Attempts to Indoctrinate my Children at school

[veteran_for_peace]

Yesterday I came home from work and my daughter presented me with a ticket that she had received from an assembly at her middle school. She asked me if she could go to the meeting in the evening to watch these individuals break bricks, bend steel bars, and otherwise prove that they are not girly men. So I decided to call the phone number on the ticket and low and behold it was an assembly of god church. I spoke with somebody, I assume he was the minister, and I told him that I was not pleased with the tactics that they were using to preach their message to kids. I equated their tactics to those employeed by child molesters. I don't think that he liked that one.

Has anybody else had to deal with this group:


http://www.tvbn.com/index.html?http://www....e20000220a.html

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. What state are you in? nt

[veteran_for_peace]

14. Memphis, TN

[Mystified]

80. This thread has gotten ridiculous

Some bar-bending, brick-breaking christians performed for an assembly period and handed out tickets for a show at the church. Big deal. The school doesn't have religion classes, nor should it. Many people who have posted on this thread appear frightened at the fact that children may encounter people who think differently than they do at school. Many parents don't approve of a religious message at school? Well, many parents don't want their children to be taught about sex at school. Both groups probably believe the respective issues are best dealt with at home, not in the public arena. I for one think it is a good thing when children are exposed to a diverse array of ideas. Would I want the school to have a religious theme everyday? No. But we are talking about ONE assembly period. If a parent can't handle their child's questions about religion after they're exposed to one assembly period of a power lifting god squad then I don't know what to tell you.

To clarify, Vet for Peace, this rant is not aimed at you specifically but at the general view that some ideas should not be mentioned at all in schools.

[earth mom]

83. Wrong answer!

You've replied many times to this thread-obviously you want to be heard. And perhaps trying to take over the thread with your point of view maybe. I don't know you or what you're all about, but isn't that what fundies do? Never take NO for an answer?!

Sorry, but one assembly is one too many. No parent should have to worry that when they send their kid to a PUBLIC school they will be indoctrinated with a religion or ideology they haven't approved of nor had any idea would be presented to their child in the first place. It's called being blind sided and that's the type of tactic that gives far too many religions a bad name.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

85. I disapprove because it's ideological indoctrination-not education.Sex ed

should be taugh in school. I'm not afraid or worried about it because it's educational. Are you?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiraboo]

2. Yep. They came to my kids' middle school.

However I was not informed ahead of time. Had I been, my kids would not have participated. The funny thing is, both my son and daughter thought that the show was really just an embarrassment for the performers. They made a bunch of jokes about how those who can break the most bricks will sit at the right hand of the Lord on Judgement Day. In other words, the church in question made a point but not the one intended!

[mopinko]

3. this kind of thing

was part of the reason that i homeschooled for 8 years.
now my kids are in public schools, and get all kinds of crazy shit.
i had a kid offered extra credit (she really needed it) to see her teacher's gospel group sing at a church. she did this without proper notification of the administration. i got her in some deep shit for it, but she wasn't fired, like she should have been. she is now taking it out on my son. she is the WORST teacher in the school. what a shock.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. They will go to great lengths to get into your children’s head

As they understand that the way to hook people for all time is by instilling their fear in them when they are in their formative years.

One must constantly be on guard in protecting their children from these people else they be condemned to a life of fear and self loathing.

"I equated their tactics to those employed by child molesters. I don't think that he liked that one.

LOL....I can understand how that might not have gone over real big. I don't think that was an approach that was gone over in Dale Carnegies book, "How to Win Friends and Influence people."

[Ladyhawk]

60. You hit the nail on the head.

"As they understand that the way to hook people for all time is by instilling their fear in them when they are in their formative years. One must constantly be on guard in protecting their children from these people else they be condemned to a life of fear and self loathing."

I'll be recovering from my fundamentalist indoctrination for the rest of my life. I'm finally taking responsibility for removing the parasites from my life, but believe me, it is really, really hard.

I had fundamentalist parents, went to fundamentalist churches and attended a fundamentalist school from grade 2 through high school. Breaking these chains was close to impossible and I will have to slog through the consequences for the rest of my life.

Don't let these people get to your kids!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

66. Let me know if I can be of any help

"I'll be recovering from my fundamentalist indoctrination for the rest of my life"

I too have spent the last 40 years recovering from the emotional and mental abuse of being subjected to fundamentalist indoctrination at an early age. And you are correct, it is a long and hard process that one must vigorously pursue if one hopes to be free from its chains.

If I can be of any help do not hesitate to ask.

[Ladyhawk]

73. Thank you! Most people don't understand how difficult recovery is.

Most think of religion as benign or even good. Fundamentalist Christianity is given the stamp of approval by society, yet it causes deep and lasting wounds.

Yes, help is always good. You've been at recovery longer than I have, so you may have learned some things I do not know.

Fundamentalist Christianity has blazed a path of destruction through my life, fouling friendships and isolating me. I'm having trouble finding non-Christian friends. It doesn't help that my trust in people has been completely eroded. Thanks a lot, fundies.

LH

[Freedom_from_Chains]

74. Most think of religion as benign or even good

And that within itself is part of the insidiousness of it. It masquerades as being something that is good, but is in fact quite the opposite.

You might want to take a look at Bertrand Russell, "Why I am not a Christian. It is a good place to start if you enjoy reading his kind of material.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671203231/qid=1107995604/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-9861792-1876955

[Viva_La_Revolution]

78. To you, and Lady Hawk....

I had a few friends when I was a child, who went through what you two did. I still think of them, and wonder if they were able to get away. You guys give me hope that it's possible. Thanks.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

81. Oh it is very possiable

But does take a lot of hard work particularly living in the heart of Christendom where the message is constantly reinforced that if one does not submit, one is evil.

[Bellamia]

5. Has anybody else had to deal with this group........

Yup! Not in an organized way such as you report, but hey, they are Fundamentalists, they're everywhere, they believe they are right,and in a political sense, they ARE Right......no pun intended! They are annoying indeed, but I look at it this way:They are entitled to their opinion, however wrong it may be, and I'm entitled to pay no attention whatever. That old Latin saying fits here, Illegitimus non corporendum, Don't let the b%#/**s grind you down. 'Nuff said.

[phusion]

6. Why should they be allowed...

Why should these freaks be allowed to indoctrinate kids in public schools while "paganistic" books are being burned in Colorado?

These people can't have it both ways...

[MountainLaurel]

21. Indeed

Equinox is coming up next month. I wonder what would happen if the kids in this school just happened to get tickets to the local circle meeting?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

54. You must have misunderstood

Freedom of religion means freedom to be any denomonation of Christian you want. All others need not apply.

[iverglas]

7. missing the point

I look at it this way:They are entitled to their opinion, however wrong it may be, and I'm entitled to pay no attention whatever.

A parent who does not wish to have her children propagandized at a public school by organizations whose opinions she does not share is more than entitled to her opinion -- she is entitled not to have her children propagandized.

Children in public schools are not like you and me on the internet. We can click on by. Children are a captive audience, required to be in school, attending schools paid for by the public, including the parents in question.

Children in public schools are entitled to non-discriminatory treatment. A climate in which the school is promoting a particular religious opinion is a hostile environment for a child whose family does not share that opinion and whose family objects to having it foisted on the child.

A child simply cannot "pay no attention whatever" to the things that go on in his/her school -- either as a matter of plain fact, or as a matter of self-preservation.

Speaking from Canada, I can tell you that there is absolutely no way under the sun that this would be permitted in a public school here, and that if for some reason it happened the school board would take swift and decisive action, and that if for some reason that didn't happen the provincial human rights commission would receive a complaint and act on it. And the media would feed on it. It would be regarded as religious discrimination -- and as contrary to the Canadian ethic of valuing diversity -- pure and simple.

[veteran_for_peace]

15. You are lucky,

I want to live in Canada.

[iverglas]

19. I guess so!

I have to say I almost literally don't believe it when I hear stories like this. It's like hearing that little green folk from Mars landed in the playground. It's just so utterly bizarre to think that this sort of thing actually happens.

But the thing is, wishful thinking won't make it stop, and indignation and outrage won't make it stop. People who want to exercise their rights often have to actually do something.

The US Constitution says:

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The way we'd look at it up here is that if a state (provincial, here) government gave a religious organization access to children in a public school for its proselytizing, it would be denying children who do not want to be proselytized the equal protection of the law.

It would also be denying their parents, and other taxpayers who did not want to fund schools where religious proselytizing takes place, the equal protection of the law. They are being compelled to allow their children to be proselytized, and to fund schools where a religious organization is allowed to proselytize the students.

I always see the "church and state" quibbling that goes on south of the border in situations like this, and whether this has to do with the "establishment of religion", as completely beside the point.

A society that guarantees the equal protection of the law just has a duty to protect schoolchildren in publicly operated schools from this kind of discriminatory treatment.

And the parents and taxpayers who object to such violations of children's and families' rights just might have to do something to stop it.

If a complaint to the principal doesn't work, then complain to the school board. If that doesn't work, complain to the state's department of education. (And be very sure, at each step, to point out that if there is any fallout for one's child from what one is doing, in terms of adverse treatment by teachers or other students, that will be a whole nother subject for complaint.) If that doesn't work, take legal action. Go for an injunction to prohibit the school board from discriminating against one's children by giving religious proselytizers access to them -- to the exclusion of all others not given such access, and contrary to the wishes of parents of other religions and no religion -- in circumstances in which the children have no choice but to receive the message that is conveyed.

Yes, it's lovely to teach children to be strong-minded independent thinkers.

But they're children, and they're impressionable and vulnerable, and parents are entitled to protect them from messages they do not want them to receive, and from discrimination in the schools where they go to learn, not to be proselytized and potentially adversely impacted if they do not go along with the proselytizing.

If one kid's parents don't do something, all the other kids whose parents might not even know what's going on are being affected too, and the potential results aren't nice to contemplate.

[Mystified]

17. It appears

It appears that the child wasn't propogandized at school, at least from the initial post. Did the performers preach the bible at school (or even show up at the school?) or did the child simply receive a ticket for an event after school hours? If the case is the latter then it appears everything worked. The child got the ticket, asked permission from his parent, parent did a cursory inquiry, and the child was not exposed to a religious message the parent didn't approve of. What's the problem?

[iverglas]

24. everything worked??

The child got the ticket, asked permission from his parent, parent did a cursory inquiry, and the child was not exposed to a religious message the parent didn't approve of. What's the problem?

Golly gee gosh, whatever could the problem be?

Frankly, I hardly consider it worth answering the question. We'll all just pretend that no message was conveyed to the child by the distribution at the child's school of tickets to a religious event.


The children were given the message that the religion being proselytized about was approved by the school. Otherwise, why would the school have given that religion's adherents access to the children in the school?

The children were given the message that *this* religion was approved by the school, and not other religions -- or the children would have received tickets to events organized by other religious organizations.

Would you think, for instance, that if your children were given tickets to a Republican political event at their school, they would not get the message that the school approved of Republicans but not Democrats?

What effect might it have on children of other religions (or no religion) when their school conveys this kind of message to them? Some children's religion is approved by the school; other children's is not.

The children whose religion is being promoted would quite reasonably feel approved of; children of another (or no) religion would quite reasonably feel disapproved of.

Indeed, a single isolated occurrence of something like this, among quite young children, might not have that effect. For an older child aware that s/he was different from the adherents of the religion in question, or where there was a pattern, the situation could be quite different.

It is not the role of schools to distinguish among children based on religion, or to engage in any practice that creates such a distinction in the minds of any children. That is purely and simply discrimination. And the reason that there are rules and laws against discrimination is that it can cause harm to the people who get the short end of the stick.

Messages can be conveyed subtly as well as overtly. Children may not have the analytical skills to know what is happening and why, and why it is wrong, but they are pretty attuned indeed to situations in which they are being treated as "different". And they are very vulnerable to the hurt that this can cause.

I have to wonder where you would draw the line and see a problem.

[Mystified]

28. You're inferring a lot from the original post

"The children were given the message that *this* religion was approved by the school, and not other religions -- or the children would have received tickets to events organized by other religious organizations."

Were other religious organizations holding events during that week at their churches/mosques/synagogues?

"Would you think, for instance, that if your children were given tickets to a Republican political event at their school, they would not get the message that the school approved of Republicans but not Democrats?"

No, I wouldn't think the school was promoting one party's message over the other unless, throughout the school year, the school repeatedly offered tickets to Republican events yet did not offer tickets to Democratic events taking place in the area.

Would you be equally offended if the school offered tickets to a church's concert of Christmas Carols? What about an Easter egg hunt? Or a Fall festival with games, food, music? Just because an event is sponsored by a church does not mean it has a religious message. This performance probably would have had a religious message, but not all do. However, ultimately the parent is responsible for what their child is exposed to. This parent was responsible and checked out the performance prior to telling her(?) son he could attend.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

41. Should schools allow church's to recruit like it's Career Day? NO.

I see a tactic happening to public schools that resembles the infiltration of the Democratic party so many of us are horrified over.

I think this is a 'poison pill' tactic to make even liberals opt out of the public schools they way they are opting out of the Democratic Party. The kids who are gotten to with authoritarian religion are well on their way into the military to hold the leash on an insurgent in an oil-rich country.

American public schools were originally designed by the robber barons of the early 1900s to turn out obedient worker drones and cannon fodder. It worked.

But when schools started to reflect the cultural changes in society like civil rights and tolerance and critical thinking in the 1950s through 1970s, the right attacked them with the intent of pulling kids out of the public schools so they wouldn't learn 'horrible things' like gays and women and even people in other countries are human beings, too.

So the right villified the teachers as 'politically correct' monsters of intolerance. They Orwellified liberals into evil oppressors.

Now they are allowing right wing groups to get at the kids and even mandatory psychological evaluations for their 'permanent record.'

Divide and conquer works all too well, my friends. What a scam.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

79. 20 years ago...

they had a Christian family rock band at my High School. We sat there and listened, and it sucked. They weren't any thing special, can't remember if the songs were religious, but I seem to remember just oldies and soft rock. We didn't fall for it. I don't think kids now are any more susceptible than back then, but some could be swayed by the tricks they play to get kids involved. I hadn't heard of using karate though, maybe they're running out of ideas.

[iverglas]

42. check out the stuff in my post 38

However, ultimately the parent is responsible for what their child is exposed to.

Dandy. And if the parent does not want his/her child exposed to the message that the school approves of the event for which tickets are being distributed, that's cool with you then?

As for the rest of it, you feel free to define the problem out of existence with all your hypotheticals. Your problem is that you just don't seem to have found a way around the problem of a school being perceived as approving *any* of the messages you hypothesize.

And of course how whether *you* have a problem with something really isn't the issue, notwithstanding the essentially rhetorical question I had asked.

[Mystified]

47. Well then

I suppose parents should be in an uproar over the fact that schools "promote" soft drinks as healthy alternatives to water since they offer them in vending machines on campus? Are schools "promoting" violence by having football teams? I believe there's a difference between offering something and promoting something. And actually, whether *I* have a problem with something is an issue since this is a political opinion message board that promotes the exchange of ideas. It's my opinion/idea. I understand the parent's problem with it, but to me it's not as large a problem.

[veteran_for_peace]

51. I think that there is a difference.

The schools don't require that every student drink a soft drink. They also don't require that student partcipate in "violent" team sports. They do require that all students attend these assemblies. The point is that the school by requiring student to attend did promote the ideaology whether intentional or not. That is what violate the constitutional separation of church and state.

[Viking12]

30. Good points. We aren't privy to all details.

Who distributed the tickets? Who organized the event? If it was school officials, then there's something to get worked-up about. If the event was organized independently of the school administration and tickets were distributed by other students then ther shouldn't be a problem with this event. As Mystified points out, parents should be making the decisions. If you respect free speech, freedom of religion, and free association, you couldn't object to this event being held at your child's school UNLESS the event was actually organized by the administration. This is not different from the flap over the "Postcards for Buster" episode featuring a lesbian couple.

As a parent I want to be able to make the choice. I don't want someone else to deny me of the opportunity to make the choice.

[Mystified]

31. From the original post

It looks like the group did not perform at the school. Someone offered tickets to an event taking place after school hours and off of school grounds. The children were given the option of attending or not. Nothing was forced on anyone, at least from the info we have.

[veteran_for_peace]

33. They did indeed perform

They took the entire middle school out of class to try and get them to this event after school.

[Viking12]

35. Then there is a significant problem. I stand corrected.

That detail wasn't exactly clear in your original post, thanks for clarifying. Contact the ACLU seeking assitance on "cease and desist" of this type of proselytizing to prevent future incidents.

[kiraboo]

59. BTW, let me add that the group performed in the middle-school gym

when my kids saw them. So yes, there is a problem.

[Mystified]

37. To me, it depends...

If all they did at the school was break some bricks and bend some bars without mentioning religion I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, if they said something like "Jesus, give me the strength to break these bricks" then I'd have an issue with that.

[veteran_for_peace]

40. They didn't come out and say Jesus

The problem is that they did all of this under false pretenses and lied about what their real goals for doing this "free" performance were?

[Mystified]

44. Well, like i said

I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, you did and you let them know about it when you called the number on the ticket. Sounds like you handled it well.

[veteran_for_peace]

52. The principal was at the assembly

He personally interviewed the gentlemen who was the main actor.

[youthere]

26. well spoken iverglas

"valuing diversity" what a concept.Cheers to Canada.

[lazarus]

69. See?

We can agree on some things. :-)

[donheld]

76. They are NOT allowed to bring this crap into a publicly funded school

Not as long as we have a quazi-separation of church and state.

[Zenaholic]

8. The only way a religion can continue to exist...

...is to indoctrinate the children.

The next generation of religious zealots is sitting right there in public schools just waiting to be "enlightened".
:scared:

[Ian David]

9. Indoctrinating Xianity=good? Indoctrinating tolerance=bad?

What is wrong with these people?

[cags]

10. Thats why we need to teach our children to question and be

thinking people. I teach my kids to not believe everything someone tells them just because they are an adult. They are encouraged to question, research and make up thier own minds(even if they disagree with me!) You can't protect your kids from everyone, but you can give them the tools to be able to protect themselves.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

11. Yes. Question authority in all its forms and personal responsibility.

"The Devil made me do it" is never an acceptable answer. By teaching my kids to make up their own minds based on rational thought and taking ownership of their decisions, the fundies don't stand a chance of converting my kids. :evilgrin:

[cags]

32. Oh yes! Personal responsibility is so important too

It creates kids in charge of thier own lives and breeds independence,

You are what you make of yourself. No one can stop you unless you let them.

They are no victims in my house.

[veteran_for_peace]

36. I agree

The problem is that the children believe what those in authority over them tell them. If the teacher and school administration say to them this is about not doing drugs then most kids will believe them. What upsets me the most is the way they are trying to manipulate our children in order to start the indoctrination process.

[callous taoboy]

12. We had some former football star come

and do these things. He was drunk. I smelled alcohol on him and he was slurring his words before the program.

[BiggJawn]

13. Is this the "Power Team"?

Link didn't work. I think we all broke it...:evilgrin:

Those assholes have been around for years. All "saved" from a life of sex, drugs (but not 'roids) and <gasp!> rock n' roll...

[veteran_for_peace]

49. Donnie Moore was a member

[Ezlivin]

53. I think it is the Power Team

http://www.thepowerteam.com/

[progressivebydesign]

16. We have "Young LIfe" indoctrinating at out schools....

.. gee kids, come on over for some pizza and fun!! (but dont' mention the part where you have to dedicate your life to Jesus at the end, and fill out prayer cards with your phone number on it). All being pushed at the schools here... :puke:

[Athame]

20. Young Life is Salvation Army

or at least it was run by the SA in my area. My son got hooked into them for a while because they came on school grounds (high school) and brought vans to go to skate parks after school. Like you said, they had pizza parties and other "fun" stuff, increasing the bible message only little by little. It was very difficult to find out anything about them, who their leaders were, how were they screened, etc. But I let my son go and he figured it out for himself eventually. Of course, he was raised in a Unitarian Universalist religious education program, which pretty much vaccinated him against religious dogma. I was still quite angry at the Young Life tactics.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Salvation Army is a bit odd.

I had a friend in college whose whole family had been in it, and the stories she told sure sounded like a cult to me. They do really good work, and they're great in disaster zones, but their church is scary.

[youthere]

18. Please bear with me..

I tend to ramble a little (lot) so forgive me. I am a christian and I homeschool my kids. I do not homeschool them to isolate them from secularism and immerse them in Christianity. I homeschool them to protect them from exactly what the OP described. I live in an area where fundamentalism is growing. It's a rural area and within a 10 mile radius there are 6 fundamental christian movements(churches). They wait by the playground (just off school property) for school to get out and hand out tickets to events they are having, tracts, new testament bibles, and sometimes toys. They approach elementary children and ask them if they are saved and then terrify them by telling them they are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior. They have their children pass out tracts and flyers to all the children in the class, and have them "witness" to their schoolmates. Can you imagine the Gospel as spoken by a 5 year old fundie? The school has stepped in on some very serious offenses but it seems as though the school is getting indoctrinated bit by bit as well as they are less willing to intervene. I'm repulsed (and frightened) by this alarming trend I see in our school. We decided to homeschool our kids so that they would be exposed to true Christianity (as well as learn about other faith beliefs and learn to respect them) and we could encourage their ability to become free thinkers. I just cannot sit by and watch my children stand in the oncoming path of that speeding semi called fundamentalism. I agree that it is much like the approach used by child molestors...good metaphor.

[G_j]

22. 'bearing with you' indeed

good post, and it is reassuring to hear from a sane Christian and realize that these maniacs threaten everyone, Christians included.

[youthere]

25. thank you ..

you're very gracious.

[Not_Giving_Up]

23. I haven't heard from these people, but...

Every year, shortly after school lets out for summer, we get postcards from a local church about vacation bible school. No biggie? Well, they aren't addressed to "resident"...they are addressed to my kids by name, one for each child! I know the school district is giving out the info, that's the only place they could have gotten it. I've called and complained, but never gotten anywhere.

[youthere]

27. I heard of a similar thing that happened

in the next town over (we're rural Iowa here). It was the postmistress who was a member of the church who was collecting the names and adresses for the church mailings. She's not the postmistress there any longer but I don't know if it was because of this. I've heard of city clerks doing the same thing.

[iverglas]

38. injunction! injunction!

Pretend I can photoshop, and it says "injunction". ;)

Up here, we also have some pretty tough privacy laws, and federal and provincial Privacy Commissioners to whom complaints about violations of privacy by public officials can be made.

The good thing about public officers like a Privacy Commissioner -- we also have Information Commissioners, Official Languages Commissioners, all modeled on the "ombudsman" function -- is that if they think there are potentially grounds for a complaint, they investigate, and have the power to compel public bodies to cooperate with their investigations, by going to court if necessary. If the Privacy Commissioner received information that suggested that an employee of the post office had disclosed personal information, he'd be all over it.

But in the meantime, isn't that sort of thing -- the original comment about a school disclosing students' names and addresses -- what the ACLU is for?

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLibertyList.cfm?c=139&ContentType=&ContentStyle=1&num=1000
They seem to focus a fair bit on the creationism in the schools thing.

Two cases involving the distribution of bibles in schools:

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15914&c=139

A Kansas City Metro Area school district has agreed to stop distributing Gideon International Bibles to elementary-school children on school premises, settling a federal lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas and Western Missouri on behalf of a Roman Catholic father of three.

“The role of the public school is to be neutral on matters of religion,” said Dick Kurtenbach, Executive Director of the ACLU of Kansas and Western Missouri. “When public schools are neutral, they are serving both the interests of religion and the government.”

Under the terms of a court-ordered agreement, called a consent decree, the Smithville R-II School District agreed that it would not “aid, abet, or assist in the distribution of Bibles to school children on school premises,” or “grant permission to any non-student to distribute Bibles on school premises.”

... Geniuk also claimed that “by placing the imprimatur of government approval on the distribution of Gideon Bibles to elementary school children, <the school district’s> conduct has caused and will cause irreparable harm to my right to determine the religious upbringing of my children.” ...

... Shumaker and Jackson expressed their satisfaction with the consent decree and said that Geniuk was delighted that the public school will stop giving unwelcome religious materials to students with diverse beliefs in violation of their constitutionally protected rights.

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=7214&c=139

The American Civil Liberties Union of Louisiana filed a lawsuit here today on behalf of an 11-year-old Muslim girl who was humiliated when she refused to accept a Bible handed out by her public school principal. ...

Yazied and Fatima Jabr, whose two children are the only Muslims who attend Paradise Elementary school in Pineville, filed a complaint with the ACLU after their daughter, Hesen, was made to accept a Bible and became the target of harassment at her school because she told classmates that her family does not read the Bible.

“You cannot imagine the heartbreak and the anguish of dealing with your children's doubt about their own faith, especially when they are still too young and immature to completely understand the differences between the faiths and what makes us all different,” said Fatima Jabr, Hesen’s mother. “All we can hope is that others will treat our children in the way that we have taught them to treat others--with respect.”

... The ACLU said that a majority of Supreme Court justices have recognized that a student in a classroom or other school setting has relatively little choice but to go along with school officials in such situations. Hesen had already learned that lesson with Mr. Cotton.

Hey, I guess I'm not the only one who sees a problem with the distribution of religious messages in public schools. ;)

[Xithras]

58. Nope, in the US it's legal under FERPA

Legally, under the Family Educational Records and Privacy Act, your childrens enrollment records and contact information can be released to any legitimate third party organization, from military recruiters to church and youth groups to companies trying to sell them cereal and comic book subscriptions. They can't release information like classes attended and grades achieved, but they CAN give out your home address.

To opt out, a parent simply has to provide the school with a written request that their child be excluded from future "FERPA directory releases". The problem, of course, is that colleges and background check firms also use this information when doing recruiting and that by excluding yourself from the list you'll make it impossible for colleges interested in your kids to contact you.

In the case of the original poster, it's probably too late anyway...the childs name is already in their database so they'll probably keep receiving the Bible School notices until they move. Once the name is in the churches database, it's unlikely that it will be removed. Personally, I receive something similar for my kids every year and it doesn't bother me. If they really want to waste a quarter to mail us an advertisement that's going straight into my garbage can, more power to them.

[iverglas]

65. ew!

I looked it up:
http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html

Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance.

Lordy. Not up here they can't!

For example, in Ontario:
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/curricul/osr/osr.html

Both the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, which applies to schools operated by school boards, and the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, which applies to Provincial and Demonstration Schools, prohibit institutions from releasing personal information in their custody or under their control to anyone other than the person to whom the information relates, except in certain circumstances. These circumstances are defined in the legislation, and it is up to the head of an institution to decide whether or not to grant access to personal information in such circumstances. School boards should therefore consult with their freedom of information coordinators to determine whether they should develop policies on access to OSRs. Any such policies must be developed in accordance with the legislation.

The two Acts say essentially the same thing:
http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/sta/f-31/20041104/whole.html

“personal information” means recorded information about an identifiable individual, including, ...

(d) the address, telephone number, fingerprints or blood type of the individual, ...

(h) the individual’s name where it appears with other personal information relating to the individual or where the disclosure of the name would reveal other personal information about the individual; ...

Personal privacy

21. (1) A head shall refuse to disclose personal information to any person other than the individual to whom the information relates except,

(a) upon the prior written request or consent of the individual, if the record is one to which the individual is entitled to have access;

(b) in compelling circumstances affecting the health or safety of an individual, if upon disclosure notification thereof is mailed to the last known address of the individual to whom the information relates;

(c) personal information collected and maintained specifically for the purpose of creating a record available to the general public;

(d) under an Act of Ontario or Canada that expressly authorizes the disclosure;

(e) for a research purpose if, ... or

(f) if the disclosure does not constitute an unjustified invasion of personal privacy.

I don't see anything particular on the Toronto District School Board site, for instance.

But it does say this: ;)

Diversity is Our Strength
The TDSB is proud to be one of the most diverse and multicultural school systems in the world. The TDSB values the contribution of all members of our diverse community of students, staff, parents, and community groups to achieve our mission and goals.

... followed by a list of various public and religious "days of significance".


Anyhow, I'm flabbergasted ... again ... that schools in the US would be permitted to just hand out lists of their students' identifying personal information -- information about kids, who are by definition vulnerable -- willy-nilly to anybody "legitimate" who wanted it.

[Not_Giving_Up]

77. Our school district send home forms at the beginning of each school year

You check in what instances your child's information is allowed to be released. There is no option to never release your child's information. I didn't sign it, and my son came home with another one, saying he'd get lunch detention if it wasn't returned. I signed it, not checking any options, and with a written note that they should contact me before releasing information to ANYONE. So...how did this church get the names of both of my children (at two different schools) and their home addresses? Yes, it was two years in a row, but we moved during that time, still within the same district. I tried to call the district office, but no one was answering the phones...school was just out, and summer school had not yet started. I forgot about it until now. When the postcards come this year, I won't quit, I'm sick of this crap. I did try to call the number for the church on the postcard, but there was no answer, so I left a message stating that I wanted to know where they got my children's names. My call was never returned.

[Az]

29. I often wonder how they would react

If atheists and humanists stood around outside their churches and handed out pamphlets detailing whats wrong with Christian belief.

Christian religion is prevalent in this world not because of its message or because it is the truth. It is prevalent because it is one of the more aggressive religions focused on spreading its doctrine.

Christianity depends on indoctrinating new members. And as most people become resistant to new belief systems by the time they reach puberty the church has to recruit new members at an early age.

[Bunny]

34. I would love to see the look on some of their faces when their child

brings home a ticket to a an atheist-sponsored event, or a Muslim one, or a Jewish one, or a pagan one. Things would sure be different then, wouldn't they? Oh the outcry!!!

[veteran_for_peace]

45. I know

I asked the guy I spoke to about this and he said that he would support anybody exercises the right to freedom of speech. :puke:

[PassingFair]

39. Yup, yup

I was outraged last year when a bunch of old geezer gideons were handing out bibles and tracts on the sidewalk outside my kids middle school. The kids HAD to walk by them to get home.
I called the principal, but she told me that as they were on the sidewalk, there was nothing she could do about it.
I told her that if I was out there passing out copies of Satan's Little Handbook or somesuch, that I damn well bet someone would do something about it. She sympathized, she really did. She was later removed from her post for her stance against a parent led prayer group at the school!

[Az]

46. As long as it is their religion being pushed anything goes

As soon as another belief system shows up and demands the same access all hell breaks loose.

There was a case here in Michigan not too long ago where a school had a bible study club that met after school in the building. Because it was student sponsored it avoided entanglement issues. But when a group of atheist students decided to start their own bible study group the community hit the roof. The only recourse the principal had was to ban all after school activities.

[earthboundmisfit]

43. Our middle school's yearly 6th grade retreat - at a Fundie camp

where, according to the camp's website, the staff "all believe that we are in the end times", frankly terrified me. Although "not mandatory" for all children to attend, the pressure was definitely there - "What? But you HAVE to go! You'll be missing out on all the FUN!" said my child's teacher, and (knowing we are poor & thinking it might be because we didn't have the money - "I'll call your your mother - we have a fund to cover if you can't pay." She called me, and was taken aback when I told her that I would not feel comfortable sending my non-Christian child to a fundamentalist Christian camp for an afternoon, much less for FOUR DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. I asked her to imagine how a Christian parent might feel about sending their child to sleep-away camp at a Buddhist or Muslim retreat. She assured me that no religious activities would take place, but that she did understand and respect my feelings. The only way I knew this was to be held at the ministry camp was in reading the small print on the liability disclaimer form - and when I found the camp's website the tale was told. Through the public school they lured kids with promises of fun and "character building" games, making the 5 or 6 kids who didn't go feel like they "missed out". Luckily my kid's a born & raised Unitarian Universalist and 1)keeps an ear out for ploys like this and 2)knows BS (even when it's presented as fun and candy).
I did some legal checking and found there's nothing illegal about the public school pushing this. It's even been ruled that it's OK for religious tracts to be handed out with other fliers the kids bring home, as long as the public school does not sponsor or pressure to attend.
I wonder how a UU or Buddhist or Muslim tract on tolerance would go over if we sent them home with the public school kids...

[Behind the Aegis]

50. I said this before

In another thread, I stated (actually another poster brought it up first) that we, liberals, and progressives, should start our own private schools, where science is fact, not religion and where children are free to learn without worrying they are the "wrong" religion, etc. Plus, parents can get those neat school vouchers! Isn't it interesting that the vouchers were created to get kids away from 'darkies' and other undesirables (secularists), but we could turn it around to get the children away from "fundies!"

[MountainLaurel]

55. A lot of liberals are homeschooling

For that very reason. I wonder if those loose HS networks could be tied together somehow into small schools?

[Behind the Aegis]

56. I have heard that.

You know I really wonder how it could be done. The schools would start out very small, but I bet they would grow rapidly. Especially since the democrats and progressives like to pay people for work. Imagine...teachers being paid a living wage!! What a world!

[MountainLaurel]

57. Good question

En route to work, I pass two Montessori schools that are in residential neighborhood, in homes. I would guess that starting out would depend on the laws and requirements of your state.

[lateo]

62. Indeed.

We need to remove ourselves from the BS public school systems and create our own school system.

[iverglas]

67. I've gotta say I'm shocked

The idea of abandoning the public schools ... I dunno.

There are so many reasons not to.

For one thing, if the alternative is "home-schooling": who does the home-schooling? Women. Overwhelmingly. Women who are then not in the labour force, not out there in the public agora, not economically independent, not visible in the workplace and all the other loci of public activity. In the home ... right where the right wing and the fundies want them. Why is this return to the past considered to be a good thing?

And who are the public schools being abandoned to? The right wing and the fundies. So what about all the kids whose families can't afford to have a stay-at-home-mawm, or whose parents aren't qualified to teach or capable of teaching them, or whose mothers simply want to live adult lives in the adult economic world? What about children with special educational needs their parents can't meet? Aren't they entitled to a respectful, sound education?

What happens when large numbers of relatively well-off members of a society withdraw from its public institutions and programs? Well, often, they don't want to keep paying for the services they aren't using. They want "vouchers" to take their money elsewhere (and those who don't need the service at all, taxpayers without school-aged children, just don't want to pay in). A shrinking funding base reduces the public schools' ability to provide any services beyond the basics. And then the public schools aren't just staying the same, they're being degraded.

How does withdrawing from the public schools help your society?

To my mind, it simply exacerbates a host of problems.

I just don't understand why so many people in the US seem to be so unwilling to stand up and demand what they are entitled to. Parents are simply entitled not to have their children indoctrinated with religion by the public schools -- members of the society/taxpayers are entitled not to have any children indoctrinated with religion by the public schools. Children in the public schools are entitled not to be made to feel different or diminished because they are not in the favoured religious (or any other) group.

I really, honestly just don't get it. Where would your society be today if Brown hadn't sued the Board of Education and just home-schooled instead?

http://www.nationalcenter.org/brown.html

(c) Where a State has undertaken to provide an opportunity for an education in its public schools, such an opportunity is a right which must be made available to all on equal terms.

"ON EQUAL TERMS." It can't be said much more simply than that.

[youthere]

71. You make a valid argument.

And as a homeschooler I can tell you that yes, most women do take the responsibility while the hubbies sit back. Some of these women don't want to be doing it and feel obligated to because their husbands or their churches pressure them into it. These also tend to be the extreme extreme fundamentalist psychopaths(you know there are fundies and then there are FUNDIES). (Homeschooling definitely appeals to people on the "fringe"). In our case (and others like us) we both still work (albeit I only work part time) so we both oversee the homeschooling. He sets up lessons for certain things and I do it for others. We actually know a couple that both work fulltime. The kids go to a sitter in the day and they "go to school" in the evenings.
I see value in the points that you make, and all I can say is that it works for us. I know that its not ideal for everyone but for our family it was a good solution.
This fundie infiltration was not the only reason we chose this path. Ours is a struggling school district both financially and academically, there were drug and other social issues issues (yes drugs, in rural iowa-there isn't a lot to do) it just seemed as though our district was in a downward spiral (and still is). There were personal reasons that went into this as well but I won't go into those because we'd REALLY get off subject.
I do feel guilty at times-abandoning the kids who have no other option. I make no excuses for that.
We did try to do something about the "witnessing" situation in our schools, but got nowhere because these groups act "just within" the law. Even if the school tries to intervene really can't do much if no laws are violated-perhaps they've given up.
I don't recomend a mass exodus of the school system in fact I think that too many people are too quick to jump on the "home-schooling bandwagon", but in our situation it was the right choice.
I would like to an independent progressive school system as mentioned in a previous post. I would support it wholeheartedly. Until then...sigh.

[LeftyMom]

75. I think you have some misconceptions about homeschooling families

In most homeschooling families that I know the father is involved in instruction but the mother is the primary educator. This is more practical from most families because men tend to make more money (it sucks, but it's the reality,) because youngere children at home need thier mothers more and often because the mother is more passionate about homeschooling and parenting in general. This hardly implies that the mother is cut off from the community and it's econonmy. I'm a homeschooling mother myself, I work full time from home. Most of the mothers I know who homeschool have thier own businesses or work for someone else, because it's nearly impossible to make ends meet otherwise.

So I'm home, giving my son the best education availible instead of subjecting to the awfulness local school. Sure, I could send my son to school up the street and add my voice to the other parents demanding change. Would it make a damned bit of difference? No. I can't get rid of NCLB or California's overlapping and equally stupid testing system, I can't change the budget so that there's enough money to keep all the schools in the local district open and staff them fully. I can't fil thier libraries with books or pay for the field trips they used to take. I don't have it in me to bash my head against the wall trying to change an institution that isn't willing to change and couldn't afford to do so anyhow. Maybe that's a failing on my part.

You know what I can do? I can read to LeftyKid and let him read to me. I can help a friend's daughter to write words on the refrigerator in magnetic letters and encourage her to keep the hope that she will learn to read someday, no matter what labels the school system has given her or how discouraged they have made her. I can bring another kid when I take LeftyKid to a museum, aquarium, trip to the mountains or whatever we're doing as a family. I can pay taxes into a school system that does not benefit my family, because I know that money will help my neighbors' children.

We all do our part in our own way. Please don't imply that homeschooling families aren't, we're just doing our best for our community by giving our children the best possible start.

[lapislzi]

68. Point taken, but that should be what PUBLIC education is for

It makes my blood boil that these zealots are trying to infiltrate the institutions that my taxes support.

Homeschooling requires that a parent actually *be* at home to school the child. For most people, this isn't an option. My take on homeschooling is that it's another tool to keep women at home, out of the workforce, invisible. I have no figures, but I'll bet the majority of homeschool teachers are moms.

You can't hoist them by their own petard on this one. Vouchers are a bad, bad idea. Rather restore public schools to their original purpose, don't you think?

[Behind the Aegis]

72. I agree with you!

However, we have no power. Perhaps, when the tides turn, we can do more, but now, it is like spinning your wheels in the mud. I agree that it is so inappropriate that these people misuse public education. But, we have a culture of fear to contend with. Teachers are afraid to speak out against the fundies because it is their job on the line. The administration is afraid to speak out because of law suits. The children are afraid to speak out because of peer pressure. Until we can get way-lay these fears, we will not get any further.

To me, it is almost like the gay school in NYC. It is a safe space that children can actually focus on learning instead of where the next attack will come from. Just my opinion.

I know it doesn't sound like it, but I really do agree with what you said.

[youthere]

70. What an inspired idea.

That is precisely why we homeschool, to protect our kids from the fundies and from a school that will not serve my children's best interests. If I had an option like the ones that you describe above you can bet my kids would be enrolled in a heartbeat.

[lateo]

61. Assembly of God are a bunch of religious freaks...

I should know my family is full of them. I wonder why your school is allowing this sort of nonsense.

[Az]

63. Its not on school grounds

They lay in ambush just outside the school grounds and hand out pamphlets with invitations to misleading events. The kids get excited to see martial arts (in this case) and pester their parents to go see it. When they get there its a bait and switch. They get some Jesus shoved down their throat.

[lateo]

64. OIC

[KuTava]

82. So should Christian children be banned from campus,

or only adults?

[veteran_for_peace]

86. Neither

But they should keep their religious programs at their churches. Isn't it a sin to lie. Or is that only when a president lies about a blowjob.

[iverglas]

88. so who ya talkin to?

So should Christian children be banned from campus,
or only adults?

Maybe if you could find the poster who said that Christian (presumably) adults should be banned from campus, you'd get an answer.

Stick around; you may learn how to discuss issues without misrepresenting your interlocutors.