White guys can't jump! Blacks are better athletes! Racist comments?

[trumad]

I think the generalization of a race in this manner is flat out racist. I guarantee the folks who made up the title that "White men can't jump" were indeed white. Were they poking fun at White men or were they using a generalization from their societal upbringing.

Jimmy the Greek was fired from his CBS sports gig for commenting that Blacks are better athletes because the slave owners would breed them to be bigger and stronger. The Greek said that the Slave owners would get the biggest Black man and the biggest Black women together to breed bigger and stronger Blacks.

I think that a lot of folks in my generation, (40 and up) have preconceived notion about blacks that were perpetrated by our racists parents, Grandparents, etc...hence comments like Jimmy the Greeks.

Is it true that Blacks jump higher than whites?

For years up until the recent future, white men have held the world record in the High Jump. The current record holder for a woman is a white Russian. (not the drink) SO...no, they really don't jump higher.

The point is that when we generalize a race of people in a manner like the example above we are insulting those human beings. MHOP

[d_b]

1. Not only can blacks jump higher,

but once you go black...

[donheld]

43. The darker the berry

The sweeeter the juice!

[devilgrrl]

2. No only are Blacks better athletes...

they're smarter too. :-P

[d_b]

9. That too

[Lone Pawn]

23. Disregarding standardized test scores,

average GPAs, college graduations per admissions ratios, and every other concievable measure of such, you're undoubtedly correct.

Come on, now. How would it be if I would say "Not only are Whites more attractive, they're smarter, too." I'd be banned in half a second. Neither race is 'more intelligent.'

[devilgrrl]

42. You're right... no race is more intelligent that one another.

However, if people are going to throw out that "blacks are better athletes" BS, I'll play up their IQ's because it pisses racist assholes off. :shrug:

[jdj]

89. Is the slaveowner thing really a viable theory??

I haven't seen any documented proof of this, only speculation by people (public figures,I mean) who strike me as racist anyway.

There are so many factors to this. I would think that racist whites during and after slavery would be most challenged by the biggest strongest males, rather than the old or very young, and this might make the bigger men targets. The persecution of slaves was so arbitrary, many were hung or maimed for insubordination, many were castrated.

I just don't buy this theory. Also, a larger person has to eat more to maintain their weight, and slaves were fed just enough to keep them working, so it seems a larger person would weaken sooner and be more vulnerable to persecution by the overseers.

I just seems like some sick racist white attempt at subtle ownership of black athletic achievement, "see we even made you what you are today." If anyone has a link where research has been done on this I'd appreciate it, but without any evidence I think it is just perverted white pride.

[libertypirate]

3. Hey check out my post...

It is not about changing perceptions it's about building them... See how they do it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3093490&mesg_id=3093490

[KurtNYC]

4. Racism technically is

institutionalized methods of keeping a certain race down. So I think this is more along the lines of prejudice.

I get creeped out when people say in a sort of conspiratorial way, "hey you know that (name of group) have/do not have (trait or ability)" They say this shit like they are imparting knowledge to you. They are so frickin proud of these fairly useless generalizations. It insults the race alright - the HUMAN race.

[Syrinx]

7. racism

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

[ultraist]

24. Institutionalized racism is one form of racism

Racism that occurs in social interactions is not institutionalized. For example, calling someone a racial slur or committing a hate crime is racism but not institutionalized racism.

Opposed to the bias in the judicial system, that is built into the laws, which is a form of institutional racism.

Sometimes it's tricky, discerning if it's institutionalized or not though. It can be very insidious.

[wug37]

5. I can't jump

and I'm white!

[CitySky]

6. and their men are snappier dressers?

ok, ok, all kidding aside: i agree that the types of comments you describe are racist. large white people can get together and bear large, white children. no big deal.

but don't you think it's generally ignored -- we're squeamish, we don't want to think about it, maybe -- that the sexual enslavement of many black women was indeed a part of this country's history, stamped into the U.S. gene pool? i.e.: it's evident in that African-American people come in many shades, some conspicuously lighter than the folks in most of sub-saharan Africa whence came their ancestors. that's a whole 'nuther type of 'breeding' that was going on, and we just don't like to talk about it. more serious and troubling, imo, than the bogus inference made re athletes.

[jaysunb]

8. Trumad, Trumad

You must be truly bored today....what a crazy thread !

Sure, I could've out jumped you a few years ago, but I never considered it to be a big deal. Guys like you could always out think me most of the time, so it was kinda equal.

But now that neither of us can jump further than off one stair step, there are young white guys winning the 400 meters at the Olympic games and old Black guys like me hanging out in cyberspace with brainy folks like yourself.

Seems we've come pretty much full circle...wouldn't you say ? :evilgrin:

[trumad]

12. Man..we need to go have some drinks together

I'm still pretty good at that..;-)

[jaysunb]

14. Ha Ha !

now there's a sport where we're all equal !! :toast:

Lifting beer mugs is a sport isn't it !!??

[trumad]

25. Dude, you should see my forearm....

Notice I said forearm not arms.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Ha... I can vouch for that!

:toast:

[trumad]

35. Wanna arm wrestle.

BTW: Maybe next week?

[Misunderestimator]

38. Sure...

um... maybe not the arm wrestling... I find it's unfair since my arms are so long... distribution of weight and all :)

but sure on the other... PM me.

[jaysunb]

66. can I come along

I promise not to get drunk and tell unfunny stories !!

[sui generis]

10. here's what I think:

There are physiological differences between us, probably the least of which is the variation in our outward physical appearance. As an example the Vaxgen drug, BiDil is a drug designed to restore low or depleted nitric oxide levels to the blood to treat or prevent cases of congestive heart failure specifically tailored to some of those same subtle biochemical differences.

However, when most people on both sides of the fence talk about "differences" we do it competitively, or rather, in a way that attempts to establish "superiority" one way or another. In the regard that black men are supposed to have penises so large they must throw them over their shoulder and burp them, anyone who has ever been in a locker room can tell you that we're all pretty much alike down there and the exceptions that do exist don't obey any racial stereotypes.

Are there differences in bone density and lipid absorption? Are there differences in genetics that timing of gene expression that have other impacts? Are they related to skin color or to the tendency of people of a skin color to marry other people of the same skin color?

It's not about superiority - it's about common sense. I think the dancing thing is cultural and not racial, but for the most part it's true on a per capita basis. Slight differences in skeletal structure and muscle fiber ratios can give one athlete an advantage over another, all other things being equal.

You are right; if we can abandon the ideas of our ancestors that relate these differences to a judgement of superiority, inferiority, or culture it leaves us free to recognize that there are some differences some times that have a statistical trend, for whatever reason, but it's not valid to depend on them or to use them as a stereotype for any reason.

[papau]

15. Well said :-)

:-)

[AndyTiedye]

40. Dancing Might Be a Very Significant Cultural Factor

I think the dancing thing is cultural and not racial

I am sure that it is. We should examine WHY the attitudes towards
dancing are so different, and what are the consequences:

A culture that embraces dancing will produce people
who are more attuned with their bodies
than one that abhors dancing and persecutes it.

Dancing is very good exercise, and there is nothing like it for improving coordination.

Everyone can participate, not only however many jocks it takes
to make up some kind of "team".

[K-W]

45. There's really no reason to think the athletics arent cultural as well.

The right answer, is we dont yet know and speculation is just that.

[papau]

11. LOL - -tall is better than short - and you get that from the DNA - and for

most folks in the past the DNA was similar around the village.

So it was a lot of kids from village X are hard to beat at game Y.

The skin color is a fact of village life - most folks in village X are color Y.

Now similar skin color pops up in a few places places. Indeed a bit more than similar athletic ability pops up in many places.

I know of no correlation between skin color and anything other than location of likely roots.

And even there when folks tried to find the Black desease like Sickle Cell Anemia - the found they had to rename the desease on occasion because white folk got the same desease - so you have "Mediterranean Anemia" and deseases "some Greeks get"... LOL

YOU totally correct to blame your parents for anything, including your skin color, but there is no reason to blame your skin color for anything..

Check out the movie Watermelon Man - when he changes into a black skinned person, the first thing he does is look down and in his underpants - and says "Damn - another urban myth!"

[trumad]

13. Great post...and fffing funny

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I'm Not A Geneticist Or Epidemiologist

but it's a fact that certain groups of people are more predisposed to certain diseases...


For instance Ashkenazi Jews are more predisposed to colon cancer;

http://coloncancer.about.com/od/ethnicityandsocialstatus/a/AshkenJewsAndCC.htm

[Darranar]

69. But that's not skin color, that's ethnicity. n/t

[Igel]

47. I think that Mediterranean anemia is

thalassemia. Similar to sickle cell, but different. And Sa'udis have a very high incidence of it.

[Clark2008]

87. Tall is not necessarily better.

I'm short and it's an asset.
I'm 35 and look 25.
So there. :P

[kcwayne]

16. It is not racist to note differences in physical characteristics

Is the NBA racist because Asians, Caucasians, and Latinos are woefully under-represented in the player ranks? Is it simply a coincidence that the best basketball players in the world are over-whelmingly black?

Why are the best of the world class runners black?
Why are Asians statistically shorter that Europeans?
Why are South American Indians shorter on average than Asians?
Why don't Africans have red hair and lilly pale skin like the Irish?

In numerous cases, one can point to diet and culture as a key differentiator for how a certain group develops certain attributes. But when you consider the desirability of becoming a pro basketball player to all races, and assume that little white, Hispanic, Asian, and black boys want to "be like Mike" and be a fabulously wealthy athlete when they grow up, what conspiracy or racism is at play to insure that black men are disproportionately represented in the elite class of atheletes?

And more importantly, why is it racist to remark that black men, as a percentage of the population, are remarkably more talented at certain athletics than other races? It is certainly not denigrating to someone to say, "holy shit, where did you get a 48 inch vertical jump.. Here's 10 million dollars to play on our team, please take it!"

[papau]

18. true - but the point is 80% or more of the world is non-white - so

what percentage of the NBA would you expect to be non-white???!

Color is a lousy selector for any other trait!

And by the way, natural red hair is not that uncommon in Africa! (nor is it that uncommon in Greece - heck - I blame it on the Scots who never could sail worth a damn, grounding their boats on a thousand beachs!)

:-)

[Igel]

48. Gee, doesn't that mean that we're really discriminating against

Sinitic and Austronesian people in the NBA?

[papau]

77. Seems Tall Chinese are out there - so tall Vietnamese/Micronesians, etc?

Vietnamese, Chinese, Micronesians, Polynesians, Melanesians, Malays and Indonesians - granted a group one thinks on as "short" - but then there are always those tall variations!

The point of course is that marker the NBA cares about is TALL - and skin color does not do a good job of getting to TALL.

[DrWeird]

19. The reason most basketball players are African American...

is the same reason that most hockey players are white, and from places like Canada and Russia.

To say it's because of some physiological advantage is racist. It cheapens their acheivements to say, oh, they can only dunk like that because they have an extra jumping muscle. It's like Hitler writing of Jessie Owens at the Olympics.

[kcwayne]

37. Your example is not correct

Basketball is played in the US by all races. There are more non-black than black players in the US in grade school and high school programs, because there are more non-black kids in the US.

College level play is the first major separator of special talent. Very few major programs in the US have more than 1 non-black starter on their team. The separation and selection of talent that occurs at that level is based on performance and ability. If everyone had equal capability, the racial makeup of teams would be more balanced. You go from 80% of the high school players in the US being non-black to 10% of the college players being non black. Colleges select their athletes based on talent and ability. So do high schools, but they are constrained to picking from kids that live in their district, so their teams are not so statistically out of balance with population demographics.

Hockey is not played universally, so the statistics and demographics are completely different. Blacks are under-represented in several sports in the US, including golf, hockey, tennis, swimming, and skiing. The common demoninator in each of those sports is the money it takes to participate. Basketball, football, and baseball by comparison are inexpensive, and have been accessible to underpriviledged classes for all of the last century (at a recreational level).

There are pygmies in Africa, and there are tribes where everyone is 6'5" or more. If I were picking a basketball team, I would take the latter tribe. While I don't know why those people have DNA that makes them very tall, it is neither racist nor denigrating to note the obvious fact that they are taller, and will have the propensity to beat the pygmies by 80 points a game because of their height.

[DrWeird]

39. If I were going to pick a basketball team...

I'd find people who live, eat, and sleep basketball. People who dream about basketball. People who see basketball as a path to a better life.

Same for a hockey team.

[Igel]

49. I disagree.

To say there's a given provable physiological difference is to be realist. To deny it is to deny reality.

The problem is that some people can't understand that a statistical difference between two populations isn't useful in comparing individuals from the two populations, or they believe any difference found must inevitably be used for racist purposes (and even looking for them must be racist).

[canberra]

64. There are real differences between "races"

that does mean they tend to have slightly different physical characteristics. And therefore people of different ethnicities will tend to be better or worse at certain tasks than others.

Asians tends to be shorter in stature and have a lower body mass index than Pacific Islanders. It would be racist and just plain untrue to say that all Asians are shorter than Pacific Islanders, but on average they are.

How many white men have run under 10 seconds for the 100m? I don't think there has been any. How many black men, probably 30 or 40 odd. This isn't saying that all white men are slower than all black men.

[LiberalFighter]

17. Are they better athletes?

If whites and blacks had the same background and resources would they?

If they availed themselves of the athletic arena on an equal basis would they?

[papau]

20. For NBA I would chose tall under DNA - and then worry about training!

:-)

[tkmorris]

29. You'd get Manute Bol (nt)

[papau]

33. With my luck - you are right!

:-)

[DrWeird]

21. Have you actually seen the movie?

Most people who criticize the movie haven't, since they're taking it out of context.

[trumad]

27. Yeah I did

and I agree with you on your comment. I'm just taking on the title.

[txaslftist]

22. Well, blacks are more likely to be Dems... so they're prolly smarter

[raggedcompany]

73. Agreed

Since both whites AND blacks are screwed by the conservatives good and hard, you would have to deduce by the sheer numbers that at least the voting blacks have a better idea who's fucking them than the voting whites.

either that, or the voting blacks think the Democrats are the best route to being on the other side of the screwer/screwee equation. Of course, that is the same reason whites support conservatives: they believe, for some ungodly reason, that by supporting the conservatives they could one day NOT be the screwee.

"gimme mine!" isn't that the rule of the day? nevermind justice, gimme mine!!

people suck, both ebony and ivory.

/rant off

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Think Where Folks Gets Is Trouble Is When They Go From

The Universal To The Particular And From The Particular To The Universal...



For instance is a difference in I Q scores among different ethnic and racial groups but to infer from that an individual member of a racial group is smarter or dumber than an individual member of another racial or ethnic group is specious...


And then you have to factor in how much intelligence is a function of nature and how much intelligence is a function of nurture...

[ultraist]

34. The standardized IQ tests are very biased and controversial

[Misunderestimator]

30. Oh, trumad...

Why, oh why, do you have to keep bringing other logical angles to the argument?

[ultraist]

31. Race is a social construct first, and a biological construct 2nd

The difference in DNA between blacks and whites is .02% There are some biological differences, but IMO, the differences created by social constructs are much greater.

This is not to say, there are not cultural differences. Every culture has it's unique strengths. This is where the idea, "Respect diversity" comes in.

White Americans, tend to be ethnocentric, believing their culture is the best and fail to see the beauty in other cultures. In most instances, a cultural characteristic is not better or worse, just different.

[MrSlayer]

36. Tell Jonathon Edwards he can't jump.

World record holder in the triple jump.

[LizMoonstar]

41. When I looked into it for a class on evolution and its cultural effects,

I learned it as this:

There are certain types of biological types in the human race that have more fast-twitch muscle fibers (for example.) In certain ethnic groups (such as certain African groups, some Scandinavian variations, and certain Asian groups) this variation is more common. People with this biological variation are going to have faster reaction times than people without it, all else being equal. Some sports focus on things that utilize the fast-twitch muscle reaction heavily, so people with more of those muscles are likely to be better suited, cultural conditioning aside, to play those sports. People without it can train to be as good, but it requires more effort to make up for their not having the extra fibers.

Recognising this, imo, is not racist. Assuming that you can spot these people out by their ethnicity can be - being that only biological testing can show who actually does have the fast-twitch variation. One can guess, if someone has very fast reflexes, for example, with no practice, but again, that has nothing to do with ethnicity.

[ultraist]

50. Do you have a link to that? What type of research is that based on?

There are biological differences, the dif in DNA is .02% but your post sounds as if it's based more on qualitative research rather than biological (Scientific) research.

I'd love to see your source.

[LizMoonstar]

60. I'm sorry, it was years ago, and I don't still know where it came from.

And please note, it's not a difference between races. It's like how, for example, certain body types process medication differently (this was in Discover magazine recently) - some people break down chemicals very quickly, some very slowly, most in the middle. I believe they've shown that, say (I don't remember the specifics) ancestral Scandinavians have a higher percentage of fast-processers in their population, but ancestral Mediterraneaners have higher percentages of slow-processors.

I hope by my description someone will recognise this and find the source for me as well - I'd love to reread a lot of the materials we used.

[donheld]

44. It's not Racism - It's just stupid stereotyping.

[Lindacooks]

46. Sociology has one answer to this.

Many African-Americans are living in poverty and most see just two ways out: gangs and drugs, and sports.

Playing basketball is very cheap. All you need is a ball and a hoop and a flat space. So the sport is very popular in poor and urban areas and these kids do get obsessed with the sport - and very good at it.

Sixty and seventy years ago it was the Irish and boxing - another cheap sport practiced by people who generally lived in poverty.

[ultraist]

51. Great example of a cultural influence!

Discussing cultural differences is not racist unless a stereotype is used in a deragotory manner to insult the entire culture.

No one has presented any scientific evidence to show any biological differences in athletic ability.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it.

[UdoKier]

52. Is it true that (all)Blacks jump higher than (all)whites?

No. I can guarantee that I can find a black man who can jump higher than a random white man. And I can also find a white man who can jump higher than a random black man. So the statement is false.

If you asked "On average, do blacks jump higher than whites?" or "On average, do black pro basketball players jump higher than white pro basketball players?" (two very different questions) the answer could possibly be quantified by a scientific survey, but I really have no idea what the results would be.

And I agree that generalizing people in that way is awful.

[ultraist]

53. Recognizing biological and cultural differences is not racist

It's when stereotypes are used to demean an entire culture that it becomes racist.

We are not all the same! There are different cultures in our world and slight biological differences. .02% difference in DNA between blacks and whites.

Viva la diference!

The last decade of the 20th century has seen the advent of the conflicts of so-called “cultural origins”. The beginning of a new millennium did not turn out to be much successful in conjuring the mistrust that one feel towards “the others”. Yet, our Planet counts an endless number of peoples and communities, each with its specific languages, traditions, know-how and identities, which is an infinite source of creativity and as such should enrich our lives . In this era of Globalization, where the contact with the others is a daily matter, can we keep on rejecting or ignoring this wealth?

Far from separating us, the cultural diversity is a collective strength, which should benefit the entire world. In this sense, it should be recognized and affirmed as a “Common Heritage” of Humanity.

Further to the adoption of the UNESCO Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity in November 2001, the General Assembly of the United Nations welcomed the Declaration and the main lines of Action Plan and proclaimed 21 May, World Day for Cultural Diversity for Dialogue and Development.

The Day will provide us with an opportunity to deepen the understanding on the values of the Cultural Diversity and to learn to better “live together”. This is why UNESCO appeals to the Member States as well as to all the civil society to celebrate this World Day, involving as much actors and partners as possible.

[E_Smith]

54. I'm not a racist but

I recognize there are differences between races. Are blacks better athletes? Well obviously it depends on the sport, but I believe there is more than sociological reasons for the dominance of blacks in sport. this is going to sound racist but the sport of track and field (I'm a former runner) is highly divided in events between races, and people from different regions. East Africans currently dominate distance running (plus Morroco and Algeria) and West Africans or African Americans of West African descent dominate sprints. But the more to the point, the 100 meters is OWNED by blacks of West African descent-- and this event is all about reaction time and fast twitch and speed and power. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but blacks are faster sprinters. Anyone denying this is simply in denial. How much of this advantage is attributable to genetics versus environment may be debatable, but I believe the genetic advantage is significant. And the thing about sprinting is that no amount of training will make someone w/out the natural ability elite--with speed you basically either have it or you don't.

The distance events are dominated by East Africans also partly because of physical reasons- Kenyans (mainly from the rift valley) are built perfectly for distance running and many are born at altitude which provides a natural advantage. But distance running does have many more exceptions than sprinting- marathoning is more diverse but still dominated by East Africans (japanese/koreans are very good).. and a few europeans (but not many americans) break into the elite of middle distance running. And in contrast to sprinting, much more progress can be made in distance running through training.

[ultraist]

55. Do you have a link to actual stats/ facts on that?

Your post is a bit confusing because you state that it is 'more sociologically influenced' yet you note, "Kenyans are perfectly built for distance running and born at altitude which provides a natural advantage" which are clearly biological differences.

No one has provided any scientific fact to show that biological differences give blacks an advantage in sports. Does it exist or not?

[E_Smith]

56. yes there is data...

I was an elite middle distance runner so to me its almost a matter of common sense- but to get you scientific information I have to get back to you. I have to go. The world record in every mens running track event is owned by an African or African American. That should tell you something right there, empirically, in a sport as global and popular as track and field.

Distance running is LESS genetics based because its much more trainable--although make no mistake, Olympic distance runners have incredible genetic gifts.

I'll get back to you. I don't know that there is actual scientific proof, partly because such a study would be condemned as racist. (remember the Bell Curve?)

[ultraist]

59. Yes, the Bell Curve was a very biased and racist book

based on junk Science. They compared IQ differences using biased IQ tests.

Biological differences are not condemned as racist, consider skin color, hair and eye color, etc.

[E_Smith]

74. yeah I thought it was somewhat racist

in its intent. I'm not sure why else they would even do such a study. although I think there is legitimate debate over whether the IQ tests used are biased towards one race or another. the book wasn't written by total quacks, it was written by Harvard psychologists if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure I would apply the term "junk science". Although they concluded differences in IQ scores among races, I don't think they were able to prove how much of that difference is genetic/environmental based (but I think they took a guess). Also, I don't think they are able to "prove" that IQ is a perfect measure of intelligence, or if its just a measure of a type of intelligence. Athletic performance is a different matter entirely because it is perfectly measurable, especially in track and field.

[democracyindanger]

57. Depends on the sport

as well as societal factors, not to mention racial subgroup.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0657.htm

Yet, while Kenyans and other East Africans sweep upwards of 60% of the world's distance running events, they are among the world's worst football players - and sprinters. Despite an elaborate school system and the expenditure of vast amounts of the country's sparse sports resources, Kenya has flopped in trying to replicate its wondrous distance running success in football. In the sprints, after an intense decade-long national recruitment and training effort, the best Kenyan time ever in the 100m (10.28 secs) ranks somewhere near 5,000th on the all-time list.

...

No amount of political correctness can obscure the reality that East Africans have a very distinct genetically endowed body type and physiology. Kenyans are ectomorphs, short and slender, with huge natural lung capacity and a preponderance of slow-twitch muscles, the vital energy system for endurance sports. It's a perfect biomechanical package for distance running, but a disaster for sports - like sprinting and football - that require anaerobic bursts of speed.

...

While Kenyans and other East Africans hold more than 60% of the world's top endurance times, athletes of West African ancestry, including most North American, British and Caribbean blacks, are among the world's worst distance runners. The ectomorphic body type so common among East Africans is not very common in whites and is almost non-existent in those with roots in West Africa. They tend to have small and efficient lungs, muscular 'mesomorphic' lower bodies, and a high proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibres which contribute to explosive speed.

[ultraist]

63. thanks for that link!

According to that article, there is not any solid genetic research to show the differences. Furthermore, confounds, such as cultural influences, access to opportunity, and mixing of the races, will make it difficult to sort out.

The author of that article claims "it's indisputable they exist", but then notes that scientists are just beginning to look at such genetic links.

I'll hold off for more Scientific research before I form an oppinion on this one, even though I do accept there are biological differences. We just don't know what they all are yet as that level of genetic studies are in the early stages.

snips:
Although scientists are just beginning to isolate the genetic links to biologically-based differences, it is indisputable that they exist (see 'Genetic engineering and sport' - page 9). Such characteristics are not distributed equally among populations. The genetics revolution has decisively overturned the belief that all humans are created with equal potential, a tabula rasa for experience to write upon. Some functional characteristics do differentiate population clusters - most clearly in the proclivity to certain diseases and in body types.

Why do we so readily accept that evolution has turned out groups with distinct susceptibilities to different diseases - yet find it racist to acknowledge that blacks of West African ancestry have evolved into the world's best sprinters and jumpers and East Africans into the best distance runners?

In light of recent advances in genetics and the science of human performance, extremist claims that we should not discuss these 'racial' or patterned biological differences appear quaint, dangerous and perhaps even racist. Limiting the pejorative use of that problematic concept of race - an admirable goal - is not going to make the patterned biological variation on which it is based disappear. Although people share a common humanity, we are different in critical ways.

The question is no longer whether genetic research will continue - but to what end. Athletic competition, which offers a definitiveness that eludes most other aspects of life, is a perfect laboratory for a serious exploration of the complex relationship of genes and culture.

Finally, it should never be forgotten that genes are not the ultimate factors in elite performance. While genetics will determine if you have a chance to be an elite athlete, intelligence, dedication, and serendipity are the final arbiters of who wins and loses.

[E_Smith]

76. Jon Entine wrote a book on this: Taboo

here is a link to his site:

http://www.jonentine.com/

[jeffrey_X]

78. Anytime I see some say "I'm not racist, but....."

I always have doubt.

If you know you truly are not racist, then you shouldn't have to state it.

[E_Smith]

80. its unfortunately necessary to say it

when talking on this touchy subject. don't call me a racist thats bogus. if you have something of substance to add to the conversation great, but name calling is lame. if I have stated something that leads you to doubt my motives lets hear it.

[jeffrey_X]

81. I'm not calling you a racist...

In my experience, anytime I hear someone say this...the end result is not good.

Nothing personal against you, I just have issues when this phrase is used.

[E_Smith]

82. maybe "the end result is not good"

because you feel uncomfortable discussing the subject, or feel the discussion of racial differences is inherently racist. but I can see how the phrase "I'm not a racist but" could be used as a disclaimer prior to making racist comments. that was not my intention. my full sentence was "I'm not a racist but I can recognize there are differences between races."

[jeffrey_X]

86. I think the underlying issue is the tolerance of racism....

Race is a topic I discuss every day. I'm white and my wife is african american. I come from a very conservative background and my wife has been instrumental giving me another perspective about race and the history of this country.

I guess in the experiences I've had, it's the tolerance of racism and racist people that is the problem.

In fact I think you could argue that the tolerance of racism and racist people is as big of a problem as racism itself.

I think this is one of real issues that isn't changing.

[E_Smith]

88. makes sense

you know more than I do on the subject but in my experience overt racism is not tolerated.. maybe underlying or hidden racism is. but you have to think that as older people die off their racist ideas will mostly die with them. I think with each successive generation there is less and less racism.

[beyurslf]

58. And black guys dance better :) j/k (I think)

[sonicx]

61. I'm black and I suck at sports, can't dance, am only 5'3," and...

am not well endowed. I'm a defective model. :D

[kcwayne]

70. You are defective at modeling what?

[WoodrowFan]

75. DAMN!

maybe you were adopted like Steve Martin in "The Jerk"??? :P

[Blue-Jay]

62. Asians are good at math!

And bad at driving.

[durutti]

65. Read Darwin's Athletes by John Hoberman

Great book.

[11 Bravo]

67. Dwight Stones and Steve Urkle. End of story.

n/t

[Ellen Forradalom]

68. Way totally racist.

There is an elaborate system for developing and recruting basketball talent in certain inner-city areas: Brooklyn in NY and the West Side in Chicago. As with soccer in other parts of world, and with gymnastics in countries in Romania, it is based on mass participation, and careful observation of the participants.

If they had the same kind of system in place to develop and recruit black intellectual talent, most of our Nobel Prize winners would be black.

[kcwayne]

71. Interesting that you claim one observation is racist, and then make an

observation that is of exactly the same form, although your observation is speculation, not observed fact.

Is there an elaborate system that produces disproportionately gifted runners, football players, and baseball players as well?

And then of course, if you used facts as the basis for your argument about the "elaborate" system, you would know that you are very, very wrong. In the Big 10 conference, only 4 of the 140 players in the conference are from the inner cities of Chicago and Detroit. And that includes Illinois, the #1 team in the country, whose starting five players (4 of whom are black) consist of

Luther Head - Chicago (probably inner city)
Deron Williams - The Colony, Tx (nice suburb in Dallas)
Dee Brown - Maywood, IL (Chicago area, but definitely not inner city)
James Augustine - Mokena, IL (White farm boy)
Roger Powell - Joliet, IL (rough town, but not inner city)

[baldguy]

72. Well, all I can say is I know *I* can't jump.

[jpgray]

79. Guess what they were saying when Jewish players dominated basketball?

That Jewish players were inherently superior to whites at the game because of their "quick, scheming minds." Actually, the more likely reason more Jewish folks seemed to excel as compared proportionally to whites was that sports were one of few outlets a Jewish person could use to escape the limitations discrimination placed on their ambitions. White Xtian folks, by contrast, had far more avenues available and thus didn't pour the same wealth of talent into the sport. I think the same thing is happening with blacks today--since sports is one of those outlets, a lot more of black talent is focused there, whereas white talent is more dispersed--a potential Larry Bird might never pick up a ball because he decides he enjoys art more than sports. An urban, black child of similar ability would be so much less likely to be sustained and encouraged in the art world that basketball would seem the more viable choice. One race isn't inherently superior, but the one that puts more energy forth and focuses more of its talented members in an area will probably do better than the others.

[Toby109]

83. I would have to say that it is more class related

than race related. When Italian-Americans began to enter the sporting arena during the 30s and 40s many people questioned whether or not they were athletically superior to the mostly Irish-American athletes that dominated sports up to that time. Well, of course they weren't. IMO it is more about the social class you grow up in that influence athletic prowess.

[retread]

85. Why is it when there is a discussion of race, someone inevitably

brings in class. Is this a denial and an attempt to muddy the waters?

[jpgray]

90. For people in a lower social class, athletic ability is a way to get out

Whereas for a higher social class, there are so many other areas where energy and ability will be rewarded that the talent gets dispersed rather than concentrated in one area. You concentrate and reward talent in one field for any group of people, and you will get disproportionate representation of that group in that field.

[retread]

84. You ARE on a mission aren't you! n/t