The Minimum Wage issue.

[Ripley]

The difference between the Progressives and the republicans on this is the same as on so many other issues. The R's believe in a faith-based or fantasy world. The progressives believe in Reality.

The R's think MW jobs are only for teenagers, students and those earning pin money. If you are in a MW job without additional support (from Mom and Dad, spouse, Student loans, whatever) well, you deserve your plight! You must be stupid and undeserving of a higher wage or you are an illegal alien who can't interview for a better job.

The Progressives view the Reality in terms of "Fast Food/Hospitality Ghetto" as opposed to the Leave it to Beaver Fantasy World of why and how people work and live. Millions of American citizens work 2 or even 3 jobs (as Smirkaholic recently proudly pronounced "It's uniquely American!") just to keep a roof over their heads. They are not stupid. They are poor and tired and have zero time to go to school to earn that community night school degree in order to maybe make 3$ an hour more.

But it's a hopeless argument with the Dittoheads. I recently had an argument with a guy I know who works for Goodrich. He said they are desperately looking for workers (I'm guessing he makes $25/hr or more) because the lazy poor people who get hired just don't show up. Well, I can't argue about what happens at his workplace, but in my experience "laziness" is often attributed to people who have circumstances beyond anyone's knowledge except their supervisor.

For example, transportation. If Joe is driving a 1977 Chevy Nova 30 miles from the sticks to the tire plant every day to his new job, it's gonna put an increased burden on the junker and it will probably blow a head gasket he can't afford to fix. Now. Joe hasn't worked there long enough to have money to fix the car so he has no way to get to work (no public transportation in his area) except for bumming a ride or thumbing. Is he lazy? No.

The circumstances of reliable transportation, child care, health care (or lack thereof) and lack of basic utilities cause for a lot of people to "not last" in their new jobs. I've seen it personally. Yet, the wingers blame it on "laziness."

I'm not saying there are not poor lazy folks who simply don't want to work hard and get to work on time daily. They exist. But in what proportion?

The issues of MW are about the complexities poor people face. And in a Civilized Society policy makers DEAL with those complexities instead of ignoring them.

[Tux]

1. Complex

If we keep MW as is, more poverty. If we increase, more jobs go overseas. We can't have it increase without a loss of jobs. We can't compete with India, China, and Mexico without either removing MW (which jobs won't come back) or agree to reduced wages/salries (products won't become cheaper since CEOs can't live on less than a million $). Either way, we're screwed. More people in my area are looking for jobs. Kids out of high school are having trouble getting a job. We need to reset our economy and hold corporations accountable to their abuses of the system.

[Warpy]

Jobs that go overseas are generally not MW jobs

and increasing the minimum wage always increases employment as it puts more money into circulation to buy goods and services, thus increasing demand.

Supply side economics hasn't worked because the money pump goes from the bottom up, not the top down.

Until and unless this government wants to take on the corporations that ship whole industries, even strategic industries, overseas while keeping the US as the primary and sometimes only market, offshoring will continue to pick up speed, as bean counters look for every nickel to pad the bottom line.

What they're not counting on is a tipping point where the US as a market simply collapses. We know this system is totally unsustainable. The only question is when the collapse will be.

Raising the minimum wage will have little effect on offhosring. The only thing it will do is delay the inevitable collapse of a topheavy system.

[TahitiNut]

7. Correctomundo! On all points.

Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage would also increase Social Security revenues. It has. Every time.

[Ripley]

4. I don't believe that.

If we keep MW as is, more poverty. If we increase, more jobs go overseas. We can't have it increase without a loss of jobs.

What you are saying is that no one, but the poor, should take cuts in pay, benefits and perks in their lives. And that is wrong. Owners making millions of dollars will lose some profit from their Taco Bell, local dry cleaners or Ford dealership.

Is that America? What a waste it has become.

[Tux]

5. Wrong

What you are saying is that no one, but the poor, should take cuts in pay, benefits and perks in their lives

I said that MW is increased, corporations will save money by sending jobs overseas. I'm against it but I seen it in my city were over 2,000 people lost their jobs simply for getting raises. Tyco is here to so their scandel didn't help. I'm pointing out what I see. I worked at Dell as a temp. They bring Indians here for training, lay off the trainers, and send the Indians to India to go the job the American had. All to save money.

Only a depression would fix this. I don't support offhsoring but we have to deal with it till it breaks or it can be fixed.

[TahitiNut]

8. Off-shoring is done for far more reasons than labor costs.

There are countries where business graft and corruption are so embedded in the 'ruling' culture that corporate executives get "off the books" payola for doing business 'cooperatively' ... and they get other perks, too. For example, organized crime is so powerful in Malaysia that they model themselves after the US in the mid-20th Century. They make sure the corporation contracts with the 'correct' janitorial services ... the 'correct' local trucking forms ... the 'correct' waste disposal services. You name it. The government bureaucrats ensure, for a price, that occupational health and safety regulations are weak and what there are aren't enforced. Same for pollution controls.

I worked for a Fortune 100 corporation with operations in Malaysia. There was a new plant manager. He wore a "white hat." When he took over, he balked at the costs of some of the contracts and found other vendors. One day, he got a call at work from his wife and children who were being held hostage in the family's home. He got the message.

The (unwritten) 'rules' for doing business operations in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, PRChina, and other "cheap-labor" countries (including India) are arcane, corrupt and highly favorable to the wealthy class.

[Ripley]

9. Hey Tux maybe I misunderstood you.

Huh?

:hi:

[baldguy]

10. My job went to India.

I worked at a bank that moved their entire c/s operation. A total of 5000 people each earning about $11-15/hr.

The jobs being outsourced are MIDDLE CLASS jobs.

[Ripley]

11. Middle Class America is ?

What anymore?

These crooks are filthy-rich people like Rush, and they love him as they sit on their last dollar.

[Nikia]

2. I don't know about that man's workplace

We have more than enough people who want to work where I work. It is not the best place to work, but it pays $9-$11 for general production, no extra education or experience required and is first shift. That is pretty good for around here. We have hired mostly from temp eagencies. If they don't show up for whatever reason, even if they call in with few exception, they will not be asked back. If they break any rules or the other workers don't like them, they will not be asked back. If they have put in enough time and there is a permanent opening, they will be carefully reviewed before they are hired. We have always had temps whenever we needed them. When our HR person listed a couple jobs with the state employment agency, there were over 300 applicants.
A close friend of mine was recently unemployed and applied for over 100 jobs. Most of the places where he got interviews told him that there were hundreds of applicants for that job. Most of these jobs that paid more than $10/hour involved a multi step interview. These were all manufacturing jobs.
Most jobs here pay a little bit more than minimimum wage, but interestingingly less than they were paid 5 years ago. For example, I worked part time in a fast food restaurant making $7. I looked into this part time work again and found that I would make around $6/hour. The other change is that now they can actually expect those adults, who want full time work, to stay around instead of leave in a couple of months when they get better jobs.

[Tux]

6. Full time?

Employers here only ask for part-time.

[Lefty48197]

3. I'd like a big mac with fries please

I'm sorry we can't afford the $7.25 an hour for our employees. Could you tell the people in line behind you that we can't afford to serve them either?