Chomsky gives interesting insight into Iraq situation...

[IrateCitizen]

The following excerpt is from an article appearing at www.commondreams.org today. In the greater article, Noam Chomsky deals with the future of Iraq under the US occupation. There is some I find to be probable, and some I don't agree with. However, these last two paragraphs are dead-on, I believe.

I think that (conscription) is going to be a last resort. The reason is the Vietnam experience. The Vietnam experience, I think, is the first time in the history of European imperialism that an imperial power tried to fight a colonial war with a citizen’s army. I mean the British didn’t do it, and the French had the Foreign Legion… In colonial wars, civilians are just no good at. too brutal and vicious and murderous. You just can’t take kids off the street and have them fight that kind of war. You need trained killers, like the French Foreign Legion.

In fact you could see it happening in Vietnam. To its credit, the U.S. army fell apart. It took too long, but finally the army essentially fell apart. Soldiers were on drugs, they were fragging officers, not following orders, and so on and the top brass wanted them out. If you look back at the military journals in the late Sixties, they were writing about how we gotta get this army out of here or the army’s going to collapse—much like the head of the Army reserves said two or three days ago. He said this is becoming a broken force.

It's a very interesting insight, and one I hadn't particularly thought of before. It would also explain a lot of the privatization of the military and military contractors in Iraq. Citizen armies don't have the stomach for brutal occupation and counterinsurgency campaigns. It takes real professionals to do that.

Thoughts?

[LynnTheDem]

1. I agree w Chomsky

And a lot of the pros in our army are not trained killers. 2/3rds are support troops; mechanics and engineers and cooks and so on.

Our "weekend warriors" are most definitely not trained killers.

And we are already seeing fragging and drugs and suicides etc with the troops.

bush has broken the US military; now it's just how long it'll take before the total collapse.

[bloom]

2. The other day

Someone posted that her uncle was getting 2k/day to train Iraqis as a contractor.

Our country does not have that kind of money to spend, IMO. Of course - I think we should just get out of there altogether.

Spend our money on developing alternative energy sources and such.

I don't think any of it can be justified. But I also think it's a crime to be taking the National Guard and having them over there inadequately trained and equipped.

[ladjf]

3. There is only so much sh.t you can get a soldier to put up with

before they, although trained to conform, begin to rebel against the establishment.

[IrateCitizen]

6. It's more than that...

If you're a regular Army soldier, you can put up with a lot of shit. A lot of guys and gals put up with it, because it's still seen as part of what you signed up for.

But Reserve and National Guard troops are much more like the draftees in the Vietnam era. People in the Reserve and National Guard never signed up thinking they'd be spending 12-month tours halfway around the world, only to find out they have to go BACK in another 2 years.

This is what Chomsky's pointing out, why a draft would be absolutely disastrous for the powers-that-be. Of course, the current group in power has never yet proved that they're too good at taking lessons from history....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. They do have a knack for convincing themselves of the preposterous.

Like the vision of cheering Iraqis throwing flowers at the troops and naming their kids Dubya.

[Beetwasher]

4. Well, A Draft Wouldn't Necessarily Mean You'd Have Citizen Soldiers

But it could mean conscripted citizen SUPPORT for the soldiers.

[G_j]

5. I agree

He is right on the money.
However, as we have seen, Rumsfeld and gang don't listen to the military anyway. So I think with these folks, a draft is still entirely possible.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Chomsky nails it.

A conscript army is unreliable at best. I fought against the draft in the '60s & '70s. Now I think it was a mistake. An "all volunteer" military is more reliable and can be trusted to follow orders, no matter how repugnant or suicidal.

[ultraist]

9. What are they going to do?

There is a shortage of recruitments, they are NOT meeting their quotas in the Army, Marines or any leg of the military. The troops are overextended and being back door drafted. And as a result, the force is on the verge of being broken, if it is not already (consider the torturing, the war crimes, the sick attitudes of some soliders, the suicide rates of soldiers, etc).

How are they going to sustain a military if they do not implement a draft? They are in a desperate position and do not have the luxury of considering what recruitment/enlistment methods would build the best force.

As Rumsfeld stated, "you go to war with the military you have."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Follow the other empire builders: Hire mercenaries.

Worked for the Romans, Brits, French, etc. Not that they haven't been doing it for decades already. Remember the "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan the CIA outfitted? The "Contras"? The "Hmong"? The "Anti-communist Cubans" at the Bay of Pigs? Etc, etc.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

11. There are only 2.5 Million people who are willing to fight in a war.

Also, with Iraq failing, who wants to go there now?

[The Magistrate]

12. Professor Chomskey Is Quite Correct Here, Sir

Conscript armies are not very good at this sort of thing. One historical example worth looking into that the good Professor has ommitted is the Spanish engagement in Morocco early in the twentieth century that culminated in the Rif War of the mid-twenties. The conscripts of the Peninsular Army were useless, and the casualties amonmg them brouight tremendous political unrest to Spain. The solution, formation of the professional "Tercio" to prosecute that war, not only resulted in tremendous brutality, but fashioned the instrument that became the armed might of reaction in the Spanish Civil War.

[DulceDecorum]

13. I agree,

and as the value of the dollar drops,
BushCo are going to come under pressure to pay their mercenaries in euros.
Then the fun will REALLY begin.

Friday, February 04, 2005
Even drug dealers are starting to choose the euro over the American dollar these days. That's just another in a string of problems that have fallen upon the currency that was once king. James Grant who publishes Grant's Interest Rate Observer says black markets were, until now apparently, the dollar's last international strong-hold.
http://www.newstarget.com/003587.html

For most products, losing international drug cartels and corrupt Third World dictators as customers would seem to be a desirable outcome. But these guys represent part of our long-standing and faithful base. If you think pundits are fretting about the slumping dollar now, just imagine what might happen if we start to lose the arms dealers.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2111504/

[The Magistrate]

14. One Other Practical Reason For That, Sir

Is the existance of a five hundred euro denomination. As the sheet stores roughly five times the value of a hundred dollar bill, it is clearly preferable to persons engaged in a clandestine cash enterprise: the bulk of money can be a serious obstacle, and reducing it by a fifth is worth a good deal....

[Itsthetruth]

16. Chomsky Is Way Off Base On This One

Please read the response to Chomsky's article at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3057821

[The Magistrate]

19. Professor Chomskey Is Quite Acute Here, Sir

Many old lags about this place will expect to swine performing tight formation aerobatics overhead on discovering me engaged in defending him....

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. there is this game

called Armagedon 2089... among other things it possits the creation of a "profesional" (read merc) force by 2050 and the full privatization of the US Military into General Defense... the book though written for people who play table top rpgs is worth getting just for the history of it.

They truly took Bush and PNAC and absolutely WOEST CASED IT... and they were still off...

[Itsthetruth]

17. Chomsky Article Link Here

Here's the link to Chomsky's article:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0203-22.htm

[Swamp Rat]

18. good post

:thumbsup: