The question about abortion isn't really a question at all, is it?

[Modem Butterfly]

We can argue legalities or illegalities all damn day. But at the end of it all, we will never do away with abortion. Women have been having abortions as long as they have been getting pregnant. Women will do terrible things to themselves, and to each other, to stop being pregnant if they don't want to be pregnant. Women will spend all their money finding a back-alley abortionist. Women will flee the country. Women will drink poison, throw themselves down the stairs, and stick coathangers and knitting needles up their cervixes if they have to. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, there is no law on earth that can stop her from trying to not be pregnant anymore.

The question is not whether or not abortion should happen. Abortion will ALWAYS happen. The question is how safe will those abortions be.

[Hissyspit]

1. Well, of course...

Funny how this issue always gets left out of the arguments.

Criminalizing abortion does not stop abortions, it only creates criminals.

[fat free goodness]

10. Not a very good argument.

RE: “Criminalizing abortion does not stop abortion, it only creates criminals”. The simple comeback is to replace “abortion” with “murder” or "theft." Why make murder illegal? Or theft? Such things will still go on, so all we do is make the perpetrators criminals.
You may argue that there is a world of difference between a scared 18 year old taking a morning after pill, and choosing to murder someone for their wallet. The person you are arguing with will likely disagree. Many who think abortion is wrong truly believe it is the same as killing a child. You will never persuade someone who believes this that it is someone’s right to choose, nor should you expect them to compromise. Someone who would compromise while really believing it is infanticide would be so morally despicable that I would question dealing with them at all.
The disagreement is not one of rights, it is one of fact… is a fetus a person, or not? If it is a person at some point, when does it become a person?

[Old and In the Way]

13. is a fetus a person, or not?

No, it's a potential person.

If it is a person at some point, when does it become a person?

When the host decides that they want to turn the potential into actual.

The problem is arguing with people who want to turn cells into children. The logical progression of this faulty thinking means women could be arrested for manslaughter if they abort the fetus for whatever reason.

[Modem Butterfly]

14. Hey, it works for the gun nuts, right?

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

When abortions are outlawed, women will go to back-alley or DIY abortionists.

Huh. Has a snappy ring to it.

[Lindacooks]

16. Fine. They can keep on believing that all they want, but they have to

MIND THEIR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!

The problem arises when these self-righteous jerks think they can force their morals down somebody else's throat. You can think and believe whatever you want. But you can NOT force another person to live the way you want them to.

[Hugin]

2. Very good...

Peace.

:)

[gollygee]

3. Absolutely

I was telling my husband about this last night when I read a story about a young woman who gave herself an abortion so her parents wouldn't find out about her pregnancy. Young women - girls really - talk about this. I think all women know how to give themselves an abortion - and when a person is desperate terrible things can happen.

It isn't like making abortion illegal keeps it from happening.

Edit - to clarify, it was a fictional short story so there is no news article to link to.

[Modem Butterfly]

4. Years ago, Whoopi Goldberg had a routine about that

It included a harsh, and harshly funny, bit on giving herself an abortion only to wake up in the hospital and have a young doctor tell her, "But don't worry, we managed to save the baby,"

[izzie]

5. Well I with you, but the right would be happy to see her die, Or

I guess that is how they feel. Even when they should not have a child they want her to have it. The seed seems to be the thing with them. Heck they do not even want the morning after pill.The right will not stop them just make them unsafe once more.

[jdj]

6. the right wants her punished.

because it coulda been tha baby jesus.

Damn, once they outlaw abortion and kill all the gays, what the hell will their politicians run on then?

[Withywindle]

8. Let's be honest about what they really mean

Because it could be a baby MAN!


And even a potential, theoretical MAN is so much more valuable than an actual woman. Especially if she's...done that...and is dirty damaged goods anyway.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Good point

But don't forget the kinky pleasure they get from controlling other human beings.

[prairierose]

7. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.....

I allowed myself to get suked into an argument about this recently & I've been smacking my head ever since. How could I have forgotten that this is the reality?

[loudestchick]

9. For the pro-birth crowd it's about punishing women for enjoying sex.

When they include an exemption for rape and incest, what they are really talking about is a womans choice to engage in sex.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Perhaps that's why so many advocate elimiating exemptions

Talk about scarey!

[loudestchick]

22. I hadn't noticed alot of them wanting to get rid of the "exemptions"

'cause if they did...the fringes would revolt.

[Modem Butterfly]

23. They've been talking about it for awhile now

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life005.html

http://www.catholicsfordemocracy.org/node/view/948

Certainly, Bush is more opposed to abortion than Dean, but he does support unacceptable exemptions for rape and incest.

http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1377

"There are many hundreds, if not thousands of women who have been raped and carried that pregnancy, and had the baby and have been very happy that they’ve done that," he said. ". . . I still feel very strongly that even as tragic as some of those circumstances are, they have been a blessing to many, many people."

http://www.marchforlife.org/rape/page24.htm

Abortion-murderers may not torture and kill any innocent preborn child -- no matter how conceived. Abortion-murderers may not use our passion against rape as a driving wedge to assault and rape our country of Constitutional protection for the unalienable and paramount right to life of each innocent human being in existence at fertilization.

[loudestchick]

25. I don't go to those places. Thanks for the schooling. no sarcasm.

[recoveringrepublican]

15. Well that's one good question, but a better question is

how to make abortions less needed. My answers are education, a living wage, universal health care, better sex education, etc.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Abortions have always been necessary.

Likely they will always be necessary. We can hope to mak them less frequent, but, as anyone who's ever had an abortion can attest, abortions are always necessary.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. Abortions have always been necessary.

Likely they will always be necessary. We can hope to mak them less frequent, but, as anyone who's ever had an abortion can attest, abortions are always necessary.

[EST]

20. Hear, hear, dammit!

[Mend]

19. There will be tons of how-to abortion sites

on the web, and shop-on-line for RU-486. They will never stop abortion and I doubt women will have to go back to coathangers....BTW, abortions went way up under bush compared to Clinton; amazing what a lousy economy will do to the unborn.

[Lindacooks]

21. You're absolutely right. This is a private issue, so private

that it's impossible to make illegal.

And how, exactly, does the anti-choice crowd plan to enforce this law?

Are they going to make all women submit to a test once a month to see if they're pregnant?

Are we going to be reduced to that slimy piece of legislation introduced last month that would charge a woman with a crime if she didn't report a miscarriage to the police within 12 hours?

Are there going to be court fights and medical tests over whether a miscarriage is truly that, or was an attempted abortion?

The problem is this is such a private thing, involving the workings of someone's body, that there is NO way to make it go away. Never will happen, ever. Criminalizing it just adds to the pain and doesn't accomplish one damn thing.

[cally]

24. Exactly

But your argument is way too rational. Makes sense so let's ignore the reality. :eyes:

[KT2000]

26. But rich women will have doctors

who perform abortions just like they always have.

Women and girls were dying from unsafe abortions before Roe v Wade. That was made clear at the time and people seemed to accept that a woman should be free to make that choice for herself. It wasn't anyone elses business whether they approved or not.

You are right - a fact of life is that women will do drastic things to stop an unwanted pregnancy.

[thefloyd]

27. You bring up good points

Bush will never try and overturn Roe Vs Wade. Bush does not have the political balls.