i told my two children about the "child in restaurant" thread

[seabeyond]

we like to chat. we like to explore all kinds of things in life. i told them some people dont think a child should be in a restaurant. that even if the child behaves they still have a problem with the child being there. that i was really surprised people felt this way. in 43 years, i have never heard my many non child friends talk about children that way. my 7 year old says, really? surprised himself. my 9 year old edmund, says ya i know.

we were walking into the united grocery store in our neighborhood that we spend so much time in and know everyone. we were getting valentine cards and candy, so feeling good. 9 year old had a cart. my littlest went to salad bar to look, i say, get away from there. realizing there is an older man that may say, oooosh that bad kid looking at the uncovered food getting germs everywhere. we walk a little further and someone walks torwards us, i make sure both kids are well out of way of adult to make sure he isnt bothered by my brats. by now i am about in giggle and i say as we go across the store........you know, some of these adults dont think you ought to be in a grocery store either.


well my little 9 year old had enough. he says to all you adults

you dont matter. that kids have rights too. and you adults are just going to have to deal with kids being in this world

so there you all go. edmund jonas and i have all decided those that chose to not like appreciate value or want children anywhere near you

tough

they have rights too. and i am going to protect there rights

and we were all over in that store, the boys going off to gather stuff all by themselves, not on leash at my side

[havocmom]

1. Your kids welcome at my house!

But we DO NOT allow cranky people who don't like kids in at all!

[Neoma]

3. Them cranky people

sounds like Ageists.

[seabeyond]

12. and yours at mine, and if the noise is happy noise

we so dont mind noise. can even run in joy (but outside, lol, tryin to break the habit of running in house, these out of control children, you know)

[havocmom]

19. My 'little' kid is coming up on 32 pretty damned soon.

But I have a big dog who loves to play with 'two-legged-puppies'. Can he come? :D

[seabeyond]

22. bah hahahah that is funny. and thank you n/t

[shraby]

2. I would keep the children near while you

are shopping for one reason, their safety. Children left by themselves in stores can and do disappear. Remember Adam Walsh.

[seabeyond]

7. yes they can. i am taking a risk you are right

the odds are about at 0 percent chance of anything happening to them. they are also well aware of danger and would yell there head off. i am also never far away and they are never away from me but a minute. i am really good at allowing my children the ability to gain a sense of independence, yet still be a watchful hen. just another challenge we parents have in this world today to both protect our children but allow them to grow in the most natural and healthy way we possibly can

[LiberalinNC]

4. Your 9 year old is very smart!

I have 3 kids and hate it when I get dirty looks from people when we are seated next to them. My kids are extremely well behaved in resturants - the trick is, is to keep the busy, crayons, coloring books, flash cards, etc.

[seabeyond]

8. mine are older. i dont even need books, crayons, or toys

anymore. they sit and we talk.

"when I get dirty looks from people when we are seated"

we have nothing to apologize for, wink

[LiberalinNC]

15. Lucky YOU!!!!

[Clark2008]

5. My 5 year old son and I applaud you and your children!

I take Ramzey EVERYWHERE.

In fact, when I go somewhere without him, everyone keeps wondering where he is! LOL!

Including former presidential candidates!

[seabeyond]

10. clark i just love it love it, you betcha

what a grand picture and a high five to your five year old. i love five

and they are the future after all

that is a wonderful picture

[ultraist]

85. That is an awesome photo!

I have taken my 10 year old to events with me before too! She is quite the little activist. She was on the local news last summer making a statement about John Edwards. LOL! I saved the video clip for her.

Your son has probably learned a lot about elections, hasn't he? That's great you are getting him involved so young. The only problem is, he may want to get involved in politics when he grows up! LOL!

[Old Mouse]

6. We recently went to Europe with our small child

It was shocking how friendly and kind they are to children over there. It was such a contrast from the United States.

Here, I have even heard people complain about people taking their children to museums. That's ridiculous!

[ClassicDem]

13. Same thing in Japan,

I was always surprised about how child friendly Japan is, I would never have guessed that the birth rate in that country is down you see kids everywhere.

[hfojvt]

38. I find that hard to believe

My brother said that his infant son was a babe magnet when he took him shopping. Also, we had this six or eight year old boy come to a singles group, and he completely became the center of attention.
Of course, Europe may be even more kid centered than here because of their declining (or low) birth rates.

[Old Mouse]

97. That can be true

But restaurants and public paces are set in ways that actively discourage bringing children. And the "babe magnet" effect disappears if the child cries, or wets, or does any of a thousand child activities. Europe is so different.

And it's not the birth rate problem. That's worse in Japan, and happing at the same rate here. It's just harder to get the accurate data.

[Clark2008]

103. Well, that's one thing for the South, then..

I never get looked at weird because my son's with me.. but, then, we have that high divorce rate (I am divorced, but I'm still laughing at the fundies!), so I guess it's accepted.
My son's my Valentine. We're going out and splurgin'! Hey, I love him more than anyone else, so why the hell not!? ;)

[shrike]

125. On the other hand

We went to Mexico last year, and we were surprised how well-behaved the CHILDREN were. Even when they were by themselves, running around, riding their bikes, etc. Kids like that can fit in everywhere.

Mexico seems very family-centered, though.

[Rowdyboy]

9. I'm sure your children are well behaved but not all children are...

I see older people shopping all the time. Many are unsteady on their feet and a fall could be life-threatening. Old bones break easily, and a hip can mean the difference in living independently and institutionalization. When my mom's was broken, she was hospitalized for 4 months. When I see children running through the aisles, dodging people and chasing each other, I realize they mean no harm, but I feel their parents aren't doing their job or thinking about the potential consequences to others.

Children should be able to have fun, and run and play, but the grocery store is not the place for it.

[tishaLA]

17. Customers LOVE to have seven year olds "look" at salad bars

that means they put their faces right up by the food, breathing on it, etc. There's a reason salad bars have "sneeze guards" and why sneeze guards aren't lower than tney are.

If I wanted children breathing/sneezing on my food, I'd have some.

[seabeyond]

23. you know lifes a bitch. all the risks in life huh

i watched the woman behind the bakery counter take her hand across the nose before she asked me if she could help me. didnt flip out. didnt tell her go wash her hands. she got a paper and gave me my donut. and i didnt worry about it at all. but you want to be concerned about a child breathing on that food i would suggest you not do that salad bar, because my child was not the only one in the store on any given day, and a lot worse shit happens to that stuff

[tishaLA]

24. I prefer not to have children breathe on my food

if you don't have a problem with the bakery woman wiping her nose, more power to you. But to pretend that people objecting to children sticking their faces in food is OK? Wrong. Things like salad bars are set up with sneeze guards with the expecttion that parents will parent and keep children away.

I also don't care if 200 children came up to the salad bar on a given day or if a lot worse shit happens to that stuff. It just proves there are a lot of parents who won't take responsibility while they make excuses.

[seabeyond]

26. and my son feels that he has a right to salad too

that it is there for him too

what about the short person. are they not allowed to have salad. what about the person that bend down and peers thru

nope. my 7 year old wants a salad, he gets one.

think twice, three times before getting that salad i say with a wicked smile

now i ma going to go cook dinner for my darlins, but you dont have to like them nor think they are darlins, that is your right

[iverglas]

33. you know, your attitude just isn't too pleasant

For someone who is demanding her "rights", you don't seem to have much respect for anybody else's.

Your children are perfectly entitled to salad. They are *not* entitled to snot in or prod anybody else's salad. It's a simple as that.

And the unfortunate fact of nature being that children are short, not to mention often snotty and prone to putting their fingers randomly into things, the decent parent keeps them a polite distance from salad bars. That beats walloping their fingers when they stick them in salads, which they are quite naturally and foreseeably and not at all blameably likely to do, and it beats other people having to eat salads that have had snotty fingers in them.

I'm just amazed that so many people hereabouts seem to think that their and their children's "rights" somehow trump other people's perfectly legitimate interests.

When I am grocery shopping, I simply don't want to be banged into by shopping carts pushed by children, as I sometimes am. I'm really absolutely entitled not to have shopping carts pushed into me. There really is not any reason why I should be tolerant of having shopping carts pushed into me.

When I am paying money to eat a meal in a restaurant where I have an expectation of peace -- not a McDonalds, not a "family restaurant" -- I really am absolutely entitled to do just that: eat, and enjoy the company at my own table, in peace.

Children are, quite naturally and foreseeably and not at all blameably, loud. They can be persuaded to be a little less so, but not consistently and not necessarily. In my extended family, children are patiently and quietly reminded: "inside voice, 'Johnny'." (And there is zero tolerance for a horrid habit that is widespread today, that I would have been smacked silly for in the 50s: screaming.) Nobody can predict when a kid is going to pitch a fit, or just get excited, and make a multidecibel noise. It isn't their fault, I don't blame them -- but in some circumstances, I simply don't want to listen to them.

Noise, particularly certain kinds of noises, is a stressor; unwanted noise has both physical and psychological negative effects. I no more want to listen to an incessant stream of loud high-pitched children's voices in a restaurant where I have gone to relax in peace, no matter how happy and well-behaved they are, than I want to listen to a dental drill while trying to read, or be awakened by a horn honking.

Car horns, dogs' barks and children's voices are in fact designed, by nature or engineers, to get people's attention, to arouse people to action: adrenaline pumps, heart rate rises, respiration increases. That's not something that I, or anybody else whose mind and body responds naturally to that kind of trigger, can just get over. And it's not something I want happening to me, for absolutely no good reason, when I'm trying to relax.

Mention was made in one of these discussions of adults on cell phones ... apparently someone was trying to make a right out of two wrongs. I expect the restaurant where I'm paying money for a peaceful meal to keep that kind of noise out of my face too, and indeed many such places now require that cell phone conversations be held outside the dining room.

Children aren't adults. They don't drive cars, they don't have jobs, they don't pay taxes, and they don't pay the bill at the restaurant -- and they ought not to disrupt the enjoyment of customers who do. The fact that parents are paying their own bill just doesn't entitle the parents to impose their children on the rest of us.

[bpilgrim]

57. taser'em

that'll teach'em

peace

[bloom]

132. you make some valid points regarding salads, but....

this is just ridiculous:

" I no more want to listen to an incessant stream of loud high-pitched children's voices in a restaurant where I have gone to relax in peace, no matter how happy and well-behaved they are"


If you can't stand to hear high-pitched voices whether they are happy ones or not - you should just stay home.

[iverglas]

137. ah yes

If you can't stand to hear high-pitched voices whether they are happy ones or not - you should just stay home.

And if you don't want to listen to my boom box in said restaurant, then *you* should just stay home. *I* happen to enjoy my music, and I'm sure that some other people do too, and the others can go jump off a bridge.

What is so bloody wrong with an individual wishing to pay for an interlude of peace and relaxation without having his/her peace and relaxation intruded on by other people's activities??

Nobody's going to playgrounds, or public transportation, or Macdonalds, or grocery stores, or anywhere else where one would expect to find children, and suggesting that children should be seen and not heard.

But I'll tell ya, if you'd suggested that I "just stay home" because I was considerably less than thrilled when I went to the swimming pool of the expensive hotel I was staying in during the early-morning ADULT swim hour, for a little calm enjoyment of my own body and mind, and found me and the two old folks doing silent laps sharing the pool with Mr. Mom and the two-year-old in his arms whose non-stop shouts and shrieks pierced the otherwise completely quiet room the entire time I was there, I'd probably have drowned you as a self-righteous waste of space.

There is a time and a place for just about everything. My cell phone (if I had one, which I most certainly don't) and boom box (ditto) do not belong in quiet restaurants. Neither do children who have not yet acquired the physical or intellectual ability to modulate their voices to match the environment. And neither do their selfish parents.

Children are not adults. They do not behave like adults, and they should not be expected to. Children should not be placed in situations where they are expected to behave like adults -- whether it be in intimate proximity to salad bars or in quiet restaurants, or behind the wheel of either a car or a grocery cart. They can't and won't, and the way they do behave is entirely likely to be irritating, or more, to the adults present. They aren't likely evil or even badly-behaved, nor are their parents necessarily bad parents. The children's natural, unblameworthy behaviour is simply inappropriate, and the parents' decision to insert the children into such situations even more so.

And if you can't stand the idea that other people's legitimate interests occasionally trump your or anyone else's whims, then home isn't where I'd suggest you be going.

[bloom]

141. The trouble is you weren't talking about the volume

you were talking about the "pitch".

So I think it is ridiculous to complain about the pitch of someones voice and pretend you have some "right" not to hear certain pitches.

There could women with high-pitched voices. Do they need to avoid restaurants, also?

Someone else mentioned they noticed rude stares whenever she ate out with a group of deaf people who made lots of hand movements and sometimes odd sounding noises. Do they have to avoid restaurants also?

And this has nothing to do with boom boxes in restaurants...

No - I think it is the people who cannot deal with people who are the ones who should avoid public places.

[iverglas]

145. forgive me, but I know what I said

I have a habit of saying what I mean, and meaning what I say.

What I said was this:

Children are, quite naturally and foreseeably and not at all blameably, loud.

If they weren't loud, then the pitch of their voices would hardly matter, would it?

There could women with high-pitched voices. Do they need to avoid restaurants, also?

Do you want to try another straw person now? Maybe you can find one with a high-pitched loud voice.

Someone else mentioned they noticed rude stares whenever she ate out with a group of deaf people who made lots of hand movements and sometimes odd sounding noises. Do they have to avoid restaurants also?

I dunno. Is being offended by difference the same as being physically and mentally stressed by a stress-inducing stimulus?

And this has nothing to do with boom boxes in restaurants...

Hey! I love my boombox! You love your kids! Who exactly are you to tell me where I can't take my boombox??

I think it is the people who cannot deal with people who are the ones who should avoid public places.

And I think it is people who have not a shred of consideration for others who should refrain from telling the world that fact, for the world really may not be too interested in what they want some day.

[bloom]

146. Children aren't all loud

any more than adults.

"Children are, quite naturally and foreseeably and not at all blameably, loud."

So that is ridiculous too.


But that that is a different issue from the pitch one you had mentioned.

[iverglas]

148. buh bye

[bloom]

154. good luck with that

maybe you can use ear plugs in restaurants (where you can't put people on "ignore" or whatever).

[iverglas]

158. thanks ever so

I do find that continuing conversations with people whose end of them consists of red herrings, straw people, misrepresentations and that sort of thing is just not worth the time.

[blondeatlast]

174. Why are you keeping it up, then?

I see very clearly what your problem with children and anyone else who doesn't suit you is.

They just might be CORRECT.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

185. Got more personal attacks? nt

[iverglas]

187. well let me put it nice and sensitively

I see very clearly what your problem with children and anyone else who doesn't suit you is.
They just might be CORRECT.

Perhaps you can draw me a diagram, or a road map, or even just a word picture, and show me how you see something that I just can't see for the life of me.

The cut and paste function works very well for when one is wishing to substantiate one's allegations about what one sees in what someone else has written. Feel free to give it a shot.

[seabeyond]

155. pay for an interlude of peace and relaxation

that is your expectation and i am suggesting the mere action of being in public it may not be a reasonable expectation. you are not paying for peace and relaxation in the restaurants point of view. you are paying for food.

sure they will try to accomodate, as all should that we get a reasonable amount of peace and relaxation, but when dealing with public it is all up in the air

[iverglas]

157. nice try

you are not paying for peace and relaxation in the restaurants point of view. you are paying for food.

But utterly false.

The difference between the composition and taste of the pasta at Ponderosa and the pasta at Primavera isn't worth the price difference, and Primavera is well aware of that. It charges for the atmosphere, and you are well aware of that.


(edited to make it actually coherent)

[gollygee]

160. I'm still almost agreeing with you

I don't take my daughter to very nice restaurants.

The problem is that we got a complaint at *Applebee's* about my daughter. She wasn't being louder than any other guest there, but she has a child's voice, and someone complained that he didn't go out to eat to hang out with other people's kids.

I think if people were less negative at family restaurants our nerves wouldn't be so raw about this issue and we'd probably all basically agree.

[iverglas]

162. I guess I don't see us disagreeing

I've never been to an Applebee's, but it doesn't sound at all like the kind of place I'd go if I were wanting not to hear children.

My experience has been less in restaurants per se (although there have been some) than in other "public" places where I do believe that I have a reasonable expectation of peace and quiet. Restaurants are a sort of stand-in.

If you read one of my other posts, you see that these include the first-class compartment of a train and the swimming pool of an expensive hotel in the very early morning (during what was, as I recall, "adult" hour, which unfortunately is what some parents interpret as "mommy (or mr. mommy) and me" parent-and-infant hour).

In Applebee's, I would expect children to be engaging in age-appropriate behaviour, but also in place-appropriate behaviour: chattering about childish things in a childish way -- which means more loudly than necessary for their tablemates to hear them -- yes; running in the aisles or throwing food or screeching, no.

When *I* go out for a meal, I usually really do want peace and quiet; that's the big reason I have gone out. Today, for instance, I had the last of some rather stressful medical tests that I don't know the outcome of. I may decide that it's a good night for us two to have a quiet dinner out, so as not to have to think about food prep and clean-up, not listen to the TV news, and just have a bit of comfort and a fancy drink.

I won't go to Applebee's for this. I also won't be paying $200 for the meal. I'll be going somewhere moderate where it is reasonable to expect that the other customers will be looking for the same thing I am: good food, good service, and tranquility.

And if there is a kid at the next table telling his/her parents all about what Spongebob got up to today, or complaining that s/he has lost a fork, or anything else I just don't want to hear about, I won't be happy. And I can't for the life of me figure out why the kid's parents would think that causing me to be unhappy is a decent thing to do.

[gollygee]

163. We went on an overseas trip

It was awful but my husband is from another country and we sometimes visit his family. He wanted to go business class. I reminded him that we have a 2-year-old and other people aren't buying business class tickets to sit with 2-year-olds. They're called "business class" after all. We flew coach and while she behaved much better than I expected, she was a two-year old and had a few moments.

So I guess we do agree.

Edited to add - we did have someone on the plane ask why we would have a two-year-old on an overseas flight and tell us that children shouldn't be allowed to fly.

[iverglas]

164. that I have infinite sympathy for

I am a person with deformed ears. ;) On the outside, just a little double earlobe; on the inside, labyrinths.

I am horribly prone to ear infections. (For anybody with kids who are: peroxide. Keep 'em spanking clean. It has worked for me, unfortunately long after the childhood miseries.)

I sometimes suffer badly from the changes of elevation on planes. I'm a grown-up, and I can yawn at will (but even that doesn't completely work). Kids can't, and infants have it hardest, and drinking from a bottle (swallowing) doesn't work well at all.

I know that sometimes kids have to fly. I know that flight staff these days can advise parents on how to make the kids as comfortable as possible when it comes to ear pain. I know it won't always work.

Planes are horrible places for anybody, and kids on planes almost always make them worse, one way or another. If I cared enough, I'd pay the extra for business class -- and yup, I definitely would not want kids there. I don't, so I put up with the whole lousy steerage experience. The kids are behaving age-appropriately, and place-appropriately: I can't have an expectation that kids won't be behaving age-appropriately in that particular place.

Mind you, if the kid behind me starts kicking my seat, *that* won't be considered part of the package!

[gollygee]

142. Wow you had me on your side for a minute

I wouldn't let a child get her own salad from the salad bar. I don't let my daughter look at a buffet unless I'm holding her so her face is above the sneeze guard.

BUT she has right to talk no matter how sensitive you are to her voice. I don't let her yell or scream in a restaurant, but she doesn't have to stay silent. She's allowed to talk just as much as you are.

[iverglas]

149. what's wrong with you?

BUT she has right to talk no matter how sensitive you are to her voice.

Fine. So do I.

Please advise me of the address where your child attends daycare, so that I may pay a visit. I shall bring a cell phone with me, and engage in loud and animated conversation in the room where she is napping.

'Zat okay with you now?

I have a right to talk on my cellphone. (I don't have one, and I don't want one, but I have a right.)

So I obviously have a right to talk on my cellphone in the room where you have paid for your child to sleep.

Just like your child has a right to engage in loud, shrill childish chattering in the room where I have paid to have a quiet, peaceful meal and conversation with my friends.

Glad we sorted that out.

[gollygee]

150. First, my daughter doesn't go to daycare

But no - you have the right to have a conversation with the people you are dining with at a restaurant, and my daughter has a right to have a conversation with my husband and myself while we dine together at a restaurant. If you don't like her voice, that's your problem.

[iverglas]

151. and buh bye

[toddaa]

28. Ban children from salad bars

Why stop there? Perhaps what we really need is a law banning children from public. If they can ban smoking in public for health reasons, then I see no reason why they can't ban children in public. An even better idea is to require all children to be housed in segregated communities away from fragile adults who cannot tolerate anything that upsets their delicate sensibilities.

[tishaLA]

29. awwwwwwwwww

:nopity:

My heart's bleeding for those poor put upon people who reproduce! I know the world has conspired against them in so many ways.

[Amaya]

31. did you have a bad salad bar experience?

[tishaLA]

34. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean

by "a salad bar experience" and it's largely a synecdoche for me anyhow.

But I'll anticipate, probably badly. I don't typically eat at salad bars, no. When people say they let their child "look" at the salad bar--not make a salad, mind you, but "look" at it--it means that they stick their faces between the base and the sneeze guard and breathe on the food. Who hasn't seen this time and again?

I realize some adults do this, too, but at least they do it while they are making their salads. Both behaviors are inexcusable, but I'd be hard pressed to find someone who would say the adults who did it had a "right" to stick their faces into the salad bar and try to demonize people who objected to their bad behavior.

That probably won't answer your question, but I tried.

[toddaa]

35. awwwwwwwwww

back at you. I have absolutely no pity for you, either. Evolution routes around mistakes.

[tishaLA]

41. No pity asked for

I have chosen to remain childless so far. Perhaps some day I will have children. And when I do, I won't pretend their bad behavior is about their, or my, "rights."

[toddaa]

46. I'm still missing something

How is it that a child at a salad bar constitutes bad behavior. When I was a child, I ate at lot's of salad bars. In fact, one of my favorite childhood memories was going up to the big fire engine salad bar at the local spaghetti joint with my grandma on Saturday afternoons and heaping a pile of garbanzo beans on my plate. Explain to me again why this is bad behavior.

[tishaLA]

51. I don't think it is, necessarily

But if you look at the OP, you'll see that the child left his mother and went to "look" at the salad bar, not to get a salad, and that the poster realized that the child was too close to the food, not getting anything, etc. Typically, anyhow, when one is seven, it is rather difficult to navigate salad bars in grocery stores and it really requires an adult's assistance (helping to work with the tongs, reaching for things little arms cannot reach, etc.).

Again, as I said in another post, the issue is not the salad bar per se, which I called a synecdoche and I stand by that word. I also said that some adults do terrible things when handling food others might handle; I don't excuse them, either. For example, if I saw someone in a bakery wiped his or her nose before she waited on me, I would politely ask him or her to wash his or her hands first. It's purely about safety and not about the appropriateness of someone wiping his or her nose. By the same token, I reject this language about children (or adults) having the "right" to put their faces in food or for parents to pretend the behavior is OK. I know it will sound old-fashioned even though I'm not yet 30 and perhaps will sound haughty, but I just think what I am talking about is good manners. They are in short supply these days and I think we are poorer for it.

[seabeyond]

53. he wasnt doing anything wrong, he didnt have snot on his face

he didnt have goey hands, his face wasnt so close. the funny in it is how i snapped inappropriately at my child to get away, because i was thinking of the thread. and then not a second later i was ushering kids into tight space to give adult 3x's the room to make sure we werent a bother to him, again because the thread popped into my head.

but, with what i said, you made the child as bad in the picture as you absolutely could to make your story as strong as possible. and this is what i am suggesting, that maybe it is more about winning a battle than reality.

i came to the conclusion after thinking late into last night and all day, that it doesnt matter how well mannered my kids are, or how perfect they try to be, we seem to have set up a society that it will never be good enough. i dont think i will ever be able to satisfy many on this board with my parenting, nor will my children ever be ok to them. i am not seeing the decline of our youth and i am around a lot of them all the time. there are issues, but this is a tough and challenging time for everyone, including kids.

that is what the original post was about. and a point comes when the adult has to say enough. too many people are pulling children in too many direction, and they can never be good enough. we have such demands on them today, but i dont know why people without children dont want to consider this. and i have seen this consistantly on the board

but then i see this as a bigger issue than just with children. i see it thru out society, with all groups. we are doing this to each other in so many ways.

i am suggesting maybe we have become an intolerant society. and maybe that is something we need to reflect on

[toddaa]

60. There's something else going on here

When these threads first started, I was in complete empathy with those who didn't want their night out at a fancy restaurant ruined by an unruly child. I'm completely on board with that. But they've slowly degenerated into something more disturbing. It seems that young children must behave like adults or there's something wrong with the parents. That sentiment is then followed up with stories of childhood beatings.

[tishaLA]

65. I don't think so, really

I don't think there is necessarily something wrong with the parents and I certainly was not beaten as a child; perhaps some have written about that but most have not. I have, however, said that this is really a question of manners, not "rights" and that adults can be as guilty as children of transgressing rules of proper public behavior.

I think the only "something else" going on here is that some are looking to the discourse of our foundational documents to justify poor behavior.

[toddaa]

67. I'm not referring to you

Sorry if that was implied, but I've seen it pop up in other messages on these threads.

I will agree that manners in general have all but disappeared. Let's leave it at that. Shake?

[seabeyond]

72. not to be arguementative

but i dont agree. i see more manners from kids than i do adults. i am not seeing lack of manners, and i dont want to give that to the kids, i dont think they have to own it. i dont know maybe i am just around a lot of nice kids

[seabeyond]

76. shoot i see a lot of manners from a lot of adults too

this is not an ugly world. i run into nice kind good people all over. further, i dont run into bad people. i run into a lot of repugs and they are nice and good people, though i totally disagree with them and am pissed, lol lol lol

but i see lots of manners all around and have few to none mean to me, or out of control, or brats.........

i am concluding here, done with this subject and i have decided it is a good world

[Obamarama]

Actually, lets just ban salad bars....

The lettuce is usually tasteless, nutrition-deficient iceberg, and the vegetables always seem old, dried out and atrophied. Yuck.

[ultraist]

80. Better not have kids, they might sneeze on you

[seabeyond]

82. projectile spit up into the mouth at 4 a.m. with newborn

yup, shit happens

that one i will nevah forget. really surprised me, didnt see it coming. but then 4 a.m. feeding pretty dark

[AngryOldDem]

133. If that;'s all they do to you...

you're getting off light.

[seabeyond]

18. all the potential consequences in life. havent we learned

anything in the last four years. we cannot protect self from all things and we cannot limit and handicap our children in such a way that they can no longer be a child. from beginning of time there have been old people and young people. and they have been able to co exist without all these outrageous fears being realized. i will not retard my children because of your fears. or because of another prejudice or anothers dislike of my child.

this is a huge tough

kids get to be a participant in this world.

[maxsolomon]

11. people only complain about poorly behaved children

no one likes to be around a tantrum.

so the REAL issue is bad parenting. again.

and please, cut it with the adam walsh crap. the odds are infitessimal. breeding irrational fear is the local media & dick cheney's job, not yours.

[seabeyond]

21. people were not only complaining about poorly behaved children firstly

secondly. who are you to decide the behavior is because of poor parent. a baby crying isnt poor parenting, part of life. a three year old experiences a disappointment and reacts. that is the three year olds place in time. huge drama. has nothing to do with poor parenting. you see an older child loud and bouncing up and down. could be simple excitement that is pouring out of his body with no control. that is what happens with children

never is a child going to be perfect. could just be tired. could be feeling pressure of world and reacts. could be experiencing a bully. has nothing to do with parenting.

yet the parent will be pointed at and said they are being bad parents, and that may not be the cause at all. and the stranger that knows nothing doesnt have a clue, just judged without information. the child flips, the parent sees an issue, now time to deal with it. that is the best that can happen

nah, who is to decide the good bad behavior

we are intolerant of fellow man. we are intolerant of all in this society. and i am saying be intolerant. i am not listening

[readmoreoften]

32. Most of us were just saying that we don't want to have

disruptive children in nice restaurants. Your child has a right to salad. But he doesn't have a right to throw it at me or bounce a superball on my table or slam into me. And if he's at a nice restaurant that he should be as quiet and polite as any adult.

And if you bring a baby into a nice restaurant, restaurant that I'm paying good money for to have a pleasant meal, and that baby cries I will have the management remove you. Period.

Poor poor discriminated against families!

Give me a fucking break.

[livinginphotographs]

42. Oh, don't expect responsibility to get in the way

Of sanctimonious flame-baiting.

But don't worry: we childless people are always wrong, so there's no point in arguing about it.

After all: I'm a MOM. I'm a busy MOM. Therefore, I can act like an irresponsible ass, and it's everyone else's problem.

[Amaya]

43. *cough*

speaking of flame-baiting ....... please...... :eyes:

[livinginphotographs]

44. No, speaking of calling bullshit when you see it.

You should get that cough checked out. Chasing me all over this thread probably doesn't help.

[Amaya]

45. Speaking of BS ... don't flatter yourself

really, don't.

[livinginphotographs]

49. I have a few yawns to pass out.

Here's one for you. (since you're into snooty one-liners, and not an actual discussion)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

54. I have a question

If you childless people want to have a nice silent dinner and not listen to any kids why then are you not going places that don't allow kids? There are plenty of them out there.

What this reminds me of are the non smokers that go into a restaurant and sit in the smoking section then bitch about the people smoking. You seem to want the rest of the world to conform to what YOU want. It's really quite simple, if you don't want to watch sex on cable, don't watch Cinemax after 10PM. If you don;t want to listen to right wing bullshit on the radio I would suggest you change the station when Rush comes on. If you don't want to risk your zen like dinner being disturbed by kids, go eat somewhere that kids aren't allowed.

It's really quite hypocritical and selfish to take the attitude that I am seeing here about how YOU are entitled to not be bothered by kids at dinner when you are paying as if you were the only one in the place having to pay and therefore the only one entitled to what you want.

I have experienced my fair share of fit throwing disruptive kids in public places. It irritates me when it seems the parent is not in control of the child. However, I do not feel I have the right to judge a stranger without knowing anything other than the minutes I am witnessing. And I certainly am not arrogant enough to believe that if someones kid irritates me while I am eating my $75.00 steak washed down with a $200.00 bottle of wine that I am so all being that I can declare how I will have that child and his/her parent removed.

[livinginphotographs]

58. I completely agree with you.

I am a smoker who does not sit in the non-smoking section. I also ask anyone who is with me (smoking or not) if it will bother them before I light up a cigarette.

I don't go to Chuckee Cheese and complain about kids. I go to an adult-oriented restaurant (usually one with a bar and/or a smoking section) and expect not to be bothered by screaming or misbehaving children. I have a problem with those who sit there the entire meal and let their kid scream and scream and scream and do nothing about it. It's a matter of consideration for those around you, which I've noticed that society seems to be greatly lacking in.

I have no problem with children per se, especially if they are well-behaved; I just want to make sure that they're not screaming the entire time I'm eating. That's not being selfish; that's expecting others to show consideration. Just like I don't tell dirty jokes at top volume, I don't want a baby screaming in my ear while I am eating. Why should I have to give up eating out because a parent can't control their child, or exercise enough judgment to realize that not everyone wants to listen to their little angel misbehave?

[seabeyond]

62. why have i not seen all these screaming out of control kids

i am 43, i have been going to restaurants all my life and often and i am not seeing screaming out of control kids everywhere. so i ask, why does it seem the only ones attracting these screaming out of control kids are people that dont have kids and dont want to be around kids. this is quite a phenomenon

i was without kids until 32. not like i have had them around me all the time. even single, i wasnt around screaming out of control kids

[GodHelpUsAll2]

66. I have some terrible news

If you are looking for this country to become responsible, well.... you probably won't live long enough to see it.

This thread is so filled with such arrogant, hateful and downright mean spirited posts that it is making my head spin. There are bad parents in this country. On that I am quite certain we can all agree. However, there are a lot of very good parents also. Children are just that. They are children. And for people who choose to not have children to get up on a soap box and so arrogantly spout how it is their right to have a noisy child at a public restaurant removed irritates me just the same as the child running amok in the grocery store while the parent ignores them.

As I stated before, I have had my fair share of kids that irritated me in public. A few of those occasions it just so happened it was my own child that was the root of that irritation. I have had my child scream at top volume in the middle of a restaurant before. I removed my child from the building immediately and dealt with him. Does it make me a bad parent because my 3 year old decided to suddenly become a little shit? No it does not. Am I under any delusion that if I and my SO go out, just the two of us, to some upscale place and some one's child decides to become a little shit that I have any right what so ever to demand that child be removed because I am somehow more entitled to what I want more than anyone else there? No I am not. I am also very aware that unless I go someplace that dose not allow children I am taking the risk that my nice quiet dinner may be disrupted by some one's child.

Bottom line is this, there are many things in this life that irritate me. If it is something I just can not tolerate, I avoid it like the plague. But for me to expect that the rest of the population should be forced to conform to my wishes is simply unreasonable and quite delusional. Instead of being arrogant and unreasonable in our demands to make our own wishes a reality would it not be much easier and make for a more pleasant co-existence with our fellow humans to simply make choices that are fluid with our own personal wants and needs than to demand the rest of the population adhere to our own personal whims?

[seabeyond]

71. maybe this is the jest of where i am going

i keep sitting with this thinking how bothered so many people are with so many many things today. how it is just becoming so very hard to walk in life without offending or pissing someone off. i keep coming to we just are not tolerant of each other. what has happened to us. and it seems to have happened in a very small amount of time. we see it so clearly from the republicans and what they do to dems and liberals ect.......how totally non tolerant. but we dont seem to see it in ourselves

it feels to me that we have become so tough on kids that man i talk to my kids about our day, in the 60's and 70's. so many things today were not expected of us, we did not have to deal with so much they are dealing with today. and then i see kids all over working so hard to deal with a religion that has gone amuk, war, divorce parents, an entertainment industry that is totally not healthy, influx of info off internet,...............and i have empathy for kids. yet i am seeing from society, cops, schools demanding more and more and more.

i just think there is a better way we can do this. these children are going to grow up..........we are dependent on them

[apple_ridge]

116. Who says they're all childless? Maybe you simply can't

understand proper parenting. Maybe, unlike you, they are simply people who are thoughtful of others.

Your children obviously rule the household and you merely follow along much to the chagrin of those around you. Go eat somewhere where children aren't allowed? Name one restaurant in the US that has that rule!

And you know, you DO have the right to judge a stranger with a poorly behaved child.

[seabeyond]

120. what if that 6 year old child just lost a mother to cancer

was starting first grade and in another environment all day for first time in life, didnt have proteins in body and body demanding food, a older brother picking on him and a tired father. and the kid explodes

you dont know the story why the kid explodes yet you feel you can judge all the situation in a minute explosion. and that you have that right

my position is there is too much of people feeling they can judge and do an adequate job in that judging. through maturity i have learned, that i cannot adequately judge another with so little information. inevitably i will be wrong somewhere. so i chose not to

[iverglas]

156. what if *I* have?

What if, after my father's relatively brief but painful time dying of cancer two years ago, I took my mother out for a quiet meal the night before the cremation? Maybe the first time she'd had in weeks to do something for herself, to have a nice time, to relax, to be waited on, to let her jangled nerves smoothe out.

What if your distressed six-year-old pitched his fit in the middle of the restaurant in the middle of our evening out?

Why would anyone in his/her right mind, with a grain of common sense, take said six-year-old to the kind of place where I had taken my mother?

My mother wasn't likely going to pitch that kind of fit. Seventy-two-year-old women aren't prone to doing that. But six-year-olds are. I would very much doubt that any parent would be unable to grasp the reasonable foreseeability of a six-year-old in those circumstances doing precisely that.

So why would that parent take that child to that place at that time?

Because s/he felt like it? And didn't give a damn about anybody else -- including my mother?

Just curious, you know.

my position is there is too much of people feeling they can judge and do an adequate job in that judging.

The only judgments I'd make would be one of these:

- the parent was too dim to have figured out what to expect of his/her child in the circumstances in question;

- the parent was too disrespectful of other people to care how his/her child's reasonably foreseeable behaviour would affect them.

And as that Margaret Atwood quotation I've seen in someone's sig line says:

Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results.

It wouldn't make a shred of difference to me and my mother why the parent had put the child in that situation. The simple fact is that there is not likely to be any reason that is good enough to justify the results.

[lukasahero]

117. Well - that's what started the entire discussion - should such places be

allowed to exist? Some of us said yes they should - we've been called selfish snobs ever since.

[seabeyond]

121. i havent called you a selfish snob because

you would like a restaurant without kids. never have i felt this through out all the discussion. i so embrace a restaqurant without kids. i can respect and follow a rule not to bring a child to a restaurant that doesnt allow children. we have two in our country club and i dont have a single problem with it, understand and am so ok with it. this has not been my issue from the very beginning of conversation, truly really and firmly i say this

[lukasahero]

123. Agreed - I know you haven't - GodHelpUsAll2 has and I quote:

"It's really quite hypocritical and selfish". Hence my response to his/her question asking why don't we go to places that don't allow kids? The whole controversy began when some of us said we would like that opportunity and some responses suggested that we were snobs for such an attitude (which is the same wording now being used by the poster who wants to know why we don't go to these places and apparently be the snobs we are).

This conversation has become so circular it's making my head hurt!

(PS seabeyond - I'm working on a response to one of your posts below but it'll take a while since there's so many good issues/points to address.)

[seabeyond]

124. i hear ya n/t

[ultraist]

90. What constitutes a "nice restaurant" in our opinion ?

A few hundred bucks for a meal? How often do you go to those types of restaurants? And how often, is there a baby next to you crying at such places?

Is this REALLY a problem? :rolleyes:

[bloom]

136. that's what I'd like to know

I can't really picture screaming kids at high-end restaurants. Of course some people seem to object to kids at places like "Olive Garden" :eyes:.

The suggestion (on another thread) that kids only go to Chuck E Cheese and MacDonalds would result in kids who thought that all restaurants are playgrounds and they wouldn't learn the concept of restaurants where a person has to exhibit some patience and wait for the order to be taken, the food to be prepared, etc.

[Nobody]

52. Good parenting takes into account a child's limits

"never is a child going to be perfect. could just be tired. could be feeling pressure of world and reacts. could be experiencing a bully. has nothing to do with parenting."

Parents who take children into restaurants, or museums, or some other place that involves a lot of sitting still, being quiet, not touching anything are doing a good job when they recognize when those children have had enough. There is a point and many parents don't recognize the signs. And tantrums and unruliness ensues.

The child is tired. Why is that kid still out in public? Tired children would usually rather go home. Toddlers especially have limits and no matter how much patience you're trying to teach them, there's only so much they can be expected to do. When they've reached that limit, respect it and take the kid home.

Pressure of the world? Reacting to the pressure of the world? Overstimulated perhaps? Time to take the kid home. You've reached that limit.

Oh but the adults don't want to leave yet. They haven't seen the entire museum exhibit so if junior is tired and overstimulated and stressed beyond his/her four year old endurance, tough on junior. And tough on the rest of the public trying to enjoy a museum experience.

It doesn't teach children a thing to exceed that limit. Once it's passed that limit, the outing isn't fun anymore. For anyone. And if junior thinks you're not paying attention to his/her attempts to get you to take him/her home, the screaming starts.

Yes, I do know what it's like being a kid. I was one hell of a hyperactive kid. I remember horrific experiences at restaurants when the meal was over and I just wanted to leave and run around and do kid things. Not sit still for yet another round of endless coffee refills and conversations that went over my head. If I asked when we were going to be leaving, it added another refill of coffee to be sipped S L O W L Y. Rather than have tantrums (since I found out early they didn't work either) I made tons of restroom trips and played with soapy water and ate up a few minutes. Of course being eight, I was pretty messy and left a ton of puddles all over the floor. Maybe my parents thought that an eight year old should be able to sit still for a dinner plus an hour or two. Maybe most eight year olds could, but I wasn't one of those eight year olds.

My parents were good parents for the most part. Even though one of my siblings was an athlete and I grew up at sporting events, they mercifully did not expect me at age 5 to sit still on bleachers for an entire day. I ran around unsupervised instead, and had a great time.

The upshot is: I have fond memories of the sporting events and not so fond memories of eating out.

Know your children. Know when to take them home.

[seabeyond]

56. it added another refill of coffee to be sipped S L O W L Y

that is funny,. i remember it was the same thing for us too. wow, just too funny. but your parents had you there and you say they were good parents. people werent calling you brat, because you are past, and we seem to not have brats in the past, only now. and why did you know a tantrum wouldnt work, cause you would get your butt smacked right in the restaurant? (we would have). cause listen to anyone on this boards feel about a smack on the butt. take the kids away from parent. it has even been suggested on this board raising a voice is abuse.

so your parents had different parenting tool than we have today

i personally was very empathitic to my kids especially young. we like staying at home and only go out for so long before we are ready to go home again. not a tough one for us. my oldest from infant was easily overstimulated, so always aware of that. but...........i can see in me being sensitive in that has created challenges for boys, where as the parent that did have kids out and about a lot dont have the same challenges today

what i am saying, we are all uniquely made. for the most part, we are all going to end up ok as adults. how i parent isnt going to be the same as another, it will be my way, and respectfully i know another has to do it their way

it feels like we feel the need to demand it done one way, and that is the only way, and we dont cut much slack for each other

[ultraist]

94. Sorry, but children are not perfect and to expect them to be is cruel

Even the best behaved children that have parents with excellent parenting skills are going to make mistakes. And what some consider inappropriate, happens to be age appropriate. Having too high expectations of children when they are not capable is just what leads to child abuse. It is unrealistic to expect a two year old to be perfectly civil all of the time. Does that mean the child should be sheltered at home all of the time?

The intolerance and lack of understanding of basic child development shown by some here blows my mind.

I suppose you all were perfect little children all of the time.

[ultraist]

89. NOT TRUE! The Family Focus guy says babies should be spanked

And children should be beaten. The goal is to break their spirit and train them to be obedient.

You must not be up on the latest fundie parenting skills.

[seabeyond]

91. i am i am, after all kids went to a fundie school

the head dude when i first registered my son, giving him my 5 year old he says corporate? punishment. he says we use a paddle because we dont believe it should be personalized by our hand hitting. i told him, if IF i am going to hit my child it is gonna be with the hand so i feel the pain right along with the child. then told him, no one will punish my child but me, be sure you call me before it gets to that point.

of course neither child would ever need it. not at school anyway, lol lol. and at home they may need it i dont believe in it, and here i could go to i dont condemn the parent that does it. just not my thing

[puddycat]

14. the problem is the parents, not the kids

American parents don't discipline their kids anymore. I was in a buffet a few years ago and the children dumped food on the floor, threw food around, and were the biggest, loudest pigs I ever saw. The
parents did nothing. Nothing. When those people left the poor waiter had to clean up what looked liked a garbage dump off the floor: mashed noodles, potatoes, etc. etc. etc. I never saw such a disgusting display.

I see similar displays everywhere: in clothing stores where I saw a kid pull off clothes off hanger after hanger, while the mother yakked, glad the kid had "something to do". Disgusting.

So, when you consider these creeps and what they let their kids do, I don't blame people for wanting to go somewhere where kids aren't allowed. I personally dream of going to a retirement home where I don't have to put up with neighborhood brats who have no regard for personal property, no regard for their elders. Did anyone notice how
kids don't call their elders by their last names anymore? Kids are taught they are on an even level with elders. This is wrong.

Kids nowadays are often brats: they are this way because of their parents, but they are brats just the same. If I am spending my money in a place I don't want to put up with these brats, and I will never ever go back. So, you see, I can understand both sides of the issue.

[mermaid]

25. Hmmmm.....

"Did anyone notice how
kids don't call their elders by their last names anymore? Kids are taught they are on an even level with elders. This is wrong."

Well, I dunno. All the kids in my church call me "Angela." And that is because I damn well told them they could. Not only is my last name somewhat difficult (it is unusual and long) but, I don't particularly case to be addressed as "Miss ___________." "Angela" works just fine with me, it don't bug me at all. And I've told the kids they could darn well address me so, too.

Granted, most of the kids called me "Angela" from the start, because their parents introduced me to their kids that way. The parents should have known better. I'd have told them to call me "Angela" anyway.

Once, one of the kids TRIED to address me by my surname, but she didn't know what my surname was...and I told her to just call me Angela.

[seabeyond]

27. Kids nowadays are often brats

such compassion, such love. i could say, adults now a days are such jerks.

hey, you know how hard it is to get adults to have the expectation of children calling them by last name. i have to about force an adult to understand i am trying to teach my children to do this

nah my children are good enough they can go the direction the adult or i tell them

[puddycat]

30. what's your problem? don't attack me

your sarcastic reply "such compassion..." is bogus. You are the one who obviously doesn't have compassion for other people if you are one of those people who think that misbehaving brats are wonderful and other people should have to put up with their garbage. I don't. I am a human being, too, even though I'm an adult. I've had brats throw stones at my windows and when I call the police they ask me what I was doing to them!!!! I was doing nothing! But of course the little brats must be catered to because they are "children". Nonsense. Children can be as evil as adults. I long for the days when kids were disciplined and were expected to behave.

Now, children in many neighborhoods are little terrorists and there is little that we can do about it.

So, have a little compassion for us people who have to put up with your misbehaving brats

[CrispyQ]

139. Like adults, not all kids are bad, but there certainly are some that are.

I'm sure those of us without children are more likely to view certain activity as bad behavior, but conversely, I think those with children are more inclined to excuse truly bad behavior. It's a fine line & more tolerance & awareness on both sides is the key.

[ultraist]

95. Do you have children?

What makes you an expert on parenting? Do you have any experience or o you know the FIRST thing about child development or appropriate parenting?

[noamnety]

16. You know where I've seen this attitude before?

When I was eating out my with deaf friends. I was shocked to see that hearing people get upset about deaf people being in their restaurants. All that waving around of arms is too distracting if you are trying to have a nice dinner. And god forbid they should actually make a nonverbal noise, like a grunt or something. Apparently that completely and instantly ruins all the food in the restaurant, as well as the entire atmosphere.

In fact I don't recall ever going out to eat with that crowd without getting at least a couple of angry rude stares from other patrons. I learned to get used to it, for the most part, but it's very annoying to have to go into a nice meal knowing that people will be angry at the fact that you have the gall to exist within their eyesight.

[ET Awful]

20. I've got nothing against well-behaved children :)

It's the screaming, undisciplined, and uncontrolled kids in restaurants that bug me.

When the kid leaves his own table and runs around the restaurant and mommy just sits there and says "now that's not nice Johnnie" that I get upset.

Most kids I'm fine with :).

In fact, kids and I get along well for the most part, just not the little terrors that many parents let get away with whatever they like.

[livinginphotographs]

36. Yawn. Sorry the childless threaten you so much.`

And since we're all such horrible people, if you'll excuse me, I have to go kick some puppies and beat some cute wittle babies with a dead baby bunny rabbit. You know, since I'm a horrible person and all. :eyes:

[Amaya]

37. You didn't get what the poster was trying to say

And your comment was inappropriate.

[livinginphotographs]

40. No, I saw the thread she was posting this in response to.

And I really don't care if you think it was inappropriate.

The previous thread was a bunch of, "the childless have their opinions, but they're wrong, because children are beautiful, blah, blah blah blah blah."

And we horrible kid-haters were talking about the badly-behaved children that make a dinner unpleasant for everyone around them, not the children themselves. Obviously, this poster felt threatened that we wouldn't automatically love her little angels, so she posted this half-assed attempt at needling the childless.

I deal with people looking at me like I'm a fucking Satanist everyday because I don't want children, or saying to me in a really condescending matter, "Oh, you'll change your mind." I also deal with people who think that just because they are parents, that their opinion matters so much more than mine.

Sorry if it gets a bit tiring, but this is just like those "I'm a rich white heterosexual male Christian, and I'm tired of being persecuted wah wah wah" threads.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

48. You know, you have a point

I was about to post that seabeyond should get a grip because I'm a mom and I would like to go out once in a while without a screaming brat in my ear.

OTOH, I also like to have nice family dinners, from great-grandpop to baby, and ought to be able to have family celebrations in the nicest joint I can afford.

Or just take a little daughter or granddaughter out for a "ladies luncheon". Or whatever.

So I'm back on the side of kids ought to be able to go anywhere. And parents ought to take responsibility when the kids just aren't in the mood and leave.

[CrispyQ]

143. A friend of mine once said:

"There are two types of adults: those with children & those without."

I would like to add a third: those with children who shouldn't have had them.

It is this third type that those of us without children object to.

[seabeyond]

153. i think both group 1 and 2 would concur with conclusion of

group 3. i think though our children shouldnt suffer, be limited or lumped into, because of group three

[shrike]

126. I hope it's not the gay, non-gay divide

Since some gays are parents. I met such a couple, recently; male, white, with two adopted African-American children. Nice people, and their children were very sweet.

I think sometimes the childless get the impression that some parents believe the world should revolve around their children. Plus, a lot of childless people get that vibe that something is wrong with them if they haven't reproduced. I wish I had a nickel for the number of people who've looked at me funny, or made rude comments, because I don't have kids.

Of course, bashing kids is no way to go, either. Or treating them poorly -- today's kids are going to be tomorrow's adults, running the world and making policy that'll affect us oldsters.

[seabeyond]

127. this is some of the realizations i am coming to

and this is why i like to explore things in life, helps me to understand, and in the understanding can hold hands instead of battle. and i am so feeling htis with you in this time. thank you for your perspective

[tjdee]

47. These threads are hilarious.

:)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

50. And ridiculous... n/t

[Blue Diadem]

64. I agree. Same complaints on both sides have gone on for years.n/t

[WindRavenX]

55. pretty damn sad

You know, I wish people would just take responsibility for their kids- many kids are well behaved enough to go to restaurants, some are not. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread know your kid. If you know your kid is in a cranky mood and could be destructive- do the considerate thing and not bring the kid with you.
I went to many fancy restaurants with my parents when I was young; they were valuable learning experiences to learn how to behave in more upscale environments.
It just seems like a common sense issue....a balance of both sides' rights because neither side has the automatic "right" of their opinion. Patrons of fine restaurants have the right to eat in peace, and parents have the rights to bring well behaved children to eat.
If they misbehave, they can be thrown out. But I find "pre-emptive" screening of children based on the assumption that they will be disruptive to be rather irritating.

[Withywindle]

68. How about simple behavior rules that apply to everyone?

1. No screaming.
2. No running inside the restaurant
3. No throwing food--on the floor, at other people, anywhere.
4. No bothering other patrons ("bothering" is different from simple interaction, it starts after the first polite request to go away is ignored.)
5. Certainly no grabbing of random people's hair (as somebody brought up on one of the other threads).


Age has nothing to do with it. Anyone who can refrain from these behaviors is welcome, and anyone who can't help themselves (or be prevented from doing so by others at their table) gets summarily evicted.

There should be no stigma on restaurant management or staff for enforcing this; everybody thinks it's reasonable for bar staff to throw an unruly patron out, why not restaurants?

This would ensure everybody gets a decent meal, and it's not ageist. I certainly wouldn't want to try to eat around adults pulling this crap either.

[WindRavenX]

70. I agree

Good list :thumbsup:
I've seen adults act like spoiled brats, but their age protects them...

[ultraist]

96. Do you have children or have any clue how difficult parenting is?

If you don't, who are you to judge? It's a 24-7 hour job and since you have no experience and apparently little education on child development and appropriate parenting, I will disregard your comment and consider it worthless.

[WindRavenX]

101. Completely uncalled for

I was defending parents.
You misread me.

[seabeyond]

105. meant the post below for this reply

sorry

[opiate69]

107. Fallacious argument if ever there was one..

"You are neither a murderer nor a homicide detective, so you can't possibly understand the subject enough to comment on it."

[ultraist]

188. Not quite. An ill informed opinion is pretty worthless

Someone who has no experience or education in the matter doesn't have much to back up their opinion, do they? Blind comments lack truth and substance.

An illogical argument would be, "I don't know anything about the subject through education or experience, but I am an expert on the matter or have valid insights." That's how logical reasoning works. Ideas are backed up with FACTS, not blind faith observations.

Perhaps if people had some basic understanding of child development, they wouldn't be so intolerant and refer to children as "crack addicted monkeys" "monsters" "spoiled brats" etc.

Children are not little adults nor should they expected to behave as such.

[Withywindle]

131. Oh, did you mean mine?

If so, nope, I don't have children, don't want 'em.

But I'm certainly qualified to talk about what I've observed, and what I think about what I've observed.

Which is this:
I've seen children act in restaurants and other places like crack-addicted monkeys being electrocuted.

I have also seen them be wonderful, well-mannered, charming, funny, and non-disruptive while still seeming to enjoy themselves, so I know it's very possible.


Allowing for personality and temperament differences of course, I have to assume the MAIN difference is in the parenting.

Do parents who don't bother teaching their kids basic rules of etiquette, patience, and respect for the personal space of others think they're doing their kids a FAVOR? I think not. Wait til that kid moves to New York City for art school and starts grabbing random people's hair in the subway.

[CrispyQ]

167. "It's hard work!" Hmmm, sounds like someone else

who bit off more than he can chew.

Well hell yes, it's hard work! It's one of the hardest & most important jobs on the planet & that's why many of us chose not to take on that responsibility. If you didn't understand this going in then you are naive.

[ultraist]

190. No, I have not "bit off more than I can chew", I'm not complaining, I LOVE

being a parent, but I would not lie and say that parenting is easy If it's done well.

But, how would you know? The job of a mother is often devalued, so your rude remark is nothing shocking.

BTW, I have one biological and one adopted. I also volunteer working with economically disadvantaged children. I love parenting.

What I find offensive, is intolerance, ignorance, and hatred towards our most vulnerable persons in our society.

[seabeyond]

104. yes you were windraven

and i too went to nice restaurants. how kids learn to behave and be comfortable in them as adults.

[BamaGirl]

59. Lol, my girls and your boys would agree

They're good girls, usually well behaved in public, but they're kids, ya know? I don't expect them to be well behaved 100% of the time. Hell, I don't know any adults well behaved that much lol! I don't go anywhere that I can't take my kids, so anyone who doesn't welcome them is just losing money because I know I am not alone in that.

[Maestro]

61. Children are fine

It's very cliché but they are our future and deserve to go anywhere and everywhere under proper supervision. To limit them in any way hinders their progress as people. And to assume that just because children are around, there must be something bad going on or that they are misbehaving is ignorant and highly presumptious. If you don't like kids, stay childless please. There are already far too many who have your attitude but are parents.

[ultraist]

74. I agree and how often do these whiners drop a few hundred bucks on dinner?

So they are whining about a situation that rarely occurs.

Children, elderly, & handicapped may pose some "imposition" but to demonize them and say they should stay out of stores is very REPUKE like.

[seabeyond]

77. yes i think this is what i was feeling

to demonize them and say they should stay out of stores is very REPUKE like.

[CrispyQ]

169. Yes, but it's exactly because they don't treat themselves often

that makes it such a drag when a disruptive child spoils the event.

I'm not talking about an excited child who has to be reminded a few times that he/she is not behaving the way the parent expects. I'm talking about little hellions whose parents are oblivious to the disruption they are creating among other customer & waitstaff. You may not be one of those parents, but they are out there!

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

63. I find that I have more success

and less stress all the way around if I head out with my kids on non-busy restaraunt days, at off-hours...

[SarahB]

69. It's all context.

I have children and I work with children. I truly love children.

HOWEVER, if it's 9:00 at night and I'm at a pricey restaurant, I'm there to have grown-up time. The last thing I need to hear at that moment (of an all too rare break) is someone's two year old screaming. If it's a family restaurant or fast food place, people can shut up and deal with the children that will inevitably be there.

[ultraist]

73. And how often does that happen? Is that really a problem?

I doubt that too many children are in pricey restaurants after 9 pm. Sounds like a rarity.

Do you realize that most parents fall in the median of 45k a year and do not often frequent pricey restaurants? MOST PARENTS cannot afford to drop a few hundred bucks on dinner on a regular basis. Get real.

It sounds to me like a few here are creating a crisis where one does exist. Talk about making mountains out of molehills.

35,000 children a day STARVE TO DEATH, now that's a real problem.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

81. seabeyond is right

This is about more than kids. It's about how society as a whole has become intolerant of anything other then their own wishes.

Intolerance of gay people.
Intolerance of Black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern etc.
Intolerance of people from the south
Intolerance of people from the north
Intolerance of people of religion
Intolerance of people who are not religious
Intolerance of people with kids
Intolerance of people without kids

The list goes on and on and on. And the hypocrisy is running amok.
It's a sad sad day in America. The politicians have successfully pitted this country one against the other. And the bitter battle rages on. I pray daily that the population will realize just what is happening and turn the tide and end the insanity.


edited: Oops! I spelled the posters name incorrectly. My apologies.

[seabeyond]

84. you have me in tears

yes

[GodHelpUsAll2]

87. I do apologize

My intent was not to have anyone in tears. I just wish people could lighten up a little and realize that this is a big place with lots of different views and opinions.

I long for some semblance of unity "brotherly love". Sometimes I get all sappy and really delusional and I reminisce about the old coke commercial. (Now I am dating myself but I'll give it a go)

I'd like to buy the world a home....and furnish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves..

I'd like to teach the world to sing...in perfect harmony.....


Can't we all just get along?


well.....you get the jist.

[seabeyond]

88. the beauty of your post.............good tears

hey you are a guy arent you. equate tears to bad, bah hahahahah. now you have me in stitches.

and then to sing the coke commercial, back to the tears. (good ones)

just a big ole smack on your cheek (wet slobbery kiss)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

92. LOL

And no, I am not a guy. Unless there was some sort of mysterious change in the last 10 minutes or so that I am not yet aware of. Nope, I checked. I'm still a girl. And on that note. This sappy girl is taking her sappy butt to bed. Have a wonderful night and a beautiful tomorrow.

[seabeyond]

93. well a wet slobery kiss just doesnt work

with a women. just doesnt. nite. me too

[JHB]

152. You left out...

Intolerance of people who make lists...



Sorry, just trying to lighten the thread. :pals:

[SarahB]

86. Enough to mention it.

I probably go to a really nice place once every year or two and at least half the time, this has happened. For me (and many others), doing something like this is a rare and special thing. You have no idea who I am or what I do. Ever teach a child to read? Ever help someone else's newborn baby learn to eat? Ever hold back the hair of a little girl vomiting from chemotherapy treatments? I have done all these things.

Like I said, I love children. However, I don't like sanctimonious yuppie parents who do not know appropriate boundaries with their own children.

[ultraist]

98. Once or twice a year or maybe once every two years?

And this is a problem?

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, but I guess I have more tolerance and love for kids than to get my panties in a wad over a yearly dinner incident.

And to answer your question, I taught my own child as a newborn to eat and I have done volunteer work with underprivileged kids for ten years. I spent last Sunday with a newborn and twin two year olds that live in the slums. We took over dinner, some diapers and baby formula and spent the afternoon with them. We've been sponsoring this family for 8 years.

I also adopted an African American five year old, nine years ago. So, yes, I have quite a lot of experience caring for children and have gotten up many a times in the middle of the night to care for them while they were sick. Have you ever rushed a dying child to the ER? I have. If you are not a parent, you really don't have a clue as to what it means to parent.

Both my children are well behaved but they are not perfect nor do I expect them to be.

A little love and tolerance for children from the greater community would be too much to ask I suppose from Democrats.

[SarahB]

99. I have children.

I have 4 of them actually. One had life-threatening injuries at birth. One had a serious illness as an infant. Look, I KNOW what you mean about intolerance here when it comes to children. Some people here are callous and plain stupid. However, I work hard not to see the world in black and whites. The world is more complex than that and I hate to be narrow-minded, so I try to see other perspectives. I can see other perspectives.

That was my only point.

[ultraist]

106. I see

But you have to admit there was a weird intolerance theme happening and I was not going to jump on the bandwagon and go along as if it kids in public is really an issue.

I just don't see how a night or two out per year where MAYBE a baby cries, is an issue. It seems rather blown out of proportion. I highly doubt that many people here spend a few hundred bucks on dinner more than once or twice a year, yet, they are acting as if children in high end restaurants is a real problem.

Yes, I'm quite capable of seeing different perspectives as you wrote: "I work hard not to see the world in black and whites. The world is more complex than that and I hate to be narrow-minded, so I try to see other perspectives. I can see other perspectives. "

I also don't just go along with the crowd and cosign something when it's an ill informed opinion or an excuse to engage in a lynching as we saw here.

Children should be allowed to be out in society and if people lack knowledge on child development and have unrealistic expectations of children, that's THEIR problem.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SarahB]

147. Bingo!

People with training in child development and experience with children are familiar with a term known as "age-appropriate expectations". It is not appropriate to expect small children to behave in certain places, therefore, in my opinion, it is not a good idea for the children to be there. It doesn't do either the child, nor the other people in the particular environment any favors. However, obviously, when it comes to grocery stores, family restaurants, etc. people who don't like children can shut up and deal with it, but parents can also set appropriate limits for their children.

And furthermore, if I am having an all too rare break from the world of children, no, I don't want to deal with screaming children in nice restaurants, R-rated movies, etc. I'm nothing if not an extremely empathic person, but I also know what is and isn't appropriate for young children and what good parenting entails.

There is a middle ground people of logic and if both sides stopped putting up their defenses and taking every little thing as a personal attack :eyes: (or people actually making personal, petty attacks) than perhaps both groups can understand and appreciate some of the points each side is making.

[ultraist]

189. Oh, ok, let's also ban children from public transportation

If you want to live in an adult only community, go buy a house in one. They do exist.

I find it DiSTURBING that people are demonizing children and showing such a lack of tolerance. It's very selfish and reflects WHY we have millions of children in our country that go without proper nutrituion and medical care.

[iverglas]

191. yes please! let's all pick our noses and eat it!

Uh ... that is what you said, right?

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[retnavyliberal]

83. Exactly

If I am having dinner at 5 or 6 pm then I expect a busy restaurant with "family" noise. But if I am dining late, I do it because I do not want those distractions and want a nice peaceful meal with pleasant conversation with friends. I have been in as many restaurants where I have commented to parents at a table near me how well-behaved their children were. I have also experienced the opposite. If your baby/child starts crying or running around the restaurant, then take them out of the dining area. Don't take your child to a 10 pm movie. If I go see Shrek at 4 in the afternoon, then it's on me. All we have to do as adults is act like adults. Responsibility goes both ways. It's called Common sense.

I will say that way before this thread came out my friends and I often said restaurants need 4 sections. Smoking and non, kids and non.

[seabeyond]

75. this thread is really not about the restaurants....i dont care

this thread was more the exploration of the expectation we have of children today, the demands we put on them, the calliousness we feel towards them. i am watching more and more laws created to restrict behavior. i am listening to more and more people being arrested and sued for silliest of thing, that in the past would have been dismissed or a lesson learned, but now as a culture we demand a punishment and in my views pretty extreme punishments.

my then 5 year old saw an accident and said do people go to jail for accidents. i told him no. and then i thought about it and i said, well now a days, yes you go to jail for accidents. he was outraged, but mom it is an accident. doesnt matter anymore i told him, even and accident you could go to jail, so no accidents.........walk litely

i didnt know so many people felt so strongly about children in a negative way. i had no clue. really i didnt. i have been thinking about it about 24 hours now. i have childless adult friends and i have never heard them speak of children like i heard on this board. i was really surprised.

it seems to me in a very small amount of time we as a society have become a non tolerant society of each other. i wonder how long it will take for us to see it in ourselves in order to heal

[ultraist]

78. It's no wonder so many children live in poverty in our country

If so called Democrats have such an attitude about children, what can we expect.

I mean most children are 'little monsters' and 'spoiled brats,' let them starve.

[seabeyond]

79. this is what initially started it, as we stand up to republicans

saying we are not going to go away, and we are not going to be quiet, i know htis is what my son was feeling, that he does have a right to be a part of this world and interact adn speak out. this is something i want to encourage in my son. he is a smart boy, and he followed the whole fundie, republican democrat bush kerry thing. he gets it all. he is courageous and he does speak out. i tell my kids, learn and learn good, you are going to be the ones to fix the mess all us adults are creating for you

do you see why i cannot look at youth the same as others on this board

[ultraist]

100. All I can say, is some of these comments are really uninformed

And...BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Just wait until they have kids 24-7 and we'll see if their kids are perfect all of the time and act like civil adults when they are toddlers! LOL!

Some of these people are in for a real eye opener.

The sad thing is, if they are so intolerant and have such an unrealistic expectations of children, they may resort to poor parenting skills, like hitting their children or other violent means. Let's hope not.

I would also say, that I hope NONE of the people that posted intolerant comments EVER work with handicapped persons, especially children. Patience is a virtue.

[seabeyond]

102. in disillusionment

i would see probably the choice of disconnecting, working and not parenting and having those exact out of control children they are talking. but reality for me and my own experience since i was so old when i had kids, ..............they will realize they were totally off the mark and will buckle down and kick ass as a parent and have a blast doing it like i did. i can remember prior to having kids some of the assumptions i made. and the same with marriage. i was awfully smug. i would argue with people that i was smart well informed and read a lot. i could come to conclusions without experiencing

this was a lesson for me to understand i truly only knew my own experience, i couldnt truly know another person experience

[ultraist]

108. Yes, I had some pretty unrealistic expectations of marriage too! LMAO!

When I was in my twenties. I've been married for 13 years now and expect my husband and I will grow old together!

But, I never was bothered by kids. I've always loved kids and have worked with them since I was a teenager.

In general, our society really doesn't value children's lives the way we should. It's discouraging to see such apathy and intolerance in general,not a worldview I would want my children to learn.

[lukasahero]

115. The problem I have with both sides of the issue is how it is being twisted

Seabeyond, I usually agree with you on many issues but I worry that this thread only continues to misrepresent that all the opposing views were only the extreme views. Most of the posts I have read by folks supporting the idea of having some places to go where screaming, ill-behaved children are not acceptable also agree and support that this is not and should not be most places. Additionally, it seems that if one does expect children to behave in public places (as I was expected to do as a child) then we must have no interest, understanding or concern for children.

For the record, I have been a big sister to various younger girls since I was 18 years old. That's 20+ years of giving my time, attention, money, care and concern to a young woman who may otherwise not have the opportunity to do things I can do with her, who may otherwise not have healthy relationships with adults, who may not otherwise have an adult to talk to about issues that she may not feel comfortable talking about with her parents. I take them hiking, to movies, just hang out in the park or the mall and spend alot of time talking about all sorts of issues that they are facing in their life.

Just because I have a problem with kids who run around restaurants unattended, pick up food from the buffet counter with their hands and put it back (yes, I've seen it and my problem is more with the lack of attention by the parents than with the kids), doesn't mean I'm against all kids all the time. Just because, as a childless-by-choice adult who might occassionally expect parents to understand that their children are not the light of my life, doesn't mean I'm attacking your children or your parenting skills.

Most of the posts I read expressed that there are plenty of restaurants where kids should be allowed to be kids and plenty of kids who are well-behaved in public settings. Yes, there were posts that were stupid and ignorant (the whole taser suggestion stupidity comes to mind) but I think most of them were either a) jokes (albeit bad ones) or b) sarcastic posts made by people mocking those of us who may actually desire a place where we don't have to worry about kids screaming in our ears. The personal attacks made by some who then called us elitist, selfish, ignorant republicans were just as stupid.

I respect the way you are raising your children (as I have read many of your posts and figure I have a pretty good handle on what you think about the subject and what you're trying to do). I think you have wonderfully informed, intelligent and insightful young people in your home who are going to grow up and do wonderful things in this world. Please don't teach them that just because I don't have kids of my own and don't feel like oohing and aahing over every kid I meet (hey, maybe I'm having a bad day - it happens) means I hate them or don't respect and value them. Please understand that I also live with the bigotry that expects all women to love children and I must not be as feminine or womanly because I don't.

You wanna know why I don't have kids? Because I believe the job of parenting and raising healthy, well cared for, well adjusted, well informed children is the most important job in the world and I don't believe I could do it as well as it should be done. To be honest, I figure there are plenty of people out there who shouldn't have them either for that very reason - they don't take the job seriously enough. You are not one of those people.

Since you spoke to your children about the extreme negative posts, I hope you will give equal time to this (hopefully) more moderate and positive opinion.

[seabeyond]

119. i love your post, just simply love your post

upfront the one thing i will address is equally i would like non parents to understand, i have never felt and dont feel that it is your job to oh and ah over my kid. so i too would like that taken off the table. it is equally offensive and an unnessacery falsehood as some of the points you bring up about perceptions of the non parent. my children are my own, and a lot of the reason i love them is they come from me, lol lol lol. my children being so odd i know other people do not, will not see my children as i do and i have no expectation of it. it seems that the non parent feels parents want them to admire our children. i dont know why you feel that, i dont think i have ever projected that expectation, but i dont want you to. not your job and i give boys more than enough. i simply want a world kids can own and feel a responsibility for and grow up in

"to misrepresent that all the opposing views were only the extreme views. "

this is where i get tripped up and often conclude and have to remind myself, especially on this board. i dont know the percentage that are just youth, and not yet in maturity that are making the most outrageous comments and the few cranky (fearful) old. which we have in society, and i totally embrace both groups. they also speak the loudest. so i have to remind myself this is the extreme not the majority. (i told you i was surprised)

but i do think it has something to do with our democratic party, and what we want for it and why there are so many family middle of the road that goes towards republican vs democrat and why they are owning family values though we see the hypocrisy in that. and i dont think, over the year i have been on this board, we have really addressed this. we say, we support the poor, we want no war ect......why would a parent vote repug, we are the family value. i think this is part of it, and people dont believe me. wink. (knowing i can be wrong in all places)

i do think we have set up our society to be harsher with our children, on the one hand, letting them raise self and not giving them a foundation of strength and getting away with so much not teaching discipline, on the other hand insisting they behave and feel like adult at 5. an odd mix. and i see that as our responsibility to recognize and heal as adults, not the childrens

and lastly

i really respect all to chose the path the want to walk. all of us being perfectly unique. i do not have the expectation of another walking life my way. i know my friend feared she wasnt capable of giving a child what it would need. and she didnt have a child. she aborted twice in life. and has beaten herself up for that. feels she is not fit to be a parent. that i think is sad, because pressure she put on herself is what created this. i know others that dont want children. i wrestled with it too, never wanting to marry and having only one child, thinking that is the life i could handle, not what i got. and this one is good too. as a woman, i have always seen the women that could not have babies and feel bad about themselves (i am never for beating self up or feeling shame) as the one that nurtured children who had parents but needed more from exactly that unique woman. seems to be more your role. there are a zillion reasons, and they are all good. all contribute to the whole

i think it is wrong for woman to feel the pressure of not having child. i dont like that any woman would feel bad about themselves because they make this choice. feeling bad about self contributes nothing, and makes the person feel less. never should a person feel less in my book. we are all grand. i get to be grand and say it out loud, because i equally see all of us right there.

i have taught and allowed boys to love themselves and that allows them to love all. they/we simply will not judge a group, nor an individual because they recognize value and hold on to their own power and they know the ability to do that is allowing others the same. they can have a person that doesnt want to be around kids, and still love them and respectfully give the adult their space in understanding. and they know not all non parents dont feel that way. we have friends that love them so that dont have kids

anyway, thank you for you post. was excellent

[lukasahero]

129. So much to rationally discuss, where do we begin? ;-)

And let me say up front that I have read some of your other posts where you refer to how much you think about how others may be judging you/your parenting skills/your kids. That's an important point I will take away from this discussion. My husband and I can be very judgemental (about more than just kids btw) but I have always tried to remember that I don't have all the facts about someone's life and I'm working on him as we go along... :-)

"it seems that the non parent feels parents want them to admire our children. i dont know why you feel that,"

That's a very good point and it's perhaps something else to take away from the conversation - in both directions. Perhaps, as non-parents, we are projecting a desire from the parents that doesn't always exist. I think it largely comes from friends and family who are always holding their babies out to me to hold assuming that, especially as a woman, I should love the opportunity. But I also think, as demonstrated in some of these posts, that there are people who simply think we're jerks if we just aren't crazy about kids. Not you but you can see where we might get that idea from others and end up transferring the expectation, rightly or wrongly, to you. That "trait of transference" seems to be fairly common to both sides. ;)

Lately I have become almost physically overwhelmed with the attacks on opposing views both here on DU and in the Democratic Party and especially in the country as a whole. I sit here and watch, and yes admittedly partake in at times, some of the viciousness laid out at the feet of those with opposing/differing opinions and wonder how we're ever going to heal the wounds our collective national consciousness has suffered.

I am truly frightened, as a woman who does not want children, of what the future holds for me, and more importantly, the young women like me who may not want children, but someday may not have a choice. Even more importantly, I worry for the children that are born into that. I do believe all men and women should have the choice to live the life they want to lead (within legal limits) without the judgement of or coercion to assimilate by others with differing opinions. But that doesn't mean I have no opinions and think everything in this life/country is peachy and perfect.

As a result, I too, am often guilty of hearing only the most extreme views on issues of importance to me. While I will never suggest we should all go quietly without standing up for what we believe, I do think we all need to stand back a little, take a breath and bear in mind that most of us are just trying to the best we can.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

130. most of us are just trying to the best we can.

i am with you sister

peace back at ya

gotta go get legal. driver liscence, tag and inspection sticker all expired and have been pulled over twice. talk myself out of tickets. i never get in trouble. have to punish myself or it just wont get done, lol lol

good day to you

[donheld]

109. I'm sure your Children will agree

sometimes they'd like to go to places where there was no cranky, bratty, loud mouth adults around. It's all about the behavior. Not just the kids behavior but also, many times more so, adults behavior.

[noamnety]

110. A compromise position

Dear Seabeyond,

I understand your son has been casting his eyes upon lettuce in public places. Please be aware that by allowing him to breathe near said lettuce, you are infringing upon my rights.

In the future, please ensure that when you go the to grocery store, your son is correctly attached to a breathing device that will supply him with his own oxygen without depleting the oxygen of those around him who have not consented to sharing the air with this child. This breathing device will include a collection chamber to gather the used air from his lungs, which you can empty upon exiting the store.

Please keep in mind when you are shopping that it is not only the salad bar which contains food. Particularly in the produce section, exposed food is within breathing range. It is of utmost importance that your child does not look at the fruits or vegetables.

Also, many foods are contained within secure wrappings in the other aisles of the store. I, for one, do not want your son breathing near my box of oreos. I do not wish to have to wash my hands between opening the box and grabbing a cookie. By taking your son to the store without a breathing containment device, you are infringing on my right to eat cookies in a sterile environment.

As a responsible parent, I urge you not only to acquire - and use - the recommended breathing containment device, but also to petition your store to purchase sneeze guards for all locations in the store - not just the salad bar, but also the produce section, and as discussed above, each aisle of packaged goods.

Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this matter.

[seabeyond]

113. my oldest is an obsessive hand washer, so we know the germ

issue. he washes so often his hands crack and bleed. it has brought the rest of the family to embrace the not so sterile and dont go beserk in this department. can grab hold of you and never will anything be enough. we will always be able to see other ways we might prevent germ. we embrace let the germ into body so it learns and gets good at fighting. dont be afraid and try to keep body sterile or it becomes weak and unable to fight when needed. we do things in this house to push his buttons to get him to relax, though also respecting where he is.

we try to show him in our practice the freedom of not obsessing and we are still healthy

that is an interesting point. hadnt even see that with produce and other points you are just funny. and yes

i had a chuckle

[seabeyond]

111. is this a regional thing

off what one of the posters said, being in the south the up side is she doesnt get faces when she has child. again i say, i hadnt heard this attitude of discontent with children and i am in texas. are the people that really feel the children should be seperated from them the liberal east/west coast person. and are those in the south more embracing of children
and embracing and accepting of children and children behavior.

i find this interesting.

[noamnety]

114. I don't think it's regional

I was raised in New York, where my parents specifically took us as kids to nice restaurants just for the experience. I thought kids in New York state weren't allowed to grow up without the adventure of some crazy aunt kidnapping them for a day to go to the Russian Tea Room and a Museum. I mean, come on, it's in one of the Eloise books!

[Misunderestimator]

112. Well-behaved kids aren't a problem... but misbehaving kids or ADULTS

should be banned. Sounds like you corral your kids appropriately :P

[Bridget Burke]

118. Wait--your 9 year old "had a cart"?

The mini-carts pushed by children really are a hazard to navigation. And the kids really need to be kept nearby in the store--for their safety as well as consideration of others.

The original thread asked whether certain restaurants had the right to serve adults only. Of course they have that right. I tend to patronize small and/or ethnic places, frequented by families. They are good places for kids to learn public skills--even there, screaming & running around should be limited. Usually they are--by the parents.

However, even parents might want the occasional night out. As important as parenthood may be, they shouldn't forget their lives as adults, as part of a couple. Nobody can define their entire existence as "Mommy" forever.

[seabeyond]

122. we never did the mini carts for the reason you state

and just to much of a hassle. but even more dangerous, my 9 year old is wanting to be helpful and responsible and wanting to learn to push the big cart. oh the horror as he is pushing and i am saying, now gonna do it gotta be responsible, thinking of the adults that would be raising eyebrows, yup

and the independent going off by self thing, a parent (or i) have to gage and take the risk. walmart never, too big, same with target. united at 5 or christmas and holidays when busy and crowded never. united at 3 when it isnt busy, i allow, and a very specific way. so i do my job my way at the consternation of others that may feel i put my children at an unacceptable risk ergo allowing a labeling of unfit parent if some adult sees the need to label me, lol lol and a wink

ah the joys of judging others without all the info. and i am not saying this to you. more to self

[noamnety]

134. a hazard to navigation?

buahahahaha

This is like the restaurant deal, I see. I've been rammed ONCE with a shopping cart, by a bitchy old lady who thought I was loading groceries onto the belt at the cashier too slowly (I was well ahead of the cashier, but apparently she thought if I sped up, the cashier would magically become more efficient).

So first she snipped at me to hurry up, and when I ignored her, she started jamming her cart into my hip, to try to force me forward.

So no more shopping for little old ladies, no more restaurants for 70's tv actors.

[FreedomAngel82]

128. Aw

I agree kids have rights to. They are legal citizen's and do have the right to the Constiution and Bill of Rights.

[knitter4democracy]

135. I often feel the same way.

We have gotten very intolerant of each other in this society. I feel terrible that anyone who is childless by choice or necessity would feel that I, as a mom of two, would look down on him or her or pity or whatever. Hey, I had my children against the odds and was even starting to research infertility treatments when I found out I was preggers the first time, so I understand that not everyone can have children or even wants to. Frankly, the way my kids are behaving lately, I can seriously understand not wanting to.

I have two little ones (4 1/2 and 2 1/2), and I love them very much. They also happen to be spirited little ones, and so, if we go out to a nice restaurant, it's either for take-out or as a date with the kids at home with a baby-sitter. We're working on table manners at home, and when they're better at it, we'll try a family-friendly restaurant again. (They're both in temper tantrum phases, so . . .)

That said: when did our country decide to promote child-rearing but then keep it only in designated areas? We've been running into this at our church lately. It's a small church, as we don't have a cry room or nursery, so our kids are in the liturgy with everyone else. Not a Sunday goes by without some person (usually older whose kids are grown and gone and who doesn't even go to church anymore or raise the grandkids in a church at all) making some nasty comment. My daughter, who has always loved church, actually started saying she hated church after someone said something nasty directly to her and hurt her feelings. You can imagine how I felt about that. It's church! My kids are baptized Christians, same as these adults, and they are just as important as anyone else.

I understand that children are disruptive. Shoot, I'm the first and main person they bother all the time, so of course I know what they're like. I also understand that there are parents out there who don't try to keep their kids within some kind of boundaries. I also understand that being a parent is tough, that kids love to misbehave in public because they know they can't get in as much trouble there as they would at home (losing it and screaming at them in the grocery store could get Child and Family Services involved--had a neighbor call them once because we were letting our daughter, when she was two and it was hot out, play in the front yard with only a diaper on and my sitting right there playing with her).

Either we want children in our society or we don't. I respect your right to not have kids (either through choice or not), but please respect my right to have them and their right to exist in places where you are too. That's all we're asking for. We will do our best as parents, but we're not going to hide them at home and never let them out just because it might offend someone to see and hear a child.

[seabeyond]

138. what are you talking you were in your own home hiding away

and still got reported. you were reported for diaper? in the front yard. lordy, mine were naked. sorry all that i offended was one of those moments when i just had to say to all that were offended grow up. the ability for my little ones to feel the pure joy of nakedness in the warm summer breeze playing in water just overrode anyones sensitivity to a two year olds nakedness.

i tried to keep it in the back yard, but then being the out of control two year old they were, sometimes even in the front yard they would bolt out in nakedness. there was also the peeing on the tree thing. lol lol

ah well it is all in good fun. i like humor in much of our confused world today. a good laugh for all

another part of the challenge, others feeling their need to protect and inform has gone way over the line.

i have heard such crass statements from fellow parents alike to little children, if your daddy loved you he would buckle you up. if your mama loved you, she would quit smoking

[knitter4democracy]

140. Yup. The front yard.

I got a knock on the door late one night (was huge as a house with my second and wearing a robe, but I digress), and it was a cop. She told me that we'd been reported as neglectful parents (or something like that) because our daughter had been playing in our front yard naked more than once. Of course, the doorbell woke her up, so out toddles my daughter, wearing only a diaper, and the cop looks as embarrassed as can be. She starts explaining that she has to look into every complaint, that it's obvious our daughter is fine (looks healthy, etc.), and that she's just doing her job. She got out of there pretty quick.

Well, being eight months preggers and a little nuts, I called everyone the next day to make sure there was no report and that they couldn't take my baby away from me. I found out some interesting things, though, like they can interrogate your children at school without your knowledge, let alone your permission, if anyone reports abuse or neglect of any kind. I also found out that if a policewoman doesn't think a report has any merit, it dies on her desk--there isn't even a record, except of the housecall.

I'm pretty sure it was my neighbor across the street, who often gave us odd looks if we were in our front yard at all. The odd thing is, her son loved to come over and play, and I would supervise, no problem (and make sure that my daughter kept her clothes one, giggle!). I'll be glad to move, let me tell ya.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

159. Marketstreet on Georgia?

I have a serious problem getting Mr. 'pede to behave himself in the deli. :D

[seabeyond]

173. bah hahahahaha, you are funny hey you

that is funny. my kids like the lobster tank though i hit the new one now a days

[queenjane]

161. We're not really discussing children here; we're discussing their parents

I've been reading all these threads, and wasn't going to comment, but I think most of the posters are losing focus.

I am child-free by choice. I don't particularly like children, nor do I particularly dislike them. I simply have no interest in them and try to limit my exposure. That being said, I think it's fair to say that no one is criticising polite, well-behaved, and well-parented children. All the problems that have been mentioned have a single cause: Parents who, for reasons of disinterest, laziness, or poor judgment, will not respond appropriately to their children's behavior. This behavior includes:

1. Allowing kids to run screaming through stores, art galleries, restaurants, etc., banging into frail and elderly people for whom a fall could be catastrophic, interfering with wait staff, and blocking aisles.

2. Allowing kids to stand up in dining booths, lean over into the adjoining booth, and smack the other patrons on the head.

3. Ignoring kids as they throw food, garments, toys, and anything else within reach, onto floors or at others, creating hazards and leaving messes for others to clean up.

4. Standing by idly while children scream at ear-splitting decibels for half an hour at a time, during weddings, funerals, parties, church services, and other social gatherings, or who continue to shop while the child screeches at the top of his lungs. (I was once in an antique mall--a HUGE antique mall--when a woman entered with a year-old child. I thought this was cruel, subjecting such a young one to hours--it took hours to get through this place--of musty and dusty furniture. The kid began to wail, his cries echoing off the warehouse walls. Not once did Mom take the child outside, or even see to the problem. She just let him scream. For hours. Finally, enough people complained that the manager asked her to leave. I won't repeat what she said.)

5. Taking newborns to outdoor art shows in July, then ignoring the baby when its wailing from discomfort. Also taking babies to loud and crowded outdoor events, such as Civil War reenactments, subjecting them to the damaging noises of artillery barrages, then whipping them when they whine or cry. Sorry, but some places just aren't appropriate for very young kids. Also, if a sign reads "Don't play on the breastworks, dunes, etc,", then don't let your kids play on them! These are fragile and/or historic structures.

6. Using the absolute largest stroller you can buy--a Titanic-sized stroller--in crowded events such as art shows, craft shows, etc.--and then ramming people with it to move them out of your way. (I've noticed a happy trend recently: Stroller-free days at the above! This allows my elderly mom, who has broken both hips and walks with a cane, to maneuver safely at events she loves.)

When I was a kid (back in the 60's), I knew my boundaries. My parents often took me to restaurants, museums, to visit their friends, etc., and I was expected to behave with politeness and decorum, and respect others' property. If I didn't, I knew I'd be sorry. And no, I wasn't beaten. I recall only one whipping, and that was because I ran out into the road, and my father was terrified. (And no, he didn't abuse me.)

In other words, if you're not guilty of any of the above, no one is complaining about you and your children. Your children are a reflection of you, your values, your sense of decency and respect for others. It's never too early to teach them that they share a very crowded planet.

[smirkymonkey]

165. Bravo, queenjane!

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[bloom]

166. I basically agree with that.

I have two grown "children" and I appreciate it when parents use some sense about things. People without kids should realize that things happen and kids can get cranky in various situations.

Also - there are some restaurants (even "fancier ones") set up to deal with kids better than others, etc.

One of my stories is once we were on a hike down a hill and my daughter was being so fussy that when the ranger came by I was afraid she would think I was expecting too much of her, pushing her to hike too much or make some assumption. We did give up the hike soon after and my daughter RAN up the hill. :eyes: you just never know.

I agree that the parents should be paying attention to their kids and I agree with the parents who think that people should not expect perfect kids all the time.

So I think there is room on both sides.

[iverglas]

170. heh heh heh

... Not once did Mom take the child outside, or even see to the problem. She just let him scream. For hours. Finally, enough people complained that the manager asked her to leave. I won't repeat what she said.

Yours was in an antique mall, mine was in an Ikea up here in Canada. And I'll tell you what they said. ;)

As I went from aisle to aisle and room to room, stopping to find what I needed, the woman with the screaming kid in the stroller followed me, virtually footstep for footstep, always one aisle directly behind me. She made not a single effort to distract the child or comfort it. I was actually shopping for a few things, and didn't have all day to criss cross the store trying to get out of earshot. Finally, I was scrutinizing a display of curtain rings, trying to figure out why I couldn't find the ones to match the ones I already had and needed another package of, and just had enough.

I stepped around the display between us, and asked her whether she couldn't please do something to try to stop the child screaming. She said "he's teething". Well ... that explained why he was screaming -- but NOT why she had brought him to Ikea to do it.

I probably said something else, but gave up and wandered off. A couple of minutes later, along came Daddy, and I could see Mummy telling him what had happened. He came over to confront me, and he was a big strong Daddy, and he was making physically threatening postures -- and these were very yuppie parents, btw. I guess I said something about the inconsideration of bringing a screaming child to the store. All perfectly calmly, if exasperatedly. He said words to the effect of how dare I say such things to his family. And then ...

"You know", he said, "We're Americans."

I don't know what he thought that was supposed to prove ... but I hope everyone here will forgive me for what I said back.

"Well duh. That was obvious."

[gollygee]

172. That would have bothered me but for a completely different reason

Children who are crying are asking to be picked up. If he was teething, he probably wanted comfort. I can't imagine leaving a baby crying in a stroller instead of picking him/her up.

I bet if she'd picked him up he would have quieted down right away. And then everyone would have been happy.

[Bridget Burke]

175. She probably let him cry all the time at home.

So she was used to it. More bystanders are less insulted at being disturbed than concerned about a child in distress.

[seabeyond]

182. i cant do a crying baby, i am not shy

can walk over to any fussy baby and put finger in hand and coo it to smile and nicely talk to mom. never has anything not been resolved. and i have done it not stepping on parents toe, or judging or making parent mad. always it ends nicely and all feeling good

[iverglas]

178. same reason

Of course he wanted comfort. And like I said in an earlier post -- we human beings are designed by nature to respond to children's screams by doing something.

Dogs have been domesticated by us to guard us and our property, so we are attuned to their barking as something that should make us prick up our own ears and see what the dog is barking about -- what danger needs averting. When the people who own the dogs ignore the barking, the rest of us still have the nerves-on-edge response to a noise that makes us, physically, want to do something.

Kids voices, and the noises they make with them, are designed to make us want to find out what problem they are experiencing, and do something about it. That way the species gets perpetuated, and kids with broken bones and empty tummies don't just wander around screaming without anybody paying any attention.

The problem for us strangers out here is that when someone else's screaming child wants comfort, WE can't do anything about it. *I* can't walk up the stroller and say "Hello little fellow, let me pick you up and take you for a walk around the toy department." (Actually, there are instances in which I would step in and do something to distract the child, if the parent seemed distressed, but this wasn't a case where that would have worked.) I just get to listen to the wailing and feel my teeth clenching and my nerves coiling and not have any outlet for the tension.

I can't imagine leaving a baby crying in a stroller instead of picking him/her up.

I can't either!! I can't imagine taking the teething unhappy baby to Ikea in the first place, of course, but there you are.

I'm not totally convinced that picking a teething baby up would stop the wailing -- and if it didn't, the solution was for the parents to take their private problem out of the public place -- to take the child they had chosen to have back to their home where they could do their duty as parents and look after him.

There simply is no need for Swedish modern home accessories that is sufficiently urgent to justify subjecting either the child or a bunch of strangers to teething in Ikea.

[gollygee]

184. Well teething pain comes and goes for months

it isn't possible or practical to stay home for months while your baby is teething, and you don't always know when the pain will strike. But she should have tried to comfort him, and if she was unable to comfort him she should have taken him home.

[lukasahero]

176. Ouch

I'm sure we'll forgive you if you'll forgive us for having fellow citizens that can be such jerks.

[LibertyLover]

168. Kids

My husband and I have been parents a little over 15 months. Our adopted daughter is currently 2 and a half and right in the middle of the terrible twos. It's not easy sometimes to control her tantrums but if we are somewhere together and she misbehaves one of us takes her outside. We make sure that she stays away from things like salad bars because she is a child. We also haven't gone to an adult restaurant with her or to the movies, etc. because we are still working on the behavior thing. She's usually good, but when she's tired, she can cry, scream, kick, and generally be badly behaved. I accept that she can be a nuisance and I try to minimize adults' exposure to it.

Having said that, what upsets me is being someplace that is more than just child friendly, but geared to children and having adults complain. Recently we were at Walt Disney World in Florida. My daughter was tired and we were taking her back to the hotel for a nap. As is the case, some little thing set her off and she began to cry. Some obnoxious adult looked down his nose at her and said in a loud voice to his group that he was glad that noisy brat wasn't in their hotel - he'd have to strangle it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Don't even go there.

[Bridget Burke]

171. If someone wants to avoid stressed-out kids....

They probably need to STAY AWAY from Walt Disney World!

(And I mean "stressed-out" in a good way. Too much fun can be as stressful as 3 hours bored out of their skulls at an antique show.)

[fishnfla]

177. Most kids are so much cooler than ALL adults, anyday,anytime

Good on ya'! Good on your young 'uns! Lets hear it for kids rights!

[seabeyond]

183. deeeeewwwwwd, you rock lol lol n/t

[seabeyond]

180. well i give up, lol, i thought we might be a little more patient

with each other and understanding. maybe more tolerance. but i am not seeing it is going to happen with some. that is ok. has been a lesson for me, and being able to listen to so many i have a better understanding. that is always a good thing for me.

i had a call from one brother last nite telling me his right to be a bigot. as i yell i dont want to hear the shit. he tells me his right. i am yelling i am so damn tired of all this intolerance for one another

this morning i have a conversation with other brother and immediately hear crap about liberals and i just went into a screaming rage about i dont want to hear another single moment about how bad the "other" person is.

i will stay in my nice safe little cushioned enviroment where we are kind and loving and accepting and caring and compassionate for one another. accepting the weakness and glorifying our strengths, wink

and the child, adult, whatever having a bad day, i will give them a smile, a nice comment and help to brigthen their day, so i wont be experiencing all the pains that seem to be irritating so many in our nation

[seabeyond]

181. you just arent getting rid of kids, you arent getting rid of bad

parents. you are simply setting yourself up for a lot of anger in your own life

[iverglas]

186. y'know

I think I have seldom seen such smug self-satisfaction and self-congratulation as I have seen in your posts in this thread, your "wink"s not withstanding.

I see no acceptance by you of anyone else's anything, let alone any evidence of giving a damn. I have noted your rather pointed avoidance of points that others, myself included, have made about why it might be really nice of you to consider someone outside your own perfect little family from time to time. (You hypothesize a recently-orphaned stressed-out 6-yr-old pitching a fit in a restaurant ... I hypothesize my just-widowed stressed-out mother having to listen to him ... and you have no comment. Oh, and by the way -- my mother would have been disturbed by the scene more because she can't bear witnessing children in distress than anything else; she still wouldn't have needed to witness it in her own time of distress.)

Other people aren't always just the background scenery in your own life dramas. Other people have problems of their own that you don't know anything about.

Smile and brighten my day all you like. I spent part of this morning sitting in a medical lab waiting room doing that myself -- humorously sympathizing with the young immigrant woman whose bladder was busting while she waited for ultrasound and trying to make her feel a little better, when I was myself in a state of some distress as I waited for my second round of mammography this month.

But don't think that this saintliness means that I will have warm feelings toward you if you haul your kids into the restaurant where I'm having a quiet drink and dinner tonight as I wait out the time until I get the results of that mammogram.

A true saint actually thinks about other people even when it inconveniences him/her a little to do so.

[Moderator]

193. Locking

Thread has run its course; too many personal attacks