Would brave, young G.I.'s under orders, fire upon we the people?

[mopaul]

Always imagining the worst case scenario to prepare for the possible future. There have been recent examples, the fall of the Soviet Union, the Tiananmen Square Revolt, where the revolution just couldn't be delayed another day, and throngs of angry people made their presence known en masse.

And at the fever pitch point, orders were given to fire into the crowd, like most imperialist governments are forced to do to hold power. And the soldiers usually follow orders, out of loyalty and duty, but there are some that cannot bring themselves to look into the crowd and fire, seeing their own sister or grandfather or son.

I wonder if such a horror ever occurred here, (it can't happen here, can it?), if our local boys in blue and green and camo could dredge up enough patriotism, loyalty to oath of duty, and guts to fire a cannon into a crowd of individuals just like himself?

Surely we didn't raise our young men to do that did we? Carry out orders to fire into a crowd of unarmed, innocent men, women, and children who meant us no harm? It only happens in Iraq where everybody is a terrorist insurgent, but it CAN'T happen here.

[MichiganVote]

1. Want to bet? Remember Kent State?

[mopaul]

3. yeah, i remember

four dead in ohio. but that was soooo long ago, and only four dead, not a bad ratio considering only 58,000 g.i.'s died in Nam, and millions of the locals.

but that war lost it's popularity eventually, let's hope this storm is a short one.

[MichiganVote]

11. Tell that to the families of the 4 dead+the 58,000. We were all losers

As far as it being long ago, so was the revolutionary war, the civil war and other occasions that resulted in military violence against unarmed citizens. As little as few months ago, policemen in NY were carrying armed assault rifles in NY at the prompting of the Homeland Security Office. Think they would have hesitated to use them on the population? No way.

[Freebird12004]

70. and that " Is the way it is."

everyone is hurt by war and violence.

[amazona]

69. only 4 dead?

There were other not so widely reported killings of student protestors at the same time. Typical media B.S. They report the big one and not the others. Used to be a website about it.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[agingdem]

15. My first thought, too.

I remember Kent State like it was yesterday.

[MichiganVote]

24. Yup. Remeber too the riots in NY during the draft/Civil War

Governments have always endorsed arming troops during what they deem a civil insurrection.

[jdj]

45. not only would they, but the vigilante freepers wouldn't hesitate

to jump in and use all their assault weapons on us. They are just waiting on the immunity announcement from the white house.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

131. Miami, November 2003

Friday, November 21st, 2003
Mayhem in Miami: Amidst Tear Gas and Rubber Bullets Democracy Now! Reports From the Streets of the FTAA Protests

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/21/1521259

Up to 70 people were arrested and dozens more were injured as Miami police used concussion grenades and stun guns as well as rubber bullets and tear gas on people demonstrating against the talks. We hear a report from the streets of Miami produced by Jeremy Scahill, Ana Nogueira and John Hamilton.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Trade Area of the Americas talks ended early yesterday evening in Miami after ministers from 34 countries accepted a watered-down proposal in order to save the talks from total collapse. All that was agreed was to scale back the FTAA’s scope in a deal that is being described as “FTAA-Lite.”
Up to 70 people were arrested and dozens injured at large-scale demonstrations staged against the FTAA summit.

More than ten thousand union members from across the country marched through downtown Miami to protest the meeting where some 2,500 police officers from more than two-dozen law enforcement agencies had converged.

While that demonstration passed without incident, the day was marked by extraordinary police brutality against demonstrators. Repeatedly throughout the day, security forces deployed on the streets of Miami fired rubber bullets and tear gas at demonstrators. Scores of people were injured as police used both concussion grenades and stun guns outside the hotel where the FTAA summit was taking place.

Democracy Now! correspondent Jeremy Scahill was shot twice with rubber bullets, as was independent filmmaker John Hamilton who was working with Democracy Now! in Miami. We turn now to a report produced by Democracy Now!’s Jeremy Scahill, Ana Nogueira and John Hamilton of the Workers Independent News Service. The piece is reported by Jeremy Scahill.


Mayhem in Miami: Report from the FTAA protests produced by Democracy Now! correspondents Jeremy Scahill, Ana Nogueria and John Hamliton of the Workers Independent News Service.
Online Exclusive: Listen (MP3) <1> <2> to reports from the streets of Miami from Jeremy Scahill.

[bush_is_wacko]

136. This situation is a little different from Kent State. there are MANY

foreign countries now dependent on America's power than there were at that time in history. I could see troops firing on "student uprisings" like you suggest, but any uprising like that under these conditions would more than likely involve more than "student uprising." The crisis may be more silent than back then, but I am certain it is far more pervasive than it was back then.

These polls and ridiculous reports of support for bushitler are VASTLY inflated for the benefit of squashing resistance, but it is there and in much larger number's than we can ever really know.

I'm not sure what the breaking point is for American's, but there is one. I'm SURE of it. It seems to me the administration is doing everything in their power to make American's believe it doesn't exist in large number's. They want us to give up and go away. Meanwhile they are trying to distract us with EVERY domestic tool available in their arsenal. They are attacking long standing domestic issues to divert our attention to THIS country rather than allow us to focus on what they are doing elsewhere in the world. I'm sure of that as well.

Iran? Reinstatement of the draft? BOTH issues that could make American's IMPLODE on this administration!

[Coastie for Truth]

141. My cousin Sandra Scheur was one of the victims

We do not blame the Guardsmen. We blame the Generals (del Orso and Canterbury) and the thoroughly corrupt Governor Rhodes - in the Ohio GOP tradition of Ken Blackwell and Jim Petro (who claims to be a lawyer).

Kent State was an abberation.


Would soldiers fire on their fellow citizens? No.

WOULD SWORN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS (POLICE) FIRE ON CIVILIANS - YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPIE THEY WOULD

[datasuspect]

142. but in times of insurrection/national emergency

the president can federalize all local, county, and state law enforcement elements making them a de facto function of the us military.

the police and the military have been traditionally incestuous. old soldiers never die, they just become cops.

[Coastie for Truth]

145. I work as a Red Cross volunteer with fire fighters and cops at

disaster scenes - floods, fires, earthquakes. There is a definite difference in personality and attitude.

By the way - the Feds can not "Federalize" locals.

[datasuspect]

146. cannot remember the exact Executive Orders

but there are multiple references empowering the executive, various secretaries, and FEMA to "transfer authority" in the event of "national emergency" or when securing industrial resources or critical infrastructure is necessary. this includes federalizing all levels of law enforcement. bear in mind, if dumbya cooks it up in his head, he can draft ANY Executive Order and it has the full force of law. So even if it is not possible to federalize locals (as you claim), it is one decision away. i maintain it is possible and possible through manifold agencies, not only through the executive office

the references to this are numerous and cloaked in legalease, but any intrepid web-surfer can find the text of these Orders fairly easy.

[Coastie for Truth]

148. My take - from the Florida Hurricanes

is that the executive orders "authorize" certain reimbursements to local police, fire, OES, emt, hospitals.

I remember in Florida last fall, some discussion of the ancillary executive orders after the Federal Declaration of Emergency.

[datasuspect]

149. Executive orders

are often activated during natural disasters. but a natural disaster in one part of the country does not constitute a national emergency or bring into effect the more sweeping powers that exist.

i'm thinking more along the lines of national security. kinda like when they grounded ALL commercial flights. that kind of thing.

many of the orders are overlapping and empower different agencies to do different things. some kennedy-era orders actually empower the Postmaster General of the United States to create identification schemes for citizens in the event of crisis and which create enforcement of citizen reporting to post offices and government offices for redeployment to areas which require labor. a lot of kennedy era orders have been revoked though.

[Walt Starr]

2. They absolutely would. It's in the training.

Cops fire on protestors with rubber bullets today. They use chemical sprays today. They use other weapons on we the people today.

What makes you think soldiers would react differently? When put into what is perceived as a comat situation, they treat anybody perceived as the enemy with not regard. It is kill or be killed in their minds at that time.

That's why the number of civilian casualties in Iraq is so mind numbing.

[SouthernDem2004]

As a Police Officer I have to say your post is inflammatory and the second

paragraph is baseless.

[G_j]

17. leaving the second paragraph aside,

is there anything in the first paragraph that is not true?
..no

[SouthernDem2004]

52. First paragraph is completely true. What would you have us do? Shoot real

bullets are just plain beat them down??? How about some dogs and hoses? Would that be better?

[G_j]

58. hello?

Let's back up a bit. Why would nonviolent demonstrators be treated violently to begin with?

edit: like this woman at the Miami FTAA protests,


peaceful meditation/prayer

shot with a rubber bullet

WHY?

[Just Me]

90. That use of unnecessary force is so damned disturbing,...

,...it just makes me weep. :cry:

How could any of us treat fellow NONVIOLENT Americans in such a horrible way?

I weep for this country. :cry:

I weep because this country is evolving towards fascism. :cry:

[SouthernDem2004]

100. It is unfortuante that someone was injured but people can not do whatever

they want just because it is "peaceful."

[Walt Starr]

119. It's the cop mentality, beat down protesters peaceful or not!

It's been my experience that cops are prone to violent reactions even in peaceful situations.

Cops seem to me to be the more violent people in our society.

[datasuspect]

144. uh, yes they can

if it involves peaceably assembling to redress grievances against the government.

those silly unarmed people praying during a protest! what were thinking!

[SouthernDem2004]

99. Did she refuse to leave? Clearly the Police were moving the crowd for

some reason.

[readmoreoften]

106. So give someone a head wound because she's having a sit in?

Or praying on the grass on the side of the road? What, she didn't run away quick enough when told to move. I'm sure that you encounter many frightening situations as a police officer, but those pictures are unjustifiable. What would I have you do in that situation? No, not use real bullets. No, not use violence. How about accepting that people are protesting peacefully and just wait until they've made their point. How about doing the right thing?

I saw what went on at the RNC and the police used many tactics to disempower the voice of progressives. And only progressives, I might add.

[SouthernDem2004]

108. Those pictures are not the whole story. Even so you notice she is sitting

alone to start with. If she refused to move then they have no choice but to move her.

What would I do? Pepper Spray for one person, CS gas for numerous. Horrible stuff but does not cause lasting injury.

People can not do whatever they want. We are a nation of laws. You can not decide which laws to obey and when.

[G_j]

123. just like when they turned the dogs on MLK

By your reasoning that was completely justified. You tell me how history judged those actions. The language you speak of is force and violence. When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
MLK is viewed as one of the greatest and most inspirational leaders America has known. Would you beat him or sic a dog upon him?


btw, these photos represent only one episode, there are scores of others. This was not an isolated instance.


"The Miami Model"

[SouthernDem2004]

129. Not a valid point...

We do not use K-9s like that any more. Causing injury intentionally is never a good idea. Why don't you just mention the Union problems in the 1800s when Police and Union members actually shot at each other? Does not apply to today now does it?

[G_j]

130. OK are you saying

that "non-lethal" weapons would have been appropriate in the case of the nonviolent civil disobedience of MLK and civil rights activists? It sounds like it.
In the atmosphere created by the Bush admin. which seeks to stifle free speech and dissent are you ready to use these weapons on dissenters? I suggest some thought and research on your part concerning this. I am in no way saying you are a bad person or an enemy because you are a cop, but you and your fellow policeman should not be used to stife political dissent. I doubt if that is why you joined the police force.

Further, "non-lethal" can cause serious injury, even death. (You must have heard of the woman killed by a pepper ball in Boston after the Red Sox world series win.)

"Causing injury intentionally" may or not not be the motive in the use of these weapons, however serious injuries occur nonetheless.



April 7, 2003 Oakland docks picket by anti-war protesters was the scene of a "less-lethal" police onslaught as riot cops opened fire with wooden bullets and concussion grenades, injuring dozens of protesters and portworkers -- none of whom have been charged with any crime.
--
Police Attack California Anti-War Protesters
by Martha Mendoza

OAKLAND, Calif. - Police open fired Monday morning with non-lethal bullets at an anti-war protest at the Port of Oakland, injuring several longshoremen standing nearby.

<snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0407-06.htm

====

[SouthernDem2004]

132. Reply:

There is no such thing as a non-lethal weapon. They are called less-lethal. There is always a potential for injury but alot less likely then using the hands on approach.

Illegal demonstrations should be broken up plain and simple. To continue your MLK example if you recall most protest were done correctly and without incident. Regardless, the Police must uphold the law. If you do not like the law, change it.

I love the inflammatory terms like "onslaught" and "open fired." People act like we want to injury people. The protesters were warned repeatedly and knew full well that the Police were going to enforce the law. They made the choice.

Let us say a person chooses to sit on train tracks. A train is approaching at a high rate of speed and sounding its horn because it does not have time to stop. The person on the track refuses to move. Who is responsible for the impending results? The person sitting on the tracks or the train conductor?

Some people seem to project whatever issue they are protesting onto the Police. Why throw things at the Police? Why refuse to move when you know they have no choice but to make you? We do not make laws or policy. Heck, we are not even part of the Federal government.

As usual the Police are caught in the middle. Yea, we love wearing riot gear, working 18 hour days, being yelled at, spat on, having things thrown at us and being blamed for just about everything from the war in Iraq to NAFTA. Wooohooo!

[G_j]

134. So to get back closer to the original subject,

would you as a "Democrat" or an American, enforce the PATRIOT Acts (I&II) against anti-war groups, or "move" anti-Bush protesters out of his sight by whatever means "necessary" (such as in Portland when a child ended up being pepper-sprayed)? If recent legislation is passed by the Senate which would allow Bush or Homeland Security officials to suspend all laws would you enforce orders given against one political group? Would you help round them up? Would you fire upon them?

[SouthernDem2004]

140. You are reaching...

How exactly has the Patriot Act been used against a single protester?

No one said anything about any means necessary.

I have been pepper sprayed 7 times. It hurts but is harmless. I have no knowledge of the incident to which for refer.

They could not suspend all laws.

No one has given "orders" based on political affiliation.

No one has been rounded up since WWII.

No one has been ordered to "fire" upon anyone.

I do not subscribe to conspiracy theories.

[bvar22]

153. What World do you live in?

You said:
"No one has given "orders" based on political affiliation."

You obviously have never been to a "public" appearance by bush*. Those who are critical of the chimperor are forced into cattle pens. Pro-bush posters are allowed to gather on the public streets. These are DIRECT ORDERS to LAW ENFORCEMENT based on Political Affiliation. This is only one example.




You said:
No one has been rounded up since WWII

After 9-11, over 5,000 individuals were rounded up and imprisoned without charges or access to lawyers. Many of those rounded up had committed no crime other than being of Middle eastern descent. Of the over 5,000 rounded up and imprisoned without charges, NONE resulted in criminal charges.




You said:
No one has been ordered to "fire" upon anyone

Absolutely FALSE!
In Miami, the Police were ordered to fire into the crowds with wooden slugs.




You said:
I have been pepper sprayed 7 times. It hurts but is harmless.

You are a big strong policeman.
Would it be harmless to and elderly woman with asthma? How about infants with respiratory problems?



Two questions for you:

1)Is it true that bush* administration has hired PR agents to spread pro-administration propaganda on Internet sites ?

2) Could these agents be at DU, and would they use more than one screen name?

[datasuspect]

150. due process/constitutional rights

are like a running joke to the cops.

try advising an officer of your civil rights and see how far THAT gets you.

[readmoreoften]

107. I think you mean...

"clearly the police are right."

Let's just 86 the possibility that the police are in the wrong on this one.

PS: I've seen the video footage on this one. The police were firing rounds of rubber bullets into the crowd as the crowd was running away frantically. There is no excuse for that.

[SouthernDem2004]

110. Were they running before the bullets????????? I bet they were not.

[readmoreoften]

111. That is irrelevant. They were running during the bullets.

And there was no compelling argument that they needed to start running in the first place other than that the police ordered them to. They were running through a park.

I'm no cop hater or anti-military type. But you're making me change my mind. If a cop who proports to be a democrat is this desensitized to violence against peaceful demonstrations, then lord help us.

[SouthernDem2004]

113. Ok...

The Police have a job. No, They do not always like it.

If the "peaceful" demonstrators are some place they are not supposed to be the Police have to move them. If they had a permit to be there the Police would not do a thing. You have to have a permit to hold any type of sizable gathering in a park be it a demonstration or a concert. So now the Police have to move these people that are there illegally. How are they going to do it??? Clearly they ask and then order them to leave but that does not work now does it. Then they tell them to disperse or they will gas/rubber bullet/spray whatever. They still do not move. What now? Should the Police just go home and let people do whatever they want when they refuse to comply.

Just because someone is a Democrat does not give them the write to break the law. Talk to the city's mayor about the permit deal, not the Police.

[TeeYiYi]

138. Well I guess that answers the question . . .

. . . You WOULD do it. Because it's your job. :(

TYY

[PowerToThePeople]

152. Permits, what BS

Protests are generaly sizable gatherings of individuals, who is gonna get the permit? Please, that is a bullshit law used to stifle dissidence. To apply to protests, which with the web now, can be organized very quickly, is wrong. "Free-speech, but you have to tell us 2 weeks in advance that you are going to speak, and then we may decide that you shouldn't speak there(deny permit)." F$*&ing BS!!

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[signmike]

18. Baseless? I live in L.A. Think=L.A.P.D. Seen the news lately?

[SouthernDem2004]

55. Be more specific.

[BiggJawn]

26. Inflammatory, maybe...

But I agree with the statement. Never mind the soldiers, because they're busy fighting the Holy Wars world-wide. The cops will take care of us "Perps", with their "Us against Anarchy" (Thin Blue Line) mindset and "harmless" Cattle Prods.

You can't tell me you don't work with people who are just ITCHING to bust some Perp heads to get "even" with the punks who shoved their heads in the toilet in junior high. Those are the ones who scare me, and since you can't figure out who they are until they start swinging....

[SouthernDem2004]

53. First I do not know anyone that uses the term "perp." That is just on TV.

Also, Police generally are not the geeks from school.

[BiggJawn]

80. OK....

We can agree to disagree. Just know that there are some here (including me) who have some serious concerns about the role the Police will play in the up-coming Death of Democracy.

You probably didn't get into that line of work because you have a robo-cop complex. Hell, your presence and contributions here show me that you're probably a pretty square guy.
But it's your co-workers, and by co-workers, I mean the others in Police work that you can't speak for because you don't know them who worry me, the Bernie Keriks of the world...

[SouthernDem2004]

102. There are bad people everywhere. We do what we can.

[DenverDem]

33. Selma, Montgomery, Birmingham, Jackson?

Baseless?

[Modem Butterfly]

40. Remember that the National Guard protected blacks from whites then

If it weren't for the NATIONAL GUARD the first African Americans attempting to integrate schools and exercise their voting rights would probably have been TORN APART by their fellow white citizens.

[DenverDem]

44. And the National Guard murdered blacks in Jackson.

They were great in Little Rock, with General Eisenhower breathing down their necks.

[Modem Butterfly]

60. No, that was th civilian police force

http://www.may41970.com/Jackson%20State/jackson_state_may_1970.htm

BIG difference.

[DELUSIONAL]

47. or any college of the Vietnam era that was anti war

The pig cops beat students -- and were not to be trusted.

I remember when I tried to cross the street merely to get to my class a pig cop aimed his rifle at me and order me to turn around and leave -- per order of the Governor who had closed the campus.

There was no posting and NO announcement that the college was closed - - and the pig cops hated college students -- WE WERE THE ENEMY.

All it takes is to brain wash the troops about the identity of the "enemy" and these shit for brains will fire on unarmed American citizens and they will get away with murder just like the National Guard murdered unarmed students in Kent State. And that day is as clear in my mind as the day President Kennedy was assassinated.

I have seen Americans ordered to kill and/or abuse Americans in my lifetime -- and I feel it will happen again with the gang of thugs that now are in control of all branches of the Government -- including the propaganda arm of the government -- the corporate media.

I wasn't in the states during the civil rights marches -- but this is also another example of Americans beating, and killing other Americans -- I've seen the film of the civil rights marches and it is as disturbing to me as that pig cop calling me names and ordering me to turn around or he would gladly shoot me if I set foot on campus.

Cops are just another branch of the military -- they are -- Sgts and Lt. and Commanders -- the use of military rank and the demand for strict obedience (they even dress like military commandos -- when dealing with unruly "crowds") we've seen cops acting badly before -- even the "nice" ones who have a nice family in the suburbs. We've seen cops riot -- like the Democratic Convention in Chicago 1968. Again this was Americans being turned on Americans.

I don't think it is a mistake that bush and his buddies continue to divide this nation -- they use emotional hot button issues to drive a wedge between citizens -- thus the use of RED and BLUE states. That way it will be easier to turn one group of Americans against another group. One group will be turned into a mob and will rip apart the undesirable "other" by the bush gang of thugs.

[Modem Butterfly]

56. They did the same thing after the hurricanes in Florida

The National Guard enforced martial law to stop looting and rioting.

No offense to the threat you were under, but there's a world of difference between ordering someone to leave at gunpoint and shooting them down in cold blood. And I say that as someone who's been tear-gassed in a student protest.

The police are competely different from the military. Different mission, different process, different training, total division of powers. Totally different.

And it looks like us Dems are doing a pretty good job at dividing Americans into red and blue as well, doesn't it?

[DELUSIONAL]

61. The mission may be different but the military mind set is not

The temperament traits of people who choose to be cops and choose the military as a career are very similar.

Also the "command" structure -- and "patrol" is similar -- because it doesn't take long for the cops to consider ALL citizens as the "other" the enemy.

The difference between being shot dead immediately and living with the memory of the cop with his finger on the trigger -- is that I am alive to relive that memory every single day and the other person is dead. I was a fraction of an inch away from being a dead student statistic and I know that cop was itching to make the kill. The cop's uniform has become more military -- and many cops are National Guard or ex-military. It takes the same mind set (personality temperament traits) to be in the military or on the civilian police force.

I'm a military brat -- so I know about command structure -- and chain of command. Cops have the same sort of chain of command and we've seen them follow orders and treat peaceful demonstrators as the enemy.

From the Kent state example we know that the National Guard WILL murder unarmed citizens.

[Modem Butterfly]

71. This is Modem's partner, Will

This is Modem's partner, Will, stepping in for a moment. I'm an Army veteran who served five years on active duty, one year in the Reserves and two years in the Inactive Reserve. I served during (but not in) Operations Desert Shield, Desert Storm and Just Cause, and while I'm not an authority on all things military, I have to say that Delusional has posted some complete and total crap here.

Police and military have a similar mindset? I don't think so. I have friends in both careers, and while there is some crossover, I'd have to say that I find my cop friends much more tightassed, on average, than my military friends. Even so, that's only anecdotal evidence, so I don't feel that I'm qualified to make a firm claim one way or the other. By the same token, I don't think that Delusional is, either.

Let's go farther. The average enlisted soldier has absolutely no training whatsoever that would suit them for community policing. Yes, they're trained in rifle marksmanship, but most enlisted troops won't ever handle a pistol (standard police firearm) in their military careers, let alone fire or qualify with one. The average enlisted trooper doesn't receive training in crowd control (a key police function) or in evidence handling (also a key cop skill) or in questioning suspects (yet another key cop skill). Just in case you weren't aware of it, Delusional, there's an MOS called "Military Police."

Look, even if you did know what was in a given cop's head at a given moment (a notion I reject unless you're running Windows for Telepaths), that still doesn't give you any particular insight into overall cop psychology, and it doesn't give you any particular insight into military psychology, either. You are doing some remarkably unjustifiable generalizing from an extremely small and extremely dubious sample population.

Police uniforms have become more military? So what? I see high-school kids wearing military clothing items; does that mean that all high-school kids will shoot unarmed civilians if an authority figure tells them to? And many policemen are former military? So what? Many of them aren't. Lots of postal workers are ex-military. Lots of airline pilots are ex-military. You're confusing correlation with causation.

You're a military brat, so you know about command structure? Respectfully, you're full of beans. My dad's a university professor, but that doesn't give me any particular insight into his academic career, and it certainly doesn't give me any standing to make overarching pronouncements about the psychology of university professors and the psychology of university students.

I love it when people cite the Kent State example and make the claim you did. Based on four frightened troops who fired wildly into a crowd, you feel justified in claiming that all servicemembers would shoot civilians if ordered? I see. I suppose we should disregard all the other Vietnam-era confrontations in which Guardsmen and Reservists *didn't* fire. I suppose we should disregard all the civil disturbances of the past 40 years in which Guardsmen and Reservists participated -- and didn't fire. I suppose we should disregard all the civil emergencies of the past 40 years (hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, etc. etc. etc.) in which Guardsmen and Reservists provided civil services and security -- and didn't fire on looters.

The fact of the matter is, Delusional, is that you've already made your mind up based on your limited personal experience and on limited empirical evidence. If you have something personal against cops, that's fine. If you have something personal against servicemembers, that's fine, too. But there are scant examples of servicemen firing on unarmed civilians, and I feel quite confident in telling you that you're just plain wrong when you tar the Guard (and, by extension, the rest of the uniformed services) with your broad, broad brush.

Prejudice against servicemembers is as objectionable and as abhorrent as prejudice against any other group. I think you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, Delusional.

[DenverDem]

78. All we need to look at is the "honorable" actions in Iraq and Afghanistan

to see how much to trust the "honor" of our military.

Pardon me if I don't feel safe from attacks by a publican and global corporatist led military against those of us who dissent against their preimptive imperialist paradigm.

[Modem Butterfly]

79. The fact that you don't feel safe doesn't change anything

Shit in Iraq is fucked up. Yeah, we fucked it up, but you need to learn to distinguish between our government and our military. Those men and women have been put in an untenable situation where they don't know who is going to try to kill them and who isn't. Mistakes happen and shit gets fucked up. They shouldn't be there, but they didn't get a say in it.

The social contract between America and her soldiers is that soldiers will defend America when asked but that America won't ask unless necessary and will respect the lives and health of her soldiers, both mentally and physically. This contract has been broken, but it wasn't broken by the troops. You need to realize that our troops are just as fucked in this, maybe moreso, because they can't get out of it. What you're saying is that we should blame the victim rather than the perpetrator. And that's just wrong.

[DenverDem]

81. "they don't know who is going to try to kill them and who isn't."

That will be the position they are in when they are turned loose against us dissidents in America by busholini and rumsfertau and their pnac corporate globalist overlords.

That is why posse comitatus is being overturned.

The fact that I don't feel safe changes EVERYTHING.

[Modem Butterfly]

84. So you're saying that American liberals will wage war against our military

That will be the position they are in when they are turned loose against us dissidents in America by busholini and rumsfertau and their pnac corporate globalist overlords.

I don't know about you, but I also refuse to believe that American liberals are going to become suicide bombers.

The fact that I don't feel safe changes EVERYTHING.

If you become a terrorist, you'll find that you have more to fear from your fellow liberals than the members of the military or the police.

[DenverDem]

86. I am already considered a terrorist by this administration.

Whether I own a gun or not.

How will the military distinguish between liberals and conservatives when they attack Denver?

"you'll find that you have more to fear from your fellow liberals than the members of the military or the police."

So, now YOU are threatening me. Funny how that works.

Nice.

[Modem Butterfly]

89. Oh please

David Koresh. Timothy McVeigh. Eric Rudolph. The Unabomber. You have much more to fear from your fellow civilians than our military.

How will the military distinguish between liberals and conservatives when they attack Denver?

When did you stop beating your wife?

Have you always been this insane, or is it just the drugs?

Do the voices in your head keep other people up at night?

In all seriousness, presupposing an attack on Denver doesn't mean I'm going to entertain your paranoid fantasies. Anyway I live in Atlanta. They'll totally attack here first.

:P

So, now YOU are threatening me. Funny how that works.

I didn't threaten you. But if you decide to become a terroist, as your previous post indicates, you'll find little support and a great deal of opposition from your fellow liberals.

[DenverDem]

97. YOU referred to me as a terrorist,

all I claimed to be was a dissident, which qualifies as a terrorist to the radical right wing, (see ann coulter). So YOU projected terrorism into the term "dissident".

Your threat was that, as a disident/terrorist, I could expect to receive retribution with implied extreme prejudice from my "fellow liberals". Message understood.

The OP was about the possibility of busholini labeling dissidents "enemy combatants" and turning the army loose on us. If you think he's not megamaniacly sociopathological enough to do it, you are deluded.

The turning point will come when the joint chiefs make the call to either start killing lefties to prop up the global corporatist fascists or, alternatively, to restore democracy to the USA by their own power. Let's hope they make the right decision. Should the corporatists' order come down, Americans will be killing Americans once again. It would not have been the first time Americans have killed Americans to protect corporate power.

[Modem Butterfly]

105. No, I didn't

So YOU projected terrorism into the term "dissident".

I'm sorry, you'll have to limit yourself to things I've actually said. For the record, I said, If you become a terrorist. Big difference.

Your threat was that, as a disident/terrorist, I could expect to receive retribution with implied extreme prejudice from my "fellow liberals". Message understood.

More like "Message made up out of wholecloth because I'm losing this argument. Once again, for the record, I said, If you become a terrorist, you'll find that you have more to fear from your fellow liberals than the members of the military or the police. because YOUR post alludes to killing US soldiers. As in: They won't know who is going to try to kill them and who isn'tThat will be the position they are in when they are turned loose against us dissidents in America by busholini and rumsfertau and their pnac corporate globalist overlords.

Rest assured, I and my fellow liberal Americans will be there to tell the black helicopters how to find you.

:eyes:

The OP was about the possibility of busholini labeling dissidents "enemy combatants" and turning the army loose on us. If you think he's not megamaniacly sociopathological enough to do it, you are deluded.

No, I know Bush is nuts. But I also know that our military is made up of thinking, feeling, sentient America men and women, who will not blindly follow orders.

I have no faith in our so-called leaders. But I do have faith in the members of our military.

[northamericancitizen]

115. self-deleted

[SouthernDem2004]

104. Wow, you make alot of horrible assumptions at the Guard and the Police.

You know alot of things about other people. Odd, considering you have never been an Cop or in the military.

Sure, I have been active duty Army and I am currently a Police Officer and in the Guard. I would say that prior service only make up about 35% of Police. The Guard of today is not the guard of 30 years ago neither are Police.

[Walt Starr]

121. I was in the Guard

and the training I recieved was to beat people senseless regardless. Get the order, beat some heads. That's the way it is.

[SouthernDem2004]

54. That was then, this is now...

[readmoreoften]

109. And now isn't much different from then n/t

[diamond14]

65. PHOTOS of U.S. National Guard FIRING and KILLING American students....

http://www.may41970.com/chronology.htm
http://alancanfora.com/index.asp


The Kent State Massacre, May 4, 1970


The ROTC Building was BURNED TO THE GROUND, as PRO-PEACE students tried to run the military recruiters OFF THE CAMPUS. This resulted in the Governor bringing in the U.S. National Guard to shoot the students, the next day.

In the first two weeks of May 1970, thirty ROTC buildings would be burned nationwide on America's Campuses



The conservative Republican, pro-war, Ohio Governor James Rhodes arrived at KSU for a tour of the damage and a news conference. Rhodes was facing a tough May 5 US Senate primary election and he was behind in the preelection polls.

This desperate politician exaggerated the situation to further his own political election and career. He condemned the Kent students as "the worst type of people we harbor in America . . . worse than the Communists . . . We're going to eradicate the problem!"







Full-Time Students
All 13 of the Kent State massacre victims were full-time students. This fact dispels the myth of "outside-agitators" in the student demonstration. Kent State was where the most American students were killed in one incident (4) and the only incident where women were killed (2).

Allison and Jeff were active protesters. Allison was an aspiring artist in the Honors College at Kent State. Jeff Miller had recently transferred to Kent from Michigan State University.

Sandy and Bill were bystanders killed as they walked away toward their classrooms. Bill Schroeder was an "all-American boy" & a ROTC student of military science and business administration. Sandy Scheuer had been a member of Alpha Xi Delta sorority.

Jackson State
Only 10 days later, two more students were killed by racist highway patrolmen at Jackson State University, in Mississippi: James Earl Green and Philip Gibbs.


Kent State Student BRAVELY circle a DYING student on the ground



National Guard CONTINUE THEIR ATTACK, as students try to provide FIRST AID to the dying and injured students....

[Walt Starr]

118. Truth hurts, huh?

Cops fire on innocent peaceful prtestors all the time with chemical sprays and runbber bullets. Icidents of that have been documented over the past four years on DU.

Don't like it? Change the cops.

[tralfaz]

128. Thank you, I agree n/t

[datasuspect]

143. and i would add

that cops taser compliant teens and senior citizens too.

in chicago recently, a sergeant tasered a boy and he went directly into cardiac arrest.

[Poppyseedman]

4. Don't forget Waco

They may have been armed, but to burn down their building with women and child inside is unspeakable regardless of what they believed

[VTMechEngr]

8. We know now that the waco people burned it down themselves

Mass suicide/murder

[sierrajim]

83. Nope! It was government sactioned MURDER

[Poppyseedman]

124. No we don't.

The Davidians didn't burn themselves down.

Waco was a watershed moment for me. That was the point in time I WOKE UP political.

I have researched Waco rather extensively and I mean extensively.

I have read almost everything every published on the subject, pro and con

[arkie dem]

10. I believe the Davidians torched their compound

not the Feds.

If you believe the final report by former Sen. John Danforth???

[itzamirakul]

5. Yes, they would...

Just listen to the number of soldiers, even among those who have been critically maimed and injured, who have "drunk the koolade" and feel that the war is just. They wouldn't hesitate one moment to unload their rifles into a crowd of "unruly" Americans.

[elehhhhna]

6. They can just cook us with microwaves, like in Iraq.

[randr]

7. Four dead in Ohio-Neal Young

[autorank]

9. Corporate leaders consistently fire poison in the form of pollution on us.

[rzemanfl]

12. I too remember Kent State. Nonetheless, I don't think that

any great number of Americans would fire on unarmed Americans. In World War II it was found that only 25% of Americans in combat situations actually fired AT an enemy. Lots of them fired towards the enemy, but only a minority ever lined up their sights on a person and pulled the trigger.

Bush is a fool (well of course he is, but) if he thinks that he can keep shitting on the military and still count on their blind obedience to his stupid orders.

[MichiganVote]

13. Then as now...

There was more going on at Kent State that day than students being fired upon

http://www.spectacle.org/595/kent.html

[rzemanfl]

30. In Madison, Wisconsin, probably 1970, could be '71, I was in

a group of several thousand people marching on Bascom Hill one evening from the direction of what was then Lot 60 (essentially coming onto the campus from the back way). We were met by two or three truckloads of National Guard troops with rifles. Tear gas was fired and just then a squall came through with strong winds that held the tear gas down to around knee level and blew it back toward the guardsmen. Seeing this, the crowd broke into a run, charging toward the National Guardsmen depite their rifles and bayonets. They got back into their trucks and hightailed it out of there in reverse. Had it not been for the sound and quick thinking of their commander this could have really gotten ugly. As it was, a few idiots started breaking windows in campus buildings, etc.

In those days I was much more afraid of the Madison police than of the National Guard, who, after all were just draft-dodgers like the rest of us.

[deutsey]

14. I think some (perhaps many) would have problems with that and would refuse

I also think that there would be those who would follow orders without batting an eye, either because they are "just following orders" or because they're tired of us unpatriotic vermin dirtying up their beautiful country.

"COP KILL A CREEP! pow pow pow." F. Zappa, 1968

Also by Zappa, from the same album ("We're only in it for the money"):

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

Ever take a minute just to show a real emotion
In between the moisture cream & velvet facial lotion?
Ever tell your kids you're glad that they can think?
Ever say you loved 'em? Ever let 'em watch you drink?
Ever wonder why your daughter looked so sad?
It's such a drag to have to love a plastic Mom & Dad

Mama! Mama!
Your child was killed in the park today
Shot by the cops as she quietly lay
By the side of the creeps she knew . . .
They killed her too.

[bowens43]

16. Yes. With out hesitation.

[kentuck]

19. They did at Kent State...

Yes, they would, without hesitation, if ordered ....unfortunately...imo..

[Ironpost]

20. Kent State comes to mind

[oneighty]

21. Indeed they would Mopaul

"Blank cartridges should never be used against a mob,nor should a volley be fired over the heads of the mob even if there is little danger of hurting persons in the rear. Such things will be regarded as an admission of weakness, or an attempt to bluff and may do much more harm than good."

Douglas MacArthur
Basic field manual Vol VII, part 3. Domestic disturbances, War Department, August 1, 1935. (An edition for National Guards was titled: Aid to Civil Authorities.

This is the man that led the Army against the Bonus Marchers.

And he is the man whose great ego (I shall return) likely extended WW2 by a year or so.

Of course they would fire on us.

180

[Joanne98]

22. Only the Christian troops would.

[corbett]

23. All Good Points - Remember This

Oftentimes, the orders to fire on unarmed civilians have the deepest effect on the regiment and company commanders. In those situations, those commanders have the duty to brandish their own firearm and aim it at the soldier who hesitates at the order to fire. When placed in that situation, many hesitant soldiers will fire in order to preserve themselves. That is, perhaps, just as tragic as any general who orders that his own people be attacked.

[no safe haven]

25. Does the Civil War count?

How about Selma?
Pinkertons thugs firing on striking miners?
Like most countries, America has been killing its own for centuries, whether in uniform or not.

[Modem Butterfly]

72. The Confederacy s a good example of domestic enemies

Those people were trying to destroy the United States. And throughout the Civil War there were many instances of soldiers on both sides being reluctant to shoot for fear of hitting a friend or relative.

During the Civil Rights era, National Guard and Reserve troops were insrumental in protecting civilians from other civilians.

[Tinoire]

27. You better believe it- enemies foreign and domestic

Just convince them that liberals are a danger to the state and there you have it.

Military

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

and for commissioned officers:


"I, _____ (SSN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

Police (this one is CA's but they all have it)
Article 20, Section 3 of the California Constitution states: "Members of the Legislature, and all public officers and employees, executive, legislative, and judicial, except such inferior officers and employees as may be by law exempted, shall, before they enter upon the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation:

"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter."

http://thevop.com/oath.html

[Hugin]

28. In China troops from other regions...

were deliberately brought in from other
regions to do the dirty work.

This is one time I'm glad we have a
fairly homogeneous society.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

29. You betcha... See the draft riots in 1862 and 1863,

Various labor conflicts (mostly cops here), there was an incident during the depression (someone help me out here) where US troops were ordered to fire upon civilians and did... Oh, yeah. And the American Indian (most especially after the "annexation" of Mexican territories in which the promise of making all indigenous peoples citizens in a year...

Sad but that's the country we live in.

[Hugin]

31. "an incident during the depression" links to the Bonus Army.

There were several incidents during the depression.

Most notably there was the attack on the WWI veterans
who were camped out in DC in a tent city there.

Herbert Hoover ordered it and Gen. Douglas MacArthur
was responsible for it. (I always wondered why
Truman WWI veteran had no use for MacArthur.)

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,111104_BonusArmy,00.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

37. That's the one I was trying to remember. It was Pershing, wasn't

it?

[Hugin]

46. Another link...

http://wappingersschools.org/JohnJayHS/students/ap/ap33/

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Thanks for the links!

[Generic Other]

98. Bonus Army 1932

At the end of World War One, as the American Expeditionary Force was being demobilised, a grateful U.S. government passed legislation that authorised the payment of cash bonuses to war veterans, adjusted for length of service, in 1945. However, the Crash of 1929 wiped out many veterans' savings and jobs, forcing them out into the streets. Groups of veterans began to organise and petition the government to pay them their cash bonus immediately. In the spring of 1932, during the worst part of Depression, a group of 300 veterans in Portland, Oregon organised by an ex-Sergeant named Walter Walters named itself the 'Bonus Expeditionary Force' or 'Bonus Army,' and began travelling across the country to Washington to lobby the government personally. By the end of May over 3,000 veterans and their families had made their way to the capital. Most of them lived in a collection of makeshift huts and tents on the mud flats by the Anacostia River outside of the city limits. Similar ghettos could be found sheltering the migrant unemployed and poor outside any large city in the United States and were called 'Hoovervilles.' By July, almost 25,000 people lived in Anacostia, making it the largest Hooverville in the country...

<snip>
As the weather and the rhetoric grew hotter, concern grew that the Bonus Army Marchers could cause widespread civil disorder and violence. There were scuffles with the police and some Senators' cars were stoned by unruly crowds of veterans...President Hoover considered the Bonus Army Marchers a threat to public order and his personal safety. Contrary to tradition, he did not attend the closing ceremonies for that session of Congress on July 16 and many members left the Capitol building through underground tunnels to avoid facing the demonstrators outside.

Many of the Marchers left Washington after Congress adjourned, but there were still over 10,000 angry, restless veterans in the streets. On July 28, 1932, two veterans were shot and killed by panicked policemen in a riot at the bottom of Capitol Hill. This provided the final stimulus. Hoover told Ralph Furley, the Secretary of War, to tell General Douglas Macarthur, then the Army Chief of Staff, that he wished the Bonus Army Marchers evicted from Washington. Troops from nearby Forts Myer and Washington were ordered in to remove the Bonus Army Marchers from the streets by force.

One battalion from the 12th Infantry Regiment and two squadrons of the 3rd Cavalry Regiment (under the command of Major George S. Patton, who had taken over as second in command of the Regiment less than three weeks earlier) concentrated at the Ellipse just west of the White House. At 4:00 p.m. the infantrymen donned gas masks and fixed bayonets, the cavalry drew sabres, and the whole force (followed by several light tanks) moved down Pennsylvania Avenue to clear it of people.

Against the advice of his assistant, Major Dwight D. Eisenhower, Macarthur had taken personal command of the operation. President Hoover had ordered Macarthur to clear Pennsylvania Avenue only, but Macarthur immediately began to clear all of downtown Washington, herding the Marchers out and torching their huts and tents. Tear gas was used liberally and many bricks were thrown, but no shots were fired during the entire operation. By 8:00 p.m. the downtown area had been cleared and the bridge across the Anacostia River, leading to the Hooverville where most of the Marchers lived, was blocked by several tanks.

That evening Hoover sent duplicate orders via two officers to Macarthur forbidding him to cross the Anacostia to clear the Marchers' camp, but Macarthur flatly ignored the President's orders, saying that he was 'too busy' and could not be bothered by people coming down and pretending to bring orders.' Macarthur crossed the Anacostia at 11:00 p.m., routed the marchers along with 600 of their wives and children out of the camp, and burned it to the ground.

http://www.islandnet.com/~citizenx/bonus.html

[noamnety]

32. They would do it and enjoy it

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1120-13.htm





http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1213-08.htm

[Modem Butterfly]

34. No. I don't believe that for a second

The guardsmen at Kent State were not much more than scared kids themselves, pumped up by the governer and placed in a position where they were told they were facing a threat to their lives and they were ordered to shoot, yet only a small number of guardsmen actually DID shoot.

The members of our military are not mindless automatons. Given an order that is obviously illegal, most will not carry it out. Moreover, I don't believe many of their commanding officers would even convey such an order. If our military were ordered to shoot down other Americans, people who are likely friends, relatives, and just plain fellow citizens, you would see a revolt of massive propotions. I think it would probably result in a coup d'etat. I believe that it would literally tear our nation apart at the seams, and in the resulting chaos, those responsible for trying to use our military in such a way would likely lose their liberty and perhaps their very lives.

No, we do not face a threat from the men and women in our armed forces. If recent history is any guide, they face a threat from us sending them into dangerous positions with uncertain missions and substandard or missing equipment and supplies. We have abused our military and our reserve military to the point of breaking. In using them to set foreign policy rather than defend America we have broken their faith in us. WE'RE the biggest threat to them, not the other way around.

I would also like to state that the argument that our men and women are just waiting for the orders to kill us is a kick in the teeth to anyone who's ever worn that uniform. Veterans and active duty military and reservists should be our greatest allies at this time. We do not help them nor do we help ourselves by fostering suspicion and hostility.

[cynatnite]

87. Well Said, Modem!

My hubby and I are vets. He is a desert storm vet.

I absolutely loathe what this regime has done to our military. It's disgusting. The army I was in we prided ourselves on the fact that we wore a uniform to be proud of and serving our country was a privilige. We worked at the highest level of professionalism and integrity.

I agree with everything you have said, Modem. I don't honestly believe the military would do what some fear. If it even was coming close to that point a lot would have to happen and I'm of the belief majority in this country wouldn't allow civilians and military to get into such dire straits.

My daughter is in high school and is a member of the Jr. Navy ROTC. Once a week she wears a uniform and on occasion they do public service, march in parades and various other activities.

We take great pride in our military service and all it has given us, but it is offensive when the military as a whole is taken down to such a degree and compared to nothing more than thugs with guns.

[DenverDem]

35. Funny all you white folks forget about Jackson State.

<http://www.may41970.com/Jackson%20State/jackson_state_may_1970.htm>

[deutsey]

49. We forget lots of things. Fred Hamptom comes to mind...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAhamptonF.htm

[DenverDem]

50. Yes, the list is virtually endless. . .

yet we persisit, "It can't happen here".

[Modem Butterfly]

59. Those were civilians shooting, not the military

The police were replaced by the military.

[Mairead]

36. Yes, they would

As Stanley Milgram demonstrated conclusively,

"A substantial proportion of people do what they are told to do, irrespective of the content of the act and without limitations of conscience, so long as they perceive that the command comes from a legitimate authority."

(emph. mine)

Phil Zimbardo had to stop after only 6 days what had been planned as a 2-week experiment because of the psychological changes in the participants:

"Our planned two-week investigation into the psychology of prison life had to be ended prematurely after only six days because of what the situation was doing to the college students who participated. In only a few days, our guards became sadistic and our prisoners became depressed and showed signs of extreme stress."

Palo Alto high-school teacher Ron Jones experimentally re-created almost overnight a fascist environment, with its rigid obedience to authority, at his school (see his account)

I used to have (but have since lost to disc failure) data from a survey conducted in the '70s by a naval officer. He found that about 25% of Marines would fire on a group of peacefully-assembled US citizens if so ordered (their responses echoed Milgram's findings: they said that the responsibility would be the officer's who ordered it, not theirs for their obedience).

And, allegedly (I don't know how real this is), another naval officer did another survey of Marines about 10 years ago and found that about 25% would be willing to shoot people who refused to give up their privately-owned firearms in response to a confiscation order.

[The Zanti Regent]

38. My nephews said they would

They are in the Army and Marines. I asked them point blank if they were ordered to open fire on American civilians, would they and they both said YES.

They also said it would be thier Christian duty to obey their officers no matter what.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Their "CHRISTIAN" duty???!

What the jell does Christianity have to do with orders from a militarty leader????? Damn. This crap is unreal.

[lala_rawraw]

64. Christian Duty?

Tell them to read the bible and point out hell and murder. I love Christians who have never read the bible. How sick, pathetic, and tragic.

[MountainLaurel]

74. OBEDIENCE

To a higher authority, whether it's God, government, or their parents. It's pounded in their heads from the time they're sitting in the church nursery.

[Ladyhawk]

77. As an ex-fundy, I can vouch that this is true.

Most fundamentalist sects have far too much confidence in authority figures.

[MountainLaurel]

92. Me too

And that's why I thought of it -- I was a questioner (will I see my dog in heaven? why is interracial marriage a sin? do I have to be submissive even if my husband's an idiot who drinks up his paycheck?) and that clearly was against the rules.

An interesting aside to this issue: I once read an interview with a convicted child molester who regularly targeted children from strict disciplinarian homes. Why? They had it beat into them from an early age that they were to do anything an adult asked of them, and they were too frightened of what their parents would do to them if they told.

[Ladyhawk]

125. Maybe that's why I got tagged. :(

I was a victim at age 8 in my authoritarian Southern Baptist Church. I was afraid to tell my parents and it went on for a few months until my mother finally dragged it out of me.

I was also a questioner. I asked those same questions, too! Will I see my dog in heaven? And when my mother used the "unequally yoked" bible quote to explain why interracial marriage was wrong, I asked her if she considered black people to be "unequal." I also told her she had taken the scripture totally out of context (and she had). I never heard another word about interracial relationships being wrong. :) I never had an alcoholic husband, so I didn't ask the last question. But more questions were to follow until the whole damn religion just fell to pieces.

Now I feel embarrassed for people who actually believe those ridiculous stories and base their whole lives upon them. I feel embarrassed for them and part of me thinks, "Jeez, you're stupid. Grow the fuck up." Of course, biblical brainwash isn't that easily dislodged, so I keep my mouth shut and hope they'll someday figure it out for themselves. Even though I was brainwashed from birth, I sometimes feel I should have figured it out for myself earlier than I did. I think this is one of the reasons I feel so hostile toward fundies. If I figured it out, they should be able to, also...at least, that's what I'm thinking.

[MountainLaurel]

133. I'm so sorry Ladyhawk

:hug:

I think a related issue is that of socialization of girls. A book called "The Gift of Fear" really hits this point. Girls are always taught to be nice and polite, or no one will like them, so they tend to ignore their instincts when it comes to dangerous situation. Of course, that's totally irrelevant for a powerless 8-year-old, but it raises an interesting point.

I was lucky in so many ways, because my parents didn't attend the same church I did, so there was no such indoctrination at home. Hell, at one point my father was semiseriously thinking of converting to Islam.

But I've always had this oldest-child, it's-gotta-be-my-fault guilt complex (too many years of internalizing my parents' fights), so I think that's why I stayed there so long even without parental pushing: I was terrified of going to hell, to the point where I had panic attacks if I suddenly couldn't find my mother -- I was convinced the rapture had occurred. But my parents had always emphasized that I WAS GOING TO COLLEGE, so the fundie ideals of getting married when you're 18 and spitting out kids immediately were never going to be options. That and the local public library, which gave me the education my school didn't provide so much, gave me critical thinking tools that most other people in my social milieu didn't get, which saved me in a way that Jesus never could.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. Your nephews are the exception and not the rule

Clearly, they are deeply, deeply fucked up. No offense intended.

[The Zanti Regent]

91. Their commanders told them that Bush is a decorated fighter pilot

AND

Gore deserted.

They also say that their commanders told them that the Swifties lies were the truth and Kerry DID shoot himslef in the leg to get out of the Navy!

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. WHAT IF "WE THE PEOPLE" were lead by the likes of GENERAL Wes Clark?

Or Col. David Hackworth? OR the NUMEROUS military leaders who are against this war? Here's articles about them >>>>>>

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book60a.htm


Would the military follow them? OR their idiot-in-chief? And, would people like Wes Clark and Hackworth lead a revolt against the current government? They know how dangerous they are. :shrug: I think without some anti-war Generals/military, our soldiers would kill us in a heartbeat.

[Modem Butterfly]

48. Liberal or not, you do NOT check your brains at the door...

...when you get your uniform. You are expected to follow orders, but you are also expected to use your judgement. Following an illegal order puts YOUR ass on the line just as much as the guy that gave you the order. And I don't believe for a second that most COs would be blood-thirsty and stupid enough to convey such as order. You would see an armed REVOLT within our military. They aren't some mass of armed green automatons, they are our brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and neighbors and co-workes and fellow parishoners. They're the kid that used that used to cut your grass, they're the girls that sold you girlscout cookies. They're the kids that broke your window with the baseball that summer, and they're the kids that you bought beer for when you got your first fake ID.

And let me tell you something else: They are reading and posting on DU.

[rzemanfl]

114. Well said. Bush is the enemy of the military, the people aren't. nt

[indepat]

41. Boot-jacked-types have firing on those who would dissent for years now

[dogman]

51. Considering the statistic thrown out during the Iraq War that ten

percent of combat troops were not US citizens, I would say quite probable. Add to that the mercenary troops at the government's disposal and the Civil War, why not? The US sent Kurds into Fallujah. Don't forget McVeigh and the militia movements. The hate that the GOP has fostered in America makes us ripe for this type of event.

[Kansas Wyatt]

62. Would they dare do it to just a million people?

Never, they could never hide the bodies and they do not have the prison space. Never mind the deafening outrage from the entire World.

It is much easier to keep people poor and poorer, enduring constant oppression, living in fear, fighting with each other, and distracted by frivolous issues. It takes the bite out of the bark, when people are beaten down, pillaged, raped, and left broke.

Why kill people, when you can destroy them?

[lala_rawraw]

63. There is

Also the reality that FEMA has its own "emergency" troops. Hard to tell who is who when guns are pointing toward you. So they cut cops, safety workers, health workers, and the military is shamed into non-recruitment. So who is it that would actually "hold the fort"? That question keeps me up at night.

[Stirk]

66. Many would do it with gusto.

[Greybnk48]

67. Yes

As noted, some of us have seen it happen--Kent State.

[amazona]

68. of course they would

I noticed the very first answer was the one that spring to my mind -- Remember Kent State.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[MountainLaurel]

73. They have before

Kent State
Blair Mountain
Comstock
post-WWI shantytowns

Why would now be any different?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Without blinking an eye.

Soldiers don't carry guns to make a fashion statement.

[Malva Zebrina]

76. Sure they would

and they would only be following orders and totally absolved of any crime.

Following orders--what else could they do if they want to go to college or bring in extra money to feed their family? :eyes:

And if they do ever happen to kill their own citizens, we might be encouraged to "support the troops" and send them toothbrushes, tampax, and cookies. After all, it would not be their fault they had to follow orders.

People will hang yellow ribbons from the trees, and paste it on their cars.

[Starlight]

116. We've already been labeled as "terrorist sympathizers."

They'd be given medals for making an important bust and keeping the patriotic Americans safe. :nuke:

[Donna Zen]

82. They've got the most guns:

I thank those who remember Kent State and Jackson State--usually forgotten.

The ROTC building was an old WWII temporary barracks that had never been torn down. When it was burning, and we on the ground have often heard that it was not students who set that fire, the students cut the fire hoses. Anyway...

The National Guard who were mostly from a nearby town were all over the campus by Sunday. We visited with them, and noticed that in many cases the weapons they had were not standard issue. The usual went on: flowers in gun barrels, chants about how while they were standing there, a hippie was screwing their wives. You know--talking trash.

Sunday, a sit-in on the library lawn was staged in protest of the secret bombing of Cambodia, but we were under a curfew. Negotiations went on ending in an agreement that we could stay past curfew. When that hour arrived, so did the National Guard with orders for us to move, the scene ended with running and shouting and bayonets in the stomachs of several students.

The following day, May 4th, was beautiful and sunny, and filled with the news that we could not hold a noon demonstration on campus. The leaders said that it was our campus, so fuck off. The students gathered, the NG surrounded, tear gas flew, the students threw it back, and then came the order--and it was a definite order--in formation--and they shot directly into the crowd. I was on the top of a hill overlooking the demonstration, my roommate had just smoked a joint with someone who would soon be dead, the man I would marry was running when the student running beside him suddenly had a bullet and blood come out of his throat.

All in all, I've always considered the willingness on the part of the National Guard to shot us as piece of the class struggle. We were the kids with the student deferments, they were for the most part kids about our age whose way out of 'Nam was by scratching backs for a rare spot in the guard. We had long hair, smoked reefer, and partied til we dropped. And while they obviously wanted to avoid the Asian debacle, they didn't want to admit it or be associated with people like us. Our brand. Our beliefs. Our chants of "up against the wall motherfucker. Our feminism. Our Civil Rights movement.

We and they and the guns. On that day, after I arrived home to a setting where my neighbors had hoisted American flags, mumbled that they should have killed more of us, and rocked on their porches with guns on their knees, I knew they had the most guns. AND...they would use them.

PS. Fuck Neil Young--he made out big time on that song and wouldn't donate one fucking cent to the Kent defense fund.

[no safe haven]

94. Great post

30 years on and the memory of that shite is still so very close to the surface, for those who were around in the day.

[neweurope]

85. Would GIs fire on the people? But yes. So would the German Army,

the French Army, the Turkish Army or the army of damn near any country on earth I can think of.

Before anything else a soldier is taught to obey an order. Maybe there are a few soldiers here who honestly wouldn't - who would refuse to obey (risking all the dirty consequences) or shoot in the air - but the soldiers in general would. No doubt about it. And they have in the past numerous times.

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[jonnyblitz]

88. in a heartbeat. nt

[ArkDem]

93. 'Blue and green and camo'

Somebody call the FASHION POLICE!

[JVS]

95. That's what the national guard is for according to my nat. guard buddy

regular army isn't supposed to do that

[ComerPerro]

96. Why not? What would stop them?

All it would take would be massive brainwashing, dehumanizing their targets and making them believe that it is a righteous course of action.

that's what the army does.

[Swamp Rat]

101. yes n/t

:(

[Toucano]

103. Yes n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. What I heard in Beijing was that the crowds in Tiananmen Square

were dispersed (and fired upon) by troops from outside the city. Too many Beijing-based soldiers were joining the protestors.

We have historical precedents in this country during the Hoover administration, when U.S. troops fired upon "the Bonus Army," unemployed World War I veterans who wanted prepayment of a bonus that had been promised for 1940.

[femme.democratique]

117. Freeper cops / soldiers would as long as they were told that it was ....

...just a bunch if libruls!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. Don't You Think Our Time Would Be Better Spent

Electing a Democratic House and Senate than fantasizing about revolutions....

[sffreeways]

126. Congress asked this question

a few years ago. They did a study and asked troops, young ones, whether they would fire on unarmed American civilians if they were ordered to. 73% said yes. I had about 8 Marines at my house hanging out with my son a couple of years ago and I asked them the same question. My son said yes without a second thought and so did two others. The rest weren't sure what they would do. Needless to say I was very disturbed but it was the training he was getting in the Marine Corp. He believed he was to follow orders period. I asked if this was an illegal order and he said how would he know. Gave me some insight into how the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture happened.

[Lisabtrucking]

127. I believe they would, our soldiers are trained to take orders, just

look at what happen in Abu Ghraib.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/021105J.shtml

"snip"
Mr. Passaro, a former Army Special Forces soldier from North Carolina was hired by the C.I.A. in 2003 to capture fighters from the Taliban and Al Qaeda and question them at a base at Asadabad, in northeast Afghanistan.

He was charged in June with four counts of assault, accused of using his hands and feet and a large flashlight to beat a prisoner named Abdul Wali over two days. Mr. Wali, who had turned himself in to the American military after learning he was under suspicion of firing rockets at the base, died in his cell on June 21, 2003. Mr. Passaro is not charged in his deat

"snip"
"He's saying to the government, 'If you put me on trial, I'll drag in a lot of your questionable past statements,' " Mr. Greenberger said. "It could make the trial very embarrassing for the government."

[bush_is_wacko]

135. I think SOME would, but a guarantee MANY would BOLT before doing so!

That type of order would MOST DEFINITELY end bushitlers reign of terror over this country. Unfortunately, even if he was DELUSIONAL enough to give that order, the real president's would NEVER allow it to happen.

I know that it sounds like I would support such a thing. I WOULDN'T, but that would get rid of bush, his administration, and ANY other person stupid enough to back such a thing!

If something like that were to EVER occur WWIII would commence within hours.

[diamond14]

137. 67 SHOTS fired by N.G. at Kent State students, no one 'bolted' (PHOTOS)

67 bullets were found after the massacre....

NONE of the National Guard "bolted"...13 full-time Kent State students were SHOT, 4 were KILLED, several were permanently MAIMED, one was paralyzed for life.....


http://www.may41970.com/chronology.htm
http://alancanfora.com/index.asp


The Kent State Massacre, May 4, 1970

[bush_is_wacko]

139. I know this. My uncle was there. Another uncle was serving in Vietnam at

the time. I am saying that I believe, as do both of the uncles I just referred to, that THIS situation is going to lead to far bigger protests and it won't be just students. It will be mothers and fathers, grandparents, babies and small children and other veterans that our troops will have to face down and make a decision to shoot.

The number of people against this "regime" and that is was it is, and they wide variety of social status, age, race, and religion is going to force any military to have to look into the faces of all those people and make a judgment for themselves whether or not they are willing to kill what represents their families, neighbors, and their fellow military members, policemen, firefighters, lawyers, teachers, you name it.

I also think our military is different than it was back then. They are comprised of men and WOMEN! They have precedent. They know we have not always been successful in war. They LOVE this country and confronting such a large mix of what represents America is not going to be easy. They are ALSO armed with non-lethal weapons that were not available to them in the past. I think many of them would choose to use those non-lethal weapons, but I still think MANY would choose to walk away.

BTW, we are talking about something that hasn't occurred in this country for what 30 years? And today's soldiers are different than that era's soldiers they have grown up in a world that at the very least TRIED not to be racists. They have grown up surrounded and raised by STRONG women with real rights and opinions. They have almost certainly been around homosexuals and hopefully have some reality based views on homosexuality. There are some very strong indications that our current military has been trained to empathize more with those they are surrounded by. In Vietnam our soldiers were not "winning hearts and minds."

I don't for a minute believe our military is not tough and well trained, but I do think they are trained to act different than they were historically. there is some evidence that they have tried to rebel in small numbers agianst this war. the National Gaurd members have been effectively drafted in large number's and used in ways they have NEVER been used before. That may be a deterrrant to any attempt by this administration to quell our voices. Not to mention the fact that IF they were to shoot Americans, American "dissidents" would INCREASE ten fold!

I know this scenario sounds really far fetched at the moment, but I have noticed this movement is MUCH bigger in numbers and represented by far more than just young college student's and racially motivated groups, partly because of the growth in our population worldwide, but also because we have the history of Vietnam and the concurrent civil rights movement behind our arguments. Up until then America was pretty darn successful in it's war endeavors.

[Skidmore]

147. It's been done before. It'll happen again.

[Xithras]

151. Don't forget the foreign soldiers

Since 2002 more than 20,000 foreign born migrants have been inducted into the military with promises of accelerated and guranteed American citizenship. Since the US military has been whining about its failure to reach its recruiting goals, the Bush administration has undertaken an unprecedented effort to recruit foreign citizens into the American military machine. Today somewhere between 6% and 8% of our military is made up of these foreign born soldiers, and one estimate I recently saw put that number at 25% by 2015.

Would the typical American soldier fire on his own people? I don't think so. Would a foreign inductee with no American friends or relatives, who is facing the threat of deportation if he refuses an order, fire on American citizens? I'd like to think not out of humanitarian reasons, but you couldn't pay me to be in the first crowd that tests that theory.