What should the minimum wage really be?

[WI_DEM]

$5.15 per/hr is for the birds.
That is $206 per week (40/hr work week) or $824 per/month.

That is pitiful. What do you think a real living wage should be, implemented nationally?

[7th_Sephiroth]

1. it should really be about $10.75

florida passed a minimum wage hike to $7,50 over 2 years

[illflem]

4. Montana raised the minimum from $5.15 to $6.25 last week

Nice having a 50/50 Dem Rep state government finally.

[7th_Sephiroth]

17. yeah

the minimum wage needs to keep up with inflation, giving employers tax breaks for those who keep up with it

[ultraist]

34. The median is stagnant and income is WORSE for women

1.3 MILLION MORE IN POVERTY THANKS TO BUSH

[SoCalDem]

2. Unfortunately, it would depend on where you work and live

A "middle class" existence in Omaha would take a lot less money than New York City or San Francisco..

What it is now is pathetic unless it's for an after school teenager job :(

Ultimately, employers always chase cheap labor, so raising it geographically would just encourage more "movement" of jobs..

Textiles in the north with unions fell victim to that when the non-union south wooed the manufacturers away...but then they fell prey to the same beast when the textile manufacturers left the US completely..

Employers always was the cheapest labor force they can get, and employees always want the most money they can get.. It's a dance, but the employees are always at the mercy of the employers anyway.

[Streetdoc270]

3. 8-10 an hour

If you look at the 5.15 figure you get

206 a week (pretax) -30% FICA, SS, and Fed/State taxes you are left with only $144 a week

[Nimble_Idea]

5. $20.00/ Hr should be the Minimum wage

Damn slum lords get off our backs!

I'm with Kerry. We value work not wealth!

[HereSince1628]

9. $20/hr is $40,000 per year based on 2000 hours work...

I taught at Colleges and Universities from 1989 to 2002 and broke $40,000 per year once.

While that creates all sorts of possibilities for discussion about educators' pay ranges, the point I want to make is that a 40K minimum wage would probably have zero chance of passing.

The implications of bumping up people in various occupations that are currently paid below that would be very hard if not impossible for governments to meet. The net result would be devaluation of the relative value of people like college professors. Now most of those people realize they work in a condition of priviledged poverty, but most of those people can also currently rent home and lease a car.

[hfojvt]

67. leave it to a college teacher to make an excellent point

Also, pragmatically, you cannot raise the real wage from $5.15 to $10. It simply cannot be done. If the minimum wage was doubled, prices would have to go up too, and thus the "real" wage would not be doubled. This computer that I am typing on was made with ridiculously cheap Chinese labor. I think it is scandalous what they are paid, but do I want to pay five times more for a computer? That would reduce my own wages.

[tralfaz]

72. $20,00 an hour?

Yeah, try going to the supermarket and paying $12.00 for a gallon of milk. LOL

[CrispyQ]

6. So much depends on where you live, but

I think $12 per hour.

$12 is $25k a year. I can't imagine supporting a family of 4 on $25k a year.

[KajaC]

7. How many people (not teenagers) work only for minimum wage...

Anybody know? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Nikia]

15. Close to it around here

What I find intersting in looking for part time work is that places seem to be offering less now than when I was working for part time in 2000. In some places, lots of people are competing for the $8-$9/hour jobs where as before, almost anyone who was willing to work full time on a particuliar shift could get those jobs. Fast food and retail establishments can now get people willing to work for less than when unemployment was lower. The unemployment would be higher too if there weren't people willing to work for minimum wage and just above.

[ultraist]

42. Approx 14% of the population earn at or UNDER minimum wage

[hfojvt]

65. and what is your alternative?

do you have a sugar-daddy or sugar-momma? People have to take the jobs they can get, especially if they are male and/or childless. In 1995, there were 3,655,000 minimum wage workers, 68,8% of them were over the age of 20, that represented 4% of the over-20 workforce.

[David__77]

8. It should not be an hourly wage only.

I prefer a guaranteed minimum income for those who work. This should be tied to the poverty level. We must provide a margin above subsistance for working people.

[Negatron]

10. Indeed.

If Republicans really valued work, they would make work pay. As long as people understand that they can work 40 hours a week and still not reach the poverty line, any sensible person will continue to feel that the "work first" Republicans are full of shit. Working for below-poverty wages is a scam and a form of slavery. Nobody chooses to work in order to continue being poor. They work because it is complusory to support themselves and their families, and complusory labor is slavery. Given a real choice, nobody would choose to work for below poverty wages.

The solution is simple. Raise the minimum wage to a level that a full-time worker can support a family of four on. I believe that would be somewhere just under 10 bucks an hour at present.

When Republicans start valuing work instead of just talking bullshit about it, I might be more interested in what they have to say. Until then, I will consider them advocates of wage-slavery.

[durablend]

11. Republicans want the minimum wage gone altogether

In which case you'll see business canning the "higher paid" employees and rehiring them (or someone else) at a lower pay scale until everybody is working for .25 an hour (if that).

Any republican (or "republitarian") that says otherwise is full of shit.

[Negatron]

20. Yeah, I know. That's why they don't "value work."

What they actually value is slave labor.

[blurp]

56. If this were true, everyone would be earning $5.25/hour RIGHT NOW.

By your logic, everyone should be earning $5.25/hour.

But they're not.

Therefore, something is wrong with your logic.

The laws of supply and demand don't stop working just because we're talking about employers and employees.

[durablend]

58. Sorry...there's plenty of places that already do that

It definitely happens in retail to some degree...once you get up to a certain pay scale (in some cases $7 or so), they have a nasty habit of hiring someone else and canning the "higher paid" employee. I think both Kmart and Toys R Us have that "policy" and I imagine they're not the only ones. If you take the minimum wage out, you'll have them going progressively lower until everyone's making next to nothing.

[Speed8098]

19. Not Here

Raise the minimum wage to a level that a full-time worker can support a family of four on. I believe that would be somewhere just under 10 bucks an hour at present.

Even if you're single you can't survive here in New York on less than $10.00 per hour, much less support a family of 4.

I have a mortgage of $1700.00 a month, and my house is small.
For $250,000.00 you get a shack that needs a ton of work.

If you don't own, you can count on paying upwards of $1600.00 per month plus utilities to rent a 2 bedroom apartment and our utilities are among the highest in the country.

[Negatron]

21. Yes, the states and cities would have to supplement.

In areas where there is a high cost of living, the state and/or municipality would need to raise the minimum wage to higher levels locally. The federal floor of 9 or 10 an hour needed to beat the national poverty line is not enough for everyone, it's just a fair starting place.

[Nikia]

12. Does middle class well being depend on low wages for some?

I know that a normal rise in the minimum wage has proven not to adversly affect the economy. On the otherhand, when we talk about greatly raising it, there might be a problem. Raising it to a real living wage might be a problem. The middle class buys everything cheap to them: cheap fast food, cheap shoes, cheap clothing, cheap entertainment. Those items remaining inexpensive relies on some workers being paid low wages. Even if companies could absorb the labor costs, the formerly low wage workers would be able to buy a lot more of these cheap items and increase demand so much that these companies would raise prices.
I am more in favor of guarenteeing living necessities to all Americans. I suppose though that that subsidizes low wage employers but at least everyone is being taken care of. I am still in favor of raising the minimum wage, but I don't know if we can really raise it to a "living wage".

[stevedeshazer]

13. 110% of the average basic cost of living in your state

Obviously, it's cheaper to live in some places than others.

[G_j]

16. I read somewhere that averages to about $12/hr overall n/t

[Cleita]

27. I calculated it to that in my area, yet it still is very bare bones.

It needs to be tied to benefits like affordable access to health care. If the working class had access to social plans like free transportation, health care and child care run by the state, it would go a long way in making the system work better

[G_j]

46. isn't unfortunate that those are the very things Rs hate

Damn socialist child care!
gotta get the Gov off our backs and all...

[StephanieMarie]

14. I read somewhere that $7.50 an hour would "fix" social Security.

[Just Me]

18. The "trickle down" are going to really HATE your post!!!

Those who are spending their very best efforts in face of failure (our entrepreneurs) are going to hate you even more.

I am of the "attitude" that progressive wages are appropriate,...to give our American entreprenuers,...a chance.

Let's explore progressive wages.

Yes? :bounce:

[Negatron]

23. Who cares what voodoo economists hate?

Supply-side economics doesn't work, unless the goal is to make the rich richer, run up enormous deficits, and throw a few crumbs to the vanishing middle class. Of course, that IS the Republican goal, so for them, it works dandily. For the rest of us, about the only thing that "trickles down" is a steady stream of urine, as they piss on our heads and tell us it's raining. Of course, as long as gays don't have a marriage certificate in the nightstand, it's all well worth it. Small price to pay for "moral values," right? :eyes:

[Cleita]

22. An idea that I have tossed around in the back of my head

but that I haven't really developed and researched, but here it is. Back in the early days of the development of the West, entrepreneurs brought labor from back east to work in their businesses (think of the Harvey Girls, who worked in the restaurants of railroad stops), and the contract involved housing and food as well as a wage.

So my version would be that an employer must offer a prospective employee housing, food, clothing, transportation, a health plan and some cash, or wages adequate to cover these things for a single person with no children. I think this would make the bargain work regionally.

I know this idea needs a lot of refinement, but something needs to be done. Back when I entered the work force minimum wage was tied to the above things meaning that working a forty hour week could buy you those necessities. Otherwise, the job becomes slavery.

[Negatron]

25. Exactly, and for neo-cons, that's not a problem.

<freeper>

Wage slavery is what the poor "deserve." In America, we have Freedom™ of Opportunity™. If you can't hack it and become a millionaire, that's not the problem of Joe and Janet Bushbase. Give thanks that at least they are mercifully extending you the opportunity to serve them fries or greet them at Wal-Mart. If it weren't for the kindness of their hearts and the beneficence of the Free Market™, you wouldn't even have that much. Quit your bitching and stop looking for handouts, because welfare is only for the rich, in the form of tax cut giveaways. The problem with you socialists is that instead of punishing poverty, you want to punish success. If you're making minimum wage, consider it a God-given opportunity to better yourself and start yanking them bootstraps. If you ain't willing to do that, sit down and shut up.

</freeper>

Always know thy enemy.

[Cleita]

28. That's not only vile but illogical.

I once talked to a freeper who made minimum wage who wanted to eliminate social security. I knew his mother was on SS and I asked him what she would do? He said he would take care of her. He couldn't take care of himself with what he earned. I couldn't even argue with that lack of logic.

[Negatron]

29. On the list of things to be concerned with...

Republicans rank being logically consistent somewhere just below "memorizing all 31 flavors of Baskin-Robbins."

Concern with being decent (aka not "vile") scores slightly better, placing just below careful deliberation over leather vs. naugahyde seats in the Explorer.

[Earth_First]

24. In New York...

The NYS legislature overrode the Governor's veto of the Empire State Wage Act of 2004 which amended section 652 of the state labor law to establish the new minimum wage increases starting in January of 2005 at $6.00 per hour, increasing to $6.75 per hour in 2006, and $7.15 per hour in 2007 for all covered employees as defined in section 651 of the state labor law.

It is still a meanger existance for a family of four, however they are postive steps in the right direction which I hope other states will help the cause by following suit.

[old freak]

30. Raising minimum wages

What would happen is that when wages go up, everything else would go up as well. Milk=6.00 gal, Bread=4.00 loaf, Gas=4.00 gal, pair of Levi's= 80.00.

Increased wages without price control= inflation. You're no better off that before a wage increase.

[durablend]

31. Everything is ALREADY going up up up...

Even while wages are going down down down

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

64. First off labor is minimal as a cost for many of those items...

For one, farmers, who are on a different wage scale, or none at all, provide the milk and bread, so it simply will be more expensive because of inflation or other factors, not labor. The Levis already have a profit scale exceeding 100%, this is because the labor cost of making them is overseas slavery, at pennies on the dollar. This wouldn't be affected by a raise in the minimum wage here, so that's out as well. Not to mention, real wages have been going down since the '70s because the do not adjust for inflation, while cost of living is much more expensive now. There needs to be a correction, or we will resemble a banana republic with gated communities for 10% of the population, and tin roofs for the rest of us.

[BrotherBuzz]

26. Shhhh, raising the minumum wage would solve the Social Security thingy

No?

[ultraist]

32. It should be well above poverty level

Federal Poverty Level for a family of three is $15,670

2004 HHS Poverty Guidelines
Size of
Family Unit 48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $ 9,310 $11,630 $10,700
2 12,490 15,610 14,360
3 15,670 19,590 18,020
4 18,850 23,570 21,680
5 22,030 27,550 25,340
6 25,210 31,530 29,000
7 28,390 35,510 32,660
8 31,570 39,490 36,320
For each additional
person, add 3,180 3,980 3,660

I think the FPL needs some adjusting too. $16,000 for a family of three is NOT considered poverty?

In my state of NC, min wage is the same as the federal min wage: $5.15. Nationally, the poverty rate is about 12%.

USCB has stats on percentages of working poor (one step up from FPL) and all income stratas.

Whatever it takes to balance things out more is what is needed. When a VERY small percentage of the population makes over $150,000 while a LARGE percentage makes under $50,000, something is askew.

[tralfaz]

73. So now I would have

to pay one employee $7000.00 more a year than another employee just because they have 2 more children. I can see where this is going---Question during the interview-Are you married? Answer Yes Next QuestionYou don't have any children do you because i can't afford to hire you if you do. Yeah, that would work.

[Donailin]

33. at least $9.00

[ultraist]

35. $9 per hour is about $18,000 a year, FPL for a family of four

I think it should be at least $12 per hour so that a family of three is able to survive above poverty with one income earner working full time. Think about single mothers who don't receive child support.

[henrik larssonisking]

36. problem is, if you increase the minimum wage

to $12 an hour, then everybody who at this moment makes $12 an hour is suddenly gonna be at the bottom of the scale again, personally if the minimum wage comes anywhere near what i earn, my boss is going to have to pay me an equivalent increase, the products price will rise, and the value of your wages drops.

[ultraist]

37. So what is the solution to stopping the increase in poverty?

http://www.lcurve.org/
The L Curve of Income Distribution
"The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%."

Statistics from USCB
Households by Total Money Income, Race, and Hispanic Origin of Householder: 2003
(Income in 2003 CPI-U-RS adjusted dollars. Households as of March of the following year)
Race and Hispanic origin of householder and year Number
(thousands)
Percent distribution Median income
(dollars)
Mean income
(dollars)
Total
Under $5,000 3.4%
$5,000 to $9,999 5.6% of the population
$10,000 to $14,999 6.9%
$15,000 to $24,999 13.1%
$25,000 to $34,999 11.9%
$35,000 to $49,999 15.0%
$50,000 to $74,999 18.0%
$75,000 to $99,999 11.0%

84.9% of the population earns UNDER $100,000.

Approximately 8% earn $100,000 to $126,525.Only 6% earn over $126,525 with only 1% earning over $285,000

In 2002, taxpayers reporting adjusted gross income of $126,525 ranked among the nation's top 5 percent of earners, and $285,424 was necessary to break into the top 1 percent.

[Donailin]

45. Affordable higher education, free health care, but mostly

and end to the corporate grip on America that creates the disparity of wealth.

I'm all for a level playing field, but folks need to realize the even bigger picture. This country did not earn its wealth; it was stolen first from the indigenous people who occupied this land and it was created on the backs of slaves, and it is now attained by exploitation of developing nations. You cannot have great wealth, and $19000 a year is great wealth compared to the poorest nation in out hemisphere -- Haiti -- where the average anuual income is $200, and not have massive poverty elsewhere.
For every action, there is an *opposite* and *equal* reaction.

[vetwife]

38. it is a catch 22

I think it was designed to be that way. Crazy huh?
You may get a dollar more on the hour but you will pay 50 cents more for bread and 8 dollars more for shoes.

I think that a person who runs a traffic light and earns 80.00 and hr should be charged on a scale that would make him rmember to stop.
the person making 8.00 and hour is gonna feel that hit for running the light. Sliding scale of sorts. Not to punish high wage earners, (more power to them) I believe in Capitolism. I think IMO it is equal protection. The lower wage earner may have to go to jail for the same crime the higher wage earner committed.
No easy answers here.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

40. Another catch-22.

The super rich are often chauffeured around. Is the cost of the ticket gauged by the chauffeur's wage or Bill and Melinda in back?

[Solon]

66. There is no Catch 22...

Its a BS argument, especially in regards to food, because farmers are on a different wage scale, already earn well above minimum wage, or minimum wage doesn't apply to them anyways. This excludes illegal sharcroppers making well below minimum wage BTW. Also, shoes are already overpriced in most cases, yes those Nike's that cost 50 bucks were more than likely made in the exact same factory as those no name shoes bought at Payless for 10 bucks, with the same slaves making both, oddly enough. Its called price gouging, and you buy a name, not the product, in most of those cases, especially in regards to clothing and small consumer goods. So at worst, companies lose 10% of their profit margin, boo fucking hoo, if they don't like, and try to make up for it by more price gouging, then the Government can step in and set prices for the goods. I'm sick of this argument, look at Wal-Mart as an example, they make a killing by price gouging, because they treat their workers like shit, don't pay them enough, and sell shit worth 2 dollars for 20 dollars and trick us into thinking its a deal. Give me a break!

[vetwife]

71. Oh Really

Tell me this...If it isn't a catch 22 are you going to every small business and tell Mom and Pop not to raise their prices. I agree we are overcharged and we have slave labor and fair wages is the answer but you are living in a Fairytale if you think the average small business won't HAVE to raise their consumer goods to keep up.
Again I say it is a catch 22. A cap on raising prices would be a good start but that is not going to happen.

[Donailin]

44. exactly. I would have to raise my rates for customers

which in turn may cause them to turn to immigrant workers who will work under the table for much less. I have a problem with this, obviously.

[lostinacause]

50. Assuming...

Assuming the money supply is set to keep a constant level of unemployment.

[Donailin]

43. I'm a single mother of three who has to chase child support down

so, I guess I'm qualified to disagree?

I started off making ten an hour, and worked my way to self employment where I now make $25 - $35 an hour. I work my ass off. When I hire someone, I pay them $10 per hour, which is well above and beyond minimum wage. If they were to demostrate capability above that of a worker with no experience and kept my clients happy and generated more business, then it would be refelcted in their pay increase.

A hike to $9.00 an hour is reasonable, since most of these jobs can be done with little or no education.

[durablend]

61. But the problem these days...

You say you actually pay them more if they demonstrate that they're worth more...many places don't give a rats ass and treat employees as liabilities no matter what they contribute (or how much ability above what's expected they demonstrate).

[Donailin]

69. and that's why

I'm all for organized labor

[Lizzie Borden]

39. $20.00 per hr.

[ultraist]

41. $13.00 per hour would put min wage earners at 60% of the median income

Some theorists espouse that minimum wage should be 60% of the median income. $27,000 is 60% of the median. That would put minimum wage at $13 per hour. I had earlier suggested $12 but I change that to $13.00

[UdoKier]

47. It should be regional.

It should be based on what it costs to rent a studio apartment and buy food/utilities, etc. for one person in that area. That amount is drastically different in NY or SF than it is in Des Moines.

I'm proud to say that the minimum wage here in SF has been raised to $8.50/hr.

[lostinacause]

51. The problem with a regional minimum wage is

that it allows for people to move their opperations elsewhere if the difference is too drastic.

[PowerToThePeople]

52. well

if enough move to lower cost areas, more people will move there to occupy the jobs, put more burden on housing, ect. and raise the cost of living of that area. So the "minimum wage" would need to go up there to make up for this.

[lostinacause]

63. so ???

Increasing the minimum wage would create unemployment in the region that it is in and the benefit received would be less then that if it was national. Equality programs generally work better when done over a larger area.

[UdoKier]

55. They do that anyway.

The cost of doing business in SF or NY is already higher, but there are other mitigating factors.

$6/hr. 40 hrs a week can get you a minimal apartment still in many towns. In SF, it won't even get you a room in the worst dump hotels in the Tenderloin.

[lostinacause]

48. I'm not sure 5.15 is too low

I'm not sure if the minimum wage is an effective means to pursue equality up to a "living wage" level. As with most programs the benefit by raising the minimum wage by a given amount is decreasing and the costs increase. Going to a high level would result in unemployment and as a result welfare increases. Other means that increase productivity, such as education programs and worker training, would be better tools to increase social welfare.

[G_j]

54. why should anyone working full time

not be able meet the minimum requirements of survival?

[lostinacause]

62. If you read my post you would see that

I was not stating that no equality measures should be taken there are just points that increasing the minimum wage does is a very (economically) costly means of pursuing equality.

[PowerToThePeople]

49. Should be regional

Enough to pay rent on studio apt., food, transportation to work (public or other), Utilities, basic insurance needs, and some entertainment or other "enjoyable" activity. I would say, in my region, that take-home pay of about $1500 per month would do that. so 14-15 per hour. And I live in one of the lowest cost of living areas of the country..

Edit- for the high school student still living with parents it should be much lower. But minimun wage shouldn't realy be an issue. Employers should just pay this "living wage" voluntarily to their employees, but try talking the Wal-Marts of the world into it...

damn I spell bad late at night..bah, ok all the time :-)

[idlisambar]

53. $9-10

gradually raised over the course of 4 years and indexed to inflation thereafter.

[rman]

57. not a specific amount of dollars; it should provide enough buying power...

so that people earning a minimum wage can afford the essential necessities and comforts of life.

how much exactly that is of course depends on how much those things cost.

[thedailyshow]

59. It should be $10 to $12 dollars per hour

For a real living wage of 2,000 per month.

[leftofthedial]

68. $15.00 per hour minimum

That's $30,000 a year.

Maximum wage should be $300,000 a year.

Any non-reinvested income, wages or otherwise, over $300,000 a year should be taxed at 100%.

[tralfaz]

74. So now we are

going to say that you can't make anything over $300k. Don't get me wrong, I raise a family of 4 on $30k per year, but I don't see how we can put a ceiling on earnings. Do you?

[leftofthedial]

78. Murka is a "democracy" we can do whatever we want.

Tax everything over $300K at 100%

[Pork Chop]

70. I don't know if it can be raised effectively

If it is raised, more companies will begin outsourcing their jobs. Also, if it is raised the prices of products will go up, effecting all of us.

[Conservativesux]

75. And when they price themselves out of the US market, then what?

[immoderate]

76. anyone who does honest work should be payed enoughto live on.

Gotta be at least $10/hour.

--IMM

[sweetheart]

77. Based on a basket of goods

1000 nominal housing rent for an apartment/flat/mortgage
100 nominal housing tax, council tax, federal tax, sales tax
200 nominal food
400 health insurance/medical
100 commute (car/train/aircraft/bus/taxi)
100 insurance
50 electricity
100 heating
400 childcare
10 postage
50 finance charges
----
2500 total per month * 12 months == 30,000 is the minimum wage salary
That is 15 dollars per hour for a parent minimum income to survive,
by the standards the society expects. Real transport costs can be
higher, leaving out the occasional parking ticket and DU contribution.

All these things bear on every household with a job and a kid. Get rid
of the chldcare for no kids/no dogs. This presumes no music, no TV,
and no extra expenditure, no options. This is the minimum wage, in my
thinking. The wage, as it stands, is not enough to live without other
income support, likely 2 jobs... The housing component of the basket
can very quite a bit depending on the region.

[noonwitch]

79. $7 an hour for those under 18, more for over 18

Teenagers need to return to the fast food industry. It's no longer fast, now that adults are working there.

People over 18 need to make a living wage, however.

[American Tragedy]

80. I only wonder what would happen to really small businesses

I think everybody here is focused upon bloated, stingy corporations that are raping the workforce. Yet raising the minimum wage dramatically would also impact consumer prices for independent businesses and severely limit their ability to support employees or even operate at all.

Don't flame me, please, I work for minimum wage and would love to see it raised, but the issue is fairly complicated.

[vetwife]

81. thats what I said

and some wanted to beat me up......we agree.