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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 03:49 PM
Original message
AL Martin Speaks
He reiterated his claim that Karl Rove is;

Karl Heinz von Roverer

Grandson of Gaultier of Mecklenburg 1939-1945
The role was the political liasion officer
to the Mecklenburg regional office of the Gestapo

The records are in Bahn Germany, assumably in some nazi archives that are available to public view.

Any takers? Someone did some excellent research recently. WHo is right here?

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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Left Radio?
Was this the interview on Left Radio? I was hoping someone listened to that.....

Did he just reiterate his statements re: the Wilson Affair?

Any further elaboration on the "liquidation of 70 assets overseas?"
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bwahahahahahaha!!!
Ugh. This conspiracy crap is, well, crap. As I've said before, there are enough facts out there to keep Rove & Co. in jail for a very long time, without bringing in half-baked conspiracy theories.


And, even if his grandaddy was a Nazi, so effing what? Judge the man, not the family. My grandaddy was a right-wing Republican Army officer who worked for G2 and killed communists in Austria and Hungary during the Cold War. Does that make me a bad person?

Never mind.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. even if its not true,
i've decided not to vote for rove, i mean bush.
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes. We understand.
Your point is well understood. However, in this particular case, the "conspiracy crap" is well-mixed with truth, combined with an information vacuum. Martin has mixed the Nazi-father assertions with the very real Wilson investigation.

So I am wondering if Al Martin backed-up his claims (specifically regarding the Wilson Affair), or if he just repeated what he said in his admittedly shady article.

While there may be plenty of facts that would put Rove in jail, the fact that Wilson implicated him in outing a CIA agent is the top contender at this point.

Hence my interest.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree, totally.
His leaking of Wilsons' wife's CIA job to Bob Novak is treasonous and should be prosecuted. Martin goes further. He asserts that Rove's leak killed 70 CIA operatives. That seems far-fetched, however. My own personal opinion is that we should stay far, far away from Mr. Martin. There are other, more reliable sources on this, I would guess.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. If the records are...
in Bahn (sic) Germany, assumably (sic) in some nazi archives that are available to public view. Then why is Al Martin the only one to mention this? The Germans f*cking hate Bush and Rove. If they were indeed on display, Der Spiegel and Der Stern would be all over this.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. ANy DUer in Bahn who can pursue this?
How did martin get this info if it is available to noone else?

Why is there no record of any Gaultier of Mecklenburg of the name Martin claims?

Why is there a record of a Gaultier of Mecklenburg who is someone else?

They were extremely dismissive of my criticism, because I couldn;t remember Gaultier, I said Baron. So what? The point is I let Martin know that we know he lied and Troupiano know that we aren't going to support his half baked crap.

Troupiano is an opportunist, a weight loss guru, and someone who consistently puts bad information on his show and passes it of as genuine. What is his motive?
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. My questions, exactly.
Edited on Tue Sep-09-03 04:38 PM by FlashHarry
(It's Bonn, by the way, not Bahn, which means course.)
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Al Martin got caught lying on this one
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. al martin is useless
i challenged him last year on Mike Malloy's show and he is a lying sack of shite
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. the bad part is he keeps lying
he had the opportunity to come clean. We gave him the chance. He chose to keep lying. Troupiano supported him.

What are the motives here people? Are liars going to help the cause? or is this a Bush disinformation tactic?

I think Troupiano's purpose is the same as Martin - to mix fact with fiction thereby discrediting the fact.

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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Liar
First off I am not a freeper... But this Rove story Al Martin published about a Nazi connection to Karl Rove followed by seemed pretty far out there. For a guy who claims on his own site that "Al Martin is also considered to be America's foremost whistle-blower on government and military fraud." and charges 5000 bucks to be a keynote speaker.


His work often lacks sources so I thought I would investigate his article on Rove and the leak on Ambassador Joseph Wilson's wife. I am pretty sure this is disinformation which, though helpful to the 'cause' I find being lied to by one of our own distasteful. So, as a former journalist, I took it upon myself to do a little investigation myself.

The original story from his site which is all over the net is at http://almartinraw.com/public/column106.html

-------------------------------------

Quote #1 from Al Martin's article.

"According to reliable sources, as well as our own Al Martin Raw.com investigation, Karl Rove is, in fact, the grandson of Karl Heinz Roverer, the gauleiter of Mecklenburg, who was also a partner and senior engineer of Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbüro AG. They built Birchenau (sic), the concentration camp in Nazi Germany."

------------------------------

Not that I am sticking up for Rove but Al Martin, if he did his research right would find the "gauleiter" of "Mecklenburg" was not Roverer... In fact there is no Karl Heinz Roverer or Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbüro AG that built Birkenau in the entire databases of at least four major holocaust archives I went through such as
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://www.remember.org/
http://www.nizkor.org/
http://www.mazal.org/Default.htm

I also double checked here (http://remember.org/educate/companies.html) to see if Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurbüro AG would show up but nothing.

And the fact is, the Gauleiter of Mecklenburg
was a guy named Friedrich Hildebrandt (http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/nsdap-gau-mecklenburg.htm)

Mecklenburg Gauleiter List

Friedrich Hildebrandt (1925 - 1930)
? Albrecht (1930 - 1931)
Friedrich Hildebrandt (1931 - 1945)

--------------------------------

Funny enough Karl Röver was the gauleiter of Weser-Ems from 1929-1942. (http://www.skalman.nu/tredje-riket/r.htm#Rover,Karl)(http://www.skalman.nu/tredje-riket/r.htm)

Which is almost the same name as Karl Rove but not the one given in the article. Not sure if Al Martin got lazy or if this is the right guy? Karl Rover also tried to stop the war and died under mysterious circumstances.
(http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/NSDAP/Gauleiter_R-Z.html)

On the night of May 13, 1942, Röver startled the party hierarchy when he announced that he was going to see the Führer on the next day and then proceed to meet Winston Churchill, in order to make peace. Coming virtually on the first anniversary of Rudolf Hess' flight to Scotland, the matter was immediately brought to Martin Bormann's attention. An SS physician diagnosed the last stages of syphilis in Roever, and he was rushed to an isolated area. Two agents were sent by Bormann to examine Röver, and they reported on May 15 that the sick man had succumbed to heart failure. The whole matter was hushed up and soon forgotten in the course of the war."
(Excerpted from Charles Hamilton's Leaders and Personalities of the Third Reich, R. James Bender Publishing, 1984; story also found in Karl Höffkes, Hitlers Politische Generale, Grabert-Verlag, 1986/1997

--------------------------------

So it seems that if there were a Nazi in the family so to speak, he was one who tried to end the war and most likely was murdered by Hitler for even suggesting it. And he was not really one of the bad guys. He certainly had no engineering company and was not involved in camp construction....

The other thing that shoots down this article is the fact that Karl Rove's grandfather worked on a highway road crew during the Great Depression not building gas chambers, according to a Boston Globe article from 2001. (scroll down)

http://www.boston.com/globe/magazine/2000/7-23/featurestory1.shtml


Turn out his real father is is not even Louis Rove... as Karl Rove told the New Yorker (http://bnfp.org/neighborhood/Lemann_Rove_NYM.htm)

But when I asked Rove about it he said the real story is that he was, as it were, half-adopted. I asked him if he'd ever found out who his real father is, and he said that he had, but didn't meet him until many years later, when he was in his forties. He got in touch with the man, arranged to visit him, and was greeted with a chilly reception. Rove spoke of his adoptive father in a tone of fierce admiration, love, and loyalty, for, as he put it, "how selfless his love had been," as shown by his willingness to play, persuasively, the part of a blood parent for two decades. The bond between Rove and his adoptive father became even more important, no doubt, after Rove's mother committed suicide, in Reno, Nevada, in 1981.

-------------------------------

I would like to know the sources for the claim that "As a consequence of this leak, her entire team of overseas assets were liquidated." This statement was further expanded to set a number:
"So Karl Rove has now been identified as the leaker responsible for the deaths of more than 70 CIA assets overseas."

I object to the word assets for people. So maybe they weren't CIA agents or operatives, maybe they were contacts, informers, collaboraters. Why no word then, in the foreign press? Assets is a word used to refer to things, not people.

This is a highly inflammatory claim with nothing to support it. I think this is an important story, but it is seriously weakened by this unsupported contention and subsequent debunking of information.

What do you think?
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Another thing, 'von' means 'from' or 'of.'
Edited on Tue Sep-09-03 04:53 PM by FlashHarry
A common occurrence in old European names ('van' in Dutch, 'of' in English, though it disappeared over the course of many centuries). It allowed a person or family to be differentiated by where they came from.

If his last name was indeed 'von Roverer,' that would indicate his family came from the town or place of 'Roverer.' This is all fine and dandy, except there is no town or place of that name--never was. In fact, the only Google reference I could find on a German site (all the others were Al Martin-related) was to a Land-Roverer.

This is not surprising. The suffix 'er' in German is much the same as it is in English (which is Germanic in origin). It means 'one who does something,' as in Jaeger (hunter) or Bauer (farmer) or Verfasser (author/writer). So, a 'roverer' would be 'someone who 'roves'--whatever that means in German.
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