Is DU being trolled by The Club for Growth and...

[devilgrrl]

The American Enterprise Institute?

A lot of pro-privatization of SS, pro-globalization, I'm a capitalist posts these days....

Just curious.

[RubyDuby in GA]

1. Oooohhh, if so I've got a finger for them

Guess which one I'm showing them now....

:)

[Junkdrawer]

2. Think Tank vs Astroturf Firms vs Lobbists....

DC has a whole jungle of Advocates-For-Hire firms.

There are many subtle variations in the Corporate Whore ecosystem.

[yinkaafrica]

3. Why do they waste their time?

It takes me two hours a day to catch up with what's
happening at DU. Who has the time, energy, and tolerance
to waste time where you are not wanted?

[DBoon]

7. two reasons

1. They are paid very well to troll. You don't think they do this stuff for free like the "real" DU members, do you?

2. They will not allow any corner of opposition to be untouched and unmonitored. Any dissent is a threat.

[evil_orange_cat]

4. nothing wrong with being a capitalist... as long as...

... you believe in rules for the game. Capitalism works best when regulated by the government. i.e. worker protections, labor laws, etc...

[devilgrrl]

6. Never said there's anything wrong with it...

but I do think that "capitalism" has been bastardized by the CATO, AEI, etc... they certainly don't practice capitalism the way it's meant.

sorry for the grammatical errors...

[BlueInRed]

5. Yes -- IMO

I absolutely do believe it. I would recommend looking at the poster's profile and recent posts before engaging them in a long multi-thread discussion, as I ran into this on a SS thread.

I've noticed several posters who joined between January 15 and 25 of 2005 who seem to almost exclusively argue (1) for Bush's social security plan, (2)for the "illusion" of the trust fund, (3) against raising the wage cap, etc. In addition, several of these posters also posted links to nasty little things in the Moonie Times on the Kennedys and Kerrys in general discussion threads. (Although, I looked at this person's posts since the incident, and suddenly I see them posting in a much different manner than the 100 or so posts I read before. So, they've caught on.)

We've got some real experts on this board who can shoot through these arguments, so I hope they will know these people are out there, trying to sell Bush's wares on social security, tort reform and other topics.

[rinsd]

22. As far as the illusion of the trust fund....

I must say Paul Krugman himself wrote about that a few times in the mid-90's. Which is why his "what crisis" meme was foolish instead of showing the costs of privatization as he has done in more recent articles.

Is there a problem? Yes. Can we do something now that may prevent it from being an major crisis? Yes.

Why are the Dems not screaming from the rooftops that the solution is raising and or eliminating the payroll tax cap(making some exceptions for the self employed)? I couldn't tell you.

[BlueInRed]

26. they should be yelling from the rooftops on the cap, yes

As for the trust fund, if they are going to put forth the argument that govt securities aren't real assets (or just a transfer among accounts in the govt), then they need to change the law to allow the trust fund managers invest in other assets. The fund should be allowed to cash in the govt securities now and buy other securities or real estate.

But this won't happen. Back in the 1940s, the GOP refused to that allow option by arguing this would amount to backdoor socialism. In the real world, if a fund manager invested in assets of questionable worth, they could be sued for mismanagement. If excess social security contributions made of real cash from my paycheck are being converted to "illusory assets" upon receipt by the govt, then the govt is mismanaging my contributions and the fund, IMO.

Also, the SS fund should be completely off budget, as Clinton and Gore suggested.

[Poppyseedman]

8. I can understand why there is a

lot of pro-privatization of SS posts here.

There is a lot of confusion on the subject in general, especially the younger ones, (under 30) for the most part think SS is a scam.

As a disclaimer: I work with primarily younger people in their twenties, almost all of them think some sort of privatization is better than getting nothing. That's the reality, Bush is tapping into.

The democratic party is going to have to come up with an answer for younger people other than "Bush is lying" mantra.

[bunkerbuster1]

9. Actually, it'd be nice if they STARTED saying "Bush is lying."

So far the Dems have kept the gloves on.

Otherwise, I agree that Chimpy is playing generational warfare, and tapping into the common belief that "there'll be nothing left for me when I retire."

We have to point out that

1) As currently configured, yes, there WILL Be something left for you when you retire, quite a lot, actually; and

2) Bush IS LYING.

[Village Idiot]

15. The whole frickin' thing is a SHAM!!!

The Congressional Budget Office has REPEATEDLY said that Social Security will not reach a crisis point until 2053 - and even THEN, it will be able to cover some 81% or all disbursements...

There are other, more important issues that this fruitless discussion on Social Security is detracting from...like the War on America, The War on the Poor, The War on Minorities, accountability for the Republican Party's bombing of the WTC on Sept. 11, 2001, etc...

[w13rd0]

10. I am 33 years old...

...will Social Security be there for me when I'm of age to retire? Let me be frank. It doesn't matter. If Social Security ends completely the day before I'm set to start getting it, that's ok, because it means I've been able to live until that time without being concerned that my mother or father, or anyone for that matter, were left with an inadequate safety net. What does it say about a societies "moral values" when they will only be supportive of a safety net as long as "they get theirs"? Why does Bush tell seniors, "If you are over 55, your benefits will not be changed."? Sell those getting on a bad idea by promising them they'll get theirs, now it's time to screw everyone that follows...

The "Baby Boom" was the result of government policy, suburban sprawl and the GI bill. And it's not even as if Bush's plan does anything to improve solvency. It's just another god damn giveaway to his friends and family.

Raise the income cap on FICA to 200 or 250 thousand. "Crises" abated for the forseeable future. Or give up some of those ill advised tax cuts that are redistributing wealth in this nation upwards...

[BlueInRed]

19. I can understand your concern

I'd be concerned too if I were your age. And you're dead on about raising the cap or reversing the tax cuts. Problem solved.

I just hope you'll tell others your age that these same people lied to the Baby Boomers about the reason for doubling the SS tax back in 1983. They told us if we boomers bit the bullet and accepted the tax increase, SS would be solvent by building up the trust fund. The money was supposed to be earmarked for SS, but greedy politicians could resist using that money. So now the trust fund isn't as big as it's supposed to be.

Now, those same people (and I mean same people, like they were in the Reagan admin and are now in Bush's admin) are saying the trust fund they created is "just an illusion." They say it doesn't have "real assets".

So, please tell your friends that whatever the Bushies promise you now, they can change their minds at any time. And future politicians can change the rules any time. Tell your friends that as long as the money is still in the govt's hands, the money is not "yours". In 20 years, they can flip the argument around in a heartbeat. Just like they did to us.

You've got a really admirable attitude to care about the safety net for your parents. I hope we get some people in office who will care about a real solution for both the boomers and your generation.

[Done]

13. Medicare is in trouble, but SS is in pretty good shape

The problems with Medicare and the coming retirement of the baby-boomers has been used to mislead people into believing there is a problem with SS. Have the stinking repukes ever been truthful about anything?

[rinsd]

17. Nail meet head....

"As a disclaimer: I work with primarily younger people in their twenties, almost all of them think some sort of privatization is better than getting nothing. That's the reality, Bush is tapping into."

I would wholeheartedly agree with this. People wonder why anyone would touch SS and this is why it has become politically feasible in the last 5 to 10 years.

"The democratic party is going to have to come up with an answer for younger people other than "Bush is lying" mantra."

On top of the "what crisis" meme that thankfully died a quick death(or at least I hope it did), Bush is lying isn't much better especially when there have been noises for SS reform for years now.

What is so freaking hard about making alot of noise about the payroll tax cap?

[bunkerbuster1]

11. Fer sure.

The other day some Little Goat Fucker type told me about "wonderful Chile."

[seabeyond]

12. so if i own a business i should get off this board

and not be a democrat

sounds kinda harsh and limiting for the party

[devilgrrl]

16. Yeah, that's so what I meant (sacasm)

What a stupid comment. :argh:

[seabeyond]

29. what , you put capitalism = freepers

my stupid statement?

[devilgrrl]

33. No!

But you're making it sound like I am.

[mattclearing]

14. Is it possible that some Democrats believe in capitalism?

Oh, the horror! People sell things and make money!!!

And I thought we were being trolled by the ISO and the Green Party.

:D

[rinsd]

18. LOL (nt)

[devilgrrl]

21. So what you're saying is that you're for privatization of SS?

Because there have been several posts in the past few weeks trying to sell the idea. That's what we're talking about here but don't let that stop you from making shit up.

[rinsd]

23. Don't forget those that are pro-globalization and capitalistic!

The grand Democratic tradition of protectionism and socialism must not be undermined!

Oh wait, that isn't a Democratic tradition. Nevermind.

If you kept it to the whole SS privatization, you would have been better off.

[devilgrrl]

24. Well, you seem to have all the answers...

well educate me Yoda, o wise one!

[rinsd]

31. First off lighten up ;-)

I was just doing a little teasing. I apologize if offended.

[devilgrrl]

32. stop it! you're making me...

:cry:


:silly:

[mattclearing]

27. No, That's a swindle.

And I've posted on it a number of times.

It is simply another attempt to get the middle class to buy into the market and get reamed again, like the tech boom.

[rman]

25. explicitly stating "i am a capitalist" - starting a thread about it -

doesn't present the same message as "i believe in selling things and making money".

the issue with capitalism in the way it works out these days, is *how much* money one 'makes', not so much the fact that one makes money as such.

those who oppose the way capitalism works out often refer to it simply by calling it "capitalism", which doesn't help clarify the issue.

[mattclearing]

28. Most Democrats don't understand economics or business.

There is a tendency among us to stereotype all corporations based on the greedy few. I strive to avoid that pitfall.

[rman]

34. most big corporations are greedy

The "few rotten apples" argument doesn't hold. Many decades ago it was a few bad apples, it wasn't tended to properly, so now practically the whole lot is rotten.

see
www.thecorporation.com

[mattclearing]

36. I've seen it. The Corporation was fairly even-handed.

They even ceded that many businesses see that their business is unsustainable.

The scene where the executive invites the protesters outside to discuss their views over some tea was hilarious.

Personally, I think that is what it will take in order to improve matters.

We have a duty to impose responsibility on those who won't police themselves. We have to make it worth their while by making their lives hell until they clean up their act.

[rman]

39. You have watched it selectively

In the docu there's one CEO who says the current way of conducting business in unsustainable (it's the guy from the carpet factory "Interface inc.").

The guy inviting the protesters is an exec from Shell who works on Shell's environmental programs - the docu clearly shows that while Shell is doing these "good" things on the one hand, at the same time Shell pollutes the environment in some far away corner of the world that isn't mentioned in the mass media.

If anything, "The Corporation" makes it very clear it's not a matter of "a few rotten apples", but rather that the problem is systematic.

For a look at this from another angle i'd recommend
"Confessions of an economic hit man"
www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251&mode=thread&tid=25
www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/31/1546207&mode=thread&tid=25
Which shows that governments and global institutions at the highest level (IMF, WTO) are complicit.

[seabeyond]

30. did you read the post of people saying they are capitalists

almost everyone of them clarified what is happening today is not true capitalism. they specifically gave the definition they felt capitalism is to them. almost all said what is happening today is not true capitalism

i dont think that is a scary thread

[rman]

35. i was thinking the OP had a different

different kind of "i'm a capitalist"-posts in mind, more along these lines:
"every dollar that the government takes in and spends
does not create wealth, products or marketable services.
That kind of spending is just a drag on the wealth creating
entities. On the other hand, tax breaks given to wealth
creating entities increase the wealth in the country, part
of which can then be used to help the needy."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1576790&mesg_id=1577239&page=

[tom_paine]

20. Love that bumpersticker!

I may buy some...

[ProfessorGAC]

37. I Hope So

By reading posts here, they might figure out how to think beyond two dimensions and learn how to think.

I'm not holding out hope though. I don't think they're really all that bright, whether they call their partisan shops "think tanks" or not. Thinking clearly and deeply is not among their strengths.
The Professor

[BlueInRed]

38. kick

[Moderator]

40. Locking

flamebait and promoting freeper paranoia.