I find Dean's position on taxes and the budget frightening.

[AP]

I have been posting comments on all the Dean threads which bring this up. My fingers hurt. I'm going to consolidate all of my comments into one post.

All you people who feel you're tightly connected to Dean, and go to his events, you should all think about doing one thing. Why don't you just gently prod him into recognizing that the entire purpose of the Bush administration, from Enron, to the tax code, to reducing middle class opportunities, has been to convert all the built up wealth and labour of the middle and working class to wealth in the hands of the rich, Republican hegemony. Please bring this up whey you meet him, and in your meet up groups.

Tell him his tax plan and his budget talk make no sense within this economic reality and at this historical moment. Try to convince him that he doesn't quite see things right.

Please. For me. So I can rest my fingers.

[benddem]

1. I don't think you know what his position is.

He wants to repeal the tax cuts, Put the corporate crooks in jail and give everyone a chance at health care. The health care bit in itself will save the lower and middle classes tons of money. I think you need to read his statements...and not listen to the pundits.

[Cha]

4. Welcome to DU, bigannie!

[AP]

7. I just read a first-hand account from someon who saw him in Philly

say that he's targeting tax 'reform' on the poor. Doubling the EIC is going to do very little compared to tax relief targeted on the middle and working class intended to counter the years of regressivity targeted at them.

[Jacobin]

2. Where to start

The budget deficit which is exploding to heights never before seen in history is so destructive that the fucking IMF issued a warning. This is the organization that issues such warnings to countries like Argentina when they are about to implode.

Interest rates are getting ready to go through the roof. It's simple, really. When the deficits get this high, interest rates have to go up to attract enough money for the government to borrow.

When interest rates go up a lot, more businesses will go broke, because many can barely make their debt payments on low interest loans. This will add to unemployment as they lay off workers.

Taxes will have to go up to keep inflation from going berserk. When taxes are raised and interest rates are high, it is a drag on the economy and makes unemployment worse.

Smirk has put this country on a downward spiral which will rival the Great Depression.

ANYONE who is elected has to face these truths, these facts, these incontrovertable economic parameters to try to pull us out of this absolute economic quagmire in which we are just beginning to feel.

Anyone who thinks that its' gonna be easy is fooling himself. I trust Dean not to be an idiot ideologue, but to find the best economic minds we have (as Clinton did) to do the best thing for the most people.

That's the bottom line.

(above courtesy of my brother who teaches economics at Chapel Hill and who agrees with the Nobel Prize winning economist who says Smirk is creating economic armageddon in this country)

[AP]

8. There are enough posts elsewhere which more accurately

describe what Clinton actually did (and tried to do) and how it isn't the same as Dean's plan.

[Jacobin]

10. Oh. Pardon me for cluttering your Dean bashing thread with shit

[AP]

12. Maybe Dean DOESN"T have all the information. I hear he's a really good guy

maybe he'll listen if some of his supporters try to bring this to his attention.

I'm so beyond bashing. I'm seriously worried that these issues are going to go unaddressed because people will be afraid to show any sign of dissent.

[HFishbine]

30. Here's an idea

Why don't YOU bring it to his attention. Send him an e-mail and enlighten him.

[AP]

31. I'm not going to $1000/plate fundraisers for Dean like the

one in Philly. But if I had been in that room, I certainly would have said something.

[sfecap]

46. And he would have listened to you...

...and probably spent a few minutes discussing your opinion.

He's like that.

[AP]

47. Can we test this theory? Who is going to see him soon?

[AP]

48. Can we test this theory? Who is going to see him soon?

[tjdee]

65. Like all the other candidates? n/t

[sfecap]

3. The real reason for the "tax cuts" ...

...was to gut social spending. Dean recognizes this. He also recognizes that given the choice between a "tax cut" and health insurance, the overwhelming majority of people will choose health care for their families.

[gully]

5. "WE" NEVER GOT A TAX CUT!

We are paying more property taxes, more sales taxes etc... The middle class never benefited from the so called 'cuts' that's what Dean points out over and over again.

Didn't mean to shout... ;)

[AP]

11. Whether states chose to go regressive in response to Federal regressivity

is part of the problem. And states don't HAVE to go regressive. When they do, we should complain just as loud as I am about this.

[MercutioATC]

19. Bullshit. When states get less money, they have to pass on the loss.

Either in the form of cut services (and the levy requests that result) or increased taxes, the taxpayers pay. This is a direct result of the huge, unbalanced tax cut which left les money available for the states. The administration got to claim credit for putting money in pockets and the states and local governments took the heat for raising taxes.

[AP]

22. They can pass it on progressively or regressively.

It is not an argument to say that we cannot have a progressive federal tax code because it will result in a regressive state code.

That is not even logical. And, politically speaking, it's insane.

[MercutioATC]

35. But when we pass a REGRESSIVE federal tax plan which saps

millions of dollars from the states, they will HAVE to respond by raising taxes. Granted, they can choose the forms these taxes take, but they WILL increase taxes.

[AP]

41. But when we enact a progressive tax code (state and/or federal),

the economy grows...

[pansypoo53219]

36. and just how many states

tax their people PROGRESSIVELY?!? I bet not more than 5, if that.

[AP]

42. Actually, zero. CA is the most progressive, and it's still

regressive (the highest quintile pays the lowest effective tax rate).

That's still no excuse for accepting regressivity on the federal level.

[Cha]

6. "To gut social spending" and to repay his campaign contributors...

and so the vicious cycle continues.

And that is right ..what do his contributors care about our Country's social programs?

[AP]

9. The way Dean's talking, I'm afraid he doesn't realize what's going on.

Or, worse, he does realize, but this is part of his 'business-friendly' angle: don't shift any of the tax burden back up the ladder.

[sfecap]

13. Well, it certainly would shift it back "up the ladder" if

the cuts are repealed...

But you don't really care, do you? It's just another Dean bashing thread, right?

Here we go...

[AP]

15. No, I actually it's a Dean pleading post.

I just want people to bring this up. If you get the chance to meet Dean, can't you just say you have some questions about his ideas about taxation?

I'm begging now, not bashing.

[sfecap]

17. OK...I've met Dean...

I like his position. Repeal the cuts. Balance the budget.

[AP]

24. And target tax reform only at the poor?

No help for the middle class, and no added tax burden on the top?

Say hello to Great Depression II.

You just cannot continue to work the middle and working class that hard without giving them any beneftis.

How 'bout next time you meet up with Dean, you just try to gently sway him into a set of policy goals which can actually help America, and help the progressives in his party make the argument that the burden needs to be shifted back to those who benefit.

[sfecap]

32. There WILL be a benefit to the middle class...

Health care. Millions of hard working middle class people have no health care, or they pay 30% of their salary to pay for health care.

Health care is a very expensive cost to many families in our countery. Many, many companies are shifting more of the cost of health insurance to their employees. It is a huge burden to millions of Americans.

[AP]

43. You could make the tax code more progressive more easily than

enact any kind of health care reform. And, you read the Krugman article. He said that the tax cuts for the middle class won't be the make or break budget item for any other budget item.

A better economy will pay for more health care than you'll gain by maintaining regressivity. A smaller percentage of a bigger pie will be worth more than a bigger bite of a smaller pie (and, anyway, we're talking about apportioning the burden -- if you need more many to pay for healthcare, get it from a progessively taxed source).

[sangh0]

55. The overwhelming majority of middle-class have health insurance

Most of those who have no insurance are low-income. If anything, the middle-class' problems with health care are drugs and rising premiums/reduced benefits.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. THIS IS POLICY..THIS IS NOT A BASH..THE GUY HAS AN ECONOMIC

background and a concern. AP does not run around slamming candidates on unfounded attacks! These are the ITEMS ALL of the candidates shoul be addressing.

I have read enough of Ap's posts to see that he IS TRYING to consider Dean but would like to resolve this issue

That is the PROBLEM with all the attack threads is people cannot recognize a specific policy and issues thread when they see it.

[sfecap]

18. Fair enough.

No need to shout...

[AP]

28. This issue is way more serious than people recognize.

It's no time for knee-jerk defenses of candidates (or criticisms).

It is very disturbing to read democrats make arguments about economic policy that are highly regressive.

[MercutioATC]

21. I certainly haven't seen that, but O.K.

I'm willing to give anybody (well, almost) the benefit of the doubt.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. A quick perusal of "Campaigns" forum confirms that AP challenges

Dean's proposals versus the manner in which Clinton dealt with taxes. That is a valid policy issue..not a hit and run issue.

That to me is what distinguishes TRASHING a candidate versus questioning which candidate has the better policy.

[zeemike]

14. I know this doesn’t mean much

But I don’t pay a lot of attention to what people say as much as how they say it.
I get feelings from people that come from I suppose, the tone of their voice and their demeanor. And my intuitions have served me well for most of my life.
I feel that Dean is genuine in his stated desire to change the system that has ruled this country for years. A system that rewards the rich and powerful while giving lip service to the rest of us, believing that we will just hear their words and believe it no matter what they actually do.
Until proven wrong, and I am not hard to convince with facts, I will stick to my intuitions.

[AP]

20. Change "Dean" with "Bush" and I swear I heard this sentiment 400 times

in 2000.

You better care about what he's talking about. Are you a Democrat, or what? What we're talking about is not only a core principle of being a Democrat (who bears the burdens and who reaps the rewards of society), but it's actually the issue put into highest relief by the Bush adminstration.

Bush's Job #1 is to shift the burdens to the middle and working class, and the benefits to the uppor class, and Dean can barely acknowledge this reality. It's frightening that this is passing for democratic discourse today, in 2003. Democrats may get lucky and win the battle in 2004, but we won't win the war if we don't take this issue VERY seriously. We cannot fix this economy if we don't adjust the burdens and benefits.

[alcuno]

26. I'm confused. Are you talking about Howard Dean?

"Dean can barely acknowledge this reality." That's not what I have heard.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7343

[sfecap]

27. AP...let me frame it this way...

I am one who will pay a whole bunch more in taxes is this "cut" is repealed.

I'm in the 35% bracket.

I'm fine with it. I'd rather pay more and see my dollars go to help our country by providing health care and social services to those who need them.

Bottom line, I will pay more. A lot more.

[AP]

29. But what about the middle class?

They're the ones with the huge burden?

[sfecap]

33. The middle class didn't get a cut!

It's fantasy.

[AP]

44. Presuming that were true (which I don't think it is), it doesn't

excuse Dean for having little interest in progressivity. In Philly, he said he was going to "reform" the tax code with targeted breaks for the poor. He said he wasn't going to give anything to the "upper middle class". To me, that's compassionate conservativism. Help the super poor keep their heads just above water, while making sure the middle class have all hands on the oars, and keep that whip cracking on the middle class.

Does anyone deny that this pretty much defines the state of American politics?

[zeemike]

40. You didn’t hear it from me

My opposition to bush goes way back to his father during the first “Desert Storm”
If they still existed, I could point you to threads where I predicated that W would be a disaster to this country. I have been posting on the net under the Zeeemike name for 7 or 8 years and I have a hard drive full of it.
I am just saying that my instincts have been accurate in the past and I will trust them for myself as long as I have no proof that I have been fooled. But you would be stupid to just go on my feelings, but wise to trust your own instincts.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

23. He hasn't even provided his tax plan yet...

I don't see how you can criticize his tax plan yet as he hasn't even rolled it out yet... that's not scheduled until October.

All we know about it so far is that he's going to repeal the Bush tax cuts, and after they're repealed he's going to remodel the tax code in a "bottoms up" approach... presumably repealing the Bush cuts will make it easier to do because he'll have a cleaner slate to work with...

But right now there's really no use in worrying about it without knowing the dimensions of the thing-- I TRUST that Dean's plan will make some sense when it's revealed in it's entirety-- that seems to be a common theme with this campaign doesn't it?

If the thing turns out to be as big a monstrocity as you fear, maybe some of us Dean supporters will start looking at your candidate more closely. Maybe you could stop worrying so much and keep us more informed about Edwards, haven't heard much about him recently...

[poskonig]

25. His tax ideas *do* make sense.

Bush is using Iraq and the tax cuts to bankrupt social security and medicare.

[stickdog]

37. Rest your fingers.

If Dean frightens you so much, how are you living through Bush?

Also, compare the tax system Dean presided over in VT to the rest of the states.

[Cheswick2.0]

56. it is not Dean's Tax plan Vrs Bush tax plan for goodness sake

it is Dean tax (economic plan) Vrs other democrat candidates tax plan. Maybe AP has a good point here. Why trade one fiscal conservative (Deans own words) for another?

If Dean is such a great candidate then let him come up with the best economic plan.I don't think his health plan goes far enough to solve that problem and unlike AP I am not an economic brain, however I am interested in the candidate who has the vision and guts to make real changes, not just the candidate who appears to be aggresive enough to beat bush.

[Starpass]

38. I'm frightened of Dean on another issue

No this isn't Dean bashing---I was going to make a post of this and probably will at some time. Yep, I'm a Kerry or Clark person but there was one thing that made my blood turn cold with Dean, and I didn't have this impression of any of our other 8 candidates. So, duh, I guess I have a right to question. I know that after the Chicago debate the AFL-CIO, in essence "chased" Dean down and he issued a "clarifiying statment of his position, etc.". They attacked Dean as a person who in the past has advocated that Social Security benefits (to help the system) be delayed until someone is 70. Sounds good and great..doesn't it, if you are 25. Point blank, you would do better if you just built ovens and put people in them or issued all a gun to blow their brains out. All the millions of Americans who have ss as their retirement because, gosh the loser slime didn't have a million dollar a year job, and who will be let go at about age 58 from their jobs because they don't want old people, cannot survive until 70. They can't draw on their wealth of investments to take them through---they were lucky to pay the rent all their lives; they have no investments. Anyone who proposes such stuff has no clue--and I mean NO CLUE a la Bush about real Americans. I need someone who knows by heart every position of this guy to tell me "what the hell is up here??"--I'm serious. I don't want somebody in the Presidency who might bring in outside help for Iraq, etc. BUT then turn around and kick the nuts of average Americans. I've heard about his "more love for repukes then Dems" in Vermont. If I had not heard that I would not have been so scared. But I don't like what I'm hearing....jesus all you people scream about the fucking DLC, well, this stuff smacks of ten yards right of the DLC. I want to know how he really stands on this issues. The AFL-CIO wasn't making stuff up---he replied and hemmed and hawed and said, "ahh, I think I said 68"---big fucking difference. Same result. I cannot stand it if someone is jerking around the average and poor people of this nation to get votes and then ends up like the vermin we now have in office.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. That's a very big issue considering the USSC has cleared the way for age

discrimination in the workplace as well.

[aquart]

45. Honey, they cleared the way for age discrimination long ago.

When they insisted you had to show proof of citizenship in order to apply for a job. All the proof has true age on it.

So the dye and the facelifts mean nothing. The employer knows who's old for sure.

[AP]

49. You don't need to know a person's precise age to discriminate based

on age.

n..s...m...m is referring to a recent Supreme Court decision which decided that age is not a category deserving special protection. Any law discriminating against someone based on age that's reasonably related to a rational purpose is constitutional.

[Upfront]

50. Worry?

If that is your big worry in todays world, you may not be paying attention. I do think it is a Dean bash attempt by you. He has said he once felt raising age to 70 might be needed, but now thinks there are better ways. He has mentioned removing the 87000.00 income cap. I like that idea better myself. Oh, Clark looks very good, but your man Kerry is going nowhere. Go Dean!

[hedgetrimmer]

51. dean is not questioned, dean has the answers, you don't ask dean

dean tells you ... anything else shatters the charisma ... dean is the money dog... the economic guru.... the mantra of kerry... the most revolutionary campaigner in the last 100 years... and the mac-daddy of song selection...

[stickdog]

53. "Dean, dean, dean, dean, dean" John Kerry (NT)

[Evanstondem]

52. Dean and Edwards on Taxes

Both Dean and Edwards make some good points on taxes, and I see that you have borrowed some points from an Edwards speech on the topic. Your comments about Dean, however, make no sense.

[AP]

54. If you tell me which point you don't understand, I'll explain it

As for Edwards, if you read back in the archives, you'll see that my comments on taxes precede Edwards's candidacy. Perhaps he's borrowing ideas from me? Or perhaps they're so obvious, it's not a surprise that, if you care about Bush's shifting of the burden to the real engines of economic growth (the working and middle class), you'd say that the tax burden needs to be allocated more progressively.

[PAMod]

57. If we go back to the rates & brackets, etc...

that were in place in January 2001, that would be a return to sane tax policy, wouldn't it?

Isn't that what Dean is advocating?

I never heard anyone complaining about their tax burden (except the wealthy, maybe) back then.

The real problem Dean has is that raising taxes is always harder not raising them. In other words (forget about their dubious effect on the economy - that's another argument) if the tax cuts had not occurred, no one would even be talking about it.

It's a perception problem more than a real economic problem.

[AP]

58. If Bill C were running today, do you really think his economic plan...

...would be "give me the tax structure I was able to get after 6 years of compromise with a Republican Congress"?

OF COURSE NOT!

Clinton would be running on the same themes that one him election in 92 and 96: Republicans want to shift the entire burden of running the government on the working and middle class, while shifting all the benefits to the rich. He would promise to shift the burdens so that they apportioned fairly. Clinton was down with progressive taxation and helping the middle class in order to make the economy more efficient. I don't think Dean is down with that at all.

[AP]

59. Here is the account of Philladelphia fundraiser

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=306716

And here's the account of Dean's position on taxation as of September 9, 2003 :

3. Tax reform- repeal the entire Bush tax cut first (because a partial repeal would leave too much in play politically and would
transfer the benefits of the tax cuts from the rich to the upper middle class- likely leading to no additional revenue to balance the
budget and deal with health care) Only then deal with tax reform, he avoided specifics of the program as he is rolling it out in a
few weeks. But I asked him what policy goals would shape his tax reform and he answered that tax reform should be target at
relieving the burden on the poorest. "Bottom up" tax relief. It was great to see him make this statement. Most tax releief aimed at
the poor is actually aimed at special interests or modifying the behavior of the poor, so it was nice not to hear the issue framed in
those terms. Just a simple premise- you should payt less taxes on the first dollar you earn than the millionth.

[PAMod]

62. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm obviously not an economist.

But, just as obviously, the deficit has to be brought under control.

[AP]

64. This isn't a question of whether, it's a question of HOW the defecit

should be reduced, and progressive taxation is a key tool to reducing the defecit.

The middle and working classes are the engines of the economy. You just cannot put a disproportionately large tax burden on them and expect them to pull America out of this death spiral.

This is what Dean won't talk about.

[PAMod]

66. If you don't repeal all of the tax cuts, how much...

would you have to raise the top rate(s) to give us a workable revenue number? I'm not taking into account what spending would have to be cut, I'm just curious what would be necessary.

I favor a progressive tax structure, btw; it not only seems the most "fair", but it places the revenue burden on those who are best equipped to pay.

I did not realize how long we have had a regressive tax code, and I'm saying that most of the people in the country (and perhaps, on DU) were not aware of it either.

I just know that I didn't hear any complaints about it until Dumbya came into the picture. Maybe it was the satisfaction that our "house was in order" until Bush.

[sangh0]

60. No, it would not be sane tax policy

It would be regressive because under that tax structure, the rich pay taxes at a lower rate than the middle class.

[AP]

61. Yes. Why are Democrats falling for such transparent spin?

Or, I should say, why are Democrats perpetrating such transparent spin.

Every counterargument I see on this point just makes me sad.

[farmbo]

63. I'm keen on Dean, but AP's got a point

Every chance I get to talk to Burlington, I try to evangelize them on cutting the Payroll tax.

If they repeal "all" of the Bush tax cut, there will be some increase for middle class taxpayers in the areas of income tax and the marriage penalty.

Why not offset this with a cut in the payroll tax? This would define the contrast between GOP and Democratic tax policy, stop the transfer of wealth to the upper 1%, and...(drumroll, please)...create JOBS!

This would not constitute a flip- flop on his current position, since he could still go back to Clinton's income and dividend tax policy.

We can't win if our tax policy is simply: "eat your broccolli and shut up"... we need to give working class taxpayers a little desert.