Let's crunch some numbers with a minimum wage earner, shall we?

[Bouncy Ball]

Just for any lurking right winger who happens to be totally out of touch with what it's like to live in today's economy making minimum wage, let's do a realistic estimate of what it's like.

Sue makes $ 5.15 an hour working at the Tea Tree Plant in Dallas, Texas. That's minimum wage. Since they don't want to give her benefits, she works there 39 hours a week. (That not giving benefits thing is NOT unusual.)

So she makes, before taxes are taken out, $ 200.85 a week or $ 803.40 per month (remember that's gross income, not net).

Her one bedroom apartment at the Carrier Arms is $495 per month. The only bills that are paid with that are water, sewer and garbage. She has to pay:

Electric: $ 80 month
Phone: $ 50 month
Car insurance: $ 100 month
Gas (car) $ 60 month

(Please note she does not have cable, internet access, or any consumer debt.)

Her total expenses so far BEFORE food and without a car payment are $ 785 a month, which leaves her with....well, nothing. Remember the $ 803 figure is before taxes are taken out.

So clearly that isn't going to work. And I even kept her expenses really minimal.

So let's say she takes a second job, which she'd HAVE to do. And she makes minimum wage at that job, which she works at 20 hours per week. That adds another $ 412 (gross) to her income per month, increasing it to $ 1215.40.

Now she has a bit of wiggle room. So take that $ 785 in expenses per month. Add about $100 a month in groceries. And add in a car payment. Let's be realistic, someone in this situation is not likely to own a car outright. Let's make the car payment really small, though, say she got suckered into a lease and the payment's only $ 185 per month.

Now her expenses are $ 1070. Since the $ 1215.40 figure was before taxes, I'm thinking she either BARELY makes it or has to cut back on the food dollars.

Now throw in one child. Not school age. Full time daycare in the Dallas area, CHEAP daycare, might run her about $400 a month. That's using an unlicensed home daycare provider.

How does she afford that? How does she afford diapers? Oh and the $400 a month is so low because a neighbor in the next apartment watches the baby when she works her second job, but the neighbor isn't so dependable and she's almost lost that second job a couple of times because of a lack of child care.

And without medical coverage, how does she pay for the doctor or prescriptions?

IF she meets the low income eligibility requirements, she can get Medicaid for her and her child. Without that, though, she's up a creek without a paddle. She will be one of the many people who present themselves and/or their children at ERs with no insurance.

A child who isn't taken to the doctor when they are sick tends to have school absenteeism problems. School absenteeism tends to lead to a lack of success in school. Which tends to lead to dropping out or barely graduating. Which tends NOT to lead to college. Which means they are more likely going to work the same kind of dead-end minimum wage jobs as their PARENTS did.

Repukes DO NOT SEE HOW EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED IN SOCIETY. They think "Well, I got mine, we're fine, what do I care?"

They don't see how the county hospital, which runs on taxpayer dollars is having to use more and more of those taxpayer dollars as more and more people without insurance show up. They don't see how kids without medical care tend to be kids who have school problems and that kids who have school problems don't TEND to end up with high paying or even good-paying jobs as adults.

They DON'T SEE THE CYCLE and they don't see how it DOES affect them.

They also don't see how, in the "greatest," "richest" nation on the planet, no woman should be going to a second job worrying about her five month old being left with a woman who falls asleep with a lit cigarette in her hand because she HAS NO OTHER CHOICE for day care. No child should have a simple ear or sinus infection turn into pneumonia in both lungs in the world's "greatest," "richest" nation. No one should have to choose between paying the electric bill, the rent or feeding their kids.

And the saddest part of all, they don't see how, with all their chest beating about being Christian, they are doing all this to "the least among you."

"And Jesus wept...."

[Not_Giving_Up]

1. Bingo!

How can she only have a $60 light bill in Dallas? You know the summertime is going to be way more than that to cool her apartmrnt. If she's upstairs, it's even worse.

[Bouncy Ball]

4. I said $80 for electric.

And I was using the formula where the electric company averages out their use over the year so they don't have FREAKY high bills in summer and really low ones in winter (I am assuming electric heat and of course that wouldn't be too bad, as Dallas winters are usually pretty mild).

So it was a yearly average, plus her apartment is only about 500 square feet or so.

I did lowball some of the numbers but that just tells you it is worse than my scenario.

I also didn't account for ANY money for a rainy day fund. There's none left over for that.

I also didn't account for maintenance on the car, such as oil changes, tires and tire rotation, if anything goes wrong with the car past the warranty, car accident, etc.

[Not_Giving_Up]

My bad, so you did

You know, in order to get on the balanced billing (with Reliant anyway) is to live in the same place for a year, so that they can get your average. If her finances are that tight, she might move quite a bit, one cheap apartment to the other, 6 month leases. She'd never make it to balanced billing.

[Bouncy Ball]

9. Dayum you are right about that.

So I averaged it for the purposes of the illustration.

But you brought up another problem--the transient nature of the low-income working poor.

ARound here, low-rent apartments offer first month's free rent, so they'll jump out on last month's rent at another place and go to the other complex for a month of free rent. That month they can actually afford to live and pay their bills.

But only that month.

Then pretty soon, it's time to move again. I also know of families who split the family up, a la the Great Depression, one kid at an aunt's house, one kid being raised by granny, one kid with the parent(s). Etc.

[Not_Giving_Up]

19. We tend to move when we get our tax return back

Thanks to EIC, we can afford the deposit, and whatever else we have to cough up to move. Several years ago, we did the first month free, jump and bail thing, because we had no choice.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. You're not alone.

When I was teaching at a very low socioeconomic school it was not unusual at all to have the kids move away to a neighboring burb or an aparment complex that fed into a different school, only to have them come back six weeks later, three months later, what have you.

When a kid withdrew we would say "See you later!" instead of goodbye. They always thought that was funny, but it was actually sad.

That kind of jumping around from school to school and even from district to district is really hard on a kid and they don't tend to get the most out of their education, in fact, they tend to fall behind a lot.

[Not_Giving_Up]

29. Here's one for you

When my son was in first grade, we moved three times, to three different states. We had moved to South Carolina from Texas before the kids started school. He was at the same school the whole year for Kindergarten, then we moved to a really small town, doing a rent to own deal. I was driving to the previous town to work. My boss figured out that I could do 40 hours worth of work in 20 hours, and cut my hours in half. So, I started looking for another job, which I found, in North Carolina. That boss was a moron, not putting the money he made back into his company, but spending it on stupid shit that he wanted. One day, he tells me that he can no longer afford to pay me. So, we came back home to Texas. The poor kid didn't know which way was up. To make matters worse, he's ADHD, and Aspie - he doesn't deal well with change.

Our tax return is on it's way, be don't plan to move this time. We hate the landlords here, but we're waiting until summer to move.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. That's awful.

:hug:

Your boss sounds like he was a real piece of shit. I do hope things get better for you real soon.

[Not_Giving_Up]

39. Well, now I'm working for repugs who are about to get rid of me

More or less because I was happy that Boxer stood up. The good news - my stepdad's union hall is looking for someone to start next month to replace someone who is retiring. The pay is DOUBLE what I'm making now...I hope I get it!

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

195. You already asked that on the other thread.

Why don't you go over there and check it out?

[WLKjr]

2. Sounds like my expenses

I only make 7.75 and that is about how my situation is, and I am still living at home and in school and working fulltime 38 hours a week. I get taxed to death, and only pull if I am lucky 450 every two weeks.

[Der Blaue Engel]

3. I've been her

And it wasn't fun :(

Couldn't afford to see a doctor when I was pregnant, or go to the hospital had anything gone wrong with the home birth I paid my midwives $1,200 for on a payment plan.

That was when the last Mr. Bush was in office.

[Bouncy Ball]

6. I've been her, too.

And it was depressing as hell. And I came from an upper middle class family. I was struggling a lot the first several years I was on my own.

I don't ever wish to go back to those days of worrying over every single thin dime. No extra money for ANYTHING.

Once I was helping out at a garage sale and my dad put out a huge box of nothing but old VHS tapes. Some had the box missing, or the label missing, or some were stuff recorded off TV and had no label. He was offering the whole box of about 15 of them for $2. Some guy asked if he would take $ 1.50 and my dad said yes. He carried it off. I asked my dad "Now why in the world would someone want all those old tapes? He doesn't even know what's ON half of them."

And my dad said "For $ 1.50 that's a lot of entertainment. And if that's all he can afford, that's a damn good deal. You take what you can get when you are really poor."

My dad was speaking from experience.

[lapislzi]

74. Me too

Newly separated from abusive husband, with 3-yr-old. Lucky the worst that happened to me (other than the constant terror that I'd lose my home) was that I lost 2 teeth. BTW, even straight extractions are costly. Took me 2 years to pay them off. What were they going to do, put the rotten teeth back in my head?

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmokingJacket]

85. I'm happy you're reading this thread.

It's an education, isn't it?

[Tux]

5. True

What I don't understand is how offshoring/outsoucing will help her. Conservatives love to say she'll get rich from it. Sure. Then again, that woman's situation is what Bush wants for all of us. It's the New American Dream©

[Bouncy Ball]

7. WHAT?

I have NEVER heard that argument. HOw the hell would outsourcing or offshoring help HER????

I don't get that at all.

[hfojvt]

43. It is fairly basic economics

a wage is only worth what it will buy. $5.15 an hour is how many DvDs? If they are "made in China" the price goes down, so her real wage goes up.
Of course, the real world does not work like economic theory. Many of the things she buys, like living space, bread and milk cannot be made in China. Also, the people whose jobs are outsourced are certainly not going to benefit and a surge in unemployment will likely produce a downward pressure on wages and benefits.

[hatrack]

63. Which is why I never understood the "core" inflation rate

They're always saying things like "excluding the volatile food and energy categories, inflation only rose by 0.0002% last month."

Uh, what could possibly be more "core" than food to eat and electricity and natural gas to heat, cool and power your home? If you have to choose between those miraculously inexpensive DVDs and eating, which are you going to choose? Hmmmmmmmmm . . .

Is this just more economists' bullshit to make the numbers look al smooth and pretty? Or is the social control/propoganda/Forced Media Happy-Talk aspect more important?

[elehhhhna]

212. Please keep posting that info whenever possible.

The numbers are fake. We all know inflation is inflating.

[lostinacause]

265. If the core inflation rate included those goods the number

would vary far too much a would only be an indication of what the prices for the volatile good were. Take a look in the newspaper at the crude prices vs. time. The number has its uses, though they are the most useful to economists and the government.

[Bouncy Ball]

110. THank you for that answer, it explains a lot!

[lostinacause]

266. The prices of food and living space will go down a little

the reason why they don't go down faster is barriers to trade that are both natural and artificial

[ultraist]

8. Does she go naked? (just noticed clothing was not in her budget)

Good description.

The lazy undeserving bitch better work three jobs and take public transportation. She shouldn't be buying luxury items like cars. Let her tote that baby and groceries on the bus.

And how dare she spend $495 a month on rent! Let her live in a rooming house or a shelter.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. Dammit, another thing I forgot.

Clothing. For her AND the baby. Ok let's say she gets her clothes from the Goodwill store and garage sales, same thing for the baby. That's still an expense. And I honestly don't know where it would come from in that budget.

Oh this is Dallas. NO public transportation. She lives and works in the burbs where it's a bit less scary. Besides, to live IN Dallas usually means either REALLY scary apartments or REALLY expensive apartments or homes.

So she lives and works in the burbs, where there is absolutely NO public transport.

Around here, no car, no luck.

I guess I could have her and her baby in an efficiency and that's $395 a month so there's an extra $100 freed up.

But most complexes have only a limited number of efficiencies and since they are the cheapest, they are actually hard to come by.

I guess she and her baby could live in the car.....

[murray hill farm]

82. most efficiencies don't allow children..

i have been there too..with three little kids..years ago..when it was easier to do than now. One of the things that no one thinks of is the cost of cleaning..including the laundramat..very costly..or things like soap and shampoo and things like toilet paper and everyday cleaning products to clean your house..these are very costly..so ya do without..or use the cheapest thing u can find..or steal rolls of toilet paper from public bathrooms..because that is the only way you are going to have that luxury. What about simple things like aspirin..forget it...toothpaste or deoderant..no way..and then the stereotype of the lazy poor goes on...and people say they wouldn't be poor if they weren't too lazy to clean their houses..or wash their clothing..or tend to basic hygene...i got a million stories of being poor...it is not a fun way to live.

[Bouncy Ball]

111. Toiletries ARE very expensive

it always amazes me how much of my grocery budget goes to things like OTC medications, tp, deoderant, shampoo and conditioner, etc. And I buy store brand, use coupons, hit sales.

[Bouncy Ball]

13. I'm also trying to figure out where she could cram in a third job.

It would involve, again, finding childcare. And she's already working 59 hours a week. I guess she could work another 10 somewhere, making it 69 hours a week.

Of course, she's never seeing her baby. And that causes problems, especially as said kid gets older and has a lack of parental guidance and supervision.

SEE RIGHT WINGERS??? SEE HOW IT'S A GREAT BIG CONNECTED BALL OF STICKY PROBLEMS? One leads to another, assholes.

[ultraist]

26. Parents spending time with their children is not a *family value*

Let the kid stay home alone. If she can't afford daycare, that's her fucking problem.

Remember what Bush recently said, "working three jobs with a child is a victory!"

[Bouncy Ball]

28. Right. That was fucking SICK.

Anyway, she CAN'T leave a baby alone, so that isn't an option for her now.

I have known low-income families who leave kids unsupervised as young as five or six but even that will get CPS on your ass real fast.

[MountainLaurel]

66. CPS action -- don't bet on it

A classmate of mine is a children's librarian in a neighborhood where parents routinely drop off 4 and 5 years olds because they can't afford child care, or there's no one at home and the kids eventually just wander in. The library has given up on calling Family Services, because there's not much they can do, they're so overwhelmed.

[Bouncy Ball]

112. I was wondering if anyone would mention that.

Even if CPS is called, they usually just start a file on the person (if it even warrants that). CPS caseworkers are so overloaded it takes quite a bit to come to the attention of the state.

[retnavyliberal]

167. Wellllllllllllllll yano if she had used the abstinence method...

she would be much better off. The evil sinner should see the light! /sarcasm

[Nobody]

50. Bush just got sent an email about this very topic

And I quoted the Drudge site that mentioned the women working three jobs. Oh how fantastic! No, it's not fantastic.

And in that budget, you missed the one thing every woman her age needs(and if she has a baby, she needs them): Sanitary supplies. These are not cheap and they're more expensive out of a machine.

$495 for a small apartment? Whoa! You can't get housing that cheap here. Even efficiencies go for well over $600 in a bad part of town.

Some letter writer to my local paper actually suggested that poor people have the safety net removed because those shiftless lazy people should live on the public's dime. He suggested that they should live in a rat infested one room apartment with several roommates and eat ramen noodles.

And the contempt for the poor is only increasing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. Yes and how "uniquely" American to quote our president.

Wooo freaking hoo.

[Bouncy Ball]

113. MAN, another thing I forgot!

Good call, I did forget....sanitary supplies. And no, those aren't cheap, even if she buys store brand.

We DO have cheaper housing here in Texas (not ALL over Texas, but in most parts).

That letter writer should live that life himself before suggesting it for others. Somehow I bet he calls himself a "Christian," too.

[wildeyed]

141. Parents spending time with their children is only a family value

if you are middle class, according to the RWingers. If you are affluent woman, quit your job to stay home with the kidlets and you are a hero. If you choose to work outside the home, you are selfish. But if you are a poor mother you are expected to work incessantly, called irresponsible and shouldn't have had sex in the first place.

[JerseygirlCT]

146. LOL - sorry, I should have read this before posting

You said it all.

[wildeyed]

147. Well you really can't say it too often or too loud:

RWingers are HYPOCRITES!

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Slight correction:

wealthy parents need to have mom at home, making cookies and being submissive.

The poor -- well screw 'em. They went and had those kids, they'd better get off their lazy butts and pull themselves up by their bootstraps (what, you say they can't afford the boots? Try the ones made in China, they're cheap).

[Bouncy Ball]

11. I forgot to mention the crime factor.

I hope anyone reading that sees how easy it can be to either turn to crime or be the victim of crime in her scenario.

[BeFree]

12. Every damn time

That the minimum wage was increased, the national economy took
flight and the whole nation prospered for quite some time.

Why? Because people like Sue had a little extra cash that they could spend, and that cash spread around and around and around before the rich finally grabbed it up and invested it in China, never to be seen again.

Ya know, whenever I got a raise, I worked a little harder, became more productive and lived a little happier. Whenever I had a no-raise job, I became less productive (screw 'em) and walked around pissed all the time until I finally shoved that job up the bosses' ass.

And then ya see these ass-kissing fools on tv say that if we jack the minimum wage up, it results in less employment, yadda-yadda-yadda, LIES! Just look at history you fools! I can't believe they are getting away with those lies on tv, still.

[Bouncy Ball]

15. I used to think the minimum wage, as it stands now

was a crying shame.

I now think it's criminal.

In Texas, it is the same as the federal minimum wage, but in states like Alabama and Kansas, there IS NO MINIMUM.

[G_j]

22. yes it is

criminal
& the smallest 'emergency' such as a car breaking down or an illness can put a hard working min. wage earner in the street.

(btw, I nominated this thread)

[Bouncy Ball]

24. Thanks

and yeah, ANY kind of setback that might be minor to a person making more money would be catastrophic for a person in her situation.

[hfojvt]

93. one of the worst setbacks I see for young people

seems to be traffic fines, and you know that poor people are targeted for that crap. This guy I work with is fighting a ticket for driving on a suspended license. Why was he driving on a suspended license? He was at the courthouse paying his previous fines.

[Patiod]

98. I call it DWP - driving while poor

I think some of DWB is DWB and some is DWP.

Let's face it - who is more likely to have something wrong (insurance, inspections, registration) that will result in a ticket that makes the municipality mucho dinero? Mr. 1980 Nova, or Mr. 2003 Lexus? Cops aren't stupid - they know where the money is.

My SO (who is white) got stopped almost every time he went into Lower Merion township in his crappy 20-year-old junker. Police in the posh suburbs are just WAITING for people in old cars. He has NEVER gotten a ticket in my boring (but not beat up) 2001 Olds Alero, and now that one of his friends sold him his 15-year-old 6-accidents/ruined frame/looks-good-on-the-surface Beemer, he can drive around there without any problems.

[Bouncy Ball]

114. Here in TX (as in a lot of states) there is a state law that requires

you to have car insurance, but too many people do not, because they can't afford it. If it comes down to food or car insurance, you can bet you'll pick food.

Then if you are hit by someone uninsured, YOUR insurance has to pay for it.

[ultraist]

118. LMAO!!! DWP! I've never heard that one, but I have heard the concept

What about rental centers? People who cannot afford to buy appliances and furniture rent them and end up paying more in the long run and never own it.

Same deal with being a renter vs. homeowner.

[Nobody]

188. Around here the gas prices are higher in poorer areas

The cheapest gas prices are in the more affluent suburbs.

[Patiod]

211. Same with food prices - higher in poor areas

There aren't many supermarkets in areas like North Philadelphia - people rely on higher-priced botegas, corner stores, chinese take-out, etc. The prices in the richer suburbs are pretty good, though.

[elehhhhna]

213. Fed minimum supercedees local. AL & KS min. is the Fed minimum.

[kineneb]

179. I pretend to work

and they pretend to pay me...and I make $10/hr...no benefits...no paid holidays...on CMSP (adult rural MediCal) so Hubby (insulin-dep. diabetic) can get some kind of health care...used to be middle-class before WorldCom went belly up and laid off everyone...thank goodness we were able to sell the house in the Bay Area before we lost it...now need to visit food pantry so we can pay for propane to heat house...

[G_j]

14. excellent post

and you didn't include for example, clothes, tires, toothpaste, shampoo, dentist, laundromat etc.

it is very sad that some people just don't get it

[Bouncy Ball]

17. In the $100 a month for groceries, I was

assuming toiletries, but you are right, I forgot clothes, tires, oil changes, etc.

Oh there's no dentist for them.

And I forgot quarters for the laundromat, good catch.

With $100 a month going to food and toiletries, it doesn't go very far. I am assuming she is clipping coupons and catching things on sale.

If her baby is on formula, that's another $60 a month or more. I don't see how she could be nursing working 59 hours a week unless she is pumping breast milk.

And I still can't figure out how she affords diapers in that budget, which can run to about $60 a month. (Those are cheap generic diapers and not changing them right away.)

[DebJ]

54. ahh, the laundry scheme. The first two years I was divorced, with

kids 5 and 2 yrs old, still in diapers, I put enough money into the machines to buy both of them outright...but of course, I had nothing for that money.
Also, many day care facilities INSIST on paper diapers...an environmental nuisance, and my kids were allergic to the heat thus generated. I was lucky enough (20 yrs ago) to have a sitter who didn't use rubber pants on the diaper crowd. Instead, she watched them, checked them, and put plastic on her furniture. She was an hispanic immigrant and had the most genuine family love for all children I've ever seen.

Edit: forgot the COST of paper diapers...huge

[Midlodemocrat]

61. If she is clipping coupons, she is buying the paper

and can't afford that. God, I hate this administration.

[Bouncy Ball]

115. Well, to be fair, if she buys only a Sunday paper

that is $1.50 per Sunday around here. IF she uses enough coupons, she should more than make up that money.

Problem is, I noticed more and more coupons are for really expensive and/or unnecessary items. Very rarely nowdays do I ever find really good coupons for simple, basic stuff like I used to (I am the Coupon Queen).

So yeah, that's a problem.

[Nobody]

199. Swipe the coupon section from the break room

Many workplaces have newspapers lying around. Where I work even at first break you find entire sections missing. I wonder if someone like Sue is grabbing the coupons because an extra 50 cents /day really adds up.

[amazona]

236. you don't buy the paper in that situation

You walk around to people's recycle bins and take out the section with the coupons. I know. Technically illegal. But you'll never get arrested for it. And you can pick up more coupons than you would ever use.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[DebJ]

52. food stamps don't cover toothpaste, either. I have to stock up

my handicapped adult son with soap, toothpaste, razors, etc.

[Lars39]

16. Your post reminded me of "Advice for the New Poor" Series

that DuctapeFatwa wrote.

Here's the link for the entire series:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=590664

[Bouncy Ball]

18. Thank you!

I started reading part one. Chilling and sad, but very well-written. I am bookmarking that.

[Lars39]

30. Feel free to post it as a stand alone thread...

my threads tend to sink. :)

[BoogDoc7]

20. How about...

You cannot ignore anecdotal evidence, that much is true...but what is the number of people in the workforce that are in her situation? I understand a single situation is dire enough, but how often is this occurring? Without hard numbers, I don't see how the story - or any of the arguments that result from it - are complete.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. Um......

where do you live?

I could go just a tiny bit north in my city and find literally thousands of families living like that. Just in MY suburb of Dallas.

I know them. I taught their kids. Their grandmas sell their plasma to buy them eyeglasses. They live in a car with mom. They're shipped off to another city to live with dad or grandma or auntie for a while while mom gets back on her feet financially after having medical bills overwhelm them.

1.3 million more people in the US have fallen into poverty since bush took office in 2000. Is that enough for you?

[ultraist]

33. 45 MILLION people without healthcare

Most of whom are in the low income bracket or at or below poverty level. 1.7 Million people fell into poverty last year alone.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. My bad, I said 1.3 million but I think your figure is the correct one.

But hey, what's an extra 400,000 people falling into poverty?

According to bush, working three jobs is "uniquely American" (yes, sadly, it is) and "FANTASTIC!"

:puke:

[BoogDoc7]

72. Where is...

A raw source for these numbers?

[ultraist]

94. The source for these numbers can be found at the US Census Bureau site

[KaliTracy]

36. Unfortunately, it is very complete. Just because you can't see it doesn't

mean it's not there. See post #32.

[DebJ]

55. been there, done that. Suburban Maryland. lots of company!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. Oh yeah, her powers of imagination and talent with fiction

are so amazing. I can't imagine any of this could REALLY be true. :crazy:

Anyway, thanks Bouncy Ball for such a great thread!

[Pithlet]

225. How many minimum wage jobs do you think there are

in this country? Do you think the poor are just a myth? Do you honestly think that the scenario above is rare?

[Endangered Specie]

25. Some other things that you forgot:

car REPAIR bills, clothes, medication, postage/envelopes, soap and toiletries, parking, etc...

[Bouncy Ball]

27. Yeah

some other eagle eyes caught that for me in this thread.

I did assume for soap and toiletries to come out of the $100 per month for groceries.

I don't know where she's going to get the money for car repairs or maintenance, clothing (even at the Goodwill store) or other miscellaneous items.

I did mention IF she qualifies for Medicaid (and I don't know if she would with $1215 a month) then doctor's visits and medicine are taken care of, but if she doesn't, she's screwed. And so is her kid.

Or she just waits and shows up at the ER, uninsured.

[ultraist]

38. Adults don't get medicaid, only children

Adults get it only if they are disabled.

No insurance for able bodied adults unless they pay for it themselves.

[Bouncy Ball]

40. Oh wow, I didn't know that.

Ok so she might or might NOT get Medicaid for her baby.

I checked out the eligibility site for Texas Medicaid and it didn't have any hard numbers, but I am afraid, based on what it said, that at her level of income, her child wouldn't qualify for it.

You just made me think of something else: what if SHE gets sick?

Her jobs aren't the types of jobs you get sick days on. She gets sick, she doesn't get paid. She gets sick for too long and she loses her job.

[ultraist]

99. The baby can get it, but she cannot for herself, sorry!

IF her income is low enough to qualify, her baby can get it. I don't know what the limit is, it may be FPL.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. MASTER LIST OF ITEMS I FORGOT IN HER BUDGET:

I forgot:

1. Clothing, for herself and the baby. Let's assume Goodwill store and garage sales. Though I still don't see where that is going to come from.

2. Either formula or a breast pump (working 59 hours a week she cannot meet full needs for nursing in person) and bottles/supplies. Formula will run $60 a month or more. Bottles and supplies, I can't remember that far back. A really cheap manual pump (dear God) would be about $15. But that's hell. She'll have some huge biceps.

3. Car maintenance such as oil changes, tires, tire rotation, etc.

4. Car repairs, for when the car is out of warranty or not covered under warranty.

5. Quarters for the laundromat (she certainly doesn't have a washer or dryer).

Anything else I'm missing? I am assuming Medicaid, though that's NOT a given, given her monthly income. No way would she be able to pay for doctor's visits or rx so she'd just go to the county hospital ER with no insurance (indigent patient).

[Tsiyu]

62. Well, if she has any relationship

(hetero) she'll need birth control. And feminine hygiene products are outrageously expensive ( if men had periods, you can bet they'd be subsidized.)

This is the way Repukes like it. They feel better about themselves when others are "lower" than they are. But to me, an employer who doesn't pay a living wage is screwing his entire community. He or she is saying to all the other businessmen, "I want YOUR employees to buy MY goods and services, but I don't want to pay MY employees enough to buy YOUR goods and services."

[CitySky]

75. good point.

"But to me, an employer who doesn't pay a living wage... is saying to all the other businessmen, "I want YOUR employees to buy MY goods and services, but I don't want to pay MY employees enough to buy YOUR goods and services."

This is true, and a great way of putting it. Will work this into conversations :thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

116. Yeesh, someone pointed out sanitary supplies above, but I did leave out

birth control.

I have a state representative who has voted twice to reduce birth control availability to poor women who go to low-cost clinics, so that is getting harder and harder to come by.

And remember, the right DOESN'T want her having abortions! They want her having more babies she can't afford!

Also, I want to point out to everyone that this woman has ONE baby, not two or three.

Just one.

[kdmorris]

117. As a side note...

most poor women would not be able to afford an abortion, which is probably why many of them end up with so many kids. If you can't afford birth control and you can't afford an abortion, what you end up with is another baby.

I'm not sure how much abortions cost these days, but in 1995, they were $500 to have one in the first trimester.

[elehhhhna]

214. most 2nd term A's are for one of 2 reasons:

Young woman waited to tell parents until she was "showing"

Or: Took a couple months to save the money to pay for the procedure.


Safe, Legal & Rare?

[gaia_gardener]

255. I have a married, adult cousin living with his parents

they had one child conceived before they were married and before they had figured out anything in life.

He suffers from migraines and has lost many jobs because he wouldn't be able to show up. She suffers from depression and is a high school drop out (GED, dropped out because her parents moved and said she wasn't welcome to move with them).

They were relying on free birth control and now have no source (they live in an affluent Dallas suburb, one where a certain school is called PESH). So, she just had another baby. She begged for medicaid (who covered the delivery) to pay for a tubal, they refused.

She can't get bc pills, condoms are restricted (they seem to run out or something, I didn't get the whole story) and surgery is out since neither of them have health insurance.

Since they live with his parents, they have been able to have their older daughter declared a dependent of his father so she can be on medical insurance and get some much needed dental work (we have very bad teeth genes).

This has been eye-opening for my very conservative, very repug aunt. She's still repug, but I noticed her support was beginning to flag.

Oh, and he applied for SSDI for his migraines, he has documented cases of getting fired for migraines, but he was rejected. And his rejection was lost in the mail so his time to appeal expired before he found out he was rejected.

[kdmorris]

108. Well...

Toys for the kid. Even really poor parents try to get them something to amuse themselves with. Though most of the toys come from Children's Aid or some such place.

For older children (I know you said this was a 5 month old, but he/she will grow up one day, and believe me, this woman isn't getting out of that situation anytime soon):
school supplies, school clothes, shoes, field trips (oh, GOD, field trips were the WORST!! All the other kids get to go, but sorry, honey, we had to get new alternator put in, so you have to stay home today)

General toiletries: Toilet paper, paper towels, shampoo, conditioner, hair brush, laundry detergent, etc. Those things actually do manage to wreck your budget, though I know it might not seem so.

Entertainment: If this woman never gets out of the house, she's going to be committed. Of course, I only allocated about $20 every six months for entertainment (YAY, Let's all go see Pocahontas at the matinee), so it's a very, very small expense, and usually left out of the budget entirely.

That's about all I can think of. You're doing pretty well listing it all out yourself.

[dsc]

174. The kid would get to go on the trip

I have worked in many a school over the years and in all of them there are provisions made to make sure poor students get to go on field trips.

[kdmorris]

181. Yeah, I found that out later

When I started volunteering in the school. By then, I had already kept my oldest and middle daughter home from several field trips. I didn't realize and I was too ashamed to tell them that I just couldn't afford $12. I mean, $12 seemed like such a small amount, yet so unattainable.

Once I quit all my jobs and went on welfare, I found out about the field trips. Plus, then I automatically got free breakfast and lunch for them, which took some of the burden off the food stamps I was getting when I went on welfare.

Of course, they didn't end up staying home from the field trips because I was poor, but because I was ashamed that I was poor.

[dsc]

187. You also had a teacher who didn't know how to approach you on it

Generally elementary teachers are very good about checking up on things like that. I am sorry it happened.

[KaliTracy]

32. a sad and powerful way to point out the problems * and his Administration

just don't see.

I strongly suggest Nickel and Dimed by Barbra Ehrenreich for anyone who thinks this scenerio is "over the top."

I'm probably preaching to the choir, but anyone who doesn't know the book, Barbara went to three different states, with only a car and $100 each time, and tried to "make it" -- never quite did. Her commentary what these jobs do to people is important too.

[Bouncy Ball]

37. Yeah

for anyone who thinks my scenario is over the top, just look at everything I inadverently left OUT of her budget. And I lowballed a few of those figures. Especially the $185 for a car payment. If she has bad credit or no credit, she would probably have a higher payment than that. And no car is NOT an option around here unless you aren't working at all and don't plan on being able to get around.

On edit, I also forgot haircuts. But let's say she has long hair and trims off the dead ends at home and her baby is at least six months away from needing a trim and she just might do that at home, too.

[KaliTracy]

51. we don't often think of the little things that add up to quite a bit.

Sooner or later something will have to give. Some would say "Why doesn't she just get another job?" as if a good-wage, general type job was just there for the asking. Well, they're not. Not at a living wage, they aren't.

Barbara went into her investigation "dropping" her degrees, saying she was a divorcee. At one point she even slept in her car. Housing, bar none, was the hardest thing to get at a decent price. She used foodbanks, sometimes if I'm not mistaken.

[Bouncy Ball]

151. Well I've already got her working two jobs for a total of

59 hours per week.

If she starts work at 7 am, gets off at 4 (one hour unpaid for lunch and she gets off at 3 on Fridays to ensure she doesn't work 40 hours a week, thus qualifying her for job beneifts), and she works at her second job from 6 to 10pm Monday through Friday, I guess she COULD take a job working about 10 extra hours on the weekend (five hours Saturday and five hours Sunday), but then she'd be seeing her child.....almost never.

[DebJ]

56. another one: gets desperate from an emergency. can only get

credit at these rip off places that loan you money until your next paycheck. There is one next to my job. I get sad every payday watching all the poor come by.
To get $100 cash advance, they pay $20...20% interest for a FEW DAYS>

[Hollowkatt]

41. I was there not more than a year ago........

My wonderful grandfather-in-law and his wife decided that they wanted to help his granddaughter and I get a house for us and our 4yr old daughter. We were able to get a good rate and a fantastic house that dosen't need repair at all for 15,000 less than the asking price. We were lucky. Two years ago we were living in a nice neighborhood, but in a dump of a house, unfinished, with unreliable transportation. Our bills were higher than those in the example, our electric was almost $200 USD in the sunmmer, in Michigan. The Gas in the winter for heat was $250 USD easy, cause well ya know the insulation was crap.

IMHOP, ALL workers need to be paid a living wage. Yeah, ALL of them. Index wages to inflation plus 1% and this type of thing should be a horrible memory in just a few years. There is only so much that you can do by yourselves and it gets harder every day.
Bouncy Ball is right, "Jesus Wept."

[Bouncy Ball]

42. Wow

I'm glad to know things got better for you and yours. Here's to them continuing to get better, despite the bush economy.

And I like your idea about wages.

:toast:

[Skidmore]

44. Bouncy, this is such a valuable bit of consideration for

working poor. This is what we don't hear in congress when they pontificate. I think your original essay should be revised to include the contributions of some of the other posters to this thread. Who among the Representatives or Senators who has enough clout could present it as a part of the debate on the economic trainwreck headed our way? Perhaps giving it to Howard Dean to use? This is exactly what has to be said in a very public arena. How many people could hear this and nod, thinking "sounds like my life." What do you all think about the idea of giving our legislators the words to say until they understand what needs to be said? They don't appear to be able to figure it out on their own. Perhaps it is because so many of them are monied. The few, like Kuicinich, who do speak the common language have lived it.

[Bouncy Ball]

120. I TOTALLY agree and I am always wondering

WHY no one ever just spells out what it's like to be part of the working poor in this country.

I will probably take that, take all the suggestions of things I left out, and rewrite this.

I'll repost it once it's done and see if there are any other suggestions to be made. I want it to be as realistic as possible. Unfortunately I know too many people who live this life every day.

[TWiley]

45. Thank God they had elections in Iraq.

We are a wonderful nation.

<This bit of incoherency is intended to simulate the voice of MSM concerning this issue.>

[Bouncy Ball]

121. YOU said it!!!

:-(

[TWiley]

202. You would think that the genuine state of our Nation would be

a news story from time to time. Evidently, it is more important to destroy Iraq for no reason, and then to build it back up.

This is another aspect that is rather disturbing. Bush enriched his family and friends by invading Iraq. Taxpayer dollars were converted into profits as our military prosecutes the bush family interests in the area.

Now for the bad news. I have heard several reports claiming that the reconstruction period could actually be more expensive than the destruction period. We will be providing jobs for an entire foreign nation while the taxpayers who foot the bill wither on the vine.

Bush should be charged with the crime of "larceny by conversion" for his mishandling of our tax money.

The reality of starving American families struggling with minimum wage jobs will spread to even more Americans as the Psychotic actions of our president continue to inflict more damage on all of us.

[The Minus World]

46. Breakdown of a Breakdown

Great thread.

Of course, it deals with real-life scenarios of causality, so I wouldn't expect many Republican lurkers to develop their contemplations on this subject beyond the standard right-wing polemic.

Somehow, this can and will be spun to put Sue at fault for her own abject financial condition. Rather than accepting this story as an indictment of the way our government treats its paycheck-to-paycheck citizens, the right-wing will simply choose the Randian/Darwinian route and label Sue as a victim of her own unusefulness.

The Left makes a critical analysis and says, "Where did we go wrong, and how can we fix this?", and the Right stares at the problem and says, "Losers sink, winners swim."

[Bouncy Ball]

122. Well, Sue is in this situation

because she went to a school in Texas which was ONLY allowed to teach abstinence only sex education. Her parents were poor themselves, and she knew next to nothing (and had a lot of misconceptions about) birth control.

She bought a $3 douche after the first time she had sex because she heard from a girlfriend that would prevent pregnancy.

It didn't work.

So at 17, she had her baby, swearing she would finish high school.

Life as a teenager with a baby going to school AND working at Hardee's Chicken proved to be a bit much, so she quit school, SWEARING she would get her GED.

She didn't.

Now here she is.

[hfojvt]

47. I appreciate the thought

but I am not sure our cause is helped by hyperbolical hypotheticals. I present the simple fact that I have lived, and lived pretty well, in my estimation, on less than minimum wage. Of course, I must be lying, right, because your hypotheticals are far truer than my own personal history.
I have also experienced what a difference it made in my outlook to go from $5.5 an hour to $7.15 an hour. I am all for raising the minimum wage and social programs to end poverty, but I do not buy the story that it is impossible to live on a poverty income. A country boy can survive.

[DebJ]

57. survive...without your teeth, with bones disintegrating from

malnutrition because you fed the kids first, etc etc

They survived famine in Ethiopia, too.

[Vinca]

59. I don't doubt your claim,

but I'm curious about how a person can live well on a minimum wage without a trust fund to back them up. The poster's hypothetical is quite accurate as it applies to low income people in my area, with one exception: rent. It's much higher here. Please share some figures with us so we can learn how to live better on less.

[hfojvt]

91. of course, it depends on what you mean by "living well"

I have little use for phones and cars, and I pay as little for rent as I can. My experience is from the past as well, and it is possible that rents have gone up faster than wages. I actually built up my own trust fund when I was making $5700 a year as a graduate student. Once I had money in the bank, I felt I was living well because when I saw something (other than a car) my question was not "can I afford it?" but "do I want it?"
Then again, this quote is in my collection:
"Every time we teach a working woman to make her wages or her husband's go a little farther we set in motion a force of suction which tends to lower the universal wage...We try to teach people to make the best of their conditions: we should teach them to rebel against these conditions." "A Listener in Babel" Vida Scudder 1903 pp 135-36

[amazona]

237. in other words be a user

"I have little use for phones and cars" because you used your friends as a free chaffeur service and while you were at it you ran up their phone bill. I know the type very well.

Most poor people are not sociopaths and don't have the option of ripping off the people who love them most.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[hfojvt]

250. now how would u be in a position to know that?

Based on your assumption that everyone needs a phone and a car you call me a sociopath? Feel free to talk about the people you have known, but do not make assumptions about people you do not know. Actually I had a phone at my office but I do not remember using it alot. I remember using a pay phone to call my dad and tell him that his uncle had died. I am not even sure that I called collect since I had an AT&T calling card.
It was four blocks to my cousin's apartment, and less than six blocks to the grocery, work, and church, so why would I need a car?
Actually, when I thought about those times further, I have to admit that it was all the free stuff that made that time decent for me. The fact that I could use the pianos in the music practice rooms, and being in the pep band, and having professors and graduate students to talk to, and using the school's computers, and the libraries and the free books. Plus, although teaching two classes and taking three took up almost all of my time, I was hardly in the same position as someone who has to push a broom, or do some other repetetive drudgery, for eight hours with an unpaid half hour lunch and half hour commute. So Bouncy may be right in that my example is not going to be possible for others to replicate, any more than most people can score 780 on the quantitative GRE.
I just do not think that finances are really the heart of the problem, and like Herman Hesse's Siddharta, I laugh at things that other people think are "severe privations" like not having a phone. I think that most people would be better off if they learned to make do with less.

[gaia_gardener]

256. I would not feel comfortable living without a phone with a child.

Emergencies happen. There aren't always working payphones within a reasonable distance and neighbors tend to be away from home/refuse to answer the phone. So what happens when you need to call 911?

It sounds like you lived in a college town. Big difference. And you lived as a student enrolled in a college. Again, big difference. You had a student clinic, you had a support network. Hell, in college, I lived like a queen and made $4.50/hour working about 12 hours/week.

Oh, and by the way, it is poor form to brag about standardized test scores. They really don't mean anything.

[Bouncy Ball]

123. Well I am certainly glad YOU survived.

So I guess it means everyone can, right!

Actually my scenario is not as hypothetical as you think. "Sue" is based on a former student of mine. That is her life now.

Sue is not alone, not by a long shot. I know too many people like her, with not one child but two or three.

How many kids did you raise on less than minimum wage, and where did you live while doing it?

[Auntie Bush]

170. Did you have all the extra expences that come from having a baby?

Write a list of your expences and show how you did it. Betcha can't!

[hfojvt]

196. Of course, with a child, the equation changes

Start with adding an EIC of about $2500 to her income. Then add the fact that she is neither paying state or federal income taxes. Then there are things like LIHEAP, food stamps, TANF (or AFDC in my day), medicaid, WIC, and food pantrys, toys for tots, and so on. I never needed those and never bothered to see if I could get help because I figured that left more money for people who really needed the help.
Along with those extra expenses should come the extra income from a father. If not, I have to feel that she should have shared her affections with a better guy. As long as I am alone, she gets a little less sympathy from me.
And no, I cannot list my expenses from 15 years ago, probably they were just rent and groceries, maybe a used book here and there and a pizza hut pizza once a month or so. Actually I kinda wish I had the numbers on how much money I saved on that $5700 salary. Of course, I saved $440 by the fact that it was FICA tax free, but that was still about $800 less than a full time minimum wage earner made in that year.

[Pithlet]

223. She's a Lucky Ducky, isn't she?

Come on. You know you want to say it. Anyone who says stuff like "She should have shared her affections with a better guy" HAS to buy that kind of thinking.

[ultraist]

244. YA BUDDY!

Or this, "As long as I am alone, she gets a little less sympathy from me."

Somebody is upset they don't have a girlfriend, therefore Sue should be punished and not have our sympathy. hmmmmm......makes ya wonder!

[hfojvt]

249. what makes me wonder

is people who apparently think they can refute an argument merely by shouting "heretic" or "j'accuse".
As far as the substance of what you said, I said nothing about "our" sympathy. I am only sharing "my" perspective. As far as being punished, you may have missed the part where I listed programs which are available to single mothers. Although, to speak to Bouncy's response, I do not know how she is able to work at all since daycare expenses are going to eat up most of her paycheck if she has a pre-schooler. Also, the practical matter is that there is a waiting list for alot of those programs since they are underfunded.
A single man making minimum wage gets an EIC of about $70 and pays income taxes of about $200. A single mom making $8 an hour gets an EIC of about $2100 and pays no income taxes. According to a chart in Newsweek, for a man to be single has the same impact on his health as smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. Apparently a man without a woman is like a fish that got run over by a bicycle. But don't waste any sympathy on people like me. In fact, give me another hour on the pillory and throw some rotten cabbages. They won't get past my wall.

[Bouncy Ball]

228. How exactly is she free from payroll taxes?

And how do you know she gets this toys for tots program, LIHEAP, TANF (she's working, btw), etc?

You are conveniently leaving out the expenses of a child, I noticed.

[gaia_gardener]

257. Technically, she'll get all but the 2 social security portions

back when she does her taxes. But she's still paying them out in the meantime.

You said she probably didn't qualify for medicaid, so she doesn't qualify for WIC or most other gov't programs. She is technically above poverty level so she should just suck it up. Or quit one of her jobs.

[theHandpuppet]

48. What is the minimum wage in other countries...

... like Canada, GB et al? I get the feeling this is just another area where we pitifully trail other industrialized nations.

[achtung_circus]

53. Here,

<http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/minwage.htm>

The comparison can be a difficult one. Income taxes vary from Province to Province, as does sales tax. For example, Alberta sales tax is solely the national Goods and Service Tax (GST) a value added tax. Other provinces have Provincial Sales Tax, Ontario's is 8% as is bc's. Some Provinces have a Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) which collects the GST and the Provincial Sales Tax in one fell swoop.

But we seem to get more back for the taxes we pay. Primary health care is the best known example, although it typically doesn't cover dental, eyewear, prescription drugs.

Factor in the changing value of the Loonie relative to the USD and comparisons become direct suspect.

[loudsue]

77. "But we seem to get more back for the taxes we pay." The U.S. uses our $$

for weapons and corporate welfare. If they'd cut that nonsense out, we would have trillions more to help our fellow citizens.

With the republican war machine in power, we'll continue to contribute our tax dollars so that our corporate installed warmongers can continue to be the baddest boys on the block.

Fortunately, we have sane neighbors to the north who make better decisions for the well-being of their citizens.

Canada looks better every day from where I sit.

:kick::kick::kick:

[KayLaw]

49. Scary

You know what else (this is just one of so many things) scares me is an Amscot commercial they show here. It's about a man whose paycheck ( for some reason) won't last until the next pay period. He goes to Amscot to get an advance and says, Now everything's fine. HIs very pregnant wife sits down next to him and an elderly woman in the background smiles the creepiest grin I've ever seen. No, everything's NOT all right.

[DebJ]

58. Nominated for home page and printed for guy at work who says

"If you make your money work for you, instead of working for your money, everyone can make it" Blech.

[Bouncy Ball]

125. Be sure to add in all the thiings I forgot to put in her budget

like clothes, car maintenance and repair, etc.

[JNelson6563]

64. Like many here

I have been this lady. I also greatly appreciate your thoughtful post.

Julie

[Sgent]

65. Some thoughts

Although I see the point your trying to get at, I have a few comments -- assuming 1 dependent age 3

Medicaid will be available to the child until age 6 and CHIPS later, and to the mother if she becomes pregnant.

First off, gross income = 5.15*60*50 = 15,450
-FICA = 15450*.0725 = 1120.13
-Fed Taxes = 0
+EITC = 2370
+Food Stamps = 3288
+WIC = 1200
+HUD Housing Voucher* 1065

Effective Net Income = 22,253 or $1,854/month

Other benefits (not able to quantify)
Utility bill discount
Health insurance (as mentioned above)
CEAP pays up to 4 utility bills / year

Other possible benefits
Transportation assistance
childcare assistance

*HUD Section 8 voucher -- I couldn't tell if there was a waiting list or not (there is for public housing)

[ultraist]

95. Bush cut HUD, FOUR YEAR WAIT LIST for housing vouchers

Utility assistance is emergency only assistance. Recipients can get it only once or twice in the year IF the money is there. Those are soft money programs and the amount of funding fluctuates and runs out quickly.

No such thing as transportation assistance. What would that be?

No health care for able bodied adults from the government exists. (45 million Americans without health care).

Food stamps are capped at $171 per month per person.

[beyurslf]

104. The wait in Wichita, where I live for HUD housing, is about 2 years.

And if you want more than 2 bedrooms, it is longer.

[Bouncy Ball]

132. CHIPs??? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

CHIPs, you are funny. Yes, the Texas Medicaid website mentions CHIPs. Too bad republican lawmakers in this state have been kicking kids off that very good, very cost effective health care program for the children of the working poor in this state!

A little history: in 2003, Perry (governor) admitted that Texas "FORGOT" to FUND CHIPs. See, the state gets $2 from the federal government for EVERY DOLLAR that the state throws in. Good deal, right?

Well, Texas "forgot!" OOOOPSIE! Oh well. So then they had to kick, oh, several thousand kids off CHIPs.

THEN, republican lawmakers increased the income level you had to be at in order to qualify for CHIPs. Which knocked MORE kids off.

To date, around 350,000 Texas children of low-income WORKING parents have lost CHIPs coverage.

So best of luck to her on getting that!

Section 8? LOOOOONG-ASS waiting list. Long may she wait. I read an article when I was in San Antonio recently that said the average wait, statewide, was 19 months for a Section 8 voucher. Once she gets it (if she does), great. But what about until then?

What transportation assistance? What childcare assistance? Care to share those? I'd be surprised if Texas had anything like that, to be quite honest.

[Scout]

67. kick

[pelagius]

68. This is God's will, right?

<channeling a Repuke>

There's no mention of a father in the picture here, right? You see, this woman is being punished for her immorality. She's obviously a sleep-around whore pushing out little bastards without a thought as how to support them.

</channeling a Repuke>

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

69. How do they do it?

Let's assume that our Mom earned 14,000 per year and has one child. Any taxable income that she has would be wiped out by her Dependent Care Credit -- which is essentially a federal subsidy for her daycare costs.

And even if she had no federal withholding at all on her paycheck, she would still receive a refund of about $3,000 -- from in Earned Income Credit and Additional Child Tax Credit.

She'd also get about $3,000 in Food Stamps and possibly other local assistance (like housing and daycare and transportation and children's' health insurance). Best guess, maybe another $2,000 for these -- and for how let's ignore the cost of her county caseworker, who helps her find and get qualified for her benefits. And the salary for the federal employee who reviews her tax return. And the state official who processes her housing voucher. Let's ignore them for now.

So there's $3,000 in tax credits, another $3,000 in direct assistance, and another $2,000 in subsidies and indirect assistance. That's $8,000 in aide that the taxpayers are being billed for every time Wal-Mart decides to offer a crappy minimum wage job to its employees.

So the next time some Conservative says that we can't afford a "Living Wage" tell them that we're already paying it -- the difference being that we currently paying for a nightmarishly large federal bureaucracy to administer it. So wouldn't it be nice, all you aficionado's of small government, to simply require the private sector to pay a higher wage?

[Bouncy Ball]

133. Very good points

except that I don't know what this transportation assistance and childcare assistance stuff is.

[TahitiNut]

70. Minnie Wages was born on September 15, 1939

She finished high school in 1957, and started working for the Federal Minimum Wage in July 1957. After working full time for minimum wage for 47½ years, she retired in January 2005 at the age of 65 and 4 months - the first month she qualified for "full benefits."

Her monthly benefit this year is $770.00, for an annual income of $9,240.

Since her income last year was $10,300, her OASI benefits replace 89.7% of what she earned working 2,000 hours last year. Even better, though, is the fact she no longer has to pay a payroll tax which cost her $550.88 last year.

Minnie has something to look forward to: She has a good chance of getting paid more than minimum wage on OASI - something she never did for her entire life. If she lives long enough.

Minnie is the corporatist working class ideal.

[jdog]

71. Wonderful post. n/t

[leftofthedial]

76. our country is disgraceful

ou greatness is measured by how we treat the least among us.

We should be ashamed.

[fob]

78. You know how she gets by? The SS each month from her died-way-too-young

husband, and now bush* wants to fuck with that too.

[taught_me_patience]

79. I have to disagree with you calculations

While I agree that minimum wages are pathetically low, your expense calculations are tremendously high. First off, you are not taking into account child support payments that she is likely to receive (being a single mother). So please factor in another $500 in income.

--$500 rent is very high. If she's making minimum wage, she should be in a studio or sharing an apartment. I share a 2 bedroom apartment in Los Angeles (expensive place to live) for $500/mo.
--$80 Electric is way high (I spend $80 for a 2-bedroom for 2 months w/heat and in the most "expensive" electricity in the nation)
--$50 phone is way high (she can get a nice cell phone plan that covers all her needs for $35
--$100/mo car insurance is way way way to high. (she does not need full coverage unless she is on a loan. Even in LA I pay less than $100 for full coverage and would pay $50 for liability)
--$60 in gas sounds about right (why cant she take public transportation)
--$185 car lease is ridiculously high (she can buy a nice running car for $3000-$4000 which comes out to less than $100/mo).

Making outrageous claims about the cost of living completely hurts your argument IMHO. Minimum wage should be raised because even with my calculations, her life would be extremely difficult if not impossible to maintain. Minimum wage, however was never meant to cover the cost of two people (her and her child).

taught.

[GOPisEvil]

83. Child support she is LIKELY to receive?

Not so sure about that. Switch that to MAY receive (if she's lucky).

There are parts of this world with no public transportation either. Amazing, but the suburb I grew up in didn't have bus service to the main city.

The point is that minimum wages are difficult to live on. Despite their intent, a lot of people earn that level of wages in this country.

Let's use the Federal Poverty Income Limit. For 2 people in 2003, that was $995 per month. That was the poverty line in 2003. Even using reduced numbers surely you can see the difficulty in raising a child with that level of income.

[lapislzi]

87. One word in your post really bothered me

"SHOULD"

Who do you think you are, telling someone where she "should" or "shouldn't" live?

The original poster also addressed the car insurance issue. She may have been suckered into a lease agreement because of low payments. Lienholders require you to carry the full pop.

Why can't she take public transportation? Unless you live in a major metro area (read: WAY expensive), the public transportation SUCKS. It is also not free. If I were to use public transport to my job, it would cost more than my car payments and gas combined.

How do you expect her to come up with 3-4K lump sum for a car?

The claims are not outrageous. They are conservative and realistic, and even leave out a few things. Clearly you have never tried this.

[bloom]

88. the father might be in jail

or somewheres else. You are thinking best case scenerio.

$500. rent isn't high. That's about right around here - for a cheap place.

$80. electric - again you're thinking best case scenerio. Utilities are probably cheaper there due to a more temperate climate. Could easily be more than that. A lot of the cheap places aren't insulated much.

And cheap cars are more likely to have more fixing expences.

I don't think the claims are outrageous at all.

A lot of people wouldn't make it without help from somebody.

[BluePatriot]

90. A few comments

In Dallas (plus most of the South) there is no such thing as viable, useful public transportation. You and others are lucky to have systems like that at your disposal! *jealous* There are bus routes that serve the downtown area in Dallas, but you have to have a car to work/live in the cheaper 'burbs (unless you want to live downtown and pay lots extra in rent/groceries!) It's a catch-22. IMHO, though, I think the rent is about right if our hypothetical woman wants to live in a decent-ish area where her car won't get broken into/stolen so she can drive it to work, thus keeping her only source of income secure. (Off topic: At my efficiency apartment in Austin ($560 mo, all bills paid) 4 cars got broken into right before I left. Nobody cared, there was no security, the 40 yr old building was moldy and rotting away, and I never saw my deposit again.) You may be right about the phone and insurance, but electricity in Texas was recently deregulated, so the costs there are going up and/or fluctuating. Not to mention, what she saves in phone/insurance would go to the stuff that got looked over (clothes, diapers) I'm glad you see that it sucks to try and survive on minimum wage, tho. Welcome to DU!

[gaia_gardener]

258. I can attest to the electricity

we do have a larger home (well 1400sqft). We live in far south texas, so we've not run the heater (or the AC even when it was 80 in the house). We've replaced most of the lights with compact fluorescent and I run around turning lights off all the time. Still, our electricity bill was $80. I freaked out, trying to figure out where we spent all that power.

I compared usage to our small house (840sqft) in OK and found that the amount of electricity we used ran about $35 in OK and was about as low as we ever got there. I doubt we'll get it any lower than this and we've got a 7+ month summer coming up that will require some AC.

[murray hill farm]

92. and where does she get $3000 to buy that car?

u gonna loan it to her, because no one else will do it..at any interest..considering her income and expenses. And if she did have a husband who was ordered to pay child support...would she get it each month..forget that! Statistically she has will not get it regularly, if at all.

[ultraist]

96. National average rent for a 1 bdrm is $595

$80 per month is ridicously high for electric? Should she go without heat? What state do you live in? My electric bill is $200 per month.

You MUST have full coverage if you have a car loan and $185 car payment is CHEAP!

Child support that she is LIKELY to recieve? Get a clue. Do a fact check on how well child support is paid.

Your claims are OUTRAGEOUS!

[beyurslf]

105. $80/month for electric and that is the "most expensive in the nation"?

Time to retire that claim. I live in a 1 bedroom apt. and pay about 75-100 a month in electric. And I keep my apt almost uncomfortably cold in the winter and warm in the summer. (Of course, in LA maybe you don't have to worry as much about heating and air conditioning.) In TX, they do.

And part of LA is that? A good friend of mine there pays about 900 for his 2 bedroom place.

[taught_me_patience]

109. I live in woodland hills

rent is 1300 for a two bedroom that I split with a roomate. Woodland hills is a nice suburb of Los Angeles and the rent is quite high.

I was talking about the electric RATE not USAGE. My bill is $80/mo for 2 people. We run the heater approx 50% of days during the winter and 30% of days in the summer. The highest eletrical rate that I've personally seen was $70/month in Hawaii (wtf?!?! no heat or air condition)


taught.

[ultraist]

124. You pay $1300 in rent but claim $500 is really high?

According to HUD the average cost of electric, water and gas for a one bedroom is: $ 146
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:gh7wqfaS3nEJ:www.hudclips.org/sub_nonhud/html/pdfforms/7420g18.pdf+average+cost+of+utilities&hl=en

[taught_me_patience]

161. I pay less than half because I'm sharing

$600 to be exact for my own room and bathroom. Upper-middle class neighborhood in one of the most expensive (housing) parts of the country (socal).


taught.

[ultraist]

172. My point was that even though her rent is below the nat'l average

You thought that was extremely high while you pay $1300. Your rent is nearly 3x the national average. My mortgage payment is a lot more than your rent, but we are talking about national averages to put this in a realistic perspective.

National Average Rent for a 1 bdrm: $595
National Average Utilities (HUD): $146

[kdmorris]

106. I've been in this woman's situation

Except I had 3 children (they were 6 months old, 2 years old and 4 years old when I left my abusive ex-husband)

Child support??? ROFL yeah, try to get child support sometime. If the father doesn't want to pay up, he'll just quit his job. There are so many creative ways for them to get out of it (I never saw a dime of child support EVER, and my children are now 13, 14 and 17).

$500 for rent is high? NO, it isn't! Unless you want to haul your children over to the slums. I got a two bedroom apartment for $750 a month. This was in Southern Maryland, not LA. As for "should be sharing", there was never ANY chance that I would "share" an apartment or house with anyone. When you have a child, you have to protect them and moving them in with a perfect stranger is not exactly a stellar way to do it. Imagine the media coverage when your child is kidnapped by your roommate. (What KIND of mother would move in with...").

$80 electric is WAY high? Again, that's crap. Perhaps in LA where you don't have to use heat, but I don't see any problem with $80 in electric except that it may be too low. My electric bill at the time was usually about $140 (budget billing plan, of course)(We live in Florida now. Our electric bill is currently $259 a month. We do not currently have our air conditioner on, as it is not too warm. In the summer, our electric bill goes up to about $330 a month. Granted this is a bigger house, and we have teenagers, but I don't find $80 to be unrealistic at all).

$50 in phone bill may be a little high, but quite frankly, you are only talking about $15 here.

I WISH $100 in auto insurance was too high. I won't even tell you what we pay for THAT. Mainly because it screws up the numbers since we currently have a teenage driver.

Some places do not have public transportation. When I was in this situation, we did not (Waldorf, MD, circa 1992 -1996). I really truly wished that we did. As far as payments for cars, that was totally beyond my reach. You can probably skip that altogether. The more likely scenario is that she got a car on it's last leg for $200 and has to spend money just to try to keep it on the road each month (Most of the time, I just hoped that engine wouldn't blow before I got paid.)

Quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Bouncy Ball had it closer to the truth, although even with those numbers, Bouncy's scenario is actually much happier than my life was then. I didn't even have a TV, much less cable. ALL my children's clothes and shoes came from Children's Aid Society. I couldn't even afford to go to the thrift store for that.

At one point, I tried to get out of that mess. I had to work three jobs and still couldn't really get ahead. I was spending all my money on child care and didn't even see my children sometimes for days at a time. Then, I had a complete breakdown (total exhaustion)and ended up going on welfare. Yes, that's right, I was a "Welfare Queen". The only difference to having those crappy jobs and being on welfare is that I got to spend time with my children when I was on welfare. I sure as HELL wasn't getting ahead!!! And I had time to go to school when I was on welfare, so that I could eventually get out of that situation.

Of course, we don't have welfare anymore, so this hypothetical woman is basically screwed.

/rant off

[taught_me_patience]

131. I'm sorry to hear about your situation

and I'm glad you are able to make the most of it. Sorry to hear that you were unable to collect child support, but not all men are like that. My father paid child support for me for 17 years to my mother, though it was a major financial burden on him.

I don't dispute the facts that life is very difficult. Minimum wage was never intended to support a famliy of 2,3, or 4 people. Secondly, you are confusing the difference between needs (as what is necessary for life) and wants (not necessary for survival). This argument must be based on needs and not wants or the antagonist will never belive your argument.

you state that "there was never ANY chance that I would 'share' an apartment or house with anyone". Again this is a "want" because living alone is not necessary for life. For example, she could live with relatives.

you state that "We do not currently have our air conditioner on, as it is not too warm. In the summer, our electric bill goes up to about $330 a month." Once again air conditioning is DEFINATELY not necessary for life. Heck... I don't use airconditioning (I live in Los Angeles where it is really hot) to save a couple of bucks.



I agree with you on the transportation issue. The fact that there are areas of the country that do not have public transportation is a TRAVESTY and further proof that our tax dollars are being miss allocated(ie. war in iraq).

you state, "I WISH $100 in auto insurance was too high. I won't even tell you what we pay for THAT. Mainly because it screws up the numbers since we currently have a teenage driver." Once again your CHOICE to let your teenager drive and definately not a necessity for life.

Actually I do feel as if I really do know what I'm talking about. This is a hypothetical argument which the antagonist will not belive unless the figures are CONSERVATIVE and NECESSARY for life. I also agree that the figures are way low and there are a lot more costs in life that were not stated in the original argument. I think minimum wage should be in the $6.00 to $6.50 area.


taught.

[tkmorris]

140. I am wondering

exactly how much time we'd get in jail if we tried to make it through a South Florida summer with a baby in an un-air conditioned house.

I am also wondering just how a judge would respond if you informed him/her that having air conditioning here was a "want" in such a situation.

[kdmorris]

143. Oh, I really don't think I'm at all confused.

I realize that not all men are like my ex-husband. For example, my husband is not. But YOU seem to be assuming that all men are like your father. I'm not disputing the fact that men DO pay child support. I'm simply stating that you can't just assume that they will, as that is not always the case.

NO, living alone is NOT a want. It's a matter of protection for your children. (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/23/State/11_year_old_boy_reuni.shtml)Living with relatives MAY work for some people, but you are again assuming that everyone has relatives to live with. I did not. Many poor people do not. Having shelter is a NEED and you usually have to pay for it.

I stated that we do not have our air conditioner on so that you would realize that the $259 is NOT due to air conditioning. In the summer, we use the air conditioner BECAUSE WE CAN. I make enough money now to be able to afford such luxuries. If I was still in the same situation, I would not be able to use the air conditioner and I WOULD STILL PAY $259 A MONTH.

I stated "I WISH $100 in auto insurance was too high. I won't even tell you what we pay for THAT. Mainly because it screws up the numbers since we currently have a teenage driver." because I wished to indicate that I NO LONGER CAN TELL what would be proper automobile insurance, ergo it screws up the numbers. I was addressing your points one by one and wished to indicate that I would not argue with you on that point, as I pay too much for auto insurance to be able to legitimately make a case one way or another. But I don't think that $100 a month is too high for my area.

Yes, I CHOOSE to let my daughter drive. And she pays for her portion of the insurance from her income. Incidentally JUST HER PORTION of the shared auto insurance is $100 a month, and she doesn't even own a car.

If you agree with the original assumption that minimum wage is dismal, may I ask why you are arguing your point from only your life experience? You state " also agree that the figures are way low and there are a lot more costs in life that were not stated in the original argument. I think minimum wage should be in the $6.00 to $6.50 area.", then go on to state why my post and the original post were incorrect. How can you both agree and disagree?

Not all men pay child support, not all people have relatives to help them, not everyone fits into your little niche of people who can just "pull themselves up by their boot straps".

And, as a final note, I didn't "make the most of it". I survived IN SPITE OF IT.

[Tsiyu]

243. Some people are best ignored

the qualifier "even though it was a major financial burden on him" sort of tells me that perhaps this person adores and worships the sacrifices a MAN made, but that a woman's sacrifices are no big deal.

Very, very sad.

Some people have no clue. They live in a dream world. No consequences. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Child support is a joke. Many women ( and men) live this way with their children and these cruel motherfuckers come up with beans to count.

But one must ask:

Why would "good" Christian people pay their workers wages that they KNOW by the stats are below poverty wages?

A man, considered the "breadwinner" is expected to earn a decent wage even in a blue collar profession. Why not a woman raising a family?

And if employers are absolved of all duty to pay a fair living wage, why do we try to placate and powder the asses of businesess that create these low-wage jobs? They should be levied a few bucks every time they pay someone such low wages, the person must depend on the government to survive.

[Bouncy Ball]

153. So, um, basically according to your last paragraph

you totally agree with my original post.

The numbers I cited were VERY conservative (even unrealistic, as many here have pointed out) and VERY necessary for life.

Without a phone, how does a potential employer call her for an interview, for instance?

Without heat or air conditioning (NOT an option in Texas), how does she and the baby survive decently (without becoming sick or worse)?

So basically you agree.

[taught_me_patience]

158. I do agree

i just think that in a hypothetical argument (especially if you want to convince a skeptic) you must be as conservative as possible to thwart any attempt to pick holes in the argument.

taught.

[Bouncy Ball]

164. And I WAS as conservative as possible. I used realistic

figures from THIS area, and again, I should point out that I left OUT many items from her budget.

Which means she really can't make it. I guess she could just leave the five month old in his crib alone all day and save that $400 a month?

[gaia_gardener]

259. So those people who die every year from heat prostration

didn't die because they didn't have AC? What did cause their deaths then?

Honey, I don't know about LA, but I know about 95F and 95% humidity. You have to have AC. It takes very little time for a building to heat up (even with windows open to prevailing winds, shaded against summer sun, etc. I tried all the tricks and still ended up with a house that was over 100F). People die every year because they are living without AC.

Even without running AC, hanging clothes on the line, compact fluorescents, energy star appliances, I never could get my electric bill down below $30/month, and those were months we spent most of our time visiting family and being gone.

[Bouncy Ball]

119. Ahem. Let's just take your calculations one by one, shall we?

First of all, why do you assume she gets child support? She won't get child support unless the father PAYS IT. Do you know how many mothers DON'T get child support?

Secondly, $495 rent is NOT high, it is exceedingly low. That is for a one bedroom apartment under 600 square feet. I looked up the rates in THIS AREA for one bedroom apartments before writing that post and averaged a lot of them together. I did NOT average in the high end, luxury apartments, as she wouldn't even qualify for such apartments. Your one anecdote does not top my looking at several apartment complexes in this area and averaging, sorry.

Third, $ 80 electric is a bit low for this area. You might have seen above where I talked about how I averaged that out across the whole year. She has all electric--electric ac and electric heat. I own a house that is almost 2000 square feet in Dallas and our electric bill averages out to about $120 a month and that's LOW (because we don't crank the ac).

Fourth, $ 50 phone is for basic phone service, monthly.

$ 100 a month for car insurance is NOT too high for Texas. Do some research. Amazing that it is less than that in LA. Just amazing, if what you are saying is true. Car insurance is VERY high here. I lowballed that figure--remember she has a car on lease, fairly new, so she is paying for full insurance.

She can't take public transportation, buddy, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE. Did you even bother to read the rest of this thread? Living in LA, you'd think you'd understand the concept of NO public transport. Oh, no, wait, you at least have a bus system there. Most of the burbs around here don't even have bus systems. Zilch. Nada. No car, no way. Unless she wants to take a $40 cab ride everywhere she goes.

Now where does she get $3000-4000 in a lump sum? The money tree in her backyard?

Unfortunately, my figures are rather low, instead of high, and as you'll see going through this thread, I didn't think of a LOT of things that should be in her budget.

So go ahead and add $500 a month to her budget for child support. It's still eaten up by all the things I left out.

[taught_me_patience]

149. I 100% agree

the items you left out would eat her salary + child support and then some. I think you way underestimated the cost of food.

I still disagree on the rent because she can rent a studio or a room.

The no public transportation issue there in TX is REALLY REALLY horrible.

taught.

[Bouncy Ball]

154. Your idea that she can rent a studio or a room in someone's home

is a bit unrealistic, I think.

I scanned the ads for rooms for rent, studios for rent, etc in the Dallas Morning News this morning, just out of curiosity.

SLIM pickins lemme tell you. Studios are VERY VERY hard to come by, as I said, and they usually don't allow people with a child to rent them.

If you rent someone's room in their house, and you have a child, you are definitely taking a chance.

[Corgigal]

136. Red nation stats

electric for a home/1400ft size home,last month- 215 dollars
daughters car payment, car one year old- 300 dollars
insurance for daughters car- 115 dollars monthly
phone, local and unlimited long distance- 71.00 dollars
gas- 70 bucks

No bus service here in SC. Those original stat's are very well on target if not a bit cheap considering adding a child.

[ikojo]

150. About child support.....a woman in this situation may not have named

the father on the birth cert so there may not be any child support (although I think many states are requiring unwed mothers to name the bio father on the birth cert so that they can go after them for child support). States tend to be very aggressive about pursuing birth fathers especially if the mother is on ANY type of welfare support.

Also, child support is indexed according to income. Many low-income men or even wealthy men, who are opposed to paying child support, do all they can to shield their income from the courts. They get paid in cash or under the table, anything but via a payroll department that must document all wages earned. If there isn't much income then there isn't much child support.

My mom was divorced from my dad in the late 60s. He was faithful about paying child support as long as the payment went through the circuit court system (he'd send the check to the court and the circuit clerk would send it to my mom...I got very adept at recognizing that envelope in the mail!)

He moved to Florida when I was 12 and stopped sending the check through the circuit court system. My mom was lucky to get child support every other month or so. Most of the time he would send her a check for a few thousand dollars twice a year, just at the time our lights and gas were being turned off.

He had it trust me he was not poor. His new family lived well while his bio children went hungry and at without heat at times. I recall sleeping in my coat during parts of some winters because my mom couldn't afford to pay the gas bill.

[Bouncy Ball]

156. Sleeping under coats, I had totally forgotten about that.

Wow. My mother got divorced in 1976, when we were 5 and 3. She moved into a government subsidized apartment (MUCH easier to get back then), but just as now, no bus lines or any other public transport. We were lucky enough to live right next to a daycare that had a sliding fee scale. She worked in downtown Dallas, in the Mercantile building and would drive her clunker of a car to a paid parking lot in Dallas, pay to park, then go to her bank teller job, getting $ 2.50 an hour.

We ate a lot of beans. Kool-Aid was considered a luxury. All our furniture was from relatives or garage sales, when she could afford it.

She decided what she had to do was marry a rich guy. I remember her telling us that. We would have our heat cut off and sleep under old coats. I can remember lying there, looking at my breath. And that was in Texas. Fortunately it doesn't get too cold here. The summers were far worse.

She couldn't afford makeup, so when she had a date, she'd go to the makeup counters in department stores and "try" all their samples and thus get gussied up for the date.

She succeeded, married a guy who made plenty. Who was also an alcoholic.

[jmm]

177. These are tremendously low for my area

I pay $725 for my studio which is pretty excellent deal for where I live. I already pay $128 a month for the communter rail pass I need to get to work and if I moved to any place cheaper there wouldn't be any public transportation to get me to work. My brother lives a couple of streets away from me and he pays about $100 a month in car insurance for basic coverage. I only have a cell phone and sometimes I need it for work. I pay nearly $50 a month and have not been able to find anything cheaper to cover my needs.

[Pooka Fey]

192. $500 a month for rent is below average. Seems you got a good deal on your

rental in Woodland Hills, I used to live there in 14 years ago, and I was paying $400 for one room with shared bathroom in a 3BR2B house.

San Francisco and New York City rents make L.A. look like the small time, though. Probably Chicago, too.

[Speed8098]

197. You're way way way off base

These statements are ludicris at best.

-$500 rent is very high. If she's making minimum wage, she should be in a studio or sharing an apartment. I share a 2 bedroom apartment in Los Angeles (expensive place to live) for $500/mo.
--$80 Electric is way high (I spend $80 for a 2-bedroom for 2 months w/heat and in the most "expensive" electricity in the nation)
--$50 phone is way high (she can get a nice cell phone plan that covers all her needs for $35
--$100/mo car insurance is way way way to high. (she does not need full coverage unless she is on a loan. Even in LA I pay less than $100 for full coverage and would pay $50 for liability)
--$60 in gas sounds about right (why cant she take public transportation)
--$185 car lease is ridiculously high (she can buy a nice running car for $3000-$4000 which comes out to less than $100/mo).

Let's take these one at a time.

$500.00 rent is very high

500 Peconic St.
Colony Park Apartment Homes were created for those who know what they want out of life!
Ronkonkoma, NY
11779
$969 - $1529

That's only one out of hundreds. This one was the cheapest listed. That's not to say you can't get something cheaper, but you CANNOT find any kind of apartment here for less than $700.00

--$80 Electric is way high (I spend $80 for a 2-bedroom for 2 months w/heat and in the most "expensive" electricity in the nation)
Holy crap, are you freaking kidding me? I own a 635sq ft home, and my electric bill is never less than $250.00 per month in the winter(electric heat) BTW, we have L.I.P.A.. Google it. WE have the highest utilities in the nation, and that's a fact.

--$100/mo car insurance is way way way to high. (she does not need full coverage unless she is on a loan. Even in LA I pay less than $100 for full coverage and would pay $50 for liability)

That's delusional in 2005

--$60 in gas sounds about right (why cant she take public transportation)
$2.09 per gallon. Sure, $60.00 sounds right. NOT!

--$185 car lease is ridiculously high (she can buy a nice running car for $3000-$4000 which comes out to less than $100/mo).

You're assuming this person is credit worthy, as was Bouncy. If you earn minimum wage, creditors are not knocking on your door with offers. Which leads us to the question, how does this person afford a car without credit, or with extremely high interest credit?

Making outrageous claims about the cost of living completely hurts your argument IMHO.

Not as much as your outrageous minimizing of the costs associated with living.

Last, but not least,

First off, you are not taking into account child support payments that she is likely to receive (being a single mother). So please factor in another $500 in income.

I guess you never heard the term "Deadbeat"

Go take off your rose colored glasses and see reality.

:spank:

[Zhade]

219. I call BULLSHIT on your post. You're not being truthful.

I live in Los Angeles. Your rental figure is a DREAM, friend. I paid $450 a month for a studio apartment in seedy Hollywood 6 years ago. There is no way your rent figures are accurate, unless you don't actually live in L.A. like you claim.

[loudsue]

80. These days, I can't imagine $100 could buy food for a MONTH

even for a mother who is nursing. Food has gotten outrageously expensive, even as there are fewer and fewer safeguards for what is being done to the food we buy/import.

I don't know about other areas of the country, but ONE TOMATO at the supermarket this last week was $3.00, and it tasted like cardboard. Groceries have gone sky high, and I hardly see anything about it in the figures for inflation.

What's interesting is that the PEOPLE know what is going on, but the media and the legislature seem to be drinking this kool-aid that makes them some sort of pod people, where they live in a different universe.

That is one reason that I will NEVER believe george bush won the election fair and square, even if I hadn't seen all the evidence of fraud with my own eyes. I just keep thinking..."what must desperately poor people think these days if they don't have a computer, where they can go online and see that there are millions of us out here who also KNOW how bad things are"? Those people must feel like they're even more invisible than the rest of us feel.

The lack of honest reporting is PREVENTING people in this country from feeling like a community....Preventing us from feeling like we're a country of people who are all pulling together for our own well-being, for mutual survival and success.

Feeling like a community is what creates HONEST patriotism, real "team spirit", rather than the forced patriotism we're being exposed to these days....the republican brand of "patriotism for patriotism's sake".

O8) God, PLEASE give us our country back! Help us to banish the fraudulent voting machines!! O8)


:kick::kick::kick:

[taught_me_patience]

81. i agree

the under-reporting of inflation in groceries is disgusting. I estimate that my food prices have risen 10% in the last couple of years.


taught.

[Bouncy Ball]

127. The $100 a month figure for groceries IS low

and it is even lower when you consider I rolled her toiletry expenses into it, too (body soap, dish soap, laundry soap, toilet paper, toothpaste, deoderant, shampoo, OTC meds, etc). But some of those things don't need to be purchased each month and I am assuming coupons, store brands and sales.

Obviously she doesn't eat much.

And to think a couple of people on this thread thought my numbers were HIGH.

Yeah, right.

[Pooka Fey]

86. 4 month Average of my monthly grocery bills - no junk food: $213.00

Single woman, clipping coupons, pouring through the Weds. grocery flyers, stocking up on items only when they are on sale - i.e. when chicken breasts are $1.49 lb I buy a boatload and freeze them. I track these expenditures like a hawk. Add grooming supplies and it's $245 month.

I do this because I am a freelance musician so I'm in the same income group as the min. wage earner, less hours. I started being a grocery freak because I noticed without doing all this stuff my food bills were up around $350.00 month. No more Whole Foods shopping for me - except for organic produce! That I'll splurge for!

[ultraist]

97. We spend $700 per month on groceries

For a family of four. This does not include eatting out. We pay sales tax on food in my state. I think sales tax on food should end in all states. Some states don't have it, like FL.

[Patiod]

101. Pennsylvania is considering adding a food tax

So that property taxes can be lowered

[ultraist]

126. Property taxes are really high in PA

They are not so bad in NC but they are raising them again.

[kdmorris]

128. Wow

Talk about pushing more taxes on the poor while giving tax relief to the rich.

Not that only rich people buy houses, but that would put more of the tax burden on people who can only afford to buy food, not houses.

[Bouncy Ball]

138. Texas doesn't have sales tax on food items.

Only if they are hot, single prepared food items (like from the deli).

[gaia_gardener]

260. Texas doesn't

and it does make a difference. I just moved from a city with combined sales tax on food of 8.375%. I'm loving grocery shopping in Texas. Right now, the prices are pretty comparable and no sales tax.

[Bouncy Ball]

129. And you don't have a child, right?

So take out the organic stuff you do still buy and say, maybe $200 or $190 a month, right?

So I'm off as much as $90 in the red on her grocery budget.

[Pooka Fey]

190. No child. I'm guessing organics cost me an extra $13 per month

because I go for the sales in organics just like I do for everything. $200 per month has to be the rock bottom, penny pinching, coupon clipping, drinking a maximum of two beers per week, no junk food, no packaged prepared foods, rarely any frozen dinners, no grooming items included, grocery budget for a single woman.

$100. a month would be possible maybe if you are eating only rice and ramen. And then you'd have to add in the medical costs of malnutrition.

On edit - Also no sales tax on food in my state.

[Nobody]

215. Rice and ramen - that brings back memories

of a time when that was all I could afford. I'd had to replace my furnace which was still being paid for when I got laid off from my IT job. Couldn't find another for two years when I gave up on IT and went into another field.

So I lived on rice, ramen, vitamins ($7 per bottle), eggs and flour dumplings in broth made from boullion. This was supplemented by family and friends when they'd invite me to their places to have dinner with them. They knew my situation and knew I'd helped them out when they were in the same situation.

[Pooka Fey]

194. Sorry Bouncy Ball - Just a little plug for ORGANICS :-)

This was in my e-mail today, and I had to share this on the thread; organic produce costs slightly more, but it tastes better so you actually WANT to eat your veggies, plus you are supporting small farmers, plus organic farming benefits the environment unlike factory farming which destroys topsoil and dumps millions of pounds of chemicals into our soil and water. Sorry, I get passionate about this stuff. :-):-):-)

From the "Organic Consumers Organization" newsletter:
"The second annual State of Science Review has found that cancer-fighting antioxidant levels are, on average, 30% higher in organic produce vs. conventionally grown fruits and vegetables. The cause for this, say scientists, is that antioxidant chemicals are created within a plant grown organically or in the wild when the plant triggers internal defense mechanisms. These beneficial mechanisms are rarely triggered in plants that are raised with synthetic fertilizers and pesticides"

[Bouncy Ball]

229. Hey I adore organics, it's all we'll eat around here.

Also, organic dairy and meats. Nothing else. We get grossed out by non-organic milk. Blech.

[gaia_gardener]

261. Can I add a plug for farmers' markets?

You can often find food that is grown organically (but not certified organic) for prices less than grocery stores. And almost 100% of the money goes straight to the farmer (usually the market will take either a percentage or a fee). Plus, you're buying local.

[KissMeKate]

89. great crunch the numbers story.

lets never forget those people struggling with "heat or eat?" issues.

[Dark]

100. God's just punishing her for having the audacity to be born poor. n/t

[Gaben]

103. To put your unrealistic ideas into perspective.

In our state almost all women in this situation get WIC certificates to make sure there is core food in the house, milk, bread, peanut butter, fruit juice etc. Also with an infant or two children in the house she would be elidgible for up to $600 a month worht of food stamps. No core groceries are taxed here either, milk, bread, cereal, frozen juices, vegetables etc, only candies, cokes, and other ill-nutritious extravagances.

Also she could get plenty of help getting jobs, job training, computer training, appropriate work clothes, and even discount housing that is about 10 times better then HUD housing (and a woman in that situation would be elidgible for HUD housing at a far lower rent then you quoted) and such from various churches and charities in the area. Some are even building entire complexes for single mothers in this situation.

So while the laziest person on earth may remain stuck in the situation you describe, anyone genuinely interested in helping their children, let alone themselves, has ample aid available in that situation.

Oh where do I live you ask? Dallas, Texas. How do I know of these programs? My mom availed herself of them when we were in a worse situation (she made about $4 an hour as a church secretary, they fall below minumum wage specs, and she wanted to keep out 4 bedroom 1700sw ft hosue in an upper middle class neighborhood) and I now manage an Albtertson's while taking business classes at community college, she is now working for a much larger ministry making a decent wage and going to law school completely on government subsidised loans, she graduates in '06.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence, or even just the will to do more then survive can outlive your estimates in a heartbeat.

[JimmyJazz]

107. Gaben,

- the only people on welfare are those who are too stupid or lazy to do anything about it?

btw - you could try being a little more friendly - some would consider your subject line to be a bit, shall we say, "harsh"

[ultraist]

130. Your info is incorrect Gaben, four posts

There are caps on foodstamps, a family of two does NOT get $600 per mo. It's $171 per person limit. Look it up.

In order to qualify for WIC, you have to be at or below the poverty line. Working mothers making minimum wage don't qualify for this. Look it up.

Your statement, Gaben, "So while the laziest person on earth may remain stuck in the situation you describe, anyone genuinely interested in helping their children, let alone themselves, has ample aid available in that situation." is WRONG.

What aid? Look it up.

What a loaded and false claim, a total PANTLOAD. There is NOT "ample help available." How REPUKE like.

Apparently you failed to do a FACT check before you parroted the right wing talking points.

[JimmyJazz]

135. In one post his mom is a lawyer and in another she doesn't graduate

until '06 - call me crazy, but:

[ultraist]

152. LMAO!!! good catch

[Bouncy Ball]

134. Well if you are so sure of these things and you know they are

still around, NAME the programs.

Go ahead, name them.

Entire apartment complexes for working poor single mothers? WOW!! Where are THOSE????

Discount housing that is 10 times better than HUD???? WHERE? Seriously, give me the NAMES of these programs.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

180. about those government subsidised loans

just thought you should know, Bush plans to get rid of those as well:

http://www.studlife.com/news/2005/02/09/News/Bush-To.Eliminate.Perkins.Loans-856852.shtml

warning - this link is atrocious right now, for some reason the HTML is all screwed up. the story is in there, though. it's from my college paper, http://www.studlife.com/

[Change has come]

191. It must have been rough living in this

4 bedroom 1700sw ft hosue in your upper middle class neighborhood. Sounds like Uncle Sam has been pretty good to Mama and her intelligent brood. :toast:

[Spiffarino]

209. 1700 sq ft house?? Sounds like somebody had equity

...which is something poor people generally don't have. I do believe "Mr. Bootstraps" may be leaving a whole lot of information out.

:eyes:

[Spiffarino]

208. Please read post number 203

...beeotch.

[anarchy1999]

221. Not a good way to start here at DU!

We also live here in Dallas, BB's figures are not unrealistic, way low balled IMHO, (been there and lived it), you Gaben, are the unrealistic one.

The programs you mention are not that easily attainable anymore. Lucky for you, they were much more available to your mother, many years ago!

[beyurslf]

102. I would say she has a clunker of a car with no payment but it is hardly

reliable. She has no car insurance and just "risks" it and the ticket she would get for it.
Of course, the brake light on the passenger side went out and she didn't know it. Her tags had just expired the last week but she didn't get paid for another week when she was planning on getting the tag. When she got pulled over, she was warned for the brake light and ticketed for the expired tag, but she also got a ticket for no insurance--a $200 fine.
Needless to say she could barely afford buying the one month of insurance she had to get so that she could get her tag up to date. She also bought a brake light for a couple bucks. After doing this, she didn't have the money to pay the other ticket (no insurance) she got. She doesn't go to the court date because she can't miss work or she will be fired. A warrant is issued for her arrest for her failure to comply with the ticket and her license suspended, not that she could really do anything about it. She continues to drive to work because she has no other choice.
A few months later, the clunker breaks down, causing a fender bender in the middle of the intersection. She still has no insurance, of course. She is going to lose her job because she was already late twice last week when the babysitter wasn't ready. They told her no more warnings. A cop arrives and discovers she has an active warrant and arrests her. She is also fined for driving on a suspended license ($500), for "causing" the wreck, and for having no insurance (another $200). (This ignores her civil liablility in the wreck.)

The baby goes into emergency protective custody.

This all started because she had a brake light out, remember?

Being poor in America is a scary thing.

[Bouncy Ball]

137. My God, you must have lived that.

Or knew someone who did.

You just described EXACTLY what happened to my friend Margaret about five years ago. She called me in a panic one day asking me to come bail her out of jail.

For those exact reasons. Her son was 14 months old at the time and the only reason she kept her job is her boss took pity on her.

She's doing a tad bit better now, job-wise, but the father of her son just took off, no one knows where he is, and she hasn't seen child support in seven months.

[Bouncy Ball]

139. I'm very glad a few people who didn't believe the story I wrote chimed in.

Because they helped illustrate for me just what one of the problems are in getting people to understand this whole situation:

every person who weighed in on this thread disbelieving the story I wrote ASSUMED there are ample programs in place to help this woman. A few also assumed she could get more in things like food stamps, etc than she can.

Thanks for letting me see what at least part of the problem is.

We need to let people know that, while some of the programs to help people like "Sue" sound good, the devil is in the details.

Such as:

1. the extraordinarily long wait for a Section 8 housing voucher (bush cut HUD funds, too).

2. there are limits to what you can get in Food Stamps and WIC.

3. while people name all these generic programs to help (transportation assistance, childcare assistance), I don't see any specific names for these programs and I don't know of any transportation assistance program here in Texas, and childcare assistance programs went away after Clinton (not that they were ever very prevalent here OR easy to get).

4. I find it hard to believe ANYONE would think the figures I listed were HIGH but apparently a few did. I find it interesting that they ignored all the items I failed to include in her budget. Just read through this thread for a good idea of the costs I left out, which are NOT luxuries, but necessities (clothing, anyone?).

At least now I know there are republicans out there thinking "Oh they're ok, there's all those PROGRAMS for them!"

I would laugh. But it seems more appropriate to cry.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

155. Looks like she might not get WIC, must show medically based risk

FYI: Gaben, I did look up federal guidelines for the foodstamp program and info on HUD. Your Repuke talking points aren't going to fly around here buddy.

TX WIC guidelines

Pregnant women
Women who are breastfeeding a baby under 1 year of age
Women who have had a baby in the past six months
Parents, step-parents, guardians, and foster parents of infants and children under the age of 5 can apply for their children

Households with incomes at or below 185 percent of the federal poverty income level are eligible. WIC determines income based on gross income. WIC counts all of the members of a household, related or unrelated. WIC counts an unborn baby as a household member.

Be at nutritional risk. WIC clients receive an initial health and diet screening at a WIC clinic to determine nutritional risk. WIC uses two main categories of nutritional risk: (1) medically-based risks such as a history of poor pregnancy outcome, underweight status, or iron-deficiency anemia, and (2) diet-based risks such as poor eating habits that can lead to poor nutritional and health status. Clients will be counseled at WIC about these risks and the outcome influenced by nutrition education and nutritious foods provided by WIC.

[Bouncy Ball]

160. I doubt she's at 185% below the federal poverty income level

for a family of two.

She's not nursing, as I explained above, because she is gone 59 hours a week, virtually impossible, unless she buys or rents a breast pump. Yeah, she's really got the money for that!

So, I'm suspecting she won't qualify for WIC. If she does, it would take about $80 off her budget (in other words: help out with about $80 worth--formula, milk, cheese, baby rice cereal, etc.).

[Bouncy Ball]

157. HAH!

Yes, I very much HAVE lived that life. Both as a child and as an adult.

So care to explain why you have such contradictory information about your mother in two different threads?

[anarchy1999]

222. One thing missing BB, all the hours required to spend any time at

all seeking all this "assistance".

[Bouncy Ball]

230. Good catch, anarchy, that's right.

These programs, when she can get access to them, usually require quite a bit of paperwork and standing in line when she should be at work, and she doesn't have the type of job that gives her paid time off.

Of course, if her employer would just pay her a living wage, she wouldn't have to do those things.

It'll make you crazy to think about it too long.

[Cobalt Violet]

144. She's butt naked, too. No money for clothing.

[Bouncy Ball]

165. Well, yeah and so is her baby.

I think I originally left that item out because I was going to do a yearly budget, too, since clothing isn't something most of us buy on a monthly basis.

But I forgot. She gets her clothes from the Goodwill store, thrift stores, and garage sales.

But you know, when we were really broke several years back, I started shopping at a Goodwill store for our clothes to stretch the money more and I was shocked at how expensive it was for second-hand clothing (some of it a bit ratty). Target and Wal-Mart are so cheap now, I could just about buy new for the same price.

Pretty sad, I thought.

[Cobalt Violet]

198. Used clothing is expensive.

Wal-Mart and Target are creeping up to.

I just had to buy a new wardrobe for my new job as and I found the best deals were at Kohl's and Filene's and stores in that range's 75% and 60% off racks. They had lots of modern well made clothing. I have to dress this way on my new job.


But still it is all so unaffordable for working poor.

[Tinoire]

148. Terrific thread Bouncy Ball!

It's unfortunate that not everyone gets it. Thanks for putting it all so clearly. Book-marked & nominated...

[ultraist]

159. It's sad that people refuse to accept that 35.9 MILLION live in poverty

What's even more disturbing is that some people are so ignorant and self righteous that they think that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence could easily escape poverty.

Evil, selfish bastards! :evilfrown:

[Bouncy Ball]

162. My mother found herself in VERY bad conditions

after she was divorced in 1976. She's a brilliant woman, but poverty, worrying about how your two kids are going to eat, being a broken radiator away from losing your job, has a way of tearing you down.

She married a man who made a nice amount of money, who was also a horrible alcoholic and still is to this day. She led a dog's life.

[Bouncy Ball]

163. Thanks, Tinoire

what I can't understand is WHY repukes refuse to see the CONNECTEDNESS of it all.

IT AFFECTS ALL OF US.

[Eawyn]

166. anyone with enough bad luck can become truly destitute

and I for one like to see something there to come between me and homelessness and starvation

[Bouncy Ball]

168. You know what's funny?

Well not ha-ha funny, but sad funny, is how incredibly close most middle class people are to poverty and don't even realize it.

For instance, how much do most middle class people have in savings? I'm not talking 401Ks, I mean savings. It's recommended that you have three to six months' income in savings at all times. Who has that?

What about consumer debt? If a middle class person lost their job and couldn't pay their bills, they'd eventually have to declare bankruptcy.

What about your home? How soon before you wouldn't be able to pay your mortgage payment? (The "you" I am using is in a general sense.)

We're lucky--we've knocked down our debt to pretty low levels (and keep knocking it down, I am almost debt-free now, and my husband is getting there) and we have three months' income in savings.

But even we are not immune. And we know it.

[Eawyn]

171. you think of all the things that can happen

like a car crash, that leaves you without family and paralyzed; or you end up with your sister or your daughter's kids, or you find our you have MS and you can't walk or think very well any more.....for all of those things, without the social net, like social security, and food stamps, and welfare, and all of the rest....people are doomed.

And then, when you are a worker, and you know how easily you could go bust, you don't complain when you are mistreated at your company....who can afford health insurance on their own?

[philosophie_en_rose]

193. Freepers: Blame the poor, Idolize the rich.

So many people are living paycheck to paycheck, but the interesting facet of the problem is how much the poor are blamed for the precarious financial situations that many of us experience.

If a freeper family is living paycheck to paycheck, it's because of people on public benefits who are somehow stealing from the freepers. They give a free pass to the corporations that are too cheap to pay a living wage.

The freeps admire the rich, because they have power over the mythical "welfare queens."

[Lindacooks]

169. Have you submitted this to a newspaper?

You should.

[Bouncy Ball]

173. Thanks, and no I haven't.

It amazes me anyone even needs to have it spelled out how hard it is to get by on minimum wage jobs (even TWO of them, as this woman has).

I really need to re-write it and account for the factors I forgot. Doing that now.

[Tinoire]

175. I agree with Linda. You really need to.

((great idea Linda!))

Might help a few people who just don't get it.

[ultraist]

176. You might want to use national averages

or state averages on rent and utilities
Nat'l average on one bdrm: $595
Nat'l average utilities (HUD): $146

Or, you could put her rent below average to make a point.

In any case, excellent topic and OP!

[Bouncy Ball]

182. Thanks, that's a very good idea ultraist

you have had some fantastic contributions to this thread and I want to thank you.

I have re-written this (for DU, not necessarily for a paper or for politicians) and have posted it as part II.

I will re-write as a column and send to a few papers and a few members of congress. Also my state legislature.

I'll use national averages, those are better. But I really wanted to highlight the plight of those who do not have public transportation. Those car costs eat up a LOT of her budget.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

178. just wanted to add one thing about housing

GREAT post - I nominated it for the homepage or greatest page or whatever the heck it is now.

Just wanted to throw one thing in about housing, since several people suggested Sue get a roommate. Around here at least, landlords have strange rules about such things (may be laws or just conventions, I don't know). You are NOT allowed to share any apartment smaller than a two-bedroom with someone who isn't in your immediate family. And you can only do that if you're one single person. Sue and her child couldn't split anything smaller than a THREE-bedroom with someone else. And, as others have mentioned, you run into similar problems trying to rent an efficiency with a child. (When my sister tried to move in with us last year due to problems at home, they wouldn't allow it unless I was her legal guardian. She was 18 and legal to live on her own, but she wasn't considered part of my "family," even though she IS part of my immediate family.)

Also, just to get an apartment in the first place, you usually have to have a minimum income level of at least 2.5 to 3 times the rent. The only reason my husband and I were able to move into an apartment at all was because I got my mom to sign forms saying she gave us money each month (when she doesn't and couldn't afford to). We always paid our rent, but we damn sure didn't make 3 times that amount in a month. This was for an incredibly cheap apt. ($385/mo) in a neighborhood so bad there were high speed police chases through the complex's parking lot.

Why didn't we just live with my mom? She's already got herself, my two siblings, my little brother's girlfriend 'cause her mom kicked her out, and my grandpa all living in one two-bedroom house and rather noticeably violating the occupancy permit.

The simple solutions some posters here seem to think are always at reach (family help, gov't aid, etc.) are NOT as easy to come by as you'd think.

[Bouncy Ball]

183. Your last sentence is correct:

"simple" solutions are not always so simple.

Around here, you do have a load of people living in very small apartments, but they are not on the lease, and they do it on the down low.

For instance, Mexican immigrants usually have one or two of them rent a one bedroom apartment and then 8 to 10 live in the apartment (sleeping all over the floor), contributing a small amount each to the rent. Otherwise, there's no way they could make it.

I would hesitate to have a young mother with a baby enter into such a situation, though.

[jmm]

185. And then there are credit checks

When I was 19 I got a Sears card to save money on a purchase. I immediately paid it off in full but months later I realized they had signed me up for life insurance. Because I hadn't been paying it, I was getting late fees and penalty fees. After a long fight I was able to get them to cancel the charges. About the same time I signed a one year cell phone contract with AT&T. I had major billing problems with them and it was only during the last four months of my contract that they got it right and I didn't have to contest my bill.

Years later went I was trying to get my first apartment I had problems. After asking one reality why they said it was because they considered Sears a major credit card and my credit report still showed months of non-payment on that bill. Also because of the cell phone problems it looked like I didn't pay utilities. So I got to go through more drama to clear my credit just to be able to get a place without a co-signer.

[ultraist]

245. Good point! Those laws vary from state to state.

There are occupancy limits and additional limits on how many unrelated people can live in one unit regardless of the size of the unit.

[Ms. Clio]

184. And no pets...I know it's a minor thing, but it would break my heart

or worse, to have a beloved pet I couldn't afford to feed or provide (very expensive) veterinary care for.

[Bouncy Ball]

186. Nope, absolutely NO room in her budget for pets.

Besides, her apartment complex won't allow pets.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

200. Just a reply to keep from scrolling back to the top and keep this kicked.

Well done, BB.

[Nobody]

201. Just one question for all the bootstrap types

This is actually a response to those posters who seem to think that if you're poor, you're lazy. This is a bit long and I rant in parts, but I really am tired of all the contempt heaped on people who are poor and working and desperately trying to keep off welfare.

These are people who are trying to become taxpayers.

Galen said, "So while the laziest person on earth may remain stuck in the situation you describe, anyone genuinely interested in helping their children, let alone themselves, has ample aid available in that situation"

The "ample aid" described has already been refuted by more informed posters than I.

Laziest person on earth? Pray tell me how anyone who is "lazy" can work two or more jobs AND try to raise a child without going on welfare or giving the kid up for adoption.

How can someone work to exhaustion and be "lazy"? What about people who don't work at all, who know that they never have to work at all, who have inheritances supporting a grand lifestyle? Are they lazy? They're just as much of a deadbeat as the stereotypical "welfare queen" but they don't get the contempt of society heaped on them.

My cousin for instance is very much a deadbeat. Never once held a job, paid or unpaid. Lives with her parents. Turns 40 next year. Yes I said 40. Aunt and uncle are in their 70s and supporting this cousin. No welfare is involved, no subsistance living, no barely making subsistance if you skip lunch or breakfast or both, no having to choose between heat and food (as I did one winter), no trying to live on ramen noodles so you an have SOME heat so your pipes don't freeze. No cutting way way down on all other expenses so you don't lose your house (with a mortgage that is WAY CHEAPER than living in an efficiency)

And by the way I was unemployed, trying unsuccessfully to get back in the IT biz as jobs even now are still being leeched away, and putting in 30+ hours a week additional volunteer hours for liberal candidates and causes to help them out and to keep in practice. Interviewers don't like gaps on your resume. Volunteer work filled those gaps nicely.

Cousin dearest has never volunteered for anyone for a second.

Not to mention that every poor person who IS keeping their heads above water, even just barely, like Sue, is WAY MORE QUALIFIED to try to balance the budget than our oaf of an oval office occupant. Anyone who has lived hand to mouth like Sue has had a ton of experience stretcing money that isn't there and yet still being able to make a go of it.

My deadbeat cousin who has lived on a gravy train for an entire lifetime does not have these skills.

Other skills poor people have in abundance:

Scrounge: the ability to find something that someone has tossed out and make it useful. You'll be amnazed at how many couches and chairs get picked up before the garbage truck comes by.

Iron Chef: using whatever you happen to have in the house for meals because the grocery money is gone and payday isn't for another week and you're out of most basic items. Not just one meal. All of them. For a week. And no repeats because you use something up and there's none left.

Hyper Awareness: sleeping lightly because you live in a bad section of town and even though you can tune out the gunshots, you can't afford a dog or the apartment owners won't let you have one and the locks are less than reliable. Yo have a baseball bat within easy reach for just that reason. And you know how to use it.

Adrenaline Based Health and Stamina: Knowing that you CAN NOT GET SICK. Ever. No matter what. You can't coordinate a day off between the two or three jobs so every day you work, and you slog your way through work if you do pick up something from another similarly situated co-worker or maybe even from someone making real money and who does have sick time. But the company encourages Typhoid Mary-ism, so here is your benefitted employee coming in with a fever of 102 spreading all those germs around to the low paid employees and temps without benefits.

Because I was unemployed for a couple years I was lazy and worthy of contempt and my cousin who has never worked a single day isn't? Who's the deadbeat here?

[Spiffarino]

203. Great addition to this post

Jeez, you described the life I lived in my early twenties.

Married a woman with a small child

Worked 14-16 hours a day cleaning offices and businesses

Lived in a horrible part of town (people shot/stabbed/robbed all the time)

Drove a beater that I had to repair myself with whatever I had available

No health insurance for myself, my spouse, or my child

Worked while sick/injured - once with double pneumonia, once after a car wreck that left me with more than 30 stitches in my scalp and mouth

I'm not going to mince words here because I have lived the life and I have earned it: Gaben, you are either very lucky, or you are a liar.

[Nobody]

206. Thanks. You do realize I left a lot out

Like the time my car got broken into while parked in the driveway and the phone crime report line was busy, so I went driving around to find a cop. I finally found one buy as soon as I told him where the break-in took place, he lost interest very fast.

I do realize that murders and rapes take precedence over theft and B and E but a little consideration goes a long way to fostering good will from the public.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nobody]

216. The ones who had their careers outsourced

I'm one of the lucky ones, let me tell you. I used to be in IT and I could NOT FOR THE LIFE OF ME with a stellar resume (two interviewers told me that my qualifications were impressive) get a job in my field. How when there aren't any jobs?

My parents told me of a neighbor who lost his IT job and had to stock shelves at Target when his unemployment ran out.

You're forgetting about the loads of adults who had their entire industry yanked out from under them. Sure they can retrain, but while retraining, pray tell what they're going to live on in the meantime? And don't tell me they can juggle two jobs AND take classes AND study. When, pray tell?

And since you're replying to my post, I'll tell you that I was using examples from my own life, so don't tell me my examples are crappy and unrealistic.

NOBODY has ever lived like that. And I'm Nobody.

[Spiffarino]

218. Much depends on what part of the country you live in

I grew up in Southen California (LA area) where it would have been impossible to live on minimum wage without A LOT of help. Now that I live in NC, I see people who live on small paychecks all the time. They barely get by, but they manage because the cost of living in rural NC is much, much lower.

The overarching point here is that minimum wage is insufficient. It may be OK if you can live cheaply, but you can't make it on 5.15 an hour in many parts of the country without substantial assistance, governmental or otherwise.

[kdmorris]

220. The scenario is NOT unrealistic.

Man, I'm going to scream. It's amazing how these threads can attract so many people whose sole contribution is "Nuh uh".

My daughter works at IHOP (same sort of thing as Waffle House, but Pancakes, instead). She makes 5.50 an hour. She and one other girl are the ONLY teenagers there. My daughter does it to pay her car insurance and save up for a car. She will still get food, etc, from us and doesn't have to worry about her $5.50 an hour doing much else except buying a car right now.

But the rest of the people there are ADULTS. Most of them are women (in fact, she hasn't' yet mentioned a man working there). All of them have children. Some of them work there as a second job, for some this is their ONLY job. But my daughter tells me that the tips there really are minimal. People are cheap and tips on a $12 meal aren't much.

I'm so sick of hearing that "Bouncy should have made it more realistic, because this really hurts our credibility". You know what?? It IS realistic. VERY VERY realistic. And I don't think that many people realize just how close to this reality they are. I'm much luckier (LUCKIER, not more intelligent, less lazy, or anything else) LUCKIER than people like Nobody. I work in IT now. And so far, I've managed to keep my job. My management makes no secret of the fact that they are trying to send the job I do to India, but so far, they haven't found a company that can do it cheaper than we do. When I lose my job, that WILL BE IT. There are no other IT jobs here. The 100 other people that my company laid off more than a year ago weren't able to find jobs in the IT field.

I am aware that my life right now is a house of cards. As soon as something becomes cheaper, my company will lay me off. Period. So we've prepared as much as possible, we have almost no consumer debt, but we do have a mortgage.

Your assertion that this is not realistic hurts YOUR credibility. But I'm just screaming into the wind now.

[Starlight]

226. Even people who earn more than minimum are in this situation.

A single parent with children needs to make a lot more than minimum wage to budget even minimal living expenses. I've been there. I know what I'm talking about. :(

Plus, many (most?) low wage jobs are less than 40 hours and have few, if any, benefits. Many have variable hours so employees don't even know for sure how much they'll earn from week to week. :(

[kdmorris]

239. Very true.

I've been there, too. There was a period of time when I had to juggle three minimum wage part time jobs to make it and that still didn't pay. And I did that when the economy was good and things were much cheaper. Minimum wage at the time (12 years ago) was $4.85. 12 years have gone by and minimum wage has only risen 30 CENTS? Yet the price of a gallon of milk has gone up a DOLLAR.

I'm not sure what the minimum wage needs to be to have minimal living expenses covered. Things are so expensive these days I have no idea how anyone manages to make it on $10 a hour. (Before all hell breaks loose, I really don't want to hear about how it can be done. I'm just saying I don't know how someone with children makes it on $10 an hour without help)

[Bouncy Ball]

234. I love the way they are always so faux-concerned about "our"

credibility. Like they even belong on DU.

[kdmorris]

238. Hear hear!!

Like my husband says, I shouldn't play with the trolls :D

[ultraist]

246. It's very true, poor people are so stigmatized

[Tsiyu]

204. Thanks for these threads on minimum wage

You never know who is reading here at DU.

Let's hope some formerly ignorant employers are having their eyes opened to the reality of their cruel wage scales.

Bouncy B, you have just exposed the lives of millions - how they struggle and juggle and work their asses off just to survive.

"Good" people don't do this to their "neighbors."

[Bouncy Ball]

235. I'm absolutely floored that there are actually people

out there who DON'T know people live like this.

I guess I say that as someone who teaches their kids all the time (the working poor), so to me, it's pretty damn obvious.

I had a kid whose grandma had to sell her plasma to buy him eyeglasses.

Also, I lived this way for a time as a kid and was pretty broke for several years as an adult.

[ernstbass]

205. Clinton really let me down on this issue

I thought he would promote a living wage but very little attention was given to it.

[Spiffarino]

210. He let a lot of people down on minimum wage

...which is why I believe Clinton and the DLC have been bad for the Democratic party on the whole. Their "triangulation" method is often at odds with our core Democratic values.

[Bouncy Ball]

231. Me, too, sadly.

:-(

The next Democratic president we have BETTER get on the ball on this and get Congress on it and make it a HIGH priority or I will be VERY upset. It's LONG overdue.

[anarchy1999]

217. Awesome post, Bouncy!

Could possibly be one of your best ever!
S

[Bouncy Ball]

232. Aw, shucks.

Thank you. :hug:

[Pithlet]

224. Great post.

Too many people are incapable of being empathetic with others. I've never been in that situation, thank God. Your post really drives home the problems that people face. It's time we had a living wage in this country.

[charles_nys]

227. But ......

Since Sue lives in Texas "the right to fire state" Her boss (a repug bushco supporter) decides why he should pay minimum wage when he doesn't have to under the bushco admin. and so he hires an illegal immigrant under the table for $2.00 an hour and so on Friday evening after Sue finished training the new girl, her boss informs her she is no longer needed and there isn't anything she can do about.

[Bouncy Ball]

233. That's a very real possibility, too.

But she also does a job in which it is required to know English, so he can't do that in this case.

[Catchawave]

240. "What is a Living Wage?"

Good article:

http://missourifamilies.org/features/financearticles/lvngwage.htm

[Catchawave]

241. Employment Policies Institute-Not a friend of "Sue"

The Employment Policies Institute is one of several front groups created by Berman & Co., a Washington, DC public affairs firm owned by Rick Berman, who lobbies for the restaurant, hotel, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. EPI, registered as a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization, has has been widely quoted in news stories regarding minimum wage issues, and although a few of those stories have correctly described it as a "think tank financed by business," most stories fail to provide any identification that would enable readers to identify the vested interests behind its pronouncements. Instead, it is usually described exactly the way it describes itself, as a "non-profit research organization dedicated to studying public policy issues surrounding employment growth" that "focuses on issues that affect entry-level employment." In reality, EPI's mission is to keep the minimum wage low so Berman's clients can continue to pay their workers as little as possible.

EPI also owns the internet domain names to MinimumWage.com (http://www.minimumwage.com) and LivingWage.com (http://www.livingwage.com), a website that attempts to portray the idea of a living wage for workers as some kind of insidious conspiracy. "Living wage activists want nothing less than a national living wage," it warns (as though there is something wrong with paying employees enough that they can afford to eat and pay rent).

More info at:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Employment_Policies_Institute

[Bouncy Ball]

252. Yikes, good information.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there are actually organized groups out there who are working AGAINST raising the minimum wage, should I?

Still, it's incredibly sad. What does everyone HAVE against the working poor? What did they ever do to anyone? What is this horrible thing that's going to happen if they actually make enough money to support their families without going begging for food stamps? (Which are being cut, TOO!!!)

[bloom]

242. Child Support

I was talking with someone who knows about this stuff and he said - if you had a situation with two app. minimum wage earners - the dad would owe around $35 a week if he were the one paying ($30 if the child stayed with him a night a week).

Around here 75% - 85% give or take pay eventually - about 50% on time.



Of course that is assuming the father is known, can be found, has any kind of job, isn't in jail, etc.


On edit: I meant to say - around here. States vary. (And it varies within each state, also).

[gaia_gardener]

263. And it will usually take quite a few months to get that started

unless you can afford to pay an attorney or get lucky enough to have legal services take your case.

Most people end up going through a welfare agency to collect child support. This will take at least a year for them to collect the info, find the father, go to court, file the garnishment papers (after they get a judgment), collect the garnishment. And that's if he stays in the same place with the same employer and the employer cooperates.

[Ladyhawk]

247. My SSI Disability is $805 a month.

You know, it's not fair that Sue has to work two jobs to make more money than I get. At the same time, I get upset that people who are disabled don't get a living wage.

I'm not looking forward to this summer when my energy bill will skyrocket to over $100 a month. I may not be able to make ends meet. Even now, it's barely working. It's the 13th and I have $215 in my account and owe $60 to Helping Hands. I cannot even keep my apartment clean by myself because I'm in a lot of pain. Some days are worse than others, but lately, I've had one migraine after another due to herniated discs in my neck.

So, I have to pay someone to help me with my basic needs.

$215 - $60 = $155 that must last me until the end of the month. There are fifteen days left in the month and I must drive to UC Davis for an MRI. Gas will cost--what?--twenty bucks. I also have to drive to Fresno to give up one of my birds for adoption. That's another $20. That leaves me $115 to survive on.

Is that enough?

Every month I feel a lot of stress as I manage a tight, fixed budget. :(

[Kamikaze]

248. After reading this thread, I realize how lucky I am.

I'm far better off than I think I am. For starters, I'm 21 and I live in Illinois, so I'm automatically entitled to a $6.50 minimum wage, which is what I make. But, I am also lucky enough to be delivering food, and I make about $25 a night in tips, working about 6.5 hours 3-4 nights a week. All my tips are mine to keep, and there's no why I'm letting Uncle Sam know about that source of income. My restaurant is also very lienent with food, so I can eat practically anything I want there for free. So, I simply survive on pop, bananas, ramen, grilled cheese and PB&J sandwiches on the days I'm not working. This is less than $20 a week of food, thankfully. I'm stingy as hell with toiletries, so you can bet I don't spend much money in that department.

What all this means is that I can afford to rent a 2 bedroom apartment for $885 a month with my brother, which we split down the middle. Our only utility bill is electric, which did not exceed $100 in January. The average temperature inside our apartment is usually between 65-70 degrees, and the heat doesn't need to be turned on at all when it is warmer than 32 degrees outside. My remaining bills are my Internet, cell phone, and credit card (limit is only $300, thankfully). No health or dental insurance anymore, but I'm young.

The lucky part comes in when I take account of what I'm not paying for. My mother still pays my brother's and my car insurance. She gladly helps out with my college expenses since I'm (for the most part) surviving independently now. I shudder to think of my life without her. Needless to say, I probably wouldn't be able to afford or have the time to go to school. My car could break down, effectively destroying my livelihood.

I'm essentially trying to do a few things. Stay healthy, pick up more hours at work, knock my general eds out at my community college as quickly as I can, and maybe most important, abstain from sex. A few orgasms at this point in my life is not at all worth the risk of disease or getting a girl pregnant.

So, I completely sympathize with everyone here who has struggled to make ends meet. Why am I seemingly blessed while others suffer? It's something I don't have an answer to. I just hope everyone else can hang in there. Now, more than ever, is the time to get politically active. If our country doesn't change its ways soon, the middle class will not survive.

[flying_monkeys]

251. Great post, and sadly accurate enough.

Kicking this for the dinner crowd...

[VALibby]

253. How sadly, sadly true...

I've been a fortunate American that hasn't had to live on minimum wage. But I can't understand how we can ignore all the struggling Americans. We call ourselves the "best" country in the world...#1? When we forget so many of our own?

Thanks Bouncy Ball for putting this out there.

[Kitka]

254. thank you for posting this. nt

[bdot]

262. You know...

If she didn't have the kid then that would have helped quite a bit.
Quit having kids when you can't afford them!

[Bouncy Ball]

267. Quit having kids, plural?

You will note she has ONE child.

One.

Not two or three, but ONE.

And she went to schools in Texas that preach abstinence only, like your King and Savior bush told them to.

THAT'S why she ended up pregnant at 18. No information, no access to birth control, but hey a friend of hers told her if she douched right after, she'd keep from getting pregnant.

THAT didn't work. We don't live in the Dark Ages. It's the 21st century. People have sex. They always have, they always will.

Knowledge is power. IF they had the knowledge and the access, there would be fewer unintended pregnancies.

And even WITH birth control, you DO know they aren't always 100% right?

So why don't you take your judgmental ass on out of here? You add NOTHING contructive to this conversation.

[geniph]

264. Around here, it'd be a hundred times worse

(here being Seattle - one of the highest housing costs in the nation)

More affluent folks will always ask puzzledly, "well, if the cost of living is so high, why doesn't she move?" People, get real. Moving costs MONEY if you have any stuff at all, and if you don't have credit, good luck finding anyone who'll rent to you, even a slumlord. But the big thing is that one has to live within some reasonable distance of one's workplace, or else the transportation costs and time will kill you.

The situation here in Seattle - even a studio apartment is going to run you about $690 a month. If you work in the downtown core, you'll probably be able to use public transportation and skip the auto-related costs, but it's still going to cost you about $2.50/day to get to and from one job (monthly passes are available at reduced rates to those who have the time to apply for them - which generally doesn't include a harassed single parent working multiple jobs). Our electric rates are a bit lower than national average, but $60/month would definitely be lowballing it. If she were to move out to one of the cheaper suburbs, she might save $150/month in rent, but it'd cost her an additional $50/month minimum in bus fare - and that's assuming she still was in an area served by public transportation. It'd also cost her a couple more hours a day in commuting time, time she could be working at her second job. People are always saying poor folks should live close to where they work to save on transportation costs. OK, then you pay the additional in housing costs.

Food's expensive here, too, as is gasoline.

A woman in this situation often gets not one red cent of child support (my own mother was left with six small children and never got a nickel, not one), because she's often single in the first place because the guy was abusive or a total bum. So she's either hiding from him - which means she doesn't dare try to collect the child support, lest he come kill her and the child - or he's got no income. So he gets collared on a deadbeat dad rap and goes to jail for non-support. Guess what? He's not contributing to her net worth from jail, either. I know more women than I can easily count who have been in just that position.

There's often some public support for someone in this position, but do you take off work to sit all day at the WIC office, hoping the overstressed and understaffed folks working there that day will have time to do everyone's paperwork and get you your staples? Most of the offices you have to go to to file for state assistance are Monday-Friday, during the hours you work, and you don't get time off, and you've already been warned that if you miss another day, you're fired, so when precisely are you supposed to talk to someone about what benefits you could possibly collect?

The baby gets an ear infection. Not only do you have to miss work, because your neighbor won't take care of her when she's sick, but you have to go to an emergency room and sit there for 6 hours with your screaming, hurting baby - and then the bills come, and the collectors come, and maybe they garnish your pitiful wages. Think that's a worst-case scenario? Jesus, I WISH.

No other industrialized nation's going to have that last scenario happen. What's so sickly ironic is how many people protest against "socialized" medicine because "there's long waits for medical care!" Um, sat in the emergency room of a county hospital anytime recently? Unless you're in cardiac failure or have obviously severed an artery, you're going to be there for a very long time.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

268. Quite right. This is a picture of the average minimum wage worker.

Sue is clearly struggling, pressed beyond measure. I'm sure she works hard. She has too much self-respect to go on welfare, and she does her best. She doesn't cheat on her taxes. She doesn't mess around. She does want she can. For me as a Christian, the Christian response is to support policies that will help Sue a get better wage, and ultimately a better job. Then we work on health care, and child care, and other benefits. While doing these things, we ensure that we preserve the entrepreneurial system that will one day allow her (and her children) to reach the American dream. We ensure that we have a strong education system, so that her children won't have to go through what she went through. We build for the future.

Keep in mind, that all of this doesn't have to come from the government, but the government must play a role. Conservatives will call this socialism, but there has got to be a middle ground between the welfare state and the jungle. Many conservatives, who are professing Christians, not only support the trickle-down, reverse Robin Hood scheme, but they think it's the will of God. Much like Jim Wallis says, we need to take the real Christian messages to the people, and declare that the sum total of moral values, is not simply being against abortion and gay marriage.

This sermon has ended.

[gaia_gardener]

269. As a liberal christian I am disgusted

at the attitudes I see displayed by people professing to be christians. "If you can't afford health insurance then work harder" etc. Gee, it seems to me christ spent a lot of time healing the sick and talking about feeding the poor, not telling them to work harder.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

270. Me too. I don't know how those who profess Christ,

yet have almost a law of the jungle attitude towards people, can square the attitide with the Scripture. I just don't get it.