White Privilege: What is it? How do whites take advantage of it?

[Modem Butterfly]

And what should people do about it?


To my mind, white privilege is the natural advantage that white people have in a racist society. For instance, my partner is white. One year he forgot to renew his car tags on time. He was pulled over three times and given a warning each time. He renewed his tags three months late and the fee was waved. Meanwhile, one of my co-workers, who is black, was pulled over the day after his birthday, which was in the middle of the month, for having an expired car tag (note: GA car tags are denoted by month, not day, so the cop had to run his license plate). He was literally pulling into the tag office. He was given a ticket and a hefty fine for having an expired tag.

My partner and my co-worker are the same age. They are both male. They both drive quite cautiously. But my partne is white, and through no fault or design of his own, has an extra advantage in our society.

http://www.whiteprivilege.com/

[cobaindrain]

1. it exists, I've benefitted from it, so have many others

from getting out of tickets to employment. However if you're well educated and well connected, then you have a leg up on everybody, doesn't matter if you're black or white.

anybody who doesn't believe it is in denial though, though why would whites do anything about it and cede power in this society? nobody is going to jump through hoops and compromise there own success just to do what's technically right. Whites have it better in this society, don't ask, don't tell, don't make a big deal about it.

[CityZen-X]

2. As Uncle Frank Once Stated!

"You know people, I never wished I was black, but there have been a whole lot of times I wished I wasn't white!"

(Trouble Coming Everyday) by Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention.

[whistle]

3. Take a look at any recorded videos of police brutality....

...toward minorities and our eyes should tell us what white privilege means in our society. It is systemic at all levels of authority including police departments across the country and the military in Iraq. I could not agree with you more.

[murray hill farm]

4. no doubt about it!

Just being white gives an unsaid advantage in everything you do every day of your life. Apply for welfare when u are having a tough time...see how different that experience is if you are white..and even more so if you are grammatically correct and white. If you are white..u are viewed as having a temporary tough time...if you are black, that isn't seen the same...it is seen as a life style..and that is how u are treated. This occurs every day and it everything that is part of everyday life...banking? You bet? Shopping? Racism is everywhere in attitude. It may be better for blacks who are doing well in life...but it is the same ole crap if you are not doing well.

[trumad]

5. Of course that's what we're talking about

some are trying to distort the word privledge to try and make the playing field even between white guys and non white guys. It's a straw man and nothing more.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Agreed.

It's beyond doubt that such a thing as "white privilege" exists. Whites did nothing to earn this privilege, and desired or not, they benefit from it. What we need to decide is how to define it and what to do about it.

[Burma Jones]

7. It takes so many forms

There's the overt form evidenced by brutality and DWB. Police brutality does indeed cross racial lines, although I haven't heard of it crossing class lines. Having lived in Westchester County, I can honestly say that Green always trumps Black versus White......

There's the more hidden aspects too, such as tossing resumes out of consideration if certain names or colleges appear. There's also the built-in advantage of being raised in a white family, and thus being well indoctrinated into the white culture, the dominant US culture.

As Chris Rock put it (paraphrased): I am a rich man, but there's not a single white man that would trade places with me, is there?

As a PhD (Computer Science) possessing, White, Heterosexual, Married with children, Male, I do not have to prove shit to anyone and I breeze through just about every bureaucratic obstacle placed before me. Without the education, life is tougher. My education has helped me to become affluent. My being white helped me to get that education because I was raised with the expectation of going to college etc. What many of my caucasian brothers fail to recognize is that not everybody, yes, even with Affirmative Action, gets the same breaks we do.

[ultraist]

16. Very insightful new beawr!

I think your point of having mastered the ways of the white dominated society is very relevant, as you wrote, "...as a White, Heterosexual, Married with children, Male, I do not have to prove shit to anyone and I breeze through just about every bureaucratic obstacle placed before me. Without the education, life is tougher. My education has helped me to become affluent. My being white helped me to get that education because I was raised with the expectation of going to college etc. "

I have no doubts that coming from a white family, I gained advantages over people of color with regard to manuevering through the system. It was a breeze from me to get high marks in college (Phi Betta Kappa) as I knew the white language, the white paradigm, & the anglo worldview so well. Even our text books and tests are biased towards whites.

It's pretty easy to accept that those of us who are white automatically have advantages in a white dominated society.

[vpigrad]

8. "Stay away from cops, because they hate blacks...

even the black ones hate blacks," was something my father told me about 55 years ago, and it is true. I've seen quite a few unprovoked attacks on blacks by one of the thugs in blue, but I have never seen one of those thugs attack a white person. The job just seems to attract racists.

[malaise]

9. Read

The Racial Contract by Charles Mills. The social contract was between rich white men but all white men still benefit from the arrangement.

[UdoKier]

10. There is a semantic problem.

One group being at a disadvantage doesn't confer "privilege" on another group.

Privilege means getting something BETTER than then norm, something special. Rich whites like Bush enjoy boundless privilege. Middle-class white get some privilege. Poor whites have no privilege, but they're less likely than blacks to suffer discrimination.

Blacks of every economic strata can suffer discrimination, but even among blacks, it's not meted out evenly. A poor black person is obviously much worse off than a Michael Powell.


I don't know how it is that the word "privilege" has been perverted to mean "simply treated as a human being" but that is not the meaning of the word. It implies luxury, all kinds of benefits and favors, NOT the big pile of nothing poor whites are faced with.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. I disagree

See my example in the first post. My co-worker was being held to the letter of the law. My partner was given several passes. The only difference is their races. And THAT is prvilege,

[UdoKier]

18. Sorry, but privilege does not mean absence of abuse or discrimination.

It means something EXTRA.

YOu can say that whites are advantaged, over blacks, but that is not the same as privilege.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Thanks for making my point

White people get lots of extras for being white. They are privileged. My co-worker was held to the letter of the law. He was not discriminated against. My partner received special treatment. He received privileges my co-worker did not.

[UdoKier]

22. No, it's normal to get a break on such a ticket.

Your friend of color should have gotten that courtesy as well.

[Modem Butterfly]

23. LOL

Now that makes my day.

[UdoKier]

24. You've never gotten a warning for a tail light?

I think your friend who was ticketed was unfairly harassed, especially if he was on his way into the DMV.

It may be hard to prove in the courts, but I think he was a victim of discrimination.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. Nope

I've never cried my way out of a ticket, either. And when my plates expire, as they did last month, I had to pay a hefty fine.

When my partner lost his ID before a business trip last week, he got to fly without presenting photo ID. He even got to come back, too.

I wonder what would happen if I tried that?

[Stop_the_War]

11. we live in a terrible racist society indeed....n/t

[BiggJawn]

12. Damn! It's just like the "Continental Breakfast" I never eat!

All these years I've had this "White Privilege" and never knew it or used it.

Oh, OK, so the cops have never done "The Rodney" on my ass whan they pulled me over for driving a POS Hoopdy that was shedding parts. they sure as hell didn't look the other way, either.

If it's such a pain in the ass to be Black while Whites "get all the breaks", why aren't there more black suicides? I can't imagine anyone living though WORSE than some of the shit I've been through. Damn, I even wanted to end it all a few times myself...

And tell me, aren't these "White Privilege" discussions just another way of playing the Race Card?
To tell me that I get "breaks" just because of my white skin is just as dissgusting to me as someone claiming "The Bell Curve" is all true, IMO.

[ultraist]

14. Excellent topic and website!

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm
"White privilege, like any social phenomenon, is complex. In a white supremacist culture, all white people have privilege, whether or not they are overtly racist themselves. There are general patterns, but such privilege plays out differently depending on context and other aspects of one's identity (in my case, being male gives me other kinds of privilege). Rather than try to tell others how white privilege has played out in their lives, I talk about how it has affected me. "

It's not always easy to identify how this unearned privilege manifests in my life. I know in a general sense, that I am treated differently than my sisters of color. Whether I enter a store, get pulled over by the police, apply for a bank loan, or meet with my children's teachers, there is an unsaid, but well defined preexisting notion of who I am or my worthiness.

White privilege can be very insideous or overt. An example of an overt experience I had was when we took our kids to a farmer's market. My son, who is African American, went off to check out xbox games. We had given each of the kids 20 bucks to blow. My daughter, who is white, went off to look at other things with my nieces (who are white).

As we approached the booth where my son was, we found that he was being accused of shoplifting. The booth keeper did not realize we were his family when I asked what was going on, because we are white. She was very hostile and accusatory. I asked my son to show us what he bought and how much change he had. (I knew that one game and the change he had, added up). At this point, she realized that she was not just dealing with a black, but whites. The dynamics suddenly shifted. She totally dropped it.

It was so blatant. I told her that she be ashamed of treating a 12 year old child is such an unfair and racist manner; she just looked stunned.

We live in NC, but this occured in PA on vacation!

BTW, my kids don't shoplift and have no reason to. We give them their own money to spend and they get quite a lot in money from relatives as gifts.

My daughter has never been accused and it's heartbreaking to see my son get treated as "less than" just because of the color of his skin. It happens quite frequently even though he is an intelligent, articulate, upper middle class suburban kid. He is aware of it and has the attitude, "Success is the best revenge!" I have no doubts he will be very successful in life.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. White privilege:

White privilege is a white juvenile delinquent going before the judge and saying that he has an uncle that owns a business who is going to give him a job and supervise his probation and getting approval for probation, while his black crime partner goes to jail.

White privilege is working through connections in city hall to cut development deals and getting approval for construction which doesn't meet building codes, but nobody in the city will lifts a finger to help protect the unwary homeowner.

White privilege is being allowed to claim that minority construction companies do shoddy work with no one challenging them.

White privilege is having connections to judges through country clubs to get favorable rulings, just in case something goes bad; and getting a seal on the case to avoid the public getting wind of their improprieties.

White privilege is controlling the house and senate at the state and federal level and dismantling regulation that interferes with activities usually enjoyed by whites -- like getting access to public resources.

[ultraist]

17. Great points!

Regardless of class, whites are met with preexisting notions that they are more worthy.

By the same token, blacks who are in the lower economic class, are double whammied with discrimination, both racism and classism.

Even wealthy blacks face obstacles that lower income whites do not. There are cultural and societal mores that dictate this. They do indeed exist.

I was read an article on how racism is even built into our language. What comes to mind when you think black? Evil, darkness, dirty.
What comes to mind when you think white? Pure, clean, holy.

There were many more examples in the article, but I cannot recall them at the moment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. They even have an out for lying.

little white lies, they call it. Meaning lies you have to say in order to avoid hurting someone.

[makhno]

30. Those points are somewhat tangential to race

It seems like each one of them assumes the existence of class or economic connections between participants in addition to supposed racial ties. A Michael Powell or a Vernon Jordan clearly could enjoy some of the same benefits in the situations you describe.

The original poster's example of different outcomes in a similar situation based on the participants' race is more valid.

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. Oh, yeah. Michael Powell got to show just how much power he had.

I agree, that in time, the differences will fade, with all races showing the ability to abuse privileges, but until then, a Vernon Jordan and a Michael Powell are exception, having to reach a zenith before getting the opportunity to do what white punk businessmen from the Rotary Club are free to do everyday.

[QC]

33. Some of those things are also class privilege.

Race, class, gender, and sexuality intersect and interact in such complex ways that it's seldom possible to say that everything is race or everything is class, etc. That's an important point that often gets lost in these discussions.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. The topic is white privilege. The class dominance of the white race

are reinforced, not by class privilege, but by prejudice and discrimination. As evidence, only minorities that will sell-out their own race, ever make it to the top, because they would never be allowed into the inner circle if they didn't recognize that real status quo. And those minorities are only allowed in because of social pressure to allow minority members up at white-only success rungs.

[QC]

44. If you have to lump all white people of all classes into one class

in order to make a point, then the point is probably shaky, as is true of most points that can only stand when propped up by mammoth overgeneralizations like this one.

There's a hell of a difference between Bill Gates and a homeless veteran, or Appalachia and Westchester. It is certainly true that the power structure is made up of white men, but that does not mean that all white men, or even most of them, are part of that power structure.

In other words, there is no such thing as "white class dominance" because there is no such thing as a "white class."

[Modem Butterfly]

47. And yet all white people benefit from white privilege

In other words, there is no such thing as "white class dominance" because there is no such thing as a "white class."

That's the thing about white privilege. It transcends gender, class, and requires no effort on the part of the receiver.

[QC]

51. There are many "white classes."

And I can assure you, having grown up working-class in an affluent environment, that when the beautiful people saw me, in my homemade clothes, with my crooked teeth, getting out of my family's '65 Chevrolet, they did not see a brother. They certainly did not rush to bring me into their circle, tip me off about new business opportunities, invite me to the club, etc. I was not "their kind of people."

Your comments on skin privilege apply equally well to class privilege, it seems. Those who benefit from it do so with no effort at all and without even any awareness of their own advantage. George W. Bush is a prime example, but there are also many on the Left who are lifelong beneficiaries of their class privilege and thus unable to understand why those of us who were not so fortunate consider the issue a fairly important one.

[Modem Butterfly]

57. Imagine how many less doors would have been open to you ...

... if you weren't white.

[QC]

63. That does not negate the reality of class.

Do you see this as some kind of competition or something?

[Modem Butterfly]

73. Nor does it negate the reality that whiteness is a mitigating factor...

...in classism and sexism. It insulates you from much of the bigotry someone who lacks your privilege would experience. It doesn't make you a bad person, but it is an injustice and in order to confront it, we must be able to acknowledge it and discuss it.

[QC]

93. I've got no problem acknowledging and discussing it.

My objection is to the issue being used in a divisive manner, which is the case app. 99% of the time. Telling people who are working two jobs and still falling behind that they are privileged oppressors is a particularly lousy political strategy.

And while we're on the subject of privilege, how do you feel about heterosexual privilege? If you really want to shake things up here, that's always a good one to bring up. ;-)

[Modem Butterfly]

94. I think many do

Take a look at this thread, for one.

Telling people who are working two jobs and still falling behind that they are privileged oppressors is a particularly lousy political strategy.

Gaining from white privilege doesn't necessarily make one an oppressor. And I beleive that whites of any class are capable of understanding, and not perpetuating, white privilege.

And while we're on the subject of privilege, how do you feel about heterosexual privilege?

I have very strong feelings about heterosexual privilege and thought to start a thread on this topic, but we have 9:00 dinner reservations tonight and I won't be able to participate. I was thinking about starting one tomorrow, but if you'd like to start one tonight, or babysit one I start, I wouldn't mind a bit! Just let me know soon!

:)

[QC]

95. We could do that thread tomorrow.

Should be very interesting. ;-)

[Modem Butterfly]

96. Cool! See you tomorrow!

Have a good evening!

:)

[The Backlash Cometh]

100. What is important is:

That if you straighten your teeth and buy a good suit, you can fit in easily, as long as you talk like them and have a proper education.

The crooked tooth, poorly dressed white person may be fighting a class war, but his class warfare, is not what is stopping the individual of color from succeeding. That person of color has one more hurdle to climb and it is discrimination due to color. It becomes even more difficult when he or she has to fight the people at the top who are discriminating against him or her AND the poor white who hates him because there are already too many white people at the top. THe poor white will be resentful that slots that do come available are given to the minority member, but he never once gets upset about the whites at the top who are doing everything to stir the pot by claiming that they HAD to hire from a minority group, which only ensures that that minority member will face hostility that only lessens his chances of success. Yet, if you don't have such a system in place, minority members would never get ahead because people prefer to higher people like themselves. And that means that white managers would prefer to hire white employees if they had to make a choice and they will look for any reason to justify it. This only makes the situation worse all around. Until we have minority managers in place, we won't ever have a system that is self-sustaining.

[The Backlash Cometh]

98. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

QC, your semantics are unimportant to a member of a minority group. Not ALL white drivers get off with just a warning when they get stopped by a cop. Some actually get tickets. But that doesn't lesson the generality that traffic cops are harder on minority drivers than they are on white drivers.

The same thing applies to explain why they aren't properly represented in the halls of Congress.

[QC]

99. And your overgeneralizations and straw men are unimportant

to this member of a particularly despised minority group, so please spare me your misrepresentations of what I have posted here.

It is of course true that cops and courts are harder on minority drivers. Minority defendants are generally more likely to go to jail and generally more likely to get long sentences. White defendants are generally more likely to get rehab and/or probation. No one denies these things.

But pretending that a rich, well-connected white kid getting off has nothing to do with him being rich and well-connected is pure foolishness. Skin privilege is real, but it does not work in a vacuum. Discussing one form of privilege while ignoring all the others doesn't do much to get us at the truth of a situation and is, as a political strategy, counterproductive.

[The Backlash Cometh]

101. You can only see the kinds of factors that affect you, personally.

To a member of a minority group, it's all the same thing because they're hit with both factors.

[QC]

103. But you, of course, see all and know all.

I would say that it's a natural human tendency to think that the things that affect us personally are the most real. We are most aware of them, so they are most immediate to us. Fair enough. That's why we should listen to other people's experiences of the world, something to which you do not seem at all open, which is unfortunate, to say the least.

But enough of that. Tell me, do you think that if Noelle Bush had been Bonnie Faye Turnipseed, a very, very white girl from a trailer park in Chipley, she would have gone to a fancy rehab center after getting busted for forging prescriptions and then gotten sent back to rehab after getting caught with crack hidden in her shoe? Or do you think that being a rich girl whose daddy is the governor and whose uncle and grandpa are presidents might have had something to do with it?

[The Backlash Cometh]

104. I would call that cronyism.

I understand what you're saying. For the sake of this thread, I'll just say that I recognize that we view things by the way they apply to us individually.

[Patiod]

52. DWP = Driving while Poor

As I posted in another thread, I think some of Driving while Black is actually DWP. If you're a cop looking to write tickets, who is going to be a more productive stop - Mr. 1983 Pinto or Mr. 2003 Lexus? Cops aren't dumb. They're going to stop Mr. Pinto, and he'll probably have something amiss - license, registration, insurance, tailight, something.

My SO is white, and he drove a beater for years (it was so bad I've blocked out the year and model). He was stopped each and every time he drove into Lower Merion Township (the heart of Phila's Main Line). When he drove my unimpressive but newish 2001 Olds Alero, zero stops, zero tickets. When he finally got his own ancient BMW (which had been in 6 wrecks and was a mess but still looked good, no tickets.

(edit: It's not all DWP though. Who is going to get stopped first, though, Mr. Blackguy in a Lexus or Mr. Whiteguy in a Lexus? You guess.)

[tishaLA]

68. I'd be willing to bet Mr. Blackguy In a Lexus would

get stopped before Mr. Whiteguy in a Pinto, too. I don't have proof of that. I suspect it's true though. There are just too many anecdotal reports for me to think otherwise.

[Placebo]

19. I really think you'd have to be non-white to know...

what it's like.

[leesa]

21. Or a white female. Most of the time, we don't share this white privilege

stuff. In some ways we do but many times we are honorary non-whites.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. I disagree.

White women gain from white privilege all the time. Here's another example from my office: the majority of folks in my office are black, about 85% or so on my floor. On Friday I went to lunch with five of my coworkers for a birthday. One coworker was white, the rest of us were people of color. We were talking about a grocery store in the area where people often to go for a quick lunch or to resupply their snacks and personal items. Through the course of the conversation, it came out that the white coworker always or almost always has someone carry out her purchases or volunteer, even though she's carrying a small amount of items. None of the rest of us had ever had anyone offer to assist us. As it turns out the white coworker reports that she nearly always has assistance offered to her at the grocery store, even if she's with her husband. None of the rest of us could say the same.

Our white coworker is about the same age as the rest of us, isn't pregnant, isn't particularly good looking, isn't disabled, pregnant, or otherwise less capable of carrying her groceries. But she is white.

[ultraist]

34. Black women are the poorest segment of our society

The poor black women are TRIPLE hit: racism, sexism, classism
Higher income black women are DOUBLE hit: racism and sexism

USCB stats show that white women fare much better than their black counterparts. This is an obvious consequence of better access to opportunity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. All one has to do is look at the percentages of prison population.

That, at least, is a starting point.

[liberalhistorian]

28. Of course white privilege and natural

advantage in this society naturally exists, only those of us who are white usually don't even realize it and have no clue as to how easy most of us really have it on a daily basis compared to minorities. A white friend of mine married to a black woman said that it's like fish swimming in water, the fish take the water for granted and to the fish, the water just IS, they don't even think about it. THAT is what white advantage is. There are so many little things that we don't have to endure just by virtue of being white, and we don't even know it, for the most part.

I notice it when I'm driving with or out with black friends. In a previous job, I made friends with one of my co-workers, a woman who was half-black and half-Cherokee Indian, but to most Americans she looked African-American. When we'd go to lunch or someplace else, the difference I noticed was simply incredible. If she was driving, we'd be pulled over at least half the time for NO REASON. She wasn't speeding or breaking any other traffic laws, or anything. And people in stores, restaurants, etc.-it was unbelievable.

My parents and I had experienced the same thing when they'd invite my mother's black and minority co-workers and friends over to our white neighborhood, and when we were out with said friends. We, as whites, just have no idea, really, just how good even those of us who aren't financially well-off really have it.

[recidivist]

31. "Majority clique privilege" is a better term. The issue is universal.

Goodness knows, the United States has its problems with race, but we are probably today -- after immense struggle -- one of the least racist countries on earth.

More precisely, among multiracial countries with minority groups large enough to matter, we are among the least racist. Countries in which minority groups are almost invisibly small are in a different category.

Europeans used to look down the USA because of our ethnic tensions. That's changed over the past several decades. Western Europe has experienced massive Muslim immigration, the influx of eastern Europeans, and in the case of France and Britain particularly, the development of large nonwhite populations. Suddenly Europe has racial issues probably worse than ours.

But it's not just a white-nonwhite thing by any means. Look at Africa, which is still tribal, or the middle east, which is both tribal and religiously bigoted. Or Japan or China. Or India, which still can't eradicate its caste system. The phenomenon is universal. People are not, by nature, accepting of "the other." Majority groups tend to discriminate.

The White Christian West has, for all its faults, done more to advance the ideal of colorblindness than any other culture. That's a fact. It doesn't mean we've completed the job -- we haven't -- but a little perspective is in order.

[ultraist]

32. Yes, we've made progress but we have a LONG way to go

Of course we have made progress, slavery is not legal. Jim Crow laws were banned in the 1960's. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965.

But guess what? It's still a major social ill of our society and we have a social responsibility to talk about it and deal with it.

Racism AND Classism exist, not to mention sexism and homophobia.

Equal opportunity does not exist. A quick glance at the stats on socio-economic indicators (USCB) is pretty revealing.

Consider for example:
Nat'l poverty rate: 12.5%
Poverty rate of whites: 8% (70% of population is white)
Poverty rate of blacks: 24% (12% of the population is black)

What does that tell us? Does that reflect equal opportunity? I think not!

[Carolinian]

35. Whas it the same cop? If not, your analogy doesn't work IMHO.

[Modem Butterfly]

36. It's not an analgoy but an example

We live in the same county, same city, same neighborhood, so it's quite likely that one of the cops that pulled over my partner pulled over my co-worker. However, since none of the cops that pulled over my partner gave him a ticket (they all gave him warnings) he didn't get their names.

However, both my partner and my co-worker went to the sam tag office. My co-worker, who went the day after his tags expired, was charged the penalty. My partner, who went three MONTHS after his tags expeired, had the penalty waived.

[Carolinian]

40. Sometimes shit just happens. That's all I get from your example.

This thread is just another attempt to stir the anti-white racial pot.

[Modem Butterfly]

41. Oh. Okay.

Sorry to have wasted your time. Move along, nothing to see here.

:eyes:

[DistantWind88]

62. You're trying to inflame feelings and passions

based on ANECDOTES not fact.

[Modem Butterfly]

75. If I were trying to inflame feelings and passions, I would say WAAAHHH!

I'm trying to have a discussion of a well-documented, if much denied phenomenon. If someone simply wants to put their hands over their eyes and ears and say "NOITSNOTNOITSNOTNOITSNOT" then clearly there isn't anything for them to see here.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

37. It depends on where you live if it exists...

There was no such thing as white privilege when I was growing up in Maine. Most people in Maine are white anyhow. My husband got fined $80 for an expired Maine State inspection sticker on his car once. He was never given any warnings. I'm not bitching about it though, because I thought the cop was fair.

[gollygee]

39. White priviledge is the other side of the racism coin

If you agree that black people are treated worse than white people in this society because they're black, I don't see how you can't agree that white people are treated better than black people in this society because they're white.

What should be done about it? Affirmative action and education about this issue. It's obvious even a liberal group of people like we have at DU don't understand this issue.

[QC]

45. And an obsessive, singleminded focus on skin privilege,

to the exclusion of class privilege, serves the interests of the ruling class by dividing the working class along racial lines.

That's the point some of us are trying to make here, not that skin privilege doesn't exist, but that it's not the only form of privilege.

[gollygee]

48. I agree with that

They are both privileges. They're both important to consider. I don't see it as an either/or.

[QC]

50. Precisely. It's not an either/or argument.

Unfortunately, it seems that an awful lot of people here can only deal with either/or situations. Give them more than two options and things fall apart.

[Modem Butterfly]

49. I don't think anyone has a single-minded focus on color here

White privilege is distinct from classism and sexism. Certainly those are worthy topics, but I chose this topic for this thread because I believe white privilege is denied, ignored, and minimized by those it benefits.

[QC]

54. The problem is when we start trying to decide who is the biggest victim

of all, which is where these discussions inevitably lead. It becomes a bizarre sort of competition that results in people who have common interests being driven apart.

There are many kinds of privilege, and they intersect and interact in ways that are far too complex to fit into some simple scheme. For my part, as someone interested in practical political action, it is enough to say that 5% of the country is waging war on the other 95% of us and if we don't act on our common interests, that 5% will win.

[DistantWind88]

43. WAHHHHH

Quit whining. "White privilege" doesn't exist in Japan or China or Korea or Zimbabwe or Nigeria. Move there.

[Modem Butterfly]

46. Yeah, and next time I'll have the brains to be born white

Quit whining. "White privilege" doesn't exist in Japan or China or Korea or Zimbabwe or Nigeria. Move there.

:eyes:

[DistantWind88]

53. Colin Powell, Ron Brown, Barack Obama seem

to have done ok. WAHHHHHH.

[Modem Butterfly]

55. And George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are doing better

So what's your point?

[DistantWind88]

56. What's yours?

Mine is that Blacks and others are doing better in the US than ANYWHERE else.

[Modem Butterfly]

59. Did you not read my post before you responded?

?

[thedailyshow]

60. ahh, so that excuses white privilege then?

[DistantWind88]

61. I don't belive it exsists

It's an excuse.

[gollygee]

65. An excuse for what?

?

[DistantWind88]

67. Why othes are not

doing as "well" as Whites....that's why over 50% of the UC system is Asian, BTW.

[gollygee]

69. Why do you think others aren't doing as well as white people?

If it isn't priviledge, racism, etc.?

[DistantWind88]

70. I just gave you an example

where Asians are doing BETTER than "white" people .... how do you explain that?

[gollygee]

71. I'm thinking specifically of African Americans

who suffered slavery in this country. Why aren't they doing as well if our country's history of racism isn't the cause?

I don't know what "OC system" means.

[DistantWind88]

72. UC sorry not OC

It's UC look again...And you're only concerned about Blacks???

[gollygee]

74. I didn't say "only" - edited to repeat question you didn't answer

But that's what this thread is mainly about - the particular history of African Americans regarding slavery and racism.

Why aren't they doing as well if our country's history of racism isn't the cause?

[DistantWind88]

76. So you mean

"ANYONE OTHER THAN BLACKS" privelege then?

[gollygee]

77. Nope - I mean white privilege but particularly

in regard to black people in this country who suffered slavery.

Again, why aren't they doing as well if our country's history of racism isn't the cause?

[DistantWind88]

78. You're generalizing a bit perhaps

Do you think Blacks are doing better here in the US than they are in The Sudan?

[gollygee]

80. That's not what I asked

Why aren't they doing as well as whites in this country if our country's history of racism isn't the cause?

You said they were using priviledge as an excuse - I want to know what you think the reason is.

I think that's the fourth time I asked.

[DistantWind88]

82. Who is not doing as well?

Blacks? You'd have to ask us indivdually. I seem to be doing ok.

[gollygee]

83. You don't have any idea in general then?

You said black people in this country are using racism as an excuse. Yet black people as a whole are doing significantly worse than white people as a whole in this country. So you have no ideas of what the reason *is*, only that it *isn't* racism or privilege? Is that right? If you don't know what it *is* then how can you say with any certainty at all what it is not?

[DistantWind88]

87. Where did I say that?

And where is your PROOF that "White Privilege" is the reason Blacks are "doing significantly worse than White people as a whole" in this country?

[gollygee]

97. In Post #61 you said that black people use privilege as an "excuse"

If not for white people doing better overall than black people, what are they using it as an excuse for?

I don't have the time to google to find proof. I think it's obvious if you look at economic circumstances. Do you think that black people in this country are not doing significantly worse?

[Modem Butterfly]

79. I call "bullshit"

that's why over 50% of the UC system is Asian, BTW.

Prove it.

Then, prove how this negates white privilege.

[DistantWind88]

81. Here

http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~volokh/asian.htm

And I should have said UCB the PREMIER school in the UC system.

[Modem Butterfly]

84. As I thought. Total bullshit

As the author of your citation says, Ultimately, the only way to solve any of our problems, including our racial ones, is to tell the truth. We should celebrate the fact that Asians have succeeded. We should do things to make sure that all people, regardless of their race, have a chance to succeed. But in our fight for this success, we should be scrupulously honest about what's really going on.

Now, prove how this negates white privilege.

[DistantWind88]

85. I showed

that whites who are the majority in this country are NOT the majoity ay UCB (as an example). Tell me how THAT proves "white privelege."

[Modem Butterfly]

88. Ah, but I didn't say it did

You made a bullshit assertation regarding Asians in the ENTIRE UC SYSTEM. Then, you provide an assertation that gives the lie to your assertation. I submit that neither your previous false assertaion nor your later correction have any bearing on the overall problem of white privilege.

[DistantWind88]

90. The fate remains there are MORE

Asians in the US system that Whites and even more are DENIED positions even though they have HIGHER test scores than students of other races.

[Modem Butterfly]

91. No, it doesn't

As your link shows, there are more whites than people of color at one part of the UC system. FYI, since you seem to have missed it, the percentage given in your link is for all people of color, not just Asian Americans.

As for the rest of your wild-eyed claims, well, given your track record, I'll need to see something to back that up as well.

:eyes:

[Patiod]

58. Didn't notice it til I was with a little girl of indeterminant race

We used to take care of a dark-skinned little girl who was 1/2 Polish and 1/2 Indonesian. She had long smooth shiny black hair, and when I was with her, I never noticed anyone treating her (or me) any different than they ever did.

One day before ballet class, I put her hair up in a very tight bun like the other little girls in her class.

We went out shopping later, and people were acting strangely - I couldn't put my finger on it, but I wasn't being treated like I normally am used to. Then, at our last stop at the convenience store, the black kid at the register who is usually surly to me starting trying to make her laugh. Then it hit me - he thinks she's black, and so did all the other people in the shops we visited. People didn't have the visual "clue" of the long shiny straight hair which identified her as non-black.

I didn't have any pre-conceptions, I just knew shopkeepers were treating us a little worse than normal, but had no idea why. It was clear from the way the surly kid acted - it's that they thought my "daughter" was black.

Pretty educational experience.

[tishaLA]

64. An excellent article, "Whiteness as Property"

by Cheryl Harris, who is a professor at UCLA School of Law, examines the idea of white privilege from the perspective of "privilege" as "property" (Harris "does" critical race studies, but her training is in prperty law). She says that white students who were surveyed believed they would have to be compensated millions of dollars if they lost their white skin. As Harris says in the introduction to her essay, "In ways so embedded that it is rarely apparent, the set of assumptions, privileges, and benefits that accompany the status of being white have become a valuable asset that whites sought to protect and that those who passed sought to attain - by fraud if necessary. Whites have come to expect and rely on these benefits, and over time these expectations have been affirmed, legitimated, and protected by the law. Even though the law is neither uniform nor explicit in all instances, in protecting settled expectations based on white privilege, American law has recognized a property interest in whiteness that, although unacknowledged, now forms the background against which legal disputes are framed, argued, and adjudicated."

I have the article here, but not the citation. I wish I could provide it because it is an important contribution to this discussion. I know it has appeared in the book "Crtitical Race Theory." Found it! It originally appeared in Harvard Law Review 106.

[w4rma]

66. Ethnicity is an exploitable difference in people that the folks with power

use to divide regular folks to prevent regular folks from uniting.

They promote and exploit a fear of different people.

[SoCalDem]

86. Kansas....

Click to see the "Most Wanted" pictures.. very enlightening
http://www.accesskansas.org/kbi/mw.shtml

Kansas demographics - Overall

89.8 % White
7.0 % Hispanic or Latino (any race)
6.5 % Black or African American
1.8 % American Indian and Alaska Native
2.1 % Asian
0.1 % Native Hawaiian and Other Islander
4.1 % Some other race

Kansas demographics - KBI Suspects

17.4 % White
73.9 % Hispanic or Latino (any race)
2.2 % Black or African American
0.0 % American Indian and Alaska Native
4.3 % Asian
0.0 % Native Hawaiian and Other Islander
2.2 % Some other race

Kansas demographics - KBI Victims

100.0 % White
0.0 % Hispanic or Latino (any race)
0.0 % Black or African American
0.0 % American Indian and Alaska Native
0.0 % Asian
0.0 % Native Hawaiian and Other Islander
0.0 % Some other race


Are tehre that many non-white criminals, or are they just prosecuted more?? Chicken-egg ...

There are NO non-white victims???

[deutsey]

89. Remember in "Bob Roberts" when the black guy is working for Roberts?

He has to work twice (thrice?) as hard as anyone who is white working for Roberts.

I'm white, but I've seen firsthand how black men are automatically assumed to be criminal and have to work that much harder to "prove" that they are "ok".

There is a white bias in this country, and naming a few exceptions to that rule does in no way prove that America is not a racist country.

[amazona]

92. you don't stop and think how you are taking advantage of it

...any more than you stop and think about how you take advantage of the "pretty girl discount" during those years when you are a pretty girl.

I used to drive a pimp-mobile and it was an education that more people should have. Cops would pull me over or shine lights into my eyes all the time to see if I was DWB. I never once got a ticket, and sometimes I even got apologies. I got a few "warnings" but I could tell they were made-up things...when the cop says he thought you were "weaving," that's a pretty clear sign you weren't doing anything wrong and he was just hoping to find drugs or whatever. Many were visibly embarrassed to discover that they'd stopped the wrong type of person.

Now that I have a white person's car, a Toyota, I never get stopped.

Discrimination on the roads is very, very real. I do not know what to do about it other than share my experience, which I do regularly. I do not tolerate people making claims that discrimination is all in the black or Hispanic driver's head. I know better.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Cats Against Frist]

102. Anecdotal, sure -- but here it is

It's Halloween, 2001 -- I'm driving a beat-up Peugeot, with two people in my car -- one in full-dress KISS uniform, one dressed like Axl Rose -- and I had a fruitbasket on my head. We were drinking, with open containers, and driving about 50 mph in a 30 speed limit in the White Center area of Seattle. This is a neighborhood that is mostly populated by Hispanics & Blacks. Drove by a cop, who appeared to be "trapping."

He didn't stop us. I said to my friends, "thank God for racial profiling."

I was JOKING, of course, because I am not in favor of racial profiling, but I'm pretty sure we didn't get pulled over because we were white. Unless, of course, they were just letting us off because it was Halloween.

I said it was "anecdotal." :)