And today that same set of reactionaries is working harder and making more progress at pushing women and everyone else back into the dark ages. Unless women and other marginalized groups work to take back the language and fight for equality, we will slide even further down the slope to darkness.

Today, my women students have more choices and more responsibilities. They now have the right to 2 jobs, one to support their family economically and the same old job of running the household and caring for the children.

However, we have also seen the return of the female body objectified for the pleasure of men. OK, it never really went away but it seems to be even more blatant today.

What I see in advertising and so much of what passes for entertainment today, is stupidity and cruelty. So many characters, both male & female are just plain stupid . And the level of emotional and physical cruelty has risen to an appalling level and people think it is funny! I'm sorry but I have never thought cruelty was funny.

I have never thought that marginalizing any group of people was a positive for society. Yet, this is what we see today. More groups of people being pushed to the side for the aggrandizement of rich white men. If you fit in any other group, then you'd better sit down & shut up. Well, I can't shut up and I really am feeling that if I stay in this country, I will end up either in a concentration camp or burned at the stake.

I do not see young women concerned about these issues and many of the women my age never liked the idea of feminism. I have always believed that "Feminism is the radical idea that women are people" and yet, we are still second class citizens. When I was young, there were many other groups that were there with us as second class citizens and today we see the reactionary right working very hard to make more groups part of the second class citizen section behind the fence.

I do not see many people getting upset about the loss of civil rights, the loss of the vote, the loss of economic power, the loss of freedom and liberty and I fear for the future.

[H2O Man]

18. I'd be curious

if there are any serious studies that compare ads done by (primarily) women versus ads made by men. The reason I ask is that I worked for many years in two settings of interest: a human service agency, and a mental health clinic. In both cases, the vast majority of conflicts between co-workers were between women. I was surprised at times at the things that some women said about others.

I'm not suggesting one sex is more or less prone to what should be unacceptable behavior. My wife is the director of a human service agency. She has her MSW/CSW. Yet her parents both have acted like her less-educated brothers, who have good but not outrageous jobs, are far more successful. My wife and her brohers were all good high school athletes; the parents never missed the boys' competitions, and except for once, they never attended their daughters'. The brothers have sons; we have daughters. These grandparents favor grandsons, and have come to totally ignore the granddaughters.

I'm not shy, so I made a point of finding a quiet time to tell each of my "in-laws" (out-laws!) that they needed to take note of how they treat people. They were extremely rude to my wife at a family event, and when she spoke to them, they made clear that they will never speak to our family again.

Our daughters are 7 and 11. They do not know these grandparents, nor their uncles, aunts, & cousins on that side of the family. They live less than 10 miles from here. They are upper middle class, and they put on an "all-American family" front. It amazes me. My daughters are both top of their classes, and wonderful children that most people would be proud to have as family.

I tell that simply to say that the pathology in families and interpersonal relationships isn't limited to male vs female. It runs much deeper than that.

[mojaverose]

21. A Very Interesting Point

It's almost like the 50s are alive and well at your house. I, too would like to know if media events made by women are different in tone and content than those made by men. Unfortunately, because most of those are collaborative efforts, few statistics are probably available.

There Are a few female producers, writers, and directors in the Motion Picture industry who turn out product that is understandable by women as indicative of their condition. Unfortunately, although I have not taken a scientific poll, the men I know think of them as "Chick Flicks. There are also some women in the industry who repeat the attitudes of men.

It almost exactly parallels the experience of Black people in the Media. Although some few Black writers, directors, and producers make product acceptable to Black and White alike, most of them, when they make a movie indicative of the Black experience, are less accepted by White audiences than Black. It's an interesting phenomenon. Both women and blacks go to see white male movies, the reverse does not seem to be true.

BTW I wish you luck with your out-laws. However, sadly, I do not expect much. Predjudices are inbred and not cured easily. I feel for your wife and daughters. That's pretty much the life I had in the 50s, and continuing. The boys were always better, no matter what I did.

[H2O Man]

22. Thank you.

For almost 30 years, my wife took shit from them without ever recognizing that they were the problem. She thought if she could only do this better, or that better, they would like her. But those days are gone and over with.

One of my favorite aunts & uncles knows the deal, and they fill in for "grandparents." Although they live a good distance away (about 100 miles) my uncle will drive down for any after-school event or ball game where little girls should have a grandparent present. Birthdays and other holidays, too.

Our society needs to redefine "family" in an extended manner. By no coincidence, it would have been in the 1930-50s that the extended family was reduced to nuclear units, which were furher reduced to single-parent/fractured families in the 1980s and '90s. We must change that. Children require a greater support system than that. And when we redefine the family structure -- including making changes in the restrictive maaraige laws -- then and only then can we successfully begin to deal with unhealthy images of who women and men really are.

The women's movement accomplished many good things. But there is a lot of work left.

[mojaverose]

23. Absolutely

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. Conflicting roles for people

After the war there was a major effort to get women (Rosie the Riveter)out of the workforce. There was concern about all the men coming home, and they would need to find jobs. We see these types of portrayals continuing into the 1950's.

Today I think men have difficulty trying to achieve what they think women want. In that they believe they must make more money than the woman, and be strong enough, masculine to protect her. While pretending that the woman make as much or more/ is strong, but feminine etc.

And you see women trying to balance two conflicting roles as well. We have one set of rules for how we interface with the world and another for how we interface with potential mates.

[Nikia]

26. My workplace needs gender sensitivity/sexual harassment training

From my little world view, men think of women as less competent and judge her by her sexual attractiveness. I have been sexually harassed directly, witnessed it happen to other women there, and have overheard men there comment on the attractiveness of almost every woman that they encounter. Luckily, the supervisers are not like this, anymore. I don't think that the media helps their perception. We have magazines in the breakroom and they are always commenting on women's appearances of the women shown in these magazines. They even did this with the Olympic athletes pictured in a sports magazine, disregarding their achievements. When one even brought it up, the others said "Well so and so is hotter." and continued this line of conversation. Most of the men who we know, both urban and rural, are like this to some extent.
Before you think that it is just me living in an unenlightened part of the country, my sister in Chicago said that things are better in the workplace but worse in other aspects. Socially, most men comment about women's appearances all the time. As far as dating, most men want to be dating the hottest woman regardless of any other qualities. Many men don't want to committ because they are always looking for someone more attractive.
I know that these are just antedotes, but they are real. I am glad that I am married because I don't think that I could even bring myself to date men after I have experienced what I have. Sometimes, I don't think that I'd mind if the American Taliban made us all wear burkas.

[mojaverose]

29. Oh, Yes You Would

I know that safety at any price is sometimes Very attractive. I totally understand what you're going through, and sometimes I used to pray that I'd become invisible.
But we've Got to hang in there. The right to be sexually interesting while still considered a competent, accomplishing individual, just like men get, is our Right, and we should settle for nothing less.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. The Burka, in a way, is the opposite side of the same coin

Women in repressive cultures such as that of the Taliban are forced to cover themselves and to deny their beauty and sexuality. In most Western cultures, women are compelled to reveal and accentuate their sexual appearance through form fitting clothing, cosmetics, and even surgical procedures. We are required to aspire to this generic beauty standard that also denies us our unique beauty and sexuality. It's not nearly as brutal as the Taliban but it sucks all the same. It also sucks for men because they are rarely allowed to truly love and appreciate real women.

[entanglement]

34. Not exactly

The 'compulsion' for women in Taliban Afghanistan was far more severe IMHO. It included beatings, torture and jail. No one compels women in Western cultures to wear skimpy clothing and threatens to beat / mutilate them if they refuse. I agree there is some peer / media pressure on women, but at least they have a choice.

[Undercover Owl]

35. it's as though they are EXTREME sex objects

It seems that women under the Taliban are considered to be sex objects to an extreme, that's why they have to conceal practically their entire body & face & hair.

What do you think? It's just an idea.

[entanglement]

36. Agree. Another thing

is the idea (prevalent in some Islamic societies) that women are the cause of sin, a source of temptation to men who lead them astray. Thus, covering up a woman would prevent men from sinning. I wonder why no one came up with the idea that men should be blindfolded to prevent them from 'sinning'. Mind you, things were very bad for men under Taliban rule as well (I can imagine many ways in which they suffered ;-) ) but as is usually the case, the women suffered far more. It was very bad because pre-Taliban Afghanistan actually had women as lawyers, doctors and other professionals and a fair amount of freedom (mini-skirts could be seen in Kabul's clubs, for example). They suffered drastic reduction in their freedoms overnight.

[Skittles]

38. let me tell you my experience

when I was in the military I smashed a sergeant in the face with a big-ass stapler because he was trying to paw me. Broke his nose and some teeth. Guess what? He never messed with me again, proving they can INDEED "help themselves". I always use this approach. Guy at work says something stupid and sexist and I kick him im the shin. Problem solved, they don't talk that way to me anymore. Sure beats "sensitivity training" or filing a f'ing law suit.

[SOteric]

39. It's hard to assess studies without actually reading them

for ourselves.

In very general terms, however, I'd have to say that the societal expectation for men hasn't really remained the same as it was in the 50's, either.

A heterosexual young man isn't guided by family and friends to immediately marry and build a family. If anything, young people of both genders are delaying long term relationships and growing more and more 'picky' about what is deemed worthy in a life long mate.

I'd also have to point out that simple social skills are not what they were in bygone years.