I never realized how persecuted White men are until I saw this graph!

[trumad]

[Nitrogenica]

1. It must be rough!

[w13rd0]

2. at least we know the mantra...

...of no taxation without representation worked for them. they seem quite well represented, and they STILL whine about the taxes ;)

[ClintonTyree]

3. Those poor white folks can never catch a break....................

the man's always holding them down! :puke:

[Gman]

4. One more bar would tell the entire story

the percentage of all wealth in the country owned by white men.

[goddess40]

8. I think we all know what that would look like nt

[RC]

5. Maybe, just maybe

If if we had more women and non-whites we could all get along better?

[BrklynLiberal]

6. One of those things that makes women go "whaaat?"

:eyes:

[PleadTheFirst]

7. Reminds me of the bumper sticker I had in college:

"I used to be a white American, but I gave it up in the interest of Humanity." :)

[Huckebein the Raven]

15. Did you get any odd looks with that bumper sticker ?

just curious

[PleadTheFirst]

18. Yeah ...

But I was a pale white kid (Irish descent) with a mohawk living in a very Cuban area of Miami. I think I would have gotten the strange looks regardless of my bumper stickers. :)

[babylonsister]

9. Very odd that, up til now, this thread has been

responded to primarily by men. Yeah, persecuted my heiny!:)

Edited for clarity. Brain slowing down...

[donheld]

16. Who's percecutin' your heiny?

:spank:

i as a white man feel dreadfully abused :cry::eyes: :cry::eyes::cry::eyes:

[babylonsister]

17. Actually, no one at the moment.

My heiny is absolutely fine!But thanks for askin'!

[jdots]

10. thats proof of this mongrel country

We will not be satisfied until the master race has exterminated all non caucasions.Then we exterminate all of those book readers for there is only one book.....bla bla bla .......devolution .

[havocmom]

11. Wow, now I understand how come so many white guys you meet are pissed off

all the time! They aren't in Congress getting plum deals from corporations and have to make honest livings the old fashioned way!

So glad to have that sorted out in my little pea brain!

[babylonsister]

12. Wow, you really are from Really Pissed Off!

I'm taking this with a grain of salt.

Oh, crap, thought we were in the lounge!:D

[entanglement]

13. How about CEOs

of Fortune 500 companies, billionaires, movie producers / directors, tenured university faculty, generals in the military? I'm sure white guys make up >90% of all these categories.

[livinginphotographs]

14. I'm so oppressed.

Look at that! We should have over 100%. No, over 200%! Poor, poor white men! We have it so rough!

[Yuugal]

19. I never realized how persecuted black people were

until my cracker ass applied for tuition assistance in 1982 because my family was lucky to keep food on the table for 5 kids. I was told to go scratch because I was white but my black neighbor got a free ride all the way through at govt expense. Same income.

What really pisses me off about people whining about "the white man" is that they are living in the past. My generation didn't have discrimination.....we had reverse-discrimination which was just as evil. MY wife was sent to kindergarten the first year they had busing. Even though her backyard bordered her local school she was bussed into another town far away at 5 yrs old. Her parents sacrificed alot to have the house they were in because it was very important to them to be very close to the local school. All that meant nothing because it was so important to be "fair". At that time "fair" meant......MAKE THEM WHITE DEVILS PAY HAHAHAHAHAH!

School wasn't the end of it though. Many many many of my friends who wanted to be police or firemen had ZERO chance because of quotas. The same went for alot of the big company hiring too around here. Not black? "BYE, sorry, we need to be 'fair'".

When the democratic party wonders why a whole generation of young white males in my age group have tuned them out forever........its because the Dems always come off as people who just hate whitey and whose policies were just as racist and as unfair as what they were trying to correct.

Why not just type, "I hate whitey" and be done with it? The graph you should be showing is net worth of congressmen. Many people here keep falling for the same damn tired old trick used against us poor people since the beginning of time: the rich play the race card to split us up so we don't see that they are the problem.

[autorank]

20. Welcome to DU!!! It is a matter of BOTH class and race.

And the Republicans have jumped on the racial conflict, racial identity issue to keep whites voting Republican. I'm always interested in why people in this country DON'T vote their pocket books. It was so obvious in this election. I don't think its just that the Democrats supported civil rights and failed to manage that support to benefit ALL Americans. I think there are a bunch of uninformed people out there who would rather vote their prejudice, fears, sense of victim hood than their own interests or those of the country. I recommend you look at Red State tour on www.truthout.org. Some of the Virginia interviews are great. White waitress, minimum wage, no health insurance says it's * for her because he's a good Christian. Asked her greatest concern, she says it's health care, she has none. What does Bush think about that? Well, she doesn't know. There are many of us in this country who remain willingly caged in a system that directly harms them BY CHOICE and by ignorance (no health insurance is a big problem, you suffer and die) .

I think that busing was not the main cure yet it was the most touted. Equal funding for all schools did not exist in the 50's/60's and it hasn't since then. That's the real outrage. Of course, that would cost money.

But don't blame the Democrats for offending the sensibilities of people who consistently ignore their own benefit because they're pissed about this or that racial issue. They are the great suckers of the last 40 years, depriving themselves and their families just to be pissed off and pout.

[Yuugal]

21. I don't blame the dems just for that

"But don't blame the Democrats for offending the sensibilities of people who consistently ignore their own benefit because they're pissed about this or that racial issue."

To me, reverse discrimination was a real factor in my life. Some people got a free ride but I had to work 2 jobs to get through because I was white and poor and not black and poor. The basic plan was to punish my generation of white kids to make up for the sins of slave owners. It succeeded but not in the way dems thought. I always laugh when people wonder why there are so many right wing nutjobs in such a liberal state as NY. The answer is that alot of them are my age and they are too young to remember discrimination against blacks but they sure remember when they couldn't get a job because their 99 on the aptitude test was nullified by some guy with darker skin who scored a 60.

There are millions of these angry white males around who bitterly remember reverse discrimination against them just as there are millions of older blacks who will never forget how bad it was for them growing up. What really pisses me off is when minorities who are the same age or younger than me(39) start whining about discrimination. They had the same schools as me, same classes, same teacher, and could get a free ride through college when my dad, who played by the rules and worked hard at a low paying job.....was considered the enemy. Yup, my liberal dad, the same guy who taught me that everyone's shit smells just as bad and to never listen to anyone who thinks they are "better" than anyone else. How he reconciled the fact that the party he supported screwed his family over so badly is beyond me. But here I am voting dem my whole life also and now I wonder sometimes just what the hell I'm supporting when there are always so many "I hate whitey" threads like this one. Not just on this board, but in our whole society.

During the holidays I posted a cynical response to someone's post about persecuted xtians. I compared Jesus to Santa point by point and since I'm an atheist I certainly supported Santa for bringing home the bacon year after year while Jeebus just hangs there and looks sad. Sure maybe it wasn't funny to fundies but I felt I had the right to post my views on the holidays since all the religious types were starting thread after thread after thread about xmas. That posted lasted about 10 seconds before it was deleted because GAWD forbid we offend someone religious. But yet this blatantly racist thread can hang in space on this board forever because it insults the one group that its ok to hate: MINE.

[autorank]

22. Jesus to Santa comparison...simply hilarious. Excellent

Well, keep voting Dem or * will fuck us all and laugh all the way to the bank. I don't underestimate what you're saying. Part of the problem is the "finite" size of the economic pie. Remember the old "Phillips Curve" from economics (it's about the ONLY thing I remember). It was acceptable to believe that we needed 4.5% unemployment or there would be inflation. I asked my esteemed professor what he thought that meant for the 4.5% unemployed and he said he didn't understand the question. What an asshole (and he gave me a D!). This 4.5% is white, brown, black but it's disprortionately black and brown.

I don't think there is much left of the heyday civil rights programs, including voting rights (another way we ALL get screwed). As for the "same schools," despite your obvious intelligence, that is simply not the case in the aggregate. Black, schools suck and it's because they're not funded properly or undefunded.

I'm white but I don't really think of it as my identity. I'm more identified with what I do, who I hang with, what I believe in. Makes things a lot easier and, after all, on St. Paddy's Day, I can always claim to be Irish.

Take care!

[fishwax]

52. How is this a "hate whitey" thread?

I just don't see it. People have pointed out that the majority of the powerful in this country are white men. The majority of the rich people in this country are white men. A far higher percentage of African-Americans live in poverty than white Americans. It's not hating whitey to point that out.

And while I am sorry for the injustices you've apparently suffered, but it's simply inaccurate to say that "minorities who are the same age or younger than me(39) ... had the same schools as me, same classes, same teacher, and could get a free ride through college."

I agree with you that poverty and rich v poor should be central to the discussion, and that the powerful have used race for centuries to divide the poor (and thus protect their own collective ass), but you seem to be buying into the division.

[ultraist]

54. Oh, boo fucking hoo! Poor white males have been so discriminated against!

Is that why nearly 90% of Congress is comprised of white males and 95% of top CEOs are white males?

It looks to me that there are not ENOUGH Affirmative Action type programs. The playing field is still very UNlevel!

BTW, the POOREST segment of our society are black females. Hmmm...

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

100. Maybe you should try to figure out why

you choose to explicitly blame democrats and implicitly blame black people for negative events in your life. I'm sorry, but given the reality on the ground, so to speak, "The basic plan was to punish my generation of white kids to make up for the sins of slave owners" (as you said earlier) isn't really a logical explanation.

[GOPFighter]

139. Angry White Males...

...break my frickin' heart. Boo hoo.

I'm a white male too. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember segregation, extreme prejudice, and the pure damn hatred directed at blacks who aspired to be more than a second class citizen. Even the word citizen stretches the truth. Blacks in many parts of the country had NO rights at all. None. They had no standing in court, they could not vote, they were treated like dirt.

As a young man I worked in a factory with Klan members. They once bragged about hanging a black man in a railroad car...his body was eventually found in Michigan City, Indiana. Yeah, hah hah hah, that was a real knee slapper to them. Yeah, you could do this back in the 50s and get away with it...because the victims were just n!

Have you ever seen the footage of the angry white mob spitting and cursing the little black girls walking to their integrated school? Has an angry mob ever done that to your little girls? Have you ever seen pictures of lynched blacks, pictures of dead freedom fighters? What about the little girls who were dynamited in the black church? You don't think every other black parent in the South knew their kids could be next? You think every black anywhere in the U.S. knew they were fair game for any white idiot who needed a focus for their anger?

Maybe, too, it's because my wife is black and I have seen discrimination up close and personal - in the 2000s! Yes, I was skeptical until I saw it for myself. Discrimination is still alive and well, my friend, and after seeing what black folks have had to endure for generations I'm just having a lot of trouble with white people who don't understand why the Democratic Party is committed to programs to help overcome this?

It's a shame the Republicans have decided to use these programs to inflame middle-class and working class whites into thinking THEY are the aggrieved ones. Reverse discrimination? God, you don't even know what discrimination is. I don't mean to attack you personally, Yuugal, but I would be willing to bet that if you were given the chance to trade places with the black neighbor who had his tuition paid while you had to hump for yourself, you would not have done it. Be honest now, if white males are so discriminated against, how many do you think would trade places with a black male, or female, of similar age, health, and economic status? I'd like to know.

[Carolinian]

28. Amen. It's rich v poor, not black v white.

[kwassa]

137. Hardly. You apparently never heard of "White Privilege"

white privilege, a social relation
1. a. A right, advantage, or immunity granted to or enjoyed by white persons beyond the common advantage of all others; an exemption in many particular cases from certain burdens or liabilities.
b. A special advantage or benefit of white persons; with reference to divine dispensations, natural advantages, gifts of fortune, genetic endowments, social relations, etc.

(many more definitions here)

http://www.whiteprivilege.com/


here is a good essay on the subject:

WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S.
Robert Jensen
School of Journalism
University of Texas


http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm

[Vladimir]

42. Well there is this issue of class

and you are right to say that it should be the overriding issue - but that does not mean that positive discrimination is racist. The problem you had with getting into university wasn't the black kid who got a 'free ride' at the government's expense, it was the rich, almost invariably white, kids who bought their way in and grades be damned. The solution is of course simple but no American government will ever pay for it: if you pass the entrance exam, the government pays for your education - no questions asked.

The thing with positive discrimination is that it only makes sense if its a part of the solution, not the whole solution. Once you have a progressive way of paying for education set up, then it makes sense to use it. A poor black kid who does as well as a poor white kid, having faced issues of racialy prejudice and discrimination on top of the class prejudice, can be regarded as showing more potential. That does not mean you would be denied an education, just possibly not at your first choice college. But its not an issue that would affect most people. And there should damn well be positive discrimination in favour of kids who went to shitty schools as opposed to expensive preppy ones too. Quotas are too crude for that, which is why I find them counterproductive, but more subtle systems would help both you and your neighbour.

[Mystified]

112. "Positive Discrimination"

That is an absolutely brilliant phrase. It almost makes discrimination sound like a good thing. Would that be akin to "Compassionate Conservatism"?

[Bouncy Ball]

156. No because compassionate conservatism

is actually a big bald faced lie.

[mark414]

67. i hate whitey

well no, i don't, cause i'm white.

but you're trying to talk about a world where everyone is equal and that just isn't the case. no discrimination in your generation? that's bullshit and you know it. people these days seem to have conveniently forgotten what they were fighting for in the civil rights days and seem to think "well hey they got that voting rights act so that must mean there's no more racism anymore."

come to milwaukee and walk around some of the black neighborhoods and try to tell me that discrimination doesn't exist. go down south where the confederates still fly their flags high and tell me that discrimination doesn't exist.

there is no such thing as reverse discrimination because YOU CANNOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST THE GROUP THAT HOLDS THE POWER. it's the equivalent of getting on the case of a serf for discriminating against his lord. it just can't happen.

affirmative action is actually a very conservative idea when you think about it, as it doesn't do anything to radically change the way the system is set up, rather, it accepts how the system is and just takes a couple steps to "try" to correct it.

forgive me for saying this, but you have nothing to whine about my friend.

[ck4829]

140. Also note that the vast majority of people in government say that they...

are Christian.

The Christian Right is REALLY persecuted. Not!

[ck4829]

141. I did it again. I meant to reply to the original post. Sorry

[Logansquare]

145. Trumad, the thread works just like fly paper! n/t

[jmm]

155. Your generation "didn't have discrimination"

What glorious generation are you part of of?

Even having a name that sounds black on an application today will make you less likely to get a call back from a prospective employer. If it wasn't for situations like that there wouldn't be a need for quotas. Were your friends really trying to work in areas where there was not one single white fireman or police officer? I highly doubt your friends had ZERO chance. Most likely they were lied to about the real reason they weren't hired. It's easier to tell someone listen I can't hire you because of affirmative action then you weren't qualified.

[hfojvt]

23. and that proves what?

myself, my dad, and Senator Herb Kohl are all white males. Further than that Herb Kohl and my dad both graduated from the University of Wisconsin in 1956. They have more in common than just being white males, but did that confer any special priveleges on my dad when he was bicycling to work in the 1980s? Not hardly.
There are 114,470,000 white males in this country. The fact that 500 of them are in Congress does not necessarily do anything for the rest of them, especially not for the 10,830,000 who are below the poverty line or the 4,361,000 below half of the poverty line or even the 16,180,000 below 130% of the poverty line. True, those percentages are "only" 9.5%, 3.8%, and 14.1% which are much lower than the 24.4% of blacks which are living below the poverty line, but the raw numbers are higher. There are 11,584,000 blacks living below 130% of the poverty line, about 4.5 million less than the number of white males. Go figure. The fact that a high percentage of rich people are white males, does not provide food, clothing, housing or health care for the rest of the white male population. The whole working class, white males included, has faced stagnant wages and reduced benefits and more stress. So they, also, have some reason to be angry.

[UdoKier]

24. Wow. So the fact that most of the couple hundred congresspeople are white

... somehow means that MOST white men are privileged? White men may be less likely to be poor, but a very significant percentage ARE poor, those of us who were not born with a silver spoon in our mouths.

I get kinda sick of being told that I'm somehow privileged just by virtue of being a white guy, when I wasn't born with shit, and I still don't have much, and I work my ass off.


I really wish that the congress better reflected the demographic makeup of this country, but the implication that its being stacked with white men makes life easy for the rest of us somehow is false.

[trumad]

25. You guys crack me up

this thread was started in reference to posts that I've seen about how us white guys are so persecuted. Try walking in the shoes of a black man for 10 minutes and you'll beg to be white again. You couldn't handle it...

Sit in a corporate boardroom as the only woman and realize that your 10 times smarter than 95 percent of the guys in the room and the only reason that you're not a VP is that you have size 34 breasts.

Oh but we cry reverse discrimiation...Bwwaaaaaa.. That's a cop out excuse for silly ass whining white men who simply aren't smart enough to take advantage of a country run by errrr White Men!

[UdoKier]

30. I'm not claiming persecution. But your implication is just as false.

And poor whites are harassed by cops and otherwise held down, whether you believe it or not.

"That's a cop out excuse for silly ass whining white men who simply aren't smart enough to take advantage of a country run by errrr White Men!"

May you be born the child of a poor white laid-off coal miner in Appalachia in your next life.

A lot of the homeless are white. I guess they're all just "too stupid" too.

[UdoKier]

34. Hmm...

"this thread was started in reference to posts that I've seen about how us white guys are so persecuted."

I don't claim to be persecuted. But I object to being called ":privileged."

"Try walking in the shoes of a black man for 10 minutes and you'll beg to be white again. You couldn't handle it..."

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean I'm "privileged".

"Sit in a corporate boardroom as the only woman and realize that your 10 times smarter than 95 percent of the guys in the room and the only reason that you're not a VP is that you have size 34 breasts."

Well, the vice president of my company is a well-paid woman, as is the Account Exec I work under. Maybe my workplace is exceptional, but I've never seen them being treated as anything but professionals at work. I'm very happy for their success, but I have not seen leering, groping, and the glass ceiling to be the norm at MY company. (But I realize there are companies with a very poor climate in this area - Wal-Mart comes to mind...)

"Oh but we cry reverse discrimiation...Bwwaaaaaa.."

I don't claim reverse discrimination. I just don't like being called "privileged" when I am not.

"That's a cop out excuse for silly ass whining white men who simply aren't smart enough to take advantage of a country run by errrr White Men"

I really wish that was true. I wish that being white as a ticket to easy street, because I would ride that bus for sure. Comments like this totally disregard the very real struggle of working-class white people in this country to stay afloat as the jobs they have depended on are all being moved overseas.

[trumad]

36. Well good for you...

[Stuckinthebush]

29. As a fellow white man

I can tell you that indeed, you are privileged.

Sure, you don't feel it because of the rich v. poor dynamic, but you are still privileged.

When you walk into a bank or convenience store, people don't look at you out of the corner of their eye to make sure you aren't up to something.

If you won the lottery tomorrow, you could buy a house anywhere you wanted without worrying that your neighbors would feel that the you are "invading".

If you got enough backers and raised enough cash, you stand a better chance at successfully running for political office.

You could be a guest of any of your white friends at their golf course or country club without the slightest sideways look from other members.

While it doesn't feel like it, you still have a better chance at getting a job than a similarly qualified black man.

You will be served at Denny's or Shoney's or Waffle House without question.

Your children will likely not be prejudged as needing remedial assistance in school.

You are less likely to be pulled over by a cop after dark.

You will receive more lenient sentences if you happen to commit a crime.

You are less likely to receive the death penalty if you murder someone.

When you walk onto a Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus lot, you are more likely to get a salesperson to initiate a conversation.

And on...and on......

My friend, while it may not feel like it sometimes, you and I are privileged in this society. We freakin' own the world. The class/money barrier can be breached, but the race barrier can never be breached. I am willing to bet that even Clarence Thomas gets sideways glances at a convenience store.

Centuries of oppression can not be erased by a few decades of affirmative action. I, too, have lost contracts/jobs because a company was looking for a non-white candidate. While it pissed me off at the time, I turned around and was successful in other attempts - probably more so than my non-white colleagues.

There is a great book that I recommend. It is called "Whiteness: A Critical Reader" edited by Hill. It is a set of essays discussing whiteness and privilege. You might enjoy it.

[UdoKier]

31. I am NOT privileged.

"Sure, you don't feel it because of the rich v. poor dynamic, but you are still privileged."

Whatever.

"When you walk into a bank or convenience store, people don't look at you out of the corner of their eye to make sure you aren't up to something."

Sure they do, all the time.

"If you won the lottery tomorrow, you could buy a house anywhere you wanted without worrying that your neighbors would feel that the you are "invading"."

That's probably true, but in most areas, the neighbors don't feel that way about new minority neighbors who can afford to live there. It's more about money than color these days.

"If you got enough backers and raised enough cash, you stand a better chance at successfully running for political office."

The vast majority of politicians are rich when they fist run for office.

"You could be a guest of any of your white friends at their golf course or country club without the slightest sideways look from other members."

Not in the sorry-ass clothes I wear. I would NOT fit in in a country club.

"While it doesn't feel like it, you still have a better chance at getting a job than a similarly qualified black man."

Probably, but in some cases, the black man would have the better shake due to Affirmative Action. I don't have a problem with AA, but it is a fact.

"You will be served at Denny's or Shoney's or Waffle House without question."

Really? Next time I'm in the mood to eat swill I'll check that out. I'll bet Denny's treats black customers a lot better after losing that huge class action suit a dew years ago.

"Your children will likely not be prejudged as needing remedial assistance in school."

My older son is getting remedial assistance, my younger one is exceptionally bright. Are you accusing their teachers of bias for no reason, too? BTW, my kids are white/asian mixed, and before living in a majority Asian area, were singled out for being of Asian descent. (They weren't bullied, but the other kids found it to be amusing.)

"You are less likely to be pulled over by a cop after dark."

Probably. The fact that I obey traffic laws probably has even more to do with that.

"You will receive more lenient sentences if you happen to commit a crime."

Probably. Unfortunately the justice system has a ways to go. But I also tend to stay clear of situations that could somehow escalate into my being involved with the justice system (IE going to drag races, wild parties, etc.) I've never been arrested, and have no intention of ever being arrested.

"You are less likely to receive the death penalty if you murder someone."

Again, yes, it's applied unfairly. That doesn't mean I'm "lucky" not to be on death row. I haven't committed a crime.

"When you walk onto a Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus lot, you are more likely to get a salesperson to initiate a conversation."

If you say so. I'm pretty sure the salesperson would ignore me in my sad-sack old clothes.


The fact that one class of people is getting the shaft more of the time does not make another class that gets the shaft somewhat less "privileged".

Bush and his cronies are privileged. Children born into homes that put a lot of energy into their education and pay for their college are privileged.

Poor whites are not privileged.


"My friend, while it may not feel like it sometimes, you and I are privileged in this society. We freakin' own the world. The class/money barrier can be breached, but the race barrier can never be breached. I am willing to bet that even Clarence Thomas gets sideways glances at a convenience store."

Speak for yourself. I don't own anything. I've been busting my ass for years and getting nowhere. I don't own my home, and don't expect to anytime soon. I have no health insurance.

"Centuries of oppression can not be erased by a few decades of affirmative action. I, too, have lost contracts/jobs because a company was looking for a non-white candidate. While it pissed me off at the time, I turned around and was successful in other attempts - probably more so than my non-white colleagues."

I'm not pissed off about AA. I think it should be more about alleviating poverty than trying to make up for slavery and discrimination. I think people of color who need it should benefit. People of color whose parents have money, who send them to college, etc. should not get it. And the kind of Affirmative Action Bush benefitted from should be BANNED. He had no business going to Yale. Maybe Midland Community College...

AA should strictly be for people from a disadvantaged background.

[DrWeird]

38. "poor whites are not privileged"

They are when compared to poor minorities.

[lukasahero]

39. Bloody brilliant! Thank you! eom

[geniph]

75. That's hitting the nail squarely on the head, Dr. Weird

The moneyed will always be at the top of the hierarchy, whatever their gender or race, but there is unquestionably a hierarchy of the working class, too. A poor white male still has advantages that a poor black man can only dream of having. Let alone a poor black woman.

[pnb]

87. And that helps poor whites how?

I'm sorry but if a poor white person is basically told they have no right to complain about anything because other poor people exist, even if those people are more poor, they should tell that person basically to just STFU.

"Hey Mr. White Guy, we're going to have to amputate your legs"

"Oh my lord, that is horrible!!!"

"But black amputees have it tougher"

"Oh well, I guess its not so bad then"


That is the tone of this thread and that post.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

97. No the analogy is more like this:

"Hello Mr. White, you have a 10% chance we are going to amputate your leg"

"That's horrible!!"

"well, you are lucky. That black guy over there has a 25% chance of ending up being amputated. That hispanic guy over there has a 23% chance of being amputated. You have far more hope than they do you'll make it through this ok."


"WHAT??!?!? He's taking away a chance of MINE!!! REVERSE RACISM!!!"

[pnb]

111. You're missing the whole point of my analogy though

The guy with the 10% chance of losing is leg is concerned about his leg. He could care less about other people's legs...nor should he in this case because it doesn't change anything directly regarding his leg. His 10% chance is a 10% chance, regardless of anyone else's.

[mark414]

68. wow

you are wrong on so many levels

wake up dude, this country is teeming with racism and you denying all of it only makes things worse

psh liberal my ass

[fishwax]

74. Where did he deny that there is racism?

:shrug:

[mark414]

77. everything he said

[fishwax]

80. hardly everything he said

I think udokier's disagreement is in the realm of general semantics (abstract principle differing from concrete example), but I don't see where he says there isn't racism or that black people aren't discriminated against. (Elsewhere in the thread he confirms it.) If you had something specific in mind, though, I might have missed it.

Post 19 (which I see you've responded to) and post 21 above clearly deny that discrimination exists, on the other hand.

[UdoKier]

82. Actually nothing I said.

The fact that one group is more likely to be discriminated against doesn't mean that EVERY PERSON in that group gets discriminated against. By the same token, the fact that most members of another group are treated fairly doesn't mean that ALL of them are treated fairly.

And merely being treated fairly is not "privilege" it is as it should be. Nobody's denying racism, just denying that being white is in and of itself a "privilege"

You seem to think that every person is a carbon copy of every other person in their ethnic group and that we're all in the same boat. That's BS.

[mark414]

95. if you can't see it for yourself

then nothing i say is going to change that

[UdoKier]

99. There is nothing to see. I know what I wrote.

Don't lash out at me that you haven't bothered to read any of it.

You're just spitting out knee-jerk reactions to what you THINK I'm saying instead of actually reading what I AM saying.

[UdoKier]

90. Please find ONE instance where I denied the existence of racism.

You need to look up the word privilege, and realize that people are individuals, and not monolithic blocs, and that the advantages or disadvantages of given groups aren't contagious to EVERY member of said group. They are only averages.

Your logic denies that there is such a thing as a black man of privilege or a white man who was born in the gutter. It's anti-human nonsense.

Liberalism is about helping out people in need, not just people in need who are not white.

[Misunderestimator]

103. Yes you are... relatively speaking, which is the whole point.

[lukasahero]

35. Well done.

Thanks for your words. It's really important for those of us who have some form of privilege to at least acknowledge it.

I've noticed when it comes to issues of racism or sexism lately, there is a quick push back claiming "reverse discrimination". The only thing that does is diminish the validity of the initial claim, cloud the reality of the issues faced by the "oppressed" (for lack of a better word) and ultimately allow the perpetuation of the problem.

Basically, you will never fix a problem if you refuse to admit it's there in the first place.

[fishwax]

Reverse discrimination and other such forms of denial

certainly do seem to be popping up a lot lately. As if everything has been rainbows and gumdrops since the Voting Rights Act passed or since Affirmative Action went into effect.

A similar tact is to attack the messenger. A week or so ago there was a thread about Halle Berry's comments on racism in Hollywood, and so much of the thread contained attacks on Halle Berry, saying she is a terrible actress, or since she's rich what right does she have to complain about racism. It was rather discouraging. Just another form of denial.

[trumad]

37. WOW! Excellent post.

[Beetwasher]

40. I'm Sure Fish Don't Even Realize They Are Immersed In Water

White men find it hard to realize just how priveleged they are...It's taken completely for granted because it's just so ingrained in society. Privelege is the water white men swim in and most are not even aware of it.

I say this as a white male.

Excellent post!

[smirkymonkey]

106. Good point...

I think what is happening in this society is that white men perceive ANY challenge to their dominance as persecution. Even though they have traditionally been given more than their fair share of privilege by virtue of their race and gender, attempts to redress the power imbalance has been perceived as an all out "attack" on white maleness.

However, many white men who feel marginalized due to class, wealth, or some other marker by which they feel their worth is measured, have reacted to the betterment of minorities and women as doubly threatening to their manhood.

A big part of the problem is that instead of accepting their position in life, taking responsibility for their circumstances, or challenging the social structure that keeps them down in the first place, they project the blame onto lower status groups. It's the coward's way out.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. Brilliant post!

Thanks very much.

[fishwax]

55. Actually, most of those things have to do with wealth

Drive onto a Mercedes lot in a beat-up '84 Accord wearing a ratty t-shirt and faded jeans and see how quickly, even as a white man, the salesman rushes to your attention. And when I go into the bank or convenience store, I see white men who do get cross-eyed looks for various reasons. They don't have backers and they don't have cash and they don't have friends who have country club memberships.

I think that white people who complain about reverse racism are generally ridiculous, and it is obvious to me that there is still an incredible amount of racism in this country. The vast majority of the richest and most powerful in the country are white males, but it does not follow that the vast majority of white males are rich or powerful. White children will generally have better opportunities/advantages than black children born in roughly similar circumstances, but that doesn't mean that poor white males have many (or even any) advantages in society as a whole. If they are somehow able to acquire wealth (like winning the lottery) than they will have easier access to the advantages of wealth than an African-American in similar circumstances, but that's a statistical anomaly (no matter how much the national imagination loves the Horatio Alger myth). I knew kids in grade school and junior high (most didn't make it to high school) who, frankly, didn't have a chance.

[Stuckinthebush]

58. Indeed it is difficult to pull out the class part in the equation

But if you run a social psych experiment where two men walk onto a Mercedes lot, both who are wearing the same type of clothes that would depict one as being from working class background, you would see that the white guy would be approached first.

Yes, class is a huge barrier here, but it can be overcome unlike race.

Let's take another example. I used to work at a packaging products plant (we made the stuff that becomes the lining in soup cans). We were all working class stiffs - pushing 55 gallon drums of dangerous chemicals around, and mixing huge vats of these chemicals. There was a pretty good mix of white and black employees. As in any work environment, there was a hierarchy of supervisors. Time and again, I saw working class white guys move up that hierarchy, jumping over their working class black coworkers who had more or the same skill as the white guys. Sometime less. In this working class environment, whiteness was key if you wanted to make more money and have more responsibility. So, while the company did try to initially hire an equal amount of black and white employees, it was the white guys who could count on advancing.

Even at the very bottom of the social hierarchy, I would wager that white panhandlers do better than black panhandlers. Now, I do want to point out that I have no empirical evidence to back up that claim, it is just an assumption. I'll look to see if I can find some studies, however.

Race, class, and gender co-mingle in complex ways to insure the social structure is maintained. In this hierarchy, white/male/rich wins, but white/male/middle class wins too - sometimes over white/female/rich. Yes, white/male/poor is low down on that list, but it is still above white/female/poor and black/male/poor.

Someone (perhaps bell hooks) wrote that to be a black female in our society is to be invisible. When one thinks of male, they think "white male", when one thinks of black, they think of "black male", when one thinks of woman, they think of "white female". I digress, but the point is that whiteness regardless of socioeconomic status, is socially more valuable than blackness.

[fishwax]

59. Oh, I agree with your general point

and you may be right (or not, I don't know) about white panhandlers doing better than black panhandlers. It just seems like a distortion to call either of them privileged. When I was growing up in the 80s, I knew of white kids who didn't have indoor toilets. I wouldn't call them privileged, either.

But on the whole, yeah, people in rougly similar circumstances will still have unequal experiences based on their color. The way I see it, wealth increases your opportunities exponentially. The "privilege gap" (if you will) between whites and minorities probably increases as more wealth is added.

Some signals get crossed when abstract concepts and conrete examples are discussed interchangably. As an abstract concept, whites are privileged (period). As concrete examples, the kids growing up without indoor plumbing aren't. But on the whole, the paths of whites are certainly easier. I don't see how that can be denied.

[Stuckinthebush]

60. OK

I think we are in general agreement.

Yes, the term "privilege" is problematic, but when the class portion of the word is removed, the term can be used to mean "gets cut a break".

You take the incarceration and sentencing data, control for socioeconomic status, and you still see white "gets cut a break" in action.

All in all, I think we are on the same page.

[UdoKier]

83. Yeah! What he said!

I'm not always the best at expressing this kind of thing, but If I'm gonna be called privileged, dammit, I want some of the trappings!


Let's say that the "average white male" has an 1800 sq. foot house and 2 cars and an income of $50K.

Gimme my house, cars and income, or stop saying that I automatically have them because I'm a white male!

[Stuckinthebush]

91. Look at #58, #59, and #60

and that might clarify my position.

[dcn112]

126. wrong

Would you really go up to a white male who just finished a 12 hour day in a coal mine and tell him "Dude, we freakin' own the world"? No, you would be a complete idiot to do so. I think what we have hear is a classic case of a white guilt liberal and a blue collar background liberal. You're assuming that these supposed benefits (most of which don't affect the average blue collar worker) somehow pull the coal miner into this realm of "whitey." They do not. You're also assuming that all blacks have it worse than white blue collar workers. This is false. To use the words "privilege" and "blue collar worker" in the same sentence to me shows a sincere lack of understanding. I cannot believe you would even speak in such a manner. Let's go through each of your statements to show everyone how little you know and maybe you too can be insulted.

Dear blue collar worker,

Sure, you don't feel it because of the rich v. poor dynamic, but you are still privileged.
Your aching back tells you otherwise, but keep reading.

When you walk into a bank or convenience store, people don't look at you out of the corner of their eye to make sure you aren't up to something.
Blue collar workers are always treated with red carpet.

If you won the lottery tomorrow, you could buy a house anywhere you wanted without worrying that your neighbors would feel that the you are "invading".
You have a 1 in a million chance of winning the lottery. Housing laws were passed some time ago but people still like to repeat this. There are also black suburbs and black gated communities. But anyways hurry up and win the lottery so you can start enjoying that white privilege.

If you got enough backers and raised enough cash, you stand a better chance at successfully running for political office.
We all know that blue collar workers are always running for office. They always have enough time and money. People want to vote for plumbers and laborers. Good point.

You could be a guest of any of your white friends at their golf course or country club without the slightest sideways look from other members.
Blue collar workers sure play a lot of golf. Any black that can afford a golf membership but gets sideways looks should make any blue collar worker cry.

While it doesn't feel like it, you still have a better chance at getting a job than a similarly qualified black man.
You struggle to survive. It only feels that way.

You will be served at Denny's or Shoney's or Waffle House without question.
Is this comment the result of something you saw on tv or a study?
Yes blue collar worker, at Denny's you are king. You can declare "I'm the king of Denny's!". Gods among men I tell you.

Your children will likely not be prejudged as needing remedial assistance in school.
Your children are truly lucky. They love wearing second hand clothes.

You are less likely to be pulled over by a cop after dark.
Let's say this and feel better about ourselves without thinking about how in black areas the cops also tend to be black. Or that studies have shown that blacks tend to speed more often. But I'll give you this one.

You will receive more lenient sentences if you happen to commit a crime.
Are we talking about criminals or blue collar workers? What is the message? If you commit a crime, you can enjoy your white privilege with a shorter sentence in prison!

You are less likely to receive the death penalty if you murder someone.
Same answer. Kill someone to begin enjoying your privilege today.

When you walk onto a Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus lot, you are more likely to get a salesperson to initiate a conversation.
This one made me laugh. I'm supposed to feel sorry for black guys that can afford a luxury car because they have to initiate the converstation? Let me get a kleenex.

And on...and on......
Not really. This is overly simplistic thinking.

My friend, while it may not feel like it sometimes, you and I are privileged in this society. We freakin' own the world.
We own the world blue collar worker. You don't own your house, you need a new car, but you own the world. Do you like that black stuff that you cough up every night from mining? Think of it as part of the world that you own.

The class/money barrier can be breached, but the race barrier can never be breached.
Black people will always have it worse than you. You see wealthy blacks on tv who seem to be having lots of fun? They dream every night of being in your shoes.

I am willing to bet that even Clarence Thomas gets sideways glances at a convenience store.
Again we seem to be concerned with sideways glances. This is truly a good use of liberal energy.

Reading the latest book about white guilt doesn't make you some kind of apologist for white people. It may help you deal with your white guilt but it doesn't solve any real problems. Take a closer look please and try to find real solutions that help everyone in need. Sorry to be brash but I find this line of thinking to be very offensive.

[Stuckinthebush]

129. Your focus is on class issues, and a misread of the word privilege

Yes, blue collar white men have privilege. Indeed there is a class variable that confounds ones understanding of this privilege, but it is there nonetheless.

The blue collar man who works 12 hour days in a coal mine has a better chance of becoming a supervisor than his blue collar buddy who happens to be black. That is privilege.

The blue collar white man is more likely to get a more lenient sentence than a blue collar black man. This is privilege. You can rant about having no privilege in prison, but you have a shallow understanding of privilege. The fact that a judge and jury would look at a person's white skin and knowingly or unknowingly give that person a more lenient sentence is privilege.

I can go on if you'd like, but I am not sure you would hear me.

You are too caught up in the word privilege to mean "rich and powerful". That is not at all what we are talking about here. Privilege is "benefit of the doubt", or "getting a break".

We white guys have done an amazing job at defending our privilege - even to the point of saying, "I'm not privileged because I'm poor!!!" Bullshit. That is lazy thinking.

The offense is in any white male refusing to think critically and refusing to examine the privilege that they have at all levels of the socioeconomic scale.

As for the book I referenced, it is actually 8 years old - hardly recent. As for "white guilt", indeed we have much to feel guilty about, but that is not what I am proposing. I propose that white guys like myself step back and take a critical look at the world in which we live. Understand the many faces of privilege and be aware of how that privilege is viewed by non-white males. If all white males had just a little more understanding of the mechanism of privilege, it would go a long way in improving race relations and help "solve some real problems".

If you'd like to discuss class issues, I'd be happy to engage you in that conversation. There are some wonderful books that I could reference, but you may accuse me of having "class guilt".

My challenge to all white guys is to start educating themselves on privilege and how it intersects with race, class, and gender. Only then can we "solve any real problems".

[dcn112]

147. You still didn't answer my main point

that your definition of privilege doesn't affect most people. You quote me saying "solve some real problems" as if it's just a slogan that I like to repeat. Are you not interested in solving real problems? I'm not interested in your books on white guilt, I took sociology and I've read plenty on the subject. We can spend all day discussing white guilt and privilege or we can actually work for something like national health care. What do you think most black people would appreciate more? Oh and please stop saying stuff like "We white guys." There is no white guy club that elected you as president. Your opinion only represents you. Your challenge is for white guys to start educating themselves on privilege? My challenge is to stop addressing problems in black and white and be more constructive. If I wanted a conversation about white guilt or privilege I could go down to my local starbucks and find some pop culture minded liberal to join me in this modern form of penance.
We should probably end this thread though, Bush and friends love it when we infight.

[Triana]

146. agreed, stuck...

...many people are so privileged, that their privilege is invisible to them. They so take it for granted that they don't even realize it's there. Until those doors get arbitrarily slammed in their faces because they are or are NOT some skin color, nationality, religion, or sex, they don't even realize how wide open the opportunities are to them - because they've never known anything except that wide openness. If it suddenly wasn't there anymore, THEN we'd hear them scream. Meanwhile, a lot of people just don't have a clue what it's like to sit on the other side of privilege based on sex, color, religion, whatever. They would insist that discrimination doesn't exist because THEY never experienced it themselves.

Eyes Wide Shut...doors wide open, and they haven't a clue.

I'm a 'minority'. And some people I know who ought to know better would insist to their death I'm not discriminated against because THEY never experienced it themselves. They haven't even a tiny clue...and I sit here wondering why, when I'm more qualified for a job, promotion, assignment, recongition, whatever - that person or persons always get it handed to them, instead. I've a lifetime of this pattern, and the person(s) for whom those doors were flung open whilst they were slammed in my face - still insist discrimination doesn't exist - and it doesn't - for THEM.

[gollygee]

26. LOL love it

That sure brought them out of the woodwork :D

[harlinchi]

33. Sure did. And those same folks from the woodwork ...

wonder how blue-collar whites can afford to vote for Mr. Bush.

[atommom]

27. Don't worry. Dubya's No White Man Left Behind initiative will

assure that 200% of white men will get a piece of the pie by 2010. :eyes:

[RUDUing2]

32. but on the reverse side they are the only group that can be fired

with absolutely no recourse..even if firing was not legitimate..

with the good comes the bad...

[underpants]

41. FINALLY My people have a VOICE!!!!!!!!!!

:silly:

[Vladimir]

43. And then I saw this...

and realised the picture I was trying to link to wouldn't let me. Damn...

the link: http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/charts5.htm

[UdoKier]

45. The prison populations is as you show it for two reasons.

1. Proportionally, blacks commit a larger percentage of crimes.

2. Cops are concentrated in high-crime, often black neighborhoods, and often give blacks more unfair scrutiny and the harrassment.

The percentage of hispanic prisoners is actually pretty much in line with their proportion of the population which is 20%, so I don't see why that # should be alarming.

Clearly, racism in the justice system is a factor in this, as is the fact that fewer whites are in a position to feel compelled to commit a crime (less poverty)



But grouping people like this is false logic of the same kind racists use when they say "a lot of blacks commit crimes, so all or most must be suspect."

Saying that "more whites are rich or in positions of power, so all whites are therefore powerful and privileged" is nonsense. It doesn't work that way.

[Vladimir]

46. If I can see where someone claimed that all whites are powerful...

as for priviledged, you yourself claim that the police "often give blacks more unfair scrutiny and the harrassment". Seems to me being white is a priviledge in and of itself by your own argument.

[UdoKier]

48. NOT being harrassed is not "privilege". It shouldn't happen to anyone.

You act as though being abused and discriminated against is normal and right.

It's not.

To me, privilege entails being entitled to something better than the norm. Blacks often get treated worse than the norm. Rich whites ALWAYS get treated better than the norm. Working and poor whites are treated pretty much normally, unless they have long hair, or dirty ragged clothes, and then watch as the cops harrass and beat them just like they do the blacks.

[Vladimir]

51. 'Just like the blacks'? Methinks not...

the statistics think not too. Thing is, if you take a black guy and a white guy who earn the same, live in similar neighbourhoods and behave similarly, one of them is going to get extra shit for his skin colour and the other ain't. And that extra shit that the white guy don't get is indeed called being priviledged relative to the black guy

[UdoKier]

53. Statistics be damned. I've seen it happen first person.

nt

[ultraist]

56. "Statistics be damned" ??? LMAO! Let's just IGNORE the facts!

And base reality on one person's narrow view and anecdotal examples. LMAO!!!

Check the facts dude. It's not by ACCIDENT that white males hold the majority of power positions in this country and that a DISPROPORTIONATELY high number of blacks are poor and without college degrees!

These discrepancies don't exist because blacks are stupid and lazy.

Sorry, but RACISM still exists in our society and WHITE MALES are still privileged. White males are treated differently and have MORE OPPORTUNITIES and better access.

Just the fact you are white makes you privileged. You are treated differently, are less apt to get arrested or pulled over, and enjoy the benefits of generations of your white ancestory.

It's not just classism, RACISM is a major social ill in our society and we have an ETHICAL DUTY to address it and make reperations to end it.

[UdoKier]

64. The fact that racism exists and that more whites are privileged...

...does not automatically make ALL whites privileged. There are all kinds of discrimination, not all of them based on ethnicity or creed.

I never said that racism was not a problem. It's a huge problem. But its existence does not by default make all white people "privileged".

The hundreds of white children who die in this country from malnutrition and neglect every year are no more "privileged" than their black and hispanic counterparts.

And who the hell called blacks "stupid and lazy"?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

47. Hispanics make up 12 percent of the population, NOT 20.

Here's some info:

-In nine states, between 4 and nearly 8 percent of adult Latino men are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, between 2 and 4 percent of Hispanic adults (men and women) are incarcerated.

· In ten states, Latino men are incarcerated at rates between five and nine times greater than those of white men.

· In eight states, Latina women are incarcerated rates that are between four and seven times greater than those of white women.

· In four states, Hispanic youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between seven and seventeen times greater than those of white youth.

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

[SemiCharmedQuark]

49. And here is the sister info for black americans:

Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.

[UdoKier]

50. You are correct according to Census 2000.

I have heard the 20% figure, and thought it was true. I was raised in Texas and live in California, so it seemed realistic enough to me...


As with black population, I'm sure that there is a strong correlation between incarceration and having actually committed a crime.

And then there is also probably a strong correlation between poverty and having committed a crime in the fist place.

[ultraist]

57. It's called institutionalized discrimination

If you think blacks are treated fairly by the system, you need to get busy and read up on judicial discrimination.

[UdoKier]

63. Read my post. I didn't say that.

But that doesn't mean that all the blacks behind bars are there because of racism. Crime and recidivism are higher in black communities, so higher incarceration rates are to be expected, as long as the underlying causes for the crime are not addressed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Proportionally blacks commit a larger percentage of crimes?

NO..PROPORTIONALLY blacks get CONVICTED and sent to prison for crimes that earn the offspring of wealthy whites a slap on the wrist

[ultraist]

65. Exactly! White man for possession of cocaine vs. Black man with crack

Who gets more time? Even though it's the SAME drug.

Black man steals piece of shit car worth four grand vs. White man that embezzles (STEALS) three HUNDRED grand from his accounting firm. Who gets more time?

Fortune magazine did a graph on this type of thing and it was astounding!

Black adolescent steals candy ($2.99)from a store vs. white suburban boy steals an xbox game ($29.99), who gets more time?

There are numerous things going on here including different types of crimes carrying different penalties and "certain" races being more apt to get prison time.

This is not a new insight, people have been analyzing these discrepancies for decades. It's unfortunate that some people fail to educate themselves on the facts.

[UdoKier]

71. Nobody's denying the existence of bias.

But bias alone is not enough to account for the disproportionate crime rates in the black community.

Poverty and underfunded schools are as much to blame for those incarceration rates as bias.

[UdoKier]

69. Oh come now.

Even if half of the blacks in prison had been falsely accused and convicted and twice as many whites deserved prison (unlikely), crime rates among people of color would STILL be higher than other groups. Even civil rights leaders acknowledge that crime in the black community is a serious and endemic problem.

I agree that there is bias in the judicial system, but not to the degree you're suggesting. You're stretching the limits of credibility.


But hell, yes, the number of cops assigned to track down embezzlers and so forth should be doubled, and EVERYONE in prison for petty drug charges should be released. That alone would go a long way to alleviating the bias you're talking about.

[geniph]

78. One of the reasons

that there are proportionally more people of color incarcerated than whites is that, compared head to head for EXACTLY the same infraction, a person of color will nearly always receive a longer sentence. I am not pulling that out of my ass. It's a widely-recognized problem in judicial circles. Juries are more likely to convict a person of color, and judges are more likely to impose a more severe sentence.

The crimes committed are only one small piece of the total equation.

[mark414]

72. think about this

because what you're saying is full of holes

you take nearly any crime, any crime committed in this country, and you try a white guy and a black guy, the black guy is more likely to be convicted, sent to jail, where the white guy is more likely to get a second chance, to get off with probation or community service. ANY CRIME.

i have friends who are scared to drive out of the city of milwaukee, no matter WHAT time of day it is because they know they'll get pulled over, and you know what, THEY DO.

there was one time i was with a (black) friend of mine who has a very nice car, there was another dude in the front seat and i was slouched down in the back, so you probably couldn't see me if we just drove past. we got pulled over, the cop walked up to the window started asking my friend all these questions; i butted in and asked him why he was pulling us over, what reasons did he have, what laws did we break. he stuttered and mumbled and then told us we could go.

marinate on that for a minute.

[BronxBoy]

108. Whoa....Wait a Minute

As a Black man, I read this thread this morning and read it again this afternoon with the intention of responding. For the most part, I had empathy with a lot of your's and a lot of other White men's arguments. I do feel for White people who have suffered "reverse discrimination". I really wish we lived in a society where individual merit and societal compassion would dictate an person's advance in society. But we don't and I'm nowhere near smart enough to even begin to pretend how to resolve this issue. That's why I come here. Maybe through civil discourse we can at some level try to reach a level of understanding that we can take to our peers no matter what color we are.

But I got to call you on your Bullshit. You said we are a larger part of the prison population because we 1) commit a larger percentage of crimes and 2) because we do, cops are deployed more frequently to our neighborhoods and we get locked up more often. I always love it when when people cite crime statistics and never, ever bother to discuss enforcement methods. And to understand what I'm talking about, you need look no further than another war that is being waged by this country: The war on drugs.

Study after study after study has shown that the racial breakdown of Americans who use illegal drugs pretty much break down acording to the racial breakdown of the country at large. So Whites using drugs mirror their percentage of the population at large. Same for Blacks. Same for Latinos. etc etc etc

So you would think that the percentage of people being locked up under a lot of the draconian drug laws would mirror this fact. But it doesn't. Blacks and Latinos get locked up at probably 2 or 3 times the rates that Whites do. Why is that? Is it because they are stupider than the White drug dealers? Or because they move more quantity? No. It is because law enforcement selectively enforces the law. If the drug laws were evenly applied during the height of the cocaine and crack periods of the lst 20 years, half of wall street and hollywood would be doing 20 year bids. You ever been in an inner city drug spot? I have and I can tell you one thing. While the number of people hitting a drug spot would pretty much reflect the racial composition of the neighborhood, there would almost always be white people there and the amount of drugs they brought would dwarf the combined totals that the minorities brought. And keep in mind that these were White folks who hadn't reached Nirvana, they hadn't gotten ahold of a dealer who would save them the indignity of having to come uptown to score. Imagine those who did and how much time they would be doing if the laws were effectively applied. I've always joked that in the Black community drug use is a crime but in White communities, it's a mental health problem.

So while I am willing to reach out and feel your pain, I can't. At least not yours. Your statements #1 and #2 sound just like republican talking points. And what's ironic is that your main beef with this thread is that you feel that White men are being painted with and broad brush: that because the power structures in this country are controlled by White Men, all White men shouldn;t be accused of having that at their disposal. And then in the next breath you state that most Black people committ more crimes without even beginning to show me, a Black man that you understand how Black people are being portrayed that way in a fucked up light. Saying "Well there's racism in the judicial system" just doesn't cut it,

Discrimaintaion isn;t just about jobs and school and access to goverment resources, it is how about the laws of this country are applied to everyone: Man and Women, White or Black.

I willing to hear you out but check your racist, uninformed bullshit at the door

[UdoKier]

117. You can check your ignorant BS at the door too.

I don't disagree with a single thing you said as it regards the "drug war". It's ludicrous, and it tends to target dealers, who are more likely to be minorities, and lets off users, who are more likely to be white.

But I simply don't buy the notion that if the justice system were deployed perfectly equally, the crimes rates among blacks and whites would be the same. Common sense dictates that any population of any color, poor whites in some areas, is going to be more prone to crime if the poverty and unemployment rates are high (last time I checked, black unemployment was at over 18%) and education needs are going unmet.

You can sit around and call me names all day if you want. I'm a poor working slob without a dime to my name, but blame me if you need a scapegoat.

I applaud any efforts to end the stupid drug war and release all of its prisoners (and get them into employment once released), as well as trying to address the serious bias that exists in law enforcement, but that will only take care of part of the problem. Until schools in black communities are properly funded and well-paying jobs are brought back, black incarceration will continue to be higher than that of the population at large. You call that a republican talking point? They would tell you to get a voucher, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop yer bitching. I acknowledge your beef, and it's a valid one, but I will never buy this crap that "all whites are privileged". Bullshit.

[ProfessorGAC]

61. Well, That Settles It

Now i have to turn Repub. Your chart convinces that there is a terrible persecution against us going on in the world.
The Professor

[Misunderestimator]

66. Good point!

poor widdle white men... :thumbsup:

[newportdadde]

70. We need to look past this color issue.

This kind of stuff is like throwing gas on a fire for neocons and their ilk. There are a lot of poor whites out there, a LOT and this kind of thing just stokes their fire. Poorly paid white blue collar guy that sees this stuff and hates it, one of the further reasons for him to vote RW.

Should I put up a graph of the percentage of NBA players that are white? What crazy crap could we come up with on that?

This graph would make a whole lot more sense if it was on net worth. That would really show you the divide and the divide isn't just color but moreso its cash.

[mark414]

76. hmm

Median Net Worth

1983 1989 1992 1995 1998
White $71,500 $84,900 $71,300 $65,200 $81,700
African-American $4,800 $2,200 $12,000 $7,900 $10,000
Hispanic $2,800 $1,800 $4,300 $5,300 $3,000

Since most wealth for African-American and Hispanic families is held in the form of housing, the racial wealth gap is much worse when housing is excluded from the calculations and only "financial wealth" is considered.

Median Financial Wealth

1983 1989 1992 1995 1998
White $19,900 $26,900 $21,900 $19,300 $37,600
African-American $0 $0 $200 $200 $1,200
Hispanic $0 $0 $0 $0 $0

http://www.osjspm.org/101_wealth.htm#7

[newportdadde]

79. I'm not talking about

Racial divide in wealth. First we need to take on the divide in wealth of all colors vs representation in government.

The top 1% in the country determine policy. If you want to change any of the divides you mentioned above we need to frame this as economic issue the 99% of us vs them.

[mark414]

81. i understand that

and i agree

i do think class is the biggest issue in this country today but i also believe that you cannot separate it from the race issue as the two are intrinsically tied together whether we like it or not

basically, you can't talk about one without the other

[dcn112]

121. garbage

You didn't include Asians.
You're looking at net worth, not income.
Try comparing the net income of the top 20% and the bottom 20%. That is the real difference.
There is no white males club. I see homeless white men all the time.
How would you like it if I posted black crime statistics?
Focus on solutions that help everyone.

[fishwax]

130. Focus on solutions that help everyone?

Like what ... ignoring the fact that the wealthiest and most powerful are overwhelmingly white males, and denying the fact that minorities and women are overwhelmingly excluded from the corridors of wealth and power?

How does that help anyone?

The "black crime statistics" have already been discussed on this thread, and they are a result of (drum roll please) institutional racism and disproportional poverty. These two factors are, of course, interconnected.

A solution that will help everyone is for working class whites to acknowledge racism. Without that, the working class won't ever be united. So save your self-righteous defensive bullshit for another battle. Recognize the fact that minorities get the shaft in this country. And then focus on solutions that help everyone.

[Misunderestimator]

84. LOL... You really think that per capita net worth would look different?

Or are you under the impression that NBA salaries represent the norm for black men? wow

[newportdadde]

89. Ugh.... like I said above the first battle is 99% of us vs them

that is the first hurdle that is how you cross lines of color and generate the power for more change. Also the graph is a bit scewed, one man Bill Gates since he is white can alone effect this scale sited since it is taking the numbers across all white men raising all averages. Otherwise someone owes me alot of money.

I'm not sure where your going with NBA salaries I mentioned that above because I was trying to point out how dumb the original graph was. What does it really mean, whats it worth? The conclusion being drawn or jumped too by many in this thread is white guys run congress = average white guy has big time power. So what kinds of leaps of logic could I make with an NBA chart?

See what I mean? Most black men and most white men aren't running around with power to define policy quite the contrary. If we want to return to power as a party we need to frame this debate as a class battle.

[Misunderestimator]

93. There are many more highly paid CEOs than highly paid NBA stars

and you are trying to make some point that there is not really a gap, when there obviously is. Sure, the wage gap between the 99% and the 1% is a problem... but it has NOTHING to do with the problem of white men commanding higher salaries than black men.

And MOST white men aren't running around with power, but those IN POWER are mostly white men... It's really quite simple, no matter how you try to spin it.

[UdoKier]

101. You just said it all...

"And MOST white men aren't running around with power, but those IN POWER are mostly white men..."


Yep, and having those white men in power hasn't done me, or most other powerless people like me, a damn bit of good.

As for your examples, both CEOs and B-Ball players are grossly overpaid rarities.

What the hell do they have to do with the other 99.999% of us who live in the real world?

[Misunderestimator]

102. You still don't get it... the correlation between them being in power

is the similarly skewed wage gap between whites and blacks in the middle. Why would you want to imply that there is not a racial divide in this country be it power or money or anything else? Not to mention the same gap between men and women.

[dcn112]

122. Um

Bill Gates has a net worth higher than millions of blue collar white male workers put together. Take a closer look please. The other poster was right in that you insult those workers and push them away with this stuff. I really think this is all racist crap.

[Misunderestimator]

135. Where did you come from? Racist crap? WTF are you talking about?

Oh... I get it... you're one of those white guys that believes in reverse-discrimination. Okay... Welcome to DU.

[fishwax]

104. Don't look past it, deal with it. And deal with poverty as well.

Fact 1: Racism is a problem in this country.
Fact 2: Poverty/Classism is a problem in this country.

They both need to be dealt with. It's not an either-or choice, and the reality of one does not negate the reality of the other.

And besides, as another poster has said, the two are in many ways intertwined. For poor white people, the divide is cash. For black people, the divide is color. For poor black people, which covers an unfortunately and disgracefully large number of people (thanks to Fact #1), both are issues. You can't solve the cash issue by ignoring "this color issue."

[geniph]

73. I would actually find it more instructive

to see that graph done by net worth. There's damn little representation for people who aren't wealthy in our government. To me, it's more class-based than race-based these days.

However, what amused me was hearing some Bushlicker on the radio exulting over Bush's re-election by saying, "isn't it wonderful we've got a Christian man as President?" Um, lady, that's like saying we've got a rich white man as President. They all are. (Yes, yes, I know the Deists aren't technically Christian, but the principle still holds.)

[ultraist]

85. To those who keep making justifications and are pushing to silence us

about racism, I WILL NOT BE SILENCED! That's what the Repukes are telling us too.

This is a SERIOUS SOCIAL ILL and WE SHOULD NOT STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

Poor minorities are DOUBLE WHAMMIED!

I REFUSE to cower to the Repukes and buy into their denial, my African American son IS TREATED DIFFERENTLY THAN MY WHITE DAUGHTER! Come and live his life for a few weeks or STFU!

Cosigning this SILENCE movement is DANGEROUS!

[SammyBlue]

88. Damn, talk about oppression.

[tinonedown]

92. Graph is a lot like

The leaders of the Democrat 2004 run for President - Kerry, Dean, Clark, etc. I'd like to see that change as soon as 2008.

[trumad]

98. So would I...

Hillary/Obama or reverse.

[tinonedown]

107. Yes - something along those lines!

Not a bad pairing. But there are other non-white males I would like to see also - these two are just a start. An exciting start!

[txaslftist]

96. I feel your pain...

White males have to do all the people's work, and look how little participation african americans, women and other minorities do in congress. For shame.

Minorities really need to step it up.

[makhno]

105. Please don't promote racial divisions

Instead, look at the real problem: 40 millionaires in US Senate

Promoting political perspectives based on race, gender or religious divisions plays into the hands of those whose biggest fear is the re-emergence of class consciousness among the American people.

[mark414]

109. so we should just ignore the divisions that exist?

seeking not to promote them doesn't make the problem disappear, rather it only makes it worse if you turn your back on it

[ultraist]

115. Turn a blind eye? Since when does awareness=creating divisions?

I agree. Discussing the facts raises awareness, it does not promote division. Denial promotes division.

[fishwax]

119. Denial promotes division. Amen

Well said. We're through the looking glass somehow, where discrimination isn't divisive, only noticing and identifying discrimination is divisive. That's BS.

[makhno]

154. No one's telling you to ignore them

However, using the racial distribution of congressional seats as evidence of white privilege is pretty idiotic when it's clear to anyone with at least a modest understanding of modern economic and political trends that the real power behind those seats is capital, not race.

[Junkdrawer]

110. As Lewis Black said:

If you're a white male and you can't see that you're on top of the food chain, you need mental help!

:evilgrin:

[Jack Rabbit]

113. Are we THAT underrepresented in the general population?

Who is responsible for this injunstice? We should fight until we are at least 75% of the total population, bringing our total figures into line with our power in government.

That's only fair, isn't it?

[ulysses]

150. 75% white males?

You do know what that would do to the homoracial homosexual population, don't you?

It's a dilemma. ;-)

[DubyaSux]

114. Too much credit

Can you seriously say that the white man - while a smaller portion of the population - is so strong and so much smarter that he can rise above everybody else and squash them into poverty?

I'm sorry, but that's giving them way too much credit.

It's easy to ignore drop-out rates (how many Congressmen are high school dropouts?), hit-and-run parents (too many single parent households), and disproportionate crime while giving a bunch of white idiots so much credit, they can render any effort to get ahead moot unless you're a white guy.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

And to the guy that said a white couldn't walk 10 minutes in a black man's shoes, did anybody tell you this is 2005? That's so 1950's...come up with something original.

[ultraist]

116. No, it's not 1950 but racism is still very prevelant in our society

Give me a fucking break. "Oh, it's not 1950 it's 2005".

You sound very uninformed on this subject.

[fishwax]

118. I think you severely misunderstand the argument as well as the situation

it isn't that the white man "is so strong and so much smarter that he can rise above everybody else and squash them into poverty," it is that the white man has, generally speaking, institutional advantages of which minorities and women can only dream. Therefore, white males whining about being attacked in society or having to deal with reverse racism are rather ludicrous.

Furthermore, the drop out rates, single parent households, and crime rates are largely consequences of that institutional discrimination which minorities and women face.

[dcn112]

120. This is silly and divisive

Most white males work at least 40 hours a week. Some work 60 or more hours to get the basics. There is not free check for being a white male. If you're going to bash white males then at least include Asians as they tend to complicate simplistic explanations.

[fishwax]

128. Are their a lot of Asians in Congress?

The richest and most powerful people in the country are overwhelmingly white. That's a fact. Minorities are, by and large, shut out of the avenues of wealth and power. That's a fact too. I don't see how the facts are silly and divisive, let alone racist, as you said in an earlier post. (Unless you believe, to paraphrase the daily show, the facts are biased against white people.)

Racism still exists, and denying it is a grave injustice. Poverty is also a huge problem, and there are many, many white people who are also shut off from the corridors of wealth and power.

But denying that racism exists will never help to unite the working class. For the working class to be united, blue collar whites need to accept that racism is still a problem. (Personally, I think most of them do, and the "white paranoia" is fueled largely by middle and upper-class whites--Rush Limbaugh types.)

[dcn112]

144. Who is denying that racism exists?

My point is that posting that graph is just like posting a graph on black crime. It's divisive and doesn't accomplish anything. It's silly because it's so simplistic. If you posted a topic on how racism exists I really don't think anyone here would disagree. Can't you see how much we are fighting over this? And for what?

[fishwax]

152. Well, you seem to want us not to talk about it

except in the vaguest, most abstract sense.

My point is that posting that graph is just like posting a graph on black crime.

Actually, if you were to post a graph on black crime, I think some people might react only with negativism, but others would offer contextual explanations of the figures (hint: institutional racism, just like the graph in the OP of this thread, and disproportionate poverty ) as well as attempt constructive solutions. That's what leaders in the black community do about the problem of crime in the black community. They don't pretend like it doesn't exist.

It's divisive and doesn't accomplish anything.
It is only divisive because people react defensively, with emotion rather than logic. They perceive it as a "white bashing" thread or a "racist" thread, as you have called it. I can't see how it's racist. It is an intellectual fact. There was no racist or anti-white context provided, accept by posters who have reacted to it emotionally, as if the thread were saying all white men are rich or bastards or both. It doesn't even say all white men are oppressors. It just says "white men" aren't oppressed. Emotional, knee-jerk responses of "reverse racism" and "white bashing" are what is divisive, particularly since there isn't anything in the OP to substantiate those claims.

If you posted a topic on how racism exists I really don't think anyone here would disagree.

See posts 19 and 21 and get back to me on that.

It's quite simple: White Males (abstract concept) are not persecuted in this society. That doesn't mean that no white males anywhere (concrete examples) are ever persecuted in this society for any reason. It means that there isn't systematic forms of overt and covert persecution directed at White Males. You can't make that statement about any other group of people. Once people (white males) see that and admit to it, then they won't react defensively to posts like this one. And posts like this one won't really even be necessary, because white males won't go around complaining about being persecuted. Then maybe we can make some real progress.

As long as white males continue to see "racism" and "white bashing" in every discussion of concrete examples of the effects and forms of racism in this society, we're stalled.

[mark414]

133. silly and divisive?

silly and divisive is ignoring the reality that exists in our society

as much as i would love to NOT talk about racial divisions in our society the reality is is that they DO exist and they affect real people in real, undeniable aways

attempting to ignore these problems, IMHO, only aggravates the situation

and what's the deal with the Asians comment? ohhh right because they're the "model minority"

BS dude, trying to use Asians as some sort of example only exploits and abuses them as much as all other minorities in this country are currently exploited and abused

though i would say that while on an individual level, problems of race and racism have gotten better, on the whole, on a systematic, institutional level things have gotten dare I say worse in the past generation or so

[GetTheRightVote]

123. There is something really wrong about this graph

:kick:

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enki23]

125. no shit. what's up with this 40% business?

white men make up nearly eighty percent of nationally elected offices, and yet they are held back to only 40% of the population? justice demands their percentage in the population needs to be brought up to their level of participation in government. this nation needs to be 80% white, and male. if not now, when? if not us, who? it's time to get more white guys. i hear there are a lot of them in eastern europe and canada.

just think what a tremendous boon it would be for the beer bong and industries.

[trumad]

127. snarf

funny post...:-)

[enki23]

131. that was supposed to say "beer bong and porn industries"

.

[Scout]

132. Remember the Male Privilege Checklist thread?

I started it several years ago on DU, and wow, you should have seen those poor persecuted men howling!

[mark414]

134. do you have a link?

i would be interested in seeing this...

[Scout]

142. no, don't have the link.

it's under the original DU archives somewhere....

[ArkDem]

136. I wonder what percentage of white males have been

President and Vice President?

[MostlyLurks]

138. Why must you use your facts to persecute me? n/t

I've already been oppressed at least three times today. Granted, twice was by the printer which forces me into indentured paper-jam-clearance-itude, but oppressed nonetheless.

[superconnected]

143. yes, but I've sure spoken to enough

who believe they are the most discriminated against group there is.

Yes come to think of it, they were all republicans.

[MattG]

148. EVERYONE ON THE WHOLE GOD DANG PLANET

THINKS THEY ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST!!!

BLACKS SAY RACISM!!!
WHITES SAY REVERSE RACISM!!!
WOMEN COMPLAIN ABOUT SEXISM!!!
MEN (EVEN ME) COMPLAIN ABOUT REVERSE SEXISM!!!
LATINOS COMPLAIN ABOUT RACISM!!!
BLACKS AND WHITES COMPLAIN ABOUT LATINOS TAKIN THEIR JOBS!!!


It seems to me that everyone EVERYWHERE thinks that the particular group or category of person that they belong to is discriminated against and just generally has it bad in life. But the good news is, if everyone is hated and discriminated then that means no one is and we are living in the happy rainbow world of everyone gets treated equally that we have all dreamed of.

This whole arguement is trying to determine if certain races are discriminated against. But the thing is people stereotype all kinds of aspects of people and discriminate for a wide variety of reasons. For a small example; I wear glasses, now JUST because I wear glasses, people ASSUME that I can help them with their homework or any other academic question out there. That's a sorry example, but you get what I mean. And yes, that whites actually do TO A TINY EXTENT have it better in a country where they are the majority. Reason being is that there is still a lot of un-easiness that many whites feel toward black folks due to the higher number of blacks in prison.

But my whole point is that people are hard-pressed to accept anyone that is not just like them. People always discriminate, and it's not just a race or a class thing. It's for a number of reasons including, but not limited to those two. So, I ask the intellectual minds here at DU to think of some other things that people discriminate for. I know personally that Good-looking people (men and women, although mostly hot, gorgeous, women) are treated better than others.

[superconnected]

149. and you believe whites have it better only a "tiny extent"

interesting.

When I replied to this post all I could see was the first post and it looked like no replies. I'll have to go back and read this.

after reading: Ah what an ugly thread...

[ultraist]

151. LMAO! "to a tiny extent" and lots of yelling...hmmmm

I bet I know what's really tiny.

Po' widdle, widdle, weanies...just can't take it. "Whaaa, don't take my power position, we earned it, we work for it. Oppression doesn't exist and never really has. How dare you talk about the facts. Boo fucking hoo."

[fishwax]

153. to a TINY extent? Get freakin' real

I mean African Americans were guaranteed the right to vote almost 40 years ago ... what more could they want, right?

Reverse racism. yeah, that's it.

:eyes:

no, wait ... :puke: