I fell short as a citizen today (child abuse scenario)

[American liberal]

I was in Target shopping for a new coffee maker this afternoon. It was pretty busy in the main aisle. At that moment, I was the only one in the coffee maker aisle, which was a right-angle away from the main floor. I could hear the lull of the crowd to my right as moms and dads and kids and young couples went this way and that about their Sunday afternoon business. Then, over the lull, maybe about 20 feet from where I stood, I heard a man's voice begin to sound exasperated. "Let's get out of here," he said.

I wasn't really paying attention, as I was trying to choose btw. a Mr. Coffee and a Bunn. "No," I heard a little boy's voice. Typical overstimulated child who had too much sugar and not enough sleep, I thought to myself. Then, all of a sudden I heard the man raise his voice. I think everyone in that part of the store started paying attention.

"What's the matter with you?!" he yelled. Then I heard a loud *smack*! Then the sound of the boy crying--loudly. The guy was calling the approx. 6-year-old, overweight boy names like "baby" and "sissy," and told him to quit crying--I mean this guy was yelling!!!

And I froze in indecision. My insticts told me to go advocate for the child, to intervene--but I didn't. I did walk out into the main aisle. By that time, the man had picked up the boy and was yelling in earnest: "If you're going to act like a baby, I'm going to treat you like one," and began hauling the child down the main aisle toward the exit door, with a meek-looking woman fluttering along behind them. People standing aghast and unsure simply parted the way.

I started to follow the trio, with the intention of intervening, but the man was quickly outpacing me in his rage. He had set the distraught little boy down by that point and was almost dragging him along by his coat collar. I watched all the other customers in my vicinity (some of whom were obviously eyewitness to the abuse), and they were all looking a little dazed and shell-shocked and looking at one another as if to say, did you see that? and there was another boy grinning sheepishly as he peeked out from behind his mother, looking as if he wasn't sure whether it was safe to come out. And nobody, out of at least 100 people who heard or watched what had just happened--including me--did or said a thing to help that boy as he was hit, carried, then dragged out of the store.

I've heard of such things happening. Sociologists and psychologists have been studying such phenomenon for decades. But I really thought I was the type of person who would stand up to someone like that when witness to child abuse.

I'm afraid I fell short as a citizen today. I learned that I can be as fearful and imperfect as the next fellow. All I can think about is that little boy who doesn't know that it's not OK for grownups to treat him like that. All I can think is that he didn't want to go home 'cause he will probably get the shit kicked out of him. I apologize that I am not a better citizen.

Peace,
AL

[Mikimouse]

1. In Situations such as the one you describe...

we take our 'action' cues from the others around us. Had someone started to intervene, it is very likely that others would have followed suit. The behavior is nicely explained by Emergent Norm Theory.

[Skittles]

2. I would have intervened without hesitation

and I very often do. Does it always do any good? Seemingly not, but I think it is important to let the child know it's not him who has the BEHAVIOR PROBLEM.

[American liberal]

6. I totally agree with you skittles

If I am ever in a situation like that again, I hope to have the chutzpah to stand up to the bully.

[Skittles]

8. it's scary

you wonder sometimes if you're just pissing the thug off more and the child will pay for it later. :(

[ultraist]

11. Get their tag number and report them to Child Protective Services

You are correct, sometimes they do take it out on the kid more and the fact is, it can be very dangerous if it's a male abuser. I'm less hesitant to confront female abusers in public places though. They usually just shoot you a dirty look and stop.

IF you ever believe that a child is experiencing ongoing abuse, you have a duty by law to report it to CPS!!! Children can end up dead because people turn a blind eye.

When I say abuse, I don't mean what some consider abuse. Spanking is not, by law, in most states abuse. Go to your county Social Services site, CPS section and read up on the legal definition of abuse and what to look for. Over reporting is not good either.

[frankly_fedup2]

58. That was a rather bad scene; however, once you bring CPS into

a family's life, without really knowing everything that is going on, you have put that family into a system that can change that family's life. They could take the child and any other children and put them in foster care.

I only bring this up because there was a case in our local paper a long time ago about a minister and his family. I'll try to be brief.

The story was something like the youngest daughter (they had 2 girls) wanted to go out and the mother had told her she could not do what she wanted to do. The mother claimed the daughter then slapped her (the mother) in the face. The father, being a minister, was home working. When he saw his daughter hit her mother, he grabbed her (pretty rough as she had some mild bruising), and slapped her in her face (kind of like a front slap, then he backhanded her.)

The preacher and his wife were home the next day, and there was a Social Worker from CPS. She stated their daughter went to her guidance counselor and told the counselor that her father abused her "constantly". The lady with CPS claimed she had to check it out since the girl did have some bruising on her arm. The minister told her why she had the bruises on her arm and about what had happened. Then the Social Worker asked them if they had anymore children. They told them they had another daughter. The Social Worker then left and they thought things were settled. They never abused their children. A couple hours later, the social worker returned with two policemen. She told the parents that CPS had decided to remove the girls from the home and she had come to get some of their clothing. By the time this article was in our local paper, the two girls had been in foster care (different homes) for more than a year. The oldest girl told CPS that she added to her story because she was angry with her father and that he really never abused her or her sister. As a matter of fact, that was the first time he had ever hit her. Well, they did not believe her then.

Due to this one incident, a family had been torn apart because a teenager didn't get her way. The father and mother had been to court a couple of times trying to get their children back; however, CPS would advise the judge on what they thought was best for the girls, and moving back home was not one of them (even though the girls wanted to go home as well as the parents wanting them to come home)

You do not want to involve any government agency unless you know the full story. You could be ripping a family apart over a one-time incident.

It's a hard decision to make. I believe in some states you can even report anonymously. Can you imagine someone that didn't like you for one reason or another reporting (anonymously) a false claim of you abusing your child? I think that if someone feels they should file a complaint with CPS, they should have to reveal their identity as well. Some people are very vindictive and could use this as a way of getting back at someone, or just because they don't like you for some reason or another. I think the anonymous reporting should not be allowed (IMO)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

62. You bring up an excellent point. n/t

[phylny]

71. It is *such* a difficult decision to make.

I'm a mandatory reporter, which means that I HAVE to report suspected abuse, otherwise I'll lose my license to practice and lose my job. I've only had to do this twice, but each time, the situation was neither clear cut, nor easy.

The first time, I was working in a middle school and one of the kids I saw broke down crying in the hallway and said her mom "beats" her. I informed our social worker, who interviewed her and determined that nothing was going on. I wasn't so sure, but due to school protocol, I'd done my job.

The second time, the sister of a child I see told me in broken English that her father "tried to" cut her. Damn. So, I call CPS, and I give them the story, and the women puts me on hold and comes back with more questions from the supervisor. Nope, no signs of abuse, child is well-fed, clean, clothed, no marks on her, etc. They don't think there are enough grounds to investigate.

There was one more case where I waffled back and forth - no physical abuse, but other things, and where do you draw the line?

In any event, you always think, "Am I going to make this kid's life worse by reporting? Am I going to throw this family into turmoil?"

It's a very difficult thing.

Just so everyone knows, "abuse" criteria varies. In New York State, a parent does have the right to hit their child. Spanking or hitting may not be construed as abuse by the authorities.

[DoNotRefill]

50. That's very true...

Often child abusers abuse children as a result of not being able to abuse the people they'd like to abuse.

The BEST solution I've found is to follow at a distance, see what car they get into, take the tag number down, and then call the police and social services and tell them what happened.

[purduejake]

3. Maybe Target security failed?

A child was assaulted and dragged out of the store and they let it happen. It's not really your job to put yourself in a position for a beating, although I'd probably do it. I'm not blaming you at all... I wasn't there and I would have been a little freaked out as well, but I am from Indiana so I am used to seeing that stuff and having road-ragers trying to assault me all the time, lol.

[Jamastiene]

4. Believe it or not...

Intervening might have been dangerous for you yourself to do. I commend you for having the compassion to care about the situation. You shouldn't feel guilty for not knowing what to do. If you see something like that again, I would suggest contacting the police or security to step in and do something about it. The guy obviously thinks violence is ok. In that case, you should definitely let someone else (the police), who is trained to deal with those people, deal with it. At least you saw abuse for what it is, bad. Please don't feel guilty or that you aren't a good citizen.

[ultraist]

5. You have to be careful though, if you do confront it

I confronted a man once who was smacking the shit out of a three year old in a store and he started raging on me saying things like, "do you pay for his food? Do you take care of him?" He was nearly lunging towards me. This scared the kid even more.

Sometimes you cannot confront the person and you also have to bear in mind, that it is not always appropriate to intervene in front of the child. Every situation is different.

NOW, if the person is really wailing on the kid, get the management or call the police on your cell. I would jump in though if the child was going to be injured.

Don't be so hard on yourself. The fact is, if the kid does not have bruises or another sign of neglect that can be proven, nothing can be done.

It's sad, I know, that's why I majored in SW and worked for a short time at CPS because I feel so strongly about children's rights. The investigative unit had to be extremely careful, these can be very dangerous situations. (I worked in family preservation with abused kids who were still with their families).

Now go make a donation to a Boys and Girls Club to make up for tonight! Kidding. I don't think you could have done much in that situation.

[undergroundpanther]

7. Don't feel bad

Just take a risk next time.

I stood around once when a kid got hit.I vowed to NEVER be a bystander again.

When you bystand it's like you are waiting for another person to "do something" But the bystander phenomena happens because no one wants to be responsible for being the one to initate changes.

Making changes takes a decision to risk

This bystander phenomena is the bullies best freind.

If more people would understand the bystander enchantment,and act on a risk and do the right thing maybe abuse would not be such a rampant problem in day to day life. It has shown in those studies you mention 1 intervention can change everything.ONEIntervention of one bystander standing up for a victim in a bully environment in school cut 98%of bully incidents that year.

Here is my account of when I chose to not bystand anymore it's a deep thought I had on the incident.

http://web.pitas.com/page6/upits101102.html

[ultraist]

12. Bully situations have different dynamics

Confronting a parent is different than a bully situation. Sometimes it's better not to confront them (as long as the child is not getting injured) and call it in later.

Child abusers are not going to just stop abusing because they were embarrassed once by a stranger. It's an illness that needs to be treated.

[Liberty Belle]

15. Wow. I'm glad you stopped him. That took guts.

[American liberal]

16. good for you, panther...

I suppose that was the basis for my hesitation: what if the wacko started going off on me? I am not a fighter. I am an overweight, middle-aged woman with a conscience. Nevertheless, I can't afford to be a bystander. None of us can, really. I truly admire your ability to act with integrity in that situation. Go on!
Peace,
AL

[H2O Man]

64. I disagree.

Feel bad. You failed an abused kid.

[imenja]

9. if you encounter a similar solution

perhaps it would be best to try to identify the man, get his license plate number if possible and report him to authorities. It might have been dangerous for you to personally intervene. I sympathize with your dilemma. It's a difficult situation to be in.

[blonndee]

10. This is what a lot of RW fundies are advocating as "manly" behavior for

dads. Maybe this guy isn't part of that, but the RWers are coming out more and more with "manhood" seminars for the men and "submissive wife" seminars for the ladies. Back to the good old days, friends.

BTW, this sounds an awful lot like what "Dr." Dobson advocates for parent/child relationships.

[Pithlet]

68. I think there is a backlash

against progressive parenting perpetuated by the right, though it isn't just people on the right who swallow that garbage. I've seen normally progressive people with the mistaken impression that failing to spank automatically equals spoiled child, and that parents are too easy on their children these days. I've seen more than one rant by someone who sees two seconds of a tired child in a grocery store, and automatically judges that parent as too lenient. I cringe whenever anyone says crap like that.

I think the trend back wards is a frightening thing. Child abuse has always been around, and probably always will be. This "tough parenting" bullshit won't help.

[Liberty Belle]

13. I've found the best way to diffuse this sort of thing is

to step in and politely say, "It looks like you're having a really bad day," to the parent, then stoop to the child's level and start distracting the child. "Who's on your shirt? Can you tell me the name of that cartoon character? Is he your favorite?" or "Wow, you've got a loud voice! Now I'll bet you can't beat me in a quiet contest. Shhhhhhhhhhh."

Once the child stops throwing a tantrum, hopefully the parent will feel a big chagrined and get their act together.

This also gives you a moment to take a closer look at the kid. Of course if you see bruises, you can alert store security or call the cops.

Most often, though, it's simply a parent who's lost their temper in a moment of weakness. Teaching them a better strategy for dealing with an out-of-control child is a kindness to them both.

[American liberal]

18. Thanks, Belle...

That's EXACTLY what I will do if presented (I pray not) with a similar scenario in the future. Beautiful suggestion.

[ultraist]

21. Modeling good parenting can help diffuse the situation

But believe me, it wont cure the abuser seeing it once. I can't stress enough if someone, (after they read their state laws) really believes a child is being abused, they should report it to CPS. Child abusers require quite a lot of treatment to curtail their behavior.

[Liberty Belle]

43. I agree. But most often, you don't see actual hitting--

Just someone screaming at the poor kid. Even abusive parents usually know better than to hit the child in front of witnesses.
I've used the diffusion technique in these sorts of cases, and once when a parent had a hand up as if ready to strike, but never once it had actually come to blows.

[Liberty Belle]

44. I agree. But most often, you don't see actual hitting--

Just someone screaming at the poor kid. Even abusive parents usually know better than to hit the child in front of witnesses.
I've used the diffusion technique in these sorts of cases, and once when a parent had a hand up as if ready to strike, but never once it had actually come to blows.

[gardenista]

23. I truly don't think I could pull that off.

I think you have to be a very special person to be able to step in that way. Are you an experienced mom or grandmother? This is definitely grandmother territory!

[Liberty Belle]

47. I have two kids, both teens now.

My son's a great kid, but he was a handful when he was little. A major tantrum thrower, often. I lost it with him, just once, and spanked him in public because he threw a tantrum in a store and refused to get up when told it was time to leave. My youngest was a newborn, and there was no way I could carry the 2-year-old and the baby at the same time. I'd just hurt my back badly in a car accident and the stroller was damaged, plus I had milk starting to leak and a baby ready to nurse, and was essentially at wit's end.

Never hit him again, but I'm glad nobody called CPS on me.

So I have a little bit of empathy for a parent being pushed to the liimit by a strong-willed child. Of course hitting and yelling are wrong, but sometimes it's tough to distinguish between a truly abusive parent and one who has just been pushed a bit too far on a bad day.

I've found that actually, some parents appreciate the "help" when you step in and calm down a cranky child. If it's the first time junior has pulled this sort of stunt, a new parent may just not know how to handle it.

Of course, if someone is really over the top, you'd want to call the cops or store security. But I wouldn't ignore this sort of situation.

[Midlodemocrat]

52. I have done the same in similar situations

but I was also in a situation once where the father did become enraged at me. I called security immediately and now I carry pepper spray, mainly because I truly believe that I would use it before I allowed a child to be beaten.

I saw a lot of child abuse when I was a practicing counselor, and it does enrage me.

However, FWIW, I think sometimes a situation is so shocking that we are shocked into doing nothing. The OP certainly didn't expect that behavior to take place in Target fer cryin out loud.

[NashVegas]

56. Killing with Kindness

Is one of the most effective tools in the human cannon. I wish more people (myself) were better practicioners.

[gardenista]

14. Please don't be too hard on yourself.

Sometimes the shock and disbelief we experience when facing a situation like that, especially if it's the first time we've seen it, is very powerful.

Also, think about the possible scenario had you confronted the man. You could have been injured yourself. However, maybe it would be a good idea to come up with a strategy for handling the situation in the future if something similar happens.

I'm just thinking out loud, but maybe the thing to do is quietly follow them out of the store and get a license plate? The store also probably has parking lot surveillance, and if the abuse continued into the parking lot, it may be on tape. You may even still have an opportunity to make a complaint and ask for an investigation, if you think there is good evidence on tape.

Your post hit close to home because I experienced a similar event a few years ago. The people who lived directly behind us were negligent parents, leaving their very, very young children outside until very late into the night. One day, I came out to find the 2 year old boy standing on a second-floor balcony, locked out of the house. He was crying uncontrollably, and beginning to try and climb up over the railing.

I had a friend over, and she talked to him, and tried to calm him down and keep him from going over the railing, as I ran around the block to the front door of the neighbor's house. The mother answered the door and looked like I had woken her up. When I told her that her toddler was locked outside on a balcony, she immediately began making excuses. Any normal mother would RUN UPSTAIRS AND MAKE HER CHILD SAFE! When I pointed that out, I also said, "Next time I call the police, rather than coming over here".

The thing I kick myself over is NOT calling the police that day. We moved soon after, but when I told my other neighbor, an EMT about it, and agonized about not calling the cops, he said, "Well, maybe somebody else will do that." I think he did. He has seen the results when these kinds of things spin out of control.

To this day, I regret not doing what I should have done. But I feel pretty confident that next time, if there is a next time, I will take action.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

19. What's not child abuse?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

25. Oh really

What that man did was abusive. Please educate yourself on appropriate parenting skills. Now whether or not CPS would have opened a case based on that one situation is another matter and laws vary from state to state.

There are more humane and effective ways to discipline a child than screaming, dragging, and hitting. Would you treat an adult that way? What makes it ok to treat a child that way? Are they not human?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gardenista]

32. Thanks for your permission to not abuse our children!

Whew, I thought they might turn out to be freepers!

[ultraist]

39. I have two very well behaved children, thank you

And never once have I used physical force with them or called them names. In fact, all of the teachers tell us how our children are some of the best behaved children in the class because they treat themselves and others with respect.

And it WAS abusive. Shaming a child and hitting a child is abuse. PLEASE educate yourself before you spend any time around a child.

[LeftyMom]

42. My kid is doing well

You keep "disciplining" yours with pain and anger and shame and when they're all grown up we'll see whose kids turn out better. (Hint: Surveys of prison inmates show that they were almost all spanked as children.*) Better yet, treat you kid with dignity and respect and all our children can thrive.

* http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp?ch=7&se=50

Edit: Damn, I hate when they get Tombstoned before I finish explining the error of thier ways! Oh well. Thanks Mods! :)

[LeftyMom]

26. Here's a list of abusive behavbiors

http://www.mndap.org/definitions_of_abuse.asp

Physical Abuse Physical abuse is any forceful or violent physical behavior. Examples include:

* slapping
* choking
* punching
* kicking
* pinching
* pushing
* shoving
* biting
* spanking
* scratching
* grabbing
* throwing bodily
* burning
* restraining
* spitting

Other behaviors in this category include throwing objects at the partner, or using or threatening to use a weapon of any kind (stick, ruler, belt, whip, knife, spoon, gun...)

[ultraist]

33. He was also emotionally abusing that child

[LeftyMom]

36. absolutely

Emotional Abuse Emotional abuse includes hurting another person's feelings by saying cruel, unfair comments or by name calling, such as:

* cursing, swearing and/or screaming at you

'Twas in the link. I just wanted to make a point about the hitting, since the dissenter seemed to be justifying that.

[Jamastiene]

29. Oh I see what you are saying

Locking a kid in the dog house outside on a 32 degree night isn't abuse either.
Making a kid drink water until their kidneys bust isn't either abuse either.
Setting a kid on fire isn't abuse either.
Just good parenting like you deem proper, huh?
Or how about being slapped "on the ass" and yelled at on a daily basis unitl it causes a child to withdraw and makes the child afraid to speak to people even when spoken to? And causes problems for the child even thoughout adulthood? I guess you think this is fine and dandy too huh?

I mean surely you are kidding here. If that is what is happening in public, then I wonder what the kid's life is like behind closed doors. I am a survivor of that kind of crap and I can assure you, I'd rather not be in therapy possibly forever because of its effects. The parent is supposed to act more mature than the child. Period. If you think it is ok for the parent to go off on the child and smack him around and yell at him and pitch just as big a tantrum as the child is throwing, then I pity your kids and anyone who has has kids and listens to you. If you are raising children and you act no better than they do and you aren't mature enough to teach them respect without violence, then you shouldn't be raising children to begin with. Got it?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gardenista]

35. you abuse yourself? nt

[latteromden]

37. You yell at and spank yourself? Why do I get the feeling this is a troll..

:eyes:

[Jamastiene]

38. Those are things that have happened

to children by parents who hold the same view you are holding here. The have happened in NC where "spare the rod" is the way things go. The bottom line is that the parent is supposed to be more mature than the kid and if the parent is pitching a bigger tantrum than the kid, they are acting no better. And your little comment about talking to the kid in a calm manner just shows you have never tried it. A kid who is taught by the parent the correct way to act by example is the kid who will behave.

[LeftyMom]

40. You seem to be confused about criminal vs abusive

An act can be abusive without being criminal abuse. Criminal abuse definitions vary but generally are much more lenient in the US than in the rest of the first world.

Many first world countries phrohibit hitting as a punishment. The Swedes did so first in the 70's.

Kids don't need to be yelled at or spanked when they make mistakes or misbehave. I highly recommend Dr William Sears' The Discipline Book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316779032/104-7976734-9865558 and Mary Sheedy Kurcinka http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060923288/qid=1107761682/sr=2-1/104-7976734-9865558?v=glance&s=books
can give you some good alternatives if you are a parent or plan to become one.

[gardenista]

41. Wow, you sure didn't last long! nt

[LeftyMom]

22. Screaming and hitting isn't acceptable behavior.

If that happened to the boy's mother (and if the discription of her cowed behavior is accurate, odds are it does) the creep would go to jail.

BTW, the word "discipline" comes from "disciple." Can you picture Jesus swatting John or the Buddha yelling at those scribes that were always quizzing him and recording his responses? Hitting isn't discipline.

[gardenista]

28. What the original poster described is abuse.

Do you hit your children in the face and call them names in public?

Also, calling another poster a "tool" is rude.

Just thought I'd point that out, in case you weren't intending to be abusive.

[mordarlar]

24. I have spoken up in the past but other times i was not sure it was wise...

with some people the embarrassment of being confronted is FURTHER reason to abuse the helpless. There have been times where i fear harsher repercussions to the child if i intervened.

It sucks.

[MountainLaurel]

57. The flip side though

Is that the child will remember that at least one adult stood up to the parent, and the child will know that the abuse against them was wrong.

There have been many comments on similar threads by DUers who were that child at some point, and to them the intervention of an adult was vital, even if the abuse didn't stop.

[mordarlar]

59. Yeah i was that child at times as well. And i do agree with you...

that saying something is preferable. I have threatened to call the police once. Just that sometimes these things have to be felt out.

[MiddleRiverRefugee]

27. Similar experience, only I opened my big mouth..

I saw a woman on the Metro blow her cool and slap her kid one in front of me. Harder than anyone should ever have to.

I just looked at her and said in my best Eastwood voice (sometimes you need an Eastwood voice):

"Don't worry. When he's sixteen and twice your size, he'll remember you did that."

And got off at my stop. If she never struck her child in anger again, it was worth it.

[grasswire]

34. several years ago...

....I was in a shopping mall and observed an obviously prosperous father, mother, teenage son and teenage daughter in the following scenario. The father became enraged at the son. He hauled off and slapped the kid with all his strength, in the face. The son's face immediately bore a scarlet handprint on it. The family got on the escalator, mother and daughter timid and quiet, son obviously so very ashamed of the scene. I followed them up the escalator. At the top, I passed by the father and gave him a stare. He didn't even get it. He appeared to think I was coming on to him. There was no shame, no sign that he had gone over the line.

I was afraid of this man. I didn't speak to him. I sure pitied his wife and children.

[Senior citizen]

45. Is it abuse? Is it torture?

Not if you're a Republican. They can justify anything done to hurt others--that's what they live for. It is sickening to have to share a planet with people like that, particularly when they're in positions of authority. Notice that they tend to hurt kids, the poor, anybody unarmed and weaker than themselves.

If they call themselves Christian, but act like they either don't understand the Golden Rule, or think that it doesn't apply to them, you know they're Republicans.

[Jamastiene]

46. Yes.

And those types look at the images of bloody dead children from the war like it is porn. They are sickening. They see children as sub human. Hate is not love, but try telling those people that.

[ultraist]

49. The Repuke is gone now!!! BWAHAHAHAA!!!

[msgadget]

48. I don't think you fell short

What you witnessed was a frustrated father and son without having seen all that preceeded the father's reaction. Granted, this dad will never make the cover of Parents but it's entirely possible he had finally gotten to THAT point where he realized he'd lost control of the kid and then lost control of himself.

Edit to shorten post.

[jbnow]

51. I've never talked to a parent

in such a situation. Talking to an out of control parent isn't likely to help. I just can't resist crouching and talking to the child, as someone else suggested.
I usually don't make small talk with them though, do more feeling talk, not that it's any better. I say things like "When my boy was little, sometimes he felt so sad and grouchy when he was really tired..." or whatever came out of my mouth. Just some soothing talk. It usually quiets and diverts the child but more importantly the parent.

I might say something to the parent afterwards like "I'm Italian, I think I am everyone’s mother"

But it's rarely been a dad so out of control and if he is dragging the kid you can hardly naturally start talking to the child. Direct intervention might have escalated the situation.
Most times I have done it the parent was greatly irritated at the child, but not hitting or screaming yet.

When I got a counseling license a wallet sized copy came with it. I have amused myself by imagining intervening in some public dispute by whipping it out and saying “I’m a licensed counselor, I can help”.

That poor child to have that parent! And god knows that dad was probably treated horribly as a child. That is no excuse...just a sad probability.

[LWolf]

53. There is another way.

It didn't have to be "do nothing" or "intervene." Intervention can cause harm, too.

You can alert store security and call the police to report public abuse in progress.

This happened last year to my grandson. His mother publicly beat him in WalMart, and no less than 6 different individuals called it in. She was detained by WalMart security, arrested, and convicted of felony child endangerment. She served 30 days, was released on parole, and is attending parenting classes, which is a good thing, since she still has custody of her 2 younger children. At this point, she no longer has custody of my grandson, and is allowed supervised visits only, which she has not chosen to show up for.

While what you observed may not have been child endangerment, it was abuse, and authorities can be made aware of it without your personal intervention.

[LizW]

54. I've been in the situation too

It's horrible, and these things come upon you suddenly when you're not prepared for confrontation.

I was on a college beach trip with some friends and we noticed a man at the pool "teaching" his 4 year old daughter to swim. His teaching method consisted of throwing her, over and over, into the deep end of the pool and screaming at her to swim to him. The child could barely dog paddle and she was choking and crying as she flailed her way to the side. Every time she got to the side, he was there to grab her and throw her out again. She was exhausted and hysterical, and the asshole was laughing.

I remember my friends and I looking at each other and thinking, "Shit, we've got to stop this." I looked around the pool and EVERYONE was staring at the man. Fortunately, it seemed that he suddenly noticed that everyone was staring and he begrudgingly hauled her out of the water and let her sit down and rest.

That was over twenty years ago and I've always felt like crap for not intervening.

[frankly_fedup2]

55. If that man behaves that way with his child (if it is his, could be a . .

stepson, nephew, etc) out in public, how do you think he treats that boy at home.

I know how you feel. I have been there and watched a woman slap a toddler, riding in the top of the cart facing the woman, so hard that a pop sound echoed through the store. At that time, I was still young myself and the lady happened to be one of my teachers from grade school.

As a young adult (mid-20's), I watched a mother who was totally frustrated with a 2-3 year-old boy. He was everywhere pulling stuff, throwing a temper tantrum. She grabbed him by the arm and said, "Do you want a time out?" Didn't phase the kid. He kept on doing what he wanted so the mother grabbed his arm and they headed out the door. At this time I was a young mother myself of a 4-year-old son. I thought to myself, "that child's behavior is way past a time out, he should be spanked for that behavior."

I always told my son before going in a store that he was not to ask for anything, not to touch anything, and if he behaved, I "might" get him a book or coloring book. If he did not follow my rules, he would get a spanking in the bathroom or when we got home. I really stressed the "behaved" and "might" get him something. He never behaved . . . and he never got anything. . . and I always had to take him to the bathroom of the store. If we were leaving the store, and he started misbehaving, he would get a spanking in the car and/or at home.

One time I will never forget, I had to go to a store to pick up some things and I went through the rules with him. He always shook his head in agreement. Well, we went up one particular isle and a side isle had all the "He-Man" stuff (of which he had all of it). He immediately changed directions on his own and started up that isle. I told him we didn't have time to look that day because I had a lot to do. Well, a 4 year old doesn't hear that. He started begging and started getting loud. I looked at him and told him to be quiet and to come with me and he better listen. Then he did something I could not believe. I had seen other children do this, but I could not believe that MY child would do this. He fell in the dirty floor, started kicking and flailing his arms and legs everywhere, and screaming at the top of his lungs (no tears of course). He was throwing a tantrum. I had heard of them but had never seen an actual one in progress. I'm sure other people hearing him screaming probably thought I had slapped him; however, I couldn't help but laugh (which made him madder). I just left my buggy where it was, picked him up (still kicking and screaming), threw him over my shoulder and headed toward the exit. As I was walking and passing people, I was shaking my head back and forth and had a small smile on my face. People would look at me and kind of smiled in a knowingly understanding way. They knew this kid was in for the spanking of his life, AND they obviously agreed with me 100%. I put him in the car and waited until we got home. Then he started apologizing for his behavior. I just grabbed his arm and led him into the house and he got his spanking and was told to sit on his bed until dinner and think about what he did. Sometimes it was really funny because he would do something that I would fuss at him about, and he would immediately go sit on his bed and punish himself. I never had to tell him to do that most of the time. It was really funny at that time.

He is 26 years old now with an almost 2-year-old son himself and I remember this as if it were yesterday. When I see my son totally frustrated with my grandson, I laugh and laugh and laugh. I love it. Like Bill Cosby says, God does have a sense of humor.

Plus, all you young mothers out there, I know little ones get on your nerves, but enjoy these young years as much as possible. They go by so quick and before you know it, you know longer have the baby stepping on your feet. Then you have a teenager stepping on your heart. Then they get married and have their own family and suddenly, you are not that important in their lives anymore. Especially mothers of sons.

My aunt always told me this little poem. "If you have a daughter, you have a daughter for life, but if you have a son, you have a son until he takes a wife." This is way too true. (except for my husband's mother. I sometimes wonder who he puts first . . . his mother or me).

Sorry so long. Started reminiscing and got off track.

[Carni]

60. Here's where the problem comes in IMO

Not condoning the man hitting the child (by any means)

BUT you heard and did not see a loud slap...you assume the man hit the child, but really for all you know the child slapped the man and then the man picked him up and hauled him out of the store.

The above is probably not what happened (as of course the obvious conclusion is that the father hit the child)

My point is it's hard (like a few others have said here) to be sure you have actually seen the full picture.

[amazona]

61. intervention looks unwise to me

Since beating children is called spanking and it is still legal, there is nothing to be gained by butting in except making the abuser even angrier and even more likely to further beat the child at home.

Don't you ever embarrass me like that again! were some of the most chilling words I have ever heard. Even as an adult, they still send shivers.

I don't see what you could have done to make things better. Now if the child was in actual immediate danger of severe permanent bodily harm, it would be more clearcut, and you and the other 100 people could have properly stepped in.

But as it was I think you did the right thing.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. I had an experience like yours a few years ago, and I'm ashamed to say

that I stood by.

However, the guilt from that experience has made me determined to intervene next time I am faced with such a situation.

[blm]

65. Where was Target security? You could have taken down his license number to

report it to the police.

That was a VERY bad situation, and it likely is worse for the boy at home.

[devilgrrl]

66. Honestly, as much as I would like to intervene...

I would have wussed out too, I'd be too afraid that it would make the situation worse. :evilfrown:

[Enraged_Ape]

67. If you'd gone all Chuck Norris on him...

assuming he didn't seriously hurt or kill you, it only would have been worse for his family when they got home. They are the easy, handy targets for his rage.

Probably the best you could have done is hang back and try to get his license number, then call the authorities. But don't beat yourself because you didn't confront him directly.

[undergroundpanther]

69. When nobody steps up for integrity

Nobody has any.

And the worst thing I felt growing up facing abuse...

Was the feeling that the adults around me didn't give a crap about my feelings,the pain and terror and would not intervene.IT told me might makes right because if it is parent to child,no one dares cross the sacred barrier of "family"...No matter what my parents I had no choice but to endure it and shut up. Bystanders say by their failure to empathize in action with an abused person,that they would not stand up for me when I was too small to do it by myself..Because "sick society says" when a kid "defies" their parent it is NEVER for a good or valid reason. What a sick myth. One reason a kid rebels is the parent is not worthy of the kid's respect. So to a parent with an narcissistic ego,everything is disrespect,anything other than obedience is seen as defiance.This sets a kid up into a horrid catch 22..When the kid refuses to be compliant it is defiance.
When the kid defies for any reason it is bad. Even if there is a good and valid reason that might not make sense to an adult mind..Something that could be important to the kid. The adult wouldn't know especially an adult that does not give a shit about knowing what the kid feels or why he feels that way because narcissistic parents are too self absorbed into their own stress, egos and baggage..to step outside of themselves and empathize.Kids can't do what adults do,they get tired,distracted and clingy .Adults forget that kids are not adults yet..

Alot of parents never think to ask a kid why they are freaking out,they just want to have control or assume the kid is a little Machiavellian monster out to make them feel upset like a scheming adult would do. Sometimes it's just the kid is tired..or confused or wants something or wants to show YOU something.Talk about a case of adult narcissism.Why an adult bullies a kid is usually the adults issue ,Like because they are ashamed as if the kid is THEM SELF,and then they act like assholes to their own kids to stop a kid from being obnoxious *in public*..And these parents wonder why their kids are so rebellious*in public*.Well Duh! Don't be such a self absorbed ass to your kid *in private* if you love them like you say you do in public you,hypocrite.

Some parents act as if they are somehow exempt from being bullies because they are parents under stress.That is bullshit. Some parents assume they are entitled to respect because THEY are the parent,That too is BULLSHIT.Guess what parents? Nobody is entitled to get respect from anyone else including your own kids.If you EARN respect you get it and all respect is a two way thing in a relationship with context..Be a parent that disrespects your kids and the kids will disrespect you right back.Parents: your kids are your mirror.Don't like what you see? Does it make you ashamed? Than CHANGE YOURSELF.

Anyone who hits to control another person who is either incapable,weaker,smaller or more vulnerable than they are is a bully.Anyone who belittles a person and tears up their emotions to control them is a bully.

Bullies NEVER are entitled to any respect from anyone when they act like tyrants..Abuse is always an abuse of power.Parents are always in a more powerful position in relation to their kids.Parents who spank abuse their power and corrupt their authority in the eyes of their kids and don't deserve any respect for that.
Kids know this,it's the parents who need to re-learn it again by remembering how it feels to be powerless and misunderstood by someone you totally depend on. And this is something too many people are scared shit-less of doing.

Bullies abuse trust,power and powerlessness to get their own way.And too many parents are excusing themselves and other parents behaving like bullies. I think that is why "spanking" is seen as "discipline" by these kinds of control freak people and not seen for the ABUSE it is..It really IS that stark. Abuse for control,to get undeserved respect,or obedience is wrong period.It is designed to hurt someone else.Hurt applied to control another person is abuse,the guards at Abu Ghraib wanted to control the Iraqis to get them to talk too.And they hit hogtied vulnerable prisoners who depend on them for food in prison,to get their way too..Same pattern here.

But than again to go remembering how it felt to be betrayed and emotionally torn apart or hit by an adult whom you must totally depend upon for survival and emotional love is never pleasant to feel.Welcome to the society of generational Stockholm syndrome,where Abu Gharib is a school prank and beating a kid is"good for them"..you hear the sickness in the shrill voices of the pro spanker's justifying their lapse of reason and empathy..always for want of control...or because they are ashamed.It's all about me to a narcissist.And narcissists regrettably can become parents.
When I remember the "spankings" I got with any emotional honesty I strengthen my resolve to refuse to abuse,and refuse to tolerate abuse. It's because I remember what it felt like to be in the vulnerable and powerless child position and have adults pretend I don't feel pain, fear and betrayal like they would feel if their spouse or boss abused them like they did to me. I do not want to keep the sickness going in the family..or in society. So I risk.I speak.I say what I see regardless of what people want to hear. I know this will piss pro spanker's off.They'll rationalize themselves...

Bullies don't like when I speak my voice,they hate when I call them what they are, bullies..and neither do enablers of bullies and the ashamed.And that's their problem.It's time they looked at it honestly and got over themselves. Than maybe the world would be a better place to live in.

[Enraged_Ape]

70. Easy, panther. I didn't say to do nothing.

I just made the 100% valid point that if the poster had dressed the abuser down in front of his family, it would have been the worse for them when they got home. As a survivor of abuse yourself, you know that's true, though you may not want to admit it.

I really don't believe that a lecture does anything for assholes who hit abuse their children, nor for the enablers who let them. I think it just makes the lecturer feel better. But if it does that, then I'm all for it.