This is what happened at my school this morning...

[TN al]

...While tutoring some students in math, I am a teacher but only work with remedial pull-outs in an alternative school, my special ed teacher came in as we were wrapping up and asked if I has seen the SOTU speech. I replied that he would not do anything but lie to me and I didn't need that so no, I had not. The other teacher went on a little complaining about what * said and I agreed with her. One of the students noticed my bandfortruth and asked me about it, so I showed it to them while the special ed teacher said it meant that * was a big fat liar. Just as she said that a woman who works for a youth service organization within the school poked her head in the room and told us, in front of the students, that they could hear what we were saying and that it was wholely inappropriae in front of students. I escorted the students back to their rooms while the special ed teacher told this other woman that to call us out like that in front of students was inappropriate. When I got back the special ed teacher was finished but I told the youth services woman that since I have a degree in teaching, M. Ed. from Vandy as a matter of fact, I would not be needing any advice on what was appropriate or not in a classroom from her until she had a teaching degree and that a discussion of current events was right and appropriate in an academic setting and that even if we were taking a partisan side I have done that with my classes in the past and always listened respectfully and made other students listen respectfully to opposing viewpoints. She told me she felt that the students would not feel as if they could speak freely despite hearing others do so because I was grading them. I don't grade them and she knows it, I only tutor them in this position. She then said that my not wanting her advice on classroom management and content because she lacks a teaching degree was the stupidest thing she had ever heard. I decided to leave her office at that point.

In the past this woman has gotten the principal to ask me not to say anything derogatory about * because someone else works here whose husband is in Iraq and that I should leave my feelings out of any discussion because it might offend the third party. I have since learned that the woman with the military husband hates * as much as anyone and is happy to hear derogatory statements about him.

When I brought back a Veterans for Kerry placard from a Kerry appearance she insisted I take it down telling me she would go to the director of schools, not the principal, if I didn't. The placard was on my desk but buried behind the usual mess on my desk and not in students view but she wanted it gone anyway.

When I brought it back after the election, as a keepsake of when I saw Kerry, she went to the principal to insist that I remove it.

Lastly a Kerry\Edwards bumper magnet was removed from my vehicle before the election but I have no proof of who might have done that.

[UdoKier]

1. Here in SF schools, Anti-Bush paraphernelia is the norm.

And I'm sure whatever discussions occur go along the same lines. I don't even think it's seen as partisan, since the democrats are seen as a corporate party and Bush as simply beyond the pale here. The question is not "are you GOP or dem?", it's "are you Dem or Green/Progressive?"

I only wish this city wasn't just an island of sanity in a sea of reddishness...

[Pithlet]

2. I hate to say it, but I kind of agree with the woman

although she shouldn't have said anything to you in front of the students. But, I had a teacher in middle school who was very partisan in her discussion in front of the class. I don't think it was ever her intention, but it made me feel horrible. It was very uncomfortable to be a captive audience and listen to how all your ideals are stupid. I felt very belittled. Kids don't necessarily have the capacity to understand that it isn't personal when someone disagrees with you or your ideas. It can feel like an insult. And, kids really are a captive audience. They HAVE to be there. I think that discussion of current events is important, but I think that being overly partisan on either side is inappropriate for teachers.

[Yupster]

13. Hey pithlet - this is historic

We agree on something !

I agree with the woman too.

I taught history for nine years and we often got into current events but I was always very careful to try to sound non-partisan and give both views of issues. When a student asked me why President Reagan said some particularly idiotic thing, I would try to squeeze my face into a generic pose while trying to explain the man's alleged rationale.

I think it wrong for a public school teacher to expouse partisan positions in front of students.

I would certainly never insult the president in front of students.

[ultraist]

16. Teachers are not allowed to express their political views?

Why is it inappropriate for a teacher to express their political views? The best professors I had were those who honestly expressed their views while allowing dissent in the classroom.

Children get all kinds of propaganda shoved down their throats in the public schools, I commend any teacher who dares to be HONEST with the children.

Children should not be given the false impression that everything is neutral and no one has a position. That is NOT the real world. People do take sides on positions and modeling that they don't is POOR and DISHONEST modeling.

Why should we LIE to our children? Should we also not teach them about slavery because it might reflect poorly on some president?

Well done TN al! Thank you for being honest and having the courage to present the truth to these children.

[trixie]

18. I completely disagree with

The original poster and ultraist. I work with children too. I am very, very careful not to let my own views corrupt teaching. I keep things to a current events level and let them debate each other with me as a moderator.

We Democrats are always saying we believe in equal rights and individual rights. I feel the parents of the children have the right to raise them as they want and our job is to facilitate thought process.

Having a spat in front of kids was wayyyyyyyyyy out of line.

Ultraist - you said your favorite professor.....well that must be college not k-12.

[ultraist]

34. I'm not referring to the spat

I was referring to talking honestly about Bush. I have to de-program my children when they return from public schools on occassion. They are reading propaganda filled "weekly readers" and hearing LIES about Bush and his administration.

That is a disservice to our children. I did not say it's appropriate for teachers and admin to have a spat in front of children.

As a parent of a ten year old and 13 yo, I am well aware of having a united front.

BTW, are you certain you mean "faciliating thought processes" or do you mean "teaching critical thinking skills" because if you were to "faciliate thought processes" you would be essentially brainwashing.

Brainwashing children and discouraging them to dissent does not scaffold independent and critical thinking skills.

[Pithlet]

35. Not lie. I'm not even close to advoacting that.

And I don't think a teacher necessarily even has to stay away from political material, entirely. And, with older students, I could even go for expressing political opinion so long as it is relevant to the subject matter and done so in a way that doesn't mock anyone who doesn't agree.

I wasn't talking about refraining from teaching history. Slavery happened, and is a part of history.

I wouldn't stand for it one second if my kids' teacher railed on and on about Bush, and how anyone who doesn't support him is unpatriotic. Why should I and my kids have to put up with that?

Edited because it looked like I was pro-Bush. Should have been UNpatriotic. I hope there weren't too many alerts. *embarrassed*

[SmokingJacket]

40. Professors are different...

Young kids are put in a weird position if their parents and their teachers are telling them opposite things about politics. A college student -- or even a high school student -- can handle it. But a preteen or younger child shouldn't have to question their parents' loyalties... yet.

[Pithlet]

36. Mark this day in history!

Actually, I think it did happen one time before. I don't remember what it was about, though :)

[K-W]

41. You cant stand still on a moving train.

Neutrality is relative and can be wrong.

Teachers should teach the facts, even if that means being partisan.

[cattleman22]

31. I agree

Teachers and professors should do their best to limit their partisan beliefs in front of students. It is one thing to encourage students to have a classroom discussion about current events, it is entirely different if the teacher participates in the discussion by divuling his or her partisan opinions.

[Pithlet]

39. I do want to clarify

That I don't think that what you did was so horrible, or that I don't understand it. Teachers are human. I can see myself doing the same thing, forgetting where I was. But, teachers should make an effort to refrain from doing that in front of their students, no matter which side of politics they fall on, which is why I agreed with the woman. She was very wrong for doing it in front of your co-worker and students, though. I would take her to task for that.

[rkc3]

3. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din...

I'd have told her where and how to go screw herself.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood from a tirade from a RW nutter this morning - I told him where and how - but since when is dissent a bad thing in this country?

I absolutely hate the fact that we have to be careful of everything we say and think these days.

You should be proud of yourself for being civil to this idiot.

[AP]

4. I would have avoided the "I have a better degree than you"

line of reasoning.

That's not very democratic.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Not Me, AP

Sometimes one needs to use a velvet cloth and sometimes one needs to use a hammer.
The Professor

[AP]

17. How is that a hammer? Either you're right or wrong about

the situation. Plenty of people with degrees might think it's wrong to be honest with your students about your views of the world when you're just conversing, while plenty of people without higher degrees might see that it's OK.

This isn't an issue of whether you passed a test or read a book about the philosophy of education. It's about very basic values relating to politics and to how you treat people and you don't need a degree to understand them.

In fact, responding to this by saying, essentially, "shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, I have more and better degrees than you have" sort of forecloses having to discuss what is really the important issue here.

If I COULDN'T explain why I thought it was OK, I'd probably say, shut up I'm smarter and more experienced. I don't think that wins the argument. One should be able to explain why their actions are OK without having to shut off the discussion like that.

The 'hammer" would have been the incredibly smart, insightful statement explaining why teachers shouldn't censor themselves in that situation.

Intellectual snobbery that avoids real discussion is not a hammer.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Sometimes People Just Need To Get Slammed

If you define that as intellectually snobbery, that's ok by me. Sometimes the insightful statement you describe is not appropriate as it's insight would be lost on the target.

One must know one's audience. I will assume that the OP knew the audience well enough to know that the person needed to be slammed, not convinced.
The Professor

[AP]

23. Couldn't disagree more.

The OP's audience is probably more convinced then ever that she's right, and this will go on.

If a slam was appropriate this time, what's appropriate next time? A double slam?

[ProfessorGAC]

27. That's Ok

We can agreeably disagree. I'm no longer in the mood to try to convince and play nice. If the audience seems amenable to reasoned discussion, that's what they'll get. If they are full of "conservative principle" they'll get both barrels.

I've always been the former. I'm tired of it.
The Professor

[AP]

28. Although it didn't feel good when you did it...

...I bet you'll discover that at the end of trying both strategies it will be the former than you find was much more productive.

[saracat]

44. I think she only mentioned her degree

because a non teacher was lecturing her on appropriateness in the classroom. Bsically it sounds as if she legitimately told her she had nothing on which to base her opinion, as she wasn't a teacher.
If a Doctor had told someone they knew what was a more appropriate medicine to take because of their medical experience should you be offended?
I don't think so. I don't think this personsopinion as to what is appropriate in the classroom ought to be considered with the same authority of an educator.
The whole conversation is actually a moot point as the teacher wasn't even in "the classroom" but tutoring and was "overheard" by this person.

[AP]

45. The way I saw it was that because it didn't have anything to do

with teaching, the degree was irrlevant and that it actually revealed the poster's anxiety about being a part-timer (IIR the story C).

[reprehensor]

5. Keep swingin'!

That's the spirit!

[mahina]

6. Bless your heart- you are doing the right thing,

but you need to know the real rules. Don't lose your job. She would consider that a victory.

You can tell her that what you said is the truth...tell her how all the lies of this admin. (ok some of the lies...time won't allow all!)
Music is a great way to reach out too...or revolutionary quotes from the founding fathers printed on t's. I would focus on someting positive that you support to change the context of the discussion. For/ against the idiot king is one thing...do you have any progressive legislation this session or other positive you can focus attention on?

Remember the agressor defines the context of the battle. If your objective is to shut her up and you already know the principle supports you and you are right, how about initiating you own complaint agaist her? Or set up time away from school, you and the third party and this gal, to talk it all through. Maybe you will change her mind!

Aloha, good luck, come from love!

[CindyDale]

7. My favoirte teacher in high school was a woman in her 60s

who started every class with a soliloquy, acting as if she were alone and we weren't there. One I remember in particular she did the day after we invaded Cambodia. She was so stunned and so mournful.

It was a really great way to get kids' attention. If it's all divorced from reality, who is going to care about academics?

[Johonny]

9. I agree

The teachers I remember most are the teachers that from time to time went political. I certainly got my attention.

[CindyDale]

8. Remember Paulo Freire?

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/11_04/edit.shtml

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

10. I can't say she's totally wrong......

Although it's obvious I doubt she would say the same to a teacher talking up the Bush agenda. The fact of the matter is I've personally come across teachers who are right wingers that make statements in class, and it does make some kids feel like they can't say anything in opposition because it isn't their place to question someone older.

[jazzjunkysue]

11. TN: You did nothing wrong. This woman is a fool.

I'm a teacher, too. We have to make sure we don't use our influential position to strong arm students. That would make lecturing your opinions to the entire class during classtime a no-no, no matter what side you're on. But you didn't do that.

The thing here is that you were not addressing the whole class. This woman overheard you from the hall and butted into a private conversation that she was not part of. You're allowed to have your own opinion, even if it's within the earshot of a child. The child knew you were not giving her instruction, and that you were having an sdult private conversation. In that context, it's very educationally sound to hear teachers expressing their opinions to each other. It models personal responsibility. Besides, Bush gets slammed regularly in the media, so, it's common. If you were making things up, like, "The President shot a democrat in the head and covered it up," then, they'd have a reason to call what you said slander. But, the president is not insulated from constituant's opinions.

The fact that the child has a parent in Iraq is irrelevant. There's no way that child can ever be kept away from criticism of the president. It's possible that if you said something directly affecting the student, like, "No one will come home from Iraq alive" you'd be guilty of a lack of sensitivity, but, not wrong-doing.

Whoever that self-appointed trouble maker is, the school adminstrator needs to explain to her that she cannot declare herself the defender of the right wing in that building. She was out of line, and ultimately, it's the administrator's fault for not establishing the power structure in the building.

You are innocent of any improper conduct. BTW, I'm halfway through my New York State administration certification, so, I'm well informed about this, from the inside. My Kerry sticker caught some flack from a couple of parents, but to hell with them. I wear a peace sign with a red, white, and blue ribbon on my ID tag every day. I stuff it right in their faces. Too god-damned bad. It's my right.

Everyone: Start wearing peace signs, every day. Let's flood america with them.

[fishwax]

12. How old are the students?

I think that has a great deal of bearing on what kind of discussion is appropriate.

The other teachers comment that "bush is a big fat liar" doesn't seem to me like the kind of "discussion" that would have much benefit for kids, but I think the youth services woman was totally out of line to call you out in front of students.

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Similar Thing With My Mom

My nieces are 5 and 9. we were out to dinner with my mom, my wife and i, my sister, her husband and the two girls.

My br-in-law, an ex-Marine, absolutely LOATHES Li'l Georgie. So, we started talking about it, and he's calling him a liar, and i'm saying he's a dunce, and so on. We're talking about specific issues, failures, and lies of the administration, so it's not JUST namecalling.

My mom, who is a Bushbot, (don't know how that happened, she used to vote Dem), says not to say that stuff "because we shouldn't talk about the prez in front of the girls like that."

My reply: "The truth is NEVER inappropriate. At least not in my country. You're still an American, right mom?" No further criticism to me or my BiL was forthcoming.
The Professor

[Cha]

20. I know how you feel.

I was told by the manager of our co-op the other day that it was time for me to not talk about politics anymore in the store. There have been complaints about me to her and to her husband who runs the YMCA in our town here in New York.

The manager and her husband agree with me..but they want the co-op to be neutral.

Like my son said.."you got talk about it for a long time..before they said anything"(I got into politics in 2000 because of Social Security)..

The fascists and their followers can't stand dissent.

[Cleita]

26. See my post #24.

This reminds me of Soviet Russia. One had to be careful what one said about the Stalin government to neighbors, relatives and even your own children. To not parrot the party line could get you a visit from the police in the middle of the night.

This is very wrong. You need to identify those who agree with you in your work place and stand united against them.

[gratuitous]

21. Let's see . . .

TN al doesn't grade the students, he's a tutor. So I don't think the students are going to be "intimidated" in terms of worrying about their grades.

TN also says he often conducts classroom discussions, and insists that every side get a full and fair hearing. For someone outside the classroom to render a judgment on what goes on in that room based on a snippet of one conversation that didn't even involve the students is meddling, plain and simple.

The meddlesome woman has a history of passive-aggressive behavior. She's quick to take offense on behalf of someone else (who apparently isn't offended at all), and rather than address the problem directly, runs tattling to the authorities. When she doesn't get satisfaction for her childish behavior, she threatens to go higher up the chain of authority.

I'm not sure what in her poor behavior is worth defending. I admire TN al for his restraint. That woman would have left my presence in tears.

[noamnety]

22. I don't think the conversation was professional

It's one thing to discuss the issues in a way that encourages students to think for themselves. It's another thing entirely to announce that Bush is a "big fat liar" in front of the students. I would have to say I think that crosses the line.

That's not even a matter of showing political bias; it's a matter of developing critical thinking skills.

I've had students ask me about political issues, especially leading up to the election. I had one who had just turned 18 ask me who she should vote for. I know she respects my views a lot, and I prossibly could have said vote for Kerry, here's why. But I didn't. I sent her to one of the websites where they ask your views on a number of different issues, and tell you who you match most closely with.

She asked a lot of questions during the quiz, like questions about privatized Social Security. That was a good test for me, but on each issue I went through the pros and cons. If she asked after that what I thought, I said "personally, I prefer _______ " but she knew that I at least had made an effort to understand the other point of view, even if I didn't agree with it.

That sort of thing makes better students, which is what we as teachers should be striving for.

As right as you know you are, I don't want some teacher who is equally "right" about Bush, or about anti-marriage laws, etc. telling my own daughter in class that their opinion is the only right one.

Bush is a chronic liar, and does nothing but rape the economy and hurt people globally. But it's better to allow the students to get to that conclusion themselves.

[immoderate]

37. You got my vote.

I taught too. And the main reason we're there is to get the students to think. And there are other nuance we should constantly stick in like "appropriateness." (Note: I am an old hippie, and voted against things like dress codes every chance I got. But I think kids should be educated about the possible consequences of challenging authority.)

In class discussions, I would carefully assume a neutral pose. And that's just it. They knew it was a pose for the role of moderator. I didn't supply answers I asked questions. My students knew that I appreciated a good challenge. And sometimes I would respond with, "Who want to defend me?" or, "What would an answer to that be?"

The offense here is "impolite speech." And while it's minor, one certainly wouldn't do it during an observation, that should be a clue. As to the complainer, as you know, the world is full of assholes. I'm reminded of a saying from the diplomatic arena: "The purpose of protocol is so no one can say they've been offended." In education as in any business, always watch your back (or CYA.)

--IMM

[noamnety]

38. prossibly, heh

I had probably, then thought possibly would be a better choice, and I see I got a bit of both. And now my editing time is gone.

Man oh man, there is nothing worse than a teacher who can't speak their own language. :)

[Cleita]

24. Not about school, but I have been hearing stories about

workers being reported by clients, customers or fellow workers to bosses when they express any derogatory opinion about Bush or his administration. The employers then tell the offending party not to talk about politics. However, this seems to be exclusive. Praising the Bushistas is okay. Criticize them and you get a warning and could lose your job.

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. It reminds me

of the reply of a young priest, Fr Niall O'Brien, when he was expelled from the Phillippines for being "political". "Quite the opposite, it would have been political to keep my mouth shut". He was just speaking common-sense truth like a regular guy, not calculating what repercussions he was likely to bring upon himself.

Christ said that the scribes and Pharisees would be condemned and punished all the more severely, because of their hypocrisy. The inevitable lies peddled by the far right are already like burning coals on their souls, which why they are so sensitive to be called out on them.

[bvar22]

25. Yes, Commissar.

What was the name of the "Party" apointee in the Soviet Union who lurked around to make sure nothing bad was said about the Party. I know they were even assigned to military units and Naval Ships.

Was that the Commissar??

[TR Fan]

29. If you, with your degree from Vanderbilt, had....

walked into a, say, English classroom and overheard the teacher, with possibly a degree from Duke, telling her class the Kerry and Edwards were a pair of homosexuals, would you feel the same way? The point being, it really doesn't matter where your degree is from, it's inappropriate to express personal political views in a classroom, unless the forum is specifically designed for that.

[K-W]

42. Slandering John kerry and John edwards is not an apt comparison.

and you are wrong, this is fine, talking casually about politics in front of children is fine, what isnt fine is teaching your opinion.

[YIMA]

30. Switch "Bush" with "Kerry" and we wouldn't like it

I would ventue to say that if we saw this same post on another site but the teacher was pro-Bush and the youth service teacher was pro-Kerry, the reactions would be completely different.

[K-W]

43. Not from me.

I feel no desire to stifle my opponants expression.

[mahina]

33. What is a youth service teacher anyway?

is that a "faith-based thing?"
Geez I don't like using bushspeak. But what is it?

[Rex]

46. We had the Marines out today looking for fresh meat at my H.S.

They had a pull-up bar in the CAFETERIA. If you could do 20, you get a marine t-shirt (and he gets all your info). Some of my students were extremely proud after doing 20 and getting a shirt. A shirt means a lot to some of these kids. My school is 3/4 "economically disadvantaged" you know, poor kids. I've been trying to teach them about the outside world, but alas - youthful ignorance abounds here.
I'm trying.