Mamia Abu Jamal is guiltier than OJ, why is he always on Democracy Now?

[devilgrrl]

Sorry folks, I think this guy shot that cop in Philadelphia and it's kinda scary that I should take anything he says seriously. Am I mad?

[Bunny]

1. Well, it's early, but I'm going to make the popcorn and sit back to watch

the flames.

[devilgrrl]

3. It's a question, not a flame war...

I'm willing to listen to all opinions, provided that they don't turn into personal attacks against me for having the gall to ask it in the first place.

[Bunny]

5. But flames you'll get.

I've seen many flame wars here when discussing BOTH Mumia and OJ. You declared Mumia to be more guilty than OJ, there are people here who think that neither are guilty.

[devilgrrl]

25. Good point.

:-)

[GoneOffShore]

4. There'll be no flames from this

Philadelphian.

Mumia has never said he didn't do it.

[htuttle]

2. John Negroponte, Poindexter, Abrams, et al

Murderers, all. And they get on CNN.

[DistantWind88]

6. Who did Poindexter and Abrams murder?

[htuttle]

11. Personally? Probably nobody

But neither did John Gotti.

[DistantWind88]

13. or have killed

[stevedeshazer]

7. flamebait

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. no one is more guilty than OJ

and i can think of no one that better shows the problems with our justice system...big name/big money=get off scott free...

theProdigal

[bullimiami]

9. I cant agree that a rubber stamp by our corrupt system

made oj innocent.

i dont know the guilt or innocence of mumia but he is surely no guiltier than oj and without a doubt less deviant and twisted.

[AP]

10. The argument is that he may have shot the cop, but he didn't

meet the requirements for the death penalty.

If just shooting someone qualified a person for the death penalty, there'd be way way more prisoners on death row.

I believe that Jamal's supporters basically don't argue that he didn't shoot the cop. Now, I believe if you read the record, you really have to wonder if there is enough in it to justify the death penalty. It has been a long time since I read the full story, but I do remember thinking when I read it that, even if you believe capital punishment is cool, there probably wasn't enough to justify it for Jamal.

[Jack The Tab]

12. I never understood this hero-worship of the man...

From everything i've read, it's highly probable he committed the crime.

The radical left's canonization of this man is a real shame.

[htuttle]

15. It's got a lot more to do with what he says than what he did

I know of nobody who 'worships' him. Those I know who admire him, admire him for what he says, not for what he did.

If you believe that the left 'canonizes cop killers' because they kill cops, you might ask yourself 'why bother with Mumia?' There are certainly many more sucessful cop killers to be 'worshipped' than Mumia Abu Jamal if that were the motivation. He was only convicted of killing a single one.

[Jack The Tab]

16. "He was only convicted of killing a single one"

Isn't that one too many?

And I do not believe the left canonizes cop killers. I said the RADICAL LEFT has canonized this one man.

[htuttle]

23. Obviously, it's too many

And thanks for utterly missing my point.

[H2O Man]

14. Well well well .....

he may be guilty, which would make him as guilty as OJ.

An interesting book by Daniel Williams, the defense lawyer and chief legal strategist for Mumia Abu-Jamal, is worth reading. It raises some interesting points. Perhaps the first is: are all people entitled to a fair trial in America? Should that be a goal? And in cases where a person does not get a fair trial, what recourse -- if any -- should he or she have?

The second question may be one of the value of the death penalty. And it seems to be a question that America still struggles with. This case offers people the opportunity to discuss and debate the death penalty in an emotional context. Is that the manner it should be discussed in?

Once those issues are dealt with, the issues in this specific case are worth discussing. Is he guilty? Not guilty? Perhaps even innocent? I don't know. I do know that there have been a number of cases in the United States where people accused and convicted of crimes have been found to be innocent. And others, like Leonard Peltier, remain in prison long after it's been shown that they simply were not the person who commited the crime they were convicted of.

I think it's a subject best discussed without the emotional baggage.

[tlcandie]

17. I have no emotional baggage regarding this thread...

DemocracyNOW! has shown nothing but the truth and facts regarding anything I've seen them produce, etc.

You can read this and google more all you want...

The Case of Mumia Abu Jamal, by Terry Bisson

(from New York Newsday, 1995)

http://www.terrybisson.com/mumia.html

<snip>
Mumia was driving a cab that night. It is undisputed that he intervened. It is undisputed that both he and officer Daniel Faulkner were shot, and that Faulkner died. What is in dispute is who killed Faulkner. Mumia says it was someone else, and several witnesses saw another shooter flee the scene. Mumia's legally registered .38 was never decisively linked to Faulkner's wounds.
<snip>

<snip>
But best of all was the judge. A life member of the Fraternal Order of Police, branded as a "defendant's nightmare" by the Philadelphia Inquirer, Judge Albert F. Sabo has sentenced more men to die (31 to date, only two of them white) than any other sitting judge in America. A fellow judge once called his courtroom a "vacation for prosecutors" because of bias toward convictions.

Sabo wouldn't allow Mumia to defend himself because his dreadlocks made jurors "nervous." Kept in a holding cell, he read about his own trial in the newspapers. A Black juror was removed for violating sequestration, while a white juror was given an court escort to take a civil service exam; in the end all the Black jurors but one were removed. A policeman who filed two conflicting reports was never subpoenaed (he was "on vacation"). Mumia's Black Panther history was waved like a bloody flag: Had he said, "All power to the people?" Yes, he admitted, he had said that. Character witnesses like poet Sonia Sanchez were cross-examined about their "anti-police" writings and associations.
<snip>

EDIT: Terry Bisson webpage and info:
http://www.terrybisson.com/index.html

<snip>
With his long-time companion Judy Jensen, Bisson owned and operated a revolutionary mail-order book service, Jacobin Books, from 1985 to 1990. His young adult biography of NAT TURNER, Slave Revolt Leader was published by Chelsea House and Holloway House in 1988. With Tim Blunk and Ray Levasseur, Bisson (as "Jacobin") edited an anthology of writings by revolutionary political prisoners in the USA, HAULING UP THE MORNING (Red Sea Press, 1990). In 1996 he edited the 1960s memoir of activist film star Peter Coyote, SLEEPING WHERE I FALL (Counterpoint, Spring 98). He helped put together Mumia Abu Jamal's LIVE FROM DEATH ROW in 1995 and wrote ON A MOVE: The Story of Mumia Abu-Jamal (Litmus, February 2001). He is now working on a film script about Mumia for independent producer Joshua Leonard.

Bisson is from Owensboro, Kentucky; he was born a long time ago. He attended Grinnell College and the University of Louisville (1964). He is a member of the Authors Guild and the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. Though he lives in Oakland, California,.....
<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

<snip>
On December 9, 1981, Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner pulled over Abu-Jamal's brother, William Cook, for driving the wrong way on a one-way street with his lights out. Abu-Jamal, who was driving a cab at the time, happened on the scene and claimed to see Faulkner beating his brother with a flashlight. In an ensuing struggle, both Abu-Jamal and Faulkner were shot. Faulkner was shot in the back and in the face and died, while Abu-Jamal was only wounded. Abu-Jamal was arrested at 4 a.m. with a pistol registered in his name at his side.
<snip>

<snip>
Even among many of those convinced of Abu-Jamal's guilt, there is a strong belief that he did not receive a fair trial in the courtroom proceeding that produced his first-degree murder conviction. Points asserted in Jamal's appeals or by his supporters include:....
<snip>

<snip>
Human Rights Watch noted serious concerns about the fairness of his trial, particularly the heavy reliance during the sentencing phase on information regarding his political beliefs and associations. According to Amnesty International's website, while they are "not in a position to say whether Mumia Abu-Jamal is innocent or guilty", they have concluded that the proceedings used to convict and sentence Mumia Abu-Jamal to death were in violation of minimum international standards that govern fair trial procedures and the use of the death penalty." Amnesty International is against the death penalty in all cases.
<snip>

[Mari333]

18. Problem is: Free Mumia doesnt play that well in small rural towns

and I might get flamed, but when ANSWER has its rallies, it has some shrill and wildeyed people often on the C Span coverage...which doesnt play well in Peoria. While I appreciate ANSWERs commitment to rallies and organizing efforts, they miss the boat totally when it comes to reaching middle america.

[Blue_Tires]

19. uhhhhhh

i'm not sure what Abu-Jamal has to do with the Simpson case, especailly since Abu-Jamal was convicted and sentenced to death...And no matter if you believe if he's truly guilty or not (I think he probably is) you at least have to admit the procesution's case against him was tainted---unfortunately, the american mindset is 'but hey, he's guilty anyways, so what's a little witness tampering matter?? as long as you get the conviction'....

and as usual, i've strayed off topic...bottom line: If you honestly don't like Abu-Jamal on Democracy Now, then don't listen...boycott...write letters to those in a position to do something....

but bitching about it here (and tying it to the Simpson trial, which is a hell of a stretch if i do say) is only gonna result in a 300+ post thread filled with flames....

[tlcandie]

20. Boycott? Here's your list... WARNING very long!!!

http://www.grandlodgefop.org/faulkner/projamal.html

(listing only A's and B's due to length..)

ABC No Rio - club & gallery (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Acoli, Sundiata - political prisoner/visual artist (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, publisher of Live from Death Row by Mumia Abu-Jamal
Africa, Pam - coordinator of International Concerned Family & Friends of Mumia Abu-Jamal (sonicnet.com, 1/8/99)
Africa, Romona - leader of International Concerned Family & Friends of Mumia Abu Jamal (Yahoo! News, 8/19/99)
Aiyetoro, Adjoa A. - Director, National Conference for Black Lawyers (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Akbar, Sonia Navvab - Barcelona, Spain (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Alexander, Shana - author (New York Times, 10/16/98 & New York Times, 8/9/95)
All Natural - hip hop artists (Mumia support web site)
Allen, Steve - comedian, musician, author (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Allers, Jackson - Working Class Productions (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Altschuler, Alan (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Alvarez, Dr. Ricardo (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Ammiano, Tom - San Francisco Board of Supervisors (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Amnesty International (http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/reports/mumia)
Anderson, Debbie - photographer (Mumia support web site)
Anderson, Fred & Debbie - Magi Crafts (Jamal News Service, 8/30/99)
Anderson, Laurie - artist (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Anderson, Sam - arts organizer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Anderson, W. Cody - WHAT-AM, Philadelphia (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Andrews, Benny - visual artist (Mumia support web site)
Angelou, Maya - poet (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Applebroog, Ida - visual artist (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Arnold, Johann Christoph - author (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Asia One - B-Boy Summit organizer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Asner Family Foundation (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Asner, Edward - actor (Mumia 911, 9/11/99 & New York Times, 10/16/98)
Atzlan Underground - band (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Auster, Paul - author (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Axelrod, David - producer, musician (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)

B+ - photographer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Babu, Ayuko - Pan African Film Festival (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Bad Mojo - band (Mumia support web site)
Bad Religion - punk group (sonicnet.com, 1/29/99)
Baker, Houston - University of Pennsylvania (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Baldwin, Alec (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Banks, Russell - author (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Banton, Pato - reggae musician (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Barlow, John Perry - Cofounder, Electronic Frontier Foundation (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Barnet, Richard J. - Institute for Policy Studies (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Beach, Jennifer - FireWorx (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Beastie Boys - rap group (sonicnet.com, 1/29/99)
Bedau, Hugo Adam - Tufts University (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Belafonte, Harry - singer/actor (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Bell, Derrick - legal scholar (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Berkman, Alan (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Berrigan, Daniel - peace activist (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Berrigan, Philip - Plowshares (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Beth B - visual artist (Mumia support web site)
[e-mail], a free-speech E-mail list (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Billingslea, Nikia - poet, dancer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Billops, Cammile - visual artist, filmmaker (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Birden, Carolyn M. - Community College of Philadelphia (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Bisson, Terry - writer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99 & New York Times, 10/16/98)
Black Eyed Peas - hip hop artists (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Blackalicious - hip hop artists (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Blakeslee, Joy (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Blank, Jessica - events coordinator for Mumia 911 (sonicnet.com, 8/19/99)
Boots, The Coup - hip hop artist (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Bowman, Dean - musician (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Branfman, Judy - visual artist (Mumia support web site)
Brathwaite, Fred - musician, filmmaker (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Brecht Forum/N.Y. Marxist School (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Brown, Aaron (E-mail to Grand Lodge, 8/5/01)
Brown, Jr., Oscar - entertainer, composer, writer (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Browne, Jackson - musician (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Brugman, Bruce B. - S.F. Bay Guardian (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Brutus, Dennis - poet (Mumia 911, 9/11/99 & New York Times, 10/16/98 & New York Times, 8/9/95)
Buffalo Group of SUNY Faculty, Staff & Students (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Burrows, Vinie - actor (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)
Burton, John L. - President pro tempore, California State Senate (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Butts III, Rev. Dr. Calvin O. (New York Times, 10/16/98)
Byrne, David - Luaka Bop Records (New York Times, 8/9/95)
Byron, Don - jazz musician (Mumia 911, 9/11/99)

[asthmaticeog]

21. I'm with you, devilgrrl.

I get super pissed off at people who bring "Free Mumia" signs to every war protest - and frankly, these asses will glom on to any protest whatsoever.

Even if the signs just said "Re-try Mumia," I might be more sympathetic. A retrial, I would support. But FREE him? What, all these people were there and they know what happened?

[deutsey]

22. I'm still undecided about his guilt

based on many questions about the incident and subsequent trial. Democracy Now! did a report a while ago that explored these questions and new evidence that have caused some people to call for a new trial.

I haven't followed the case all that closely beyond that, but the report left me with the belief that there is enough doubt surrounding the process that put Jamal in prison to call for new trial.

This might be it, but I thought there was another, two part thing DN did...do a search on the DN site:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0222233&mode=thread&tid=5

[DrWeird]

24. Then why the fear of giving him a fair trial? nt