Harvey Milk High's Critics Fail to See Reality of Queer Students' Lives

[roughsatori]

So many DUers criticized the opening of this school, many of the arguments against it were the same as the ones found in Freeperville. I have Friends who had to drop out in Junior High because they were spit on and beaten daily while teachers let it happen. If they had access to this school they would have been able to receive an education. This is from the Village Voice.

Harvey Milk High's Critics Fail to See the Reality of Queer Students' Lives
The School Hate Built
by Nick P. Divito

Inside, it was just like any other back-to-school day: new outfits, new bulletin boards, new faces. But outside the Harvey Milk School on Monday, along the sidewalk and spilling out onto Astor Place, a well-publicized battle waged. On one side stood Fred Phelps, the anti-gay minister who picketed Matthew Shepard's funeral, and about nine of his minions waving Bibles and chanting their infamous "God hates fags" mantra. On the other side, several hundred supporters formed a human shield to protect students entering the nation's first public high school for queer youth.

Ever since the city gave the Milk School $3.2 million to expand last June, protesters have fumed over the use of city funds. It is hard to imagine a similar protest over special funding for developmentally challenged students; yet the torment many queer students experience creates its own learning disability. LGBT kids "face a greater risk of bullying than any other students in American high schools," concludes a 2001 Human Rights Watch report. "School systems and teachers are really failing these kids," notes Widney Brown, who co-authored the report, "and the consequence is that they are not getting an education."

Arthur Larsen is entering his freshman year at SUNY Purchase. It's a long way from his situation three years ago, when he was kicked out of his house at the age of 15 for being gay. At his old high school in Manhattan, Larsen was constantly taunted—and worse. He was banned from changing clothes in the boy's locker room. "They told the teachers, 'If you let that faggot in here, we'll kill him,' " Larsen says. He was forced to change clothes in the vice principal's bathroom. "It was easier for them to let me change there than to stop those boys from beating me up."
SNIP//More: http://www. villagevoice.com/issues/0337/divito.php

[ropi]

1. Harvey Milk School

I only wish that a school like this existed when I was in secondary school. What's sad is that the idiots who do not think that their words never hurt these students have never talked to anyone who suffered the same thing that the student's in the article faced. Anyone reading this should be ashamed for ever twittering or laughing or even cracking a joke about someone's perceived sexuality. Words, like actions, do hurt more than you know. When you know the feeling of being abused, spit at, made to change your clothes in another room because another student's parent has called and has made a fuss about you being in gym class. . ., when teachers do nothing, but smile and allow the taunting continue, when the administration does nothing for you at all. . . then you'd know the pain that these students suffer. I know their pain. I endured it.

I guess some people will never learn.

[Yupster]

2. Separate But Equal

Kind of has a ring to it.

Seems weird to me that if a group is being discriminated against, they should be separated.

Seems like a segregationalists argument in the 40's. "Look, I like little Negro children. But put them in our school and they're only going to get harrassed and spit on. Now what kind of a way is that for them to get an education. Just keep them in their own school, a separate but equal school, and they'll be able to learn free from harrassment and concentrate on their studies."

Nope, I don't like it.

If the kids are being harrassed, punish the harrassers. Don't separate the victims.

[roughsatori]

3. Did you read the article?

Do you understand that they don't punish the harassers. I have seen teachers encourage the harassers. How many children will leave school before it gets under control? I am so happy they have done this for these kids.

Of course heterosexuals who have never once said a thing about the harassment of these kids are the first to scream that they should not have the protection.

[Yupster]

7. They didn't punish the Klan either

In fact, even after the Klan was discreditted and lost 80 % of its members by the 1930's, there was still a much smaller hardcore group of racists who were still protected by communities who would allow the harrasment of African-Americans and not convict these paleolithic remnants. (As an aside, this is when the ass-wipe Massa Senator Byrd joined the Klan, long after it had been discreditted and after it had lost 4/5's of its membership, mostly due to shame and revulsion).

It wasn't easy ending harrassment of AA's in the south or anywhere else, and it is certainly not ended today. It took an incredible amount of work and effort, by the federal government and the FBI, and freedom rider volunteers and even federal troops, but eventually, the segregated schools were integrated.

I'm glad they were, and to me it was well worth the effort.

I hate to see a similar situation today, and the reaction is to segregate the victims because we're not willing to put in the effort to stop the harrassers because it will be too hard or cost too much or take too long. If we could fight for the right of AA's to go to integrated schools without being harrassed, we can fight that same fight for homosexuals.

That's my late-night rant.

[sangh0]

17. Don't you see the difference

between voluntarily associating with homosexuals, and forced segregation?

Are we really that clueless?

[ropi]

5. sep but equal

Yupster writes:

"If the kids are being harrassed, punish the harrassers. Don't separate the victims".

--I wish it was that easy to do. However, you can try to have the harrassment stopped, try to have the harrassers punished, and it brings more agony to the situation. This is one space where things like you suggest do not work. Ask anyone on the DU board here who is a teacher, administrator, a student (even your own children who may see this sort of harrassment) and who may wittness this kind of behavior. I am sure they will tell you that there's nothing they can truly do. They can stop it...for a while, but it continues. The harrassers can be called out on their treatment, but the "group" (that is to say the students who harrass) will only think of another form of punishment for the GLBT student.

I can follow what you are saying with the notion that it's segregation, but I honestly wonder if it is or is not. I don't think that it's as simple as that.

I'll have to mull over what was written and add more later.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Well said

We tried this but failed.

[roughsatori]

4. When I was in secondary school I heard gym teachers say "fag"

and taunt kids. And yet people who have no idea will say: keep them in and let the teachers deal with it. The teachers in many schools give tacit approval of the bigotry and in some cases are the perpetraters.

[G_j]

6. I'm not talking about DUers

But many of the people so upset about this could care less for the lives or welfare of these students!

[REP]

8. "Separate But Equal" - Bad Idea

Yeah, let's reinforce the bigots' notions and keep the queer folk away from the normals. Great idea.

When I was a kid in grade school, I was the kid that is was okay to taunt by everybody, and the teachers stood by and did nothing. I wasn't gay; just very pretty and smart, and my gradeschool life was living hell. Surprisingly, I didn't demand a special school; I did learn however how to fight and stand up for myself.

It's not just gay kids who get bullied. Instead of brushing the problem of bad teachers and lazy parents under the rug with a special school, why not clean house of teachers and administrators who allow bullying? How about fining the parents of bullies? (Tarring and feathering the bully and the bully's parents came to mind immediately, but is probably controversial.) Why is the solution is to move the students who are different away, and do nothing about the underlying problem? Allowing bullying of any kid, gay or straight, by any school staff member should be grounds for dismissal, not an excuse to move the 'bothersome' kids away so they won't 'provoke' cruelty.

I know! Why not a special school for abusive school staff and bullies, so the staff and kids who can behave themselves aren't bothered by chickenshit?

[roughsatori]

9. You compare being your being taunted for being "pretty and smart"

to children who are being attacked for being gay. I think it is very different. But yes harassment is harassment. And in other states where they have "gay" schools there are heterosexuals who attend due to being harassed too.

I understand the points you make but I refuse to have another child's life destroyed because of our system.

Also the comparison to Black students and segregation dos not work. When the Black children went home they went home to Black parents. Most gay children go home to heterosexual parents, many of them bigoted themselves. My own father who was a life-long democrat thought that gay people should be executed. The issue is not as simple as many of you here would have it be.

[REP]

39. That's Just How I See It - I Was Actually Called "Queer"

I'm not gay, but I was called "dyke" and "queer" etc; most children are mindless thugs and will pick up the first heavy rock they find.

I'm not saying let's go destroy a child's life. I'm saying let's FIRE the staff and teachers who ignore or encourage taunting of ANY child, and send bullies off to their own special school. Put the stigma on the BULLIES, not the victims. Separate, special schools are a stigma. Abusive staff and teachers have no place in the system (or with my fucking money, thank you). Bullies are students who are either abused themselves or budding sociopaths who need intervention before they become a hazard to society. Removing them - not their victims - is the appropriate action.

Separating the gay students sends the message that there is something 'wrong' with them and they need to be ghettoized (I'm thinking of Warsaw, not the innercities). In reality, it is the bullying students - who bully anyone they perceive as weaker and different, whether that difference be gayness, poverty, appearance - who have something wrong with them. Bullies who bully as a reaction to supervisory abuse need help, and they need to be away from other students until they are able to behave and interact normally. Bullies with psychological problems needs intensive intervention to prevent them from becoming risks to society at large. Ignoring a real problem by herding off the gay students where they're out of sight and no longer a problem is just the wrong way to deal with this problem.

[jumptheshadow]

44. Question?

If opening a gay high school could help transform depressed or desperate kids into strong, well-adjusted adults, would you do it? If it would help save lives, would you do it?

[REP]

46. Wrong Question

Why are we paying for teachers and staff who do nothing to stop bullying, which effects gay and straight students? Why do we pay for schools that do nothing to stop bullying? Why aren't bullies separated and stigmatized, or at least given some sort of behavior modification treatment?

How many of these bullies are being abused at home? Why not work to stop the abuse at home and stop them from acting out at school? How many of these bullies have psychological problems that are not being addressed that will come back to haunt us all?

The answer is to not reinforce the idea that gays are so different, so egregious that they must be kept separate. To give that answer is to simply not be paying attention.

[jumptheshadow]

49. There's a couple of problems there

While you would focus only on the long-term rehabilitation of bullies there would still be gay students being victimized, to the point of physical and emotional injury. Is this fair?

And not all bullies go to school everyday or are even in the school. But they are in the school environment, one way or the other, and especially in New York.

[Character Assassin]

10. $3.2 million for 75 students? That's a pricey ghetto.

This is simply ridiculous in the disproportionate amount of money spent and in basically giving those that hate them a real target.

Wanna go beat up some queers? Those that do will know exactly where to find them.

[roughsatori]

11. Check out the spending for the High School of Performing Arts in NYC

You make the assumption that the spending is not proportionate to other schools in Manhattan. Also it is a start-up so that would factor in. If you have proof that it is disproportionate to other schools in NYC that specialize pleas post a link. I would check it out myself, but you made the assertion without any factual proof of your claim.

[Character Assassin]

12. No, you make that assumption

You make the assumption that the spending is not proportionate to other schools in Manhattan.

No, I don't. If the funding for them is also so disproportional, I object equally as much as I do in this case.

Also it is a start-up so that would factor in. If you have proof that it is disproportionate to other schools in NYC that specialize pleas post a link. I would check it out myself, but you made the assertion without any factual proof of your claim.

Glad to assist you: http://www.brooklynonline.com/bol/WINTER.BOL/school.xhtml

So the highest average in NYC is $7,770. At this little doozy of a school, however, it's a whopping $42,666.00

[roughsatori]

16. You did not compare it to the other special public schools

in Manhattan. That is an average for ALL schools in the area. I think this is a great idea for children who choose this school, but I agree that it should be done within the parameters of a budget for a similar school ie: The High School for the Performing Arts." If that is the case then I am fine with the cost. If not then the organizers should have figured out a way to provide it within average budget guidelines for specialized education.

Of course you may object only when the money is proportionality spent on gay children. Or maybe you are against all specialized education. I was in a program for "gifted" students, and my nephew receives "special education" for his developmental disability. Should those kind of programs be eradicated if they are more "pricey," then average? Or is it only gay people who should not receive the extra moolah?

[dsc]

42. These are RENOVATIONS

and presumedly will last more than one year. The high school in my district has been renovated about once every twenty years. Using that figure it seems to be a very reasonable cost.

[MassDem4Life]

14. this is not about "Queer"

students lives. btw, is that word politically correct?

So you must think it would be ok to have fat kids schools, and all white schools, and all black schools, and all straight/NO GAY schools, and all male schools, and big nosed kids schools, and big ears kids schools, right?

when do you stop segregating kids on one basis or another? And why is one type of segregation good, when another is bad?

[sangh0]

18. Here's the difference

Voluntary associations designed to protect people whose lives are in danger are OK. Forced segregation is not cool.

Is this really that hard to understand?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Segregation

With government dollars is wrong.

[sangh0]

21. So what?

We're not talking about segregation. No one is excluded from this school. They accept hetero and bi-sexual students also.

[outinforce]

27. What is the policy of Harvey Milk School --

What is Harvey Milk's policy regarding heterosexual students who abuse or bully gay kids?

[sangh0]

28. None

Their policy refers to anyone, regardless of their sexuality, who abuse other students, regardless of their sexuality.

[outinforce]

32. None?? Really!?

Perhaps I did not state my question as accurately as I might have liked.

You said that anyone -- regardless of her/his sexual orientation -- was free to attend the Harvey Milk School.

This is also true of any school in the NYC Public School system. Any student -- regardless of her/his sexual orientation is eligible to attend.

You now tell us that the policy of the Harvey Milk School regarding bullying, humiliating, and intimidating refers to anyone, regardless of her/his sexual orientation.

So here's my question:

How does the policy of the Harvey Milk School regarding bullying/intimidating/humiliating differ, if at all, from the policy regarding bullying/intimidating/humiliating in other NYC Public Schools?

[sangh0]

33. AFAIK

the only difference is that the Harvey Milk School will enforce it, while most public schools have a history of dismissing that activity with a "boys will be boys"

[outinforce]

36. Why, then, would it not make more sense

In response to my question, "How does the policy of the Harvey Milk School regarding bullying/intimidating/humiliating differ, if at all, from the policy regarding bullying/intimidating/humiliating in other NYC Public Schools?", you offered this:

"AFAIK, the only difference is that the Harvey Milk School will enforce it, while most public schools have a history of dismissing that activity with a "boys will be boys""

Doesn't it seem to you as though it would have been better to spend $3.2 million training the principals, teachers, administrators, and others in the NYC School system to un-learn the "boys will be boys" mentality, and to show them how to enforce the policies of the NYC School system, instead of using that money to support a school that segregates gay students into their own little self-imposed ghetto?

[MassDem4Life]

30. excuse me

that is only so that they have a patina of inclusiveness.

The school is being set up as a haven for gays. to get them away from straights.

And you say "well they accept straights too"

If that were truly the case then there would be no need for this experiment.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

25. "Voluntary Associations"

"Voluntary associations designed to protect people whose lives are in danger are OK."

What about voluntary associations designed to protect people whose property is in danger?

Are they OK?

Suppose in some large city, a group of queer men decided that it would be good to have a whole neighborhood where property values would be enhanced because queers -- and really, only "fabulous, A-list queers -- lived. Could they "voluntarily" associate themselvs in order to protect the value of their propery, and exclude breeders (a term, which, by the way, I despise), and nonm-fabulous, non-A-list queers?

[sangh0]

26. No

Protecting property is a police function.

And protecting market values is not any sort of governmental function

[MassDem4Life]

29. no that is not what is happenning

in this case, they are spending 3 times what they spend on the rest of the students to set up a solely gay school. They are creating the segregation.

So my question stands; what is wrong with setting up all those other schools?

And why has the Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to segregate blacks, yet you seem to think it is great to segregate gays.

If this were a private school just for gays, that would be fine, that is their business decision to set it up that way,
BUT NOT AS A PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

Instead try enforcing a little discipline to punish those that are persecuting the gays.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roughsatori]

19. Queer is a word used by more politically aware GLBT people

as a way of uniting under one word. It is similar to when Blacks started calling themselves "black," instead of "Negro," or later some started using "African-Americans," instead of "Black." And when they did so Whites many times did not like it.

Members of dominant cultural groups don't like it when minorities start defining themselves. White heterosexual Americans seem to think in many cases that it is their job to define everyone else. So are threatened when language changes. Some liberals will attempt to use the tropes of civil-rights movement to keep gays in their place--just the way Whites used the Bible to keep Blacks in their place.

[outinforce]

24. Let me correct myself

In another post to this thread, I said that I was a gay guy.

That is soooooo retro.

I am, instead, a Disgusting Queer Faggot Cornholing C-cks-cker.

Am I politically correct enough here??

[MassDem4Life]

31. BullS**t

the difference is that when White heteros call gays "Queer" it is a slur, but it is alright for them to call themselves that. it is another case of what is wrong for one, being right for someone else.

The only problem is that you cant legislate that way

[TheYellowDog]

37. Way to generalize there.

"White heterosexual Americans seem to think in many cases that it is their job to define everyone else."

Nice generalization. Don't you have some more Marx reading to do?

[Cheswick2.0]

41. what does Marxism have to do with it?

What does marxism have to do with anything the poster posted?

You might be outing yourself as a FOF, you should be more careful.

[MassDem4Life]

15. also

if they are spending $32,000 per kid in that school, they have to spend $32,000 per kid in every other school in the district.

[outinforce]

22. I'm a Gay Guy

And I note with interest that despite the taunts, the threats, the humiliation that Arthur Larsen had to endure (the poor dear was not permitted to change clothes with the rest of the boys), he is entering his freshman year at SUNY Purchase.

And I also note with interest that NYC is spendig $3.2 million on Harvey Milk School -- a school, which, if my memory serves me correctly, has an enrollment of 75 kids.

Surely there are children in the Bronx, or in Brooklyn who have no hope of ever going to college -- even to SUNY Purchase. Surelyif kids like Arthur Larsen are tough enough to put up with the indignities of school life and still get into college, that $3.2 million could be better spent educating the kids of the Bronx who, even though they are not gay, currently have no hope of college.

I don't live in NYC, but if I did, I'd sure resent my tax money going to help kids who suffer indignities (but who are nevertheless able to get into college) while kids who don't suffer indignities are denied hope of college educations.

[sangh0]

23. Thank you for raising a real issue.

I'd respond with more detail, but the first time in a while, a DUer has raised a truly interesting point.

Thank you

[MrPrax]

38. Separate schools Separate funding?

May freedom ring...

[jumptheshadow]

40. All right, I am ready for the beating

These are my reasons why the Harvey Milk school makes sense at this particular point in history:

Unlike other minorities, many gay teenagers have no support at home for being who they are. In fact, many of them are abused by their parents because of their orientation, and for the way they express their orientation. This leads to: 1) High suicide rates among gay teens, and, 2) A higher degree of homelessness among gay teens. The Harvey Milk school -- which, by the way, has been a successful school for a while -- has served many suicidal and homeless teens for years. These are kids who would drown in most schools.

From what I've read and heard, the Harvey Milk school uses an affirmative school environment, positive adult role models and a combination of specifically targeted supportive social services to strengthen the often fragile psyches of some of its students. It also helps to stabilize the desperate living circumstances of those who are homeless or who face abuse at home.

To me, this is a common sense use of tax dollars. Target them to a specific problem. We could spend the same money in our social service system if this school didn't exist, but without the specific focus that will actually help the kid.

New York is just not like other cities. Speaking bluntly, in some of the city's schools there is a possibility that harassment will lead to violence. And if a kid tells administrators about it, it inflames the situation more. It makes them more of a target outside the school and more of a pariah inside of it. You are trying to save lives here.

Yes, these kids need to live in an integrated world. They have a better chance at being healthy adults if they get the help and support they need while they are teenagers.

When they graduate from Harvey Milk, they will have good academic credentials and a ready-made network to tap into as they make their adjustment to life after high school.

[REP]

47. I Don't Get It

At least twice in this thread the comment has been made that gay students don't have support at home. Presumably, these parents will know that their kid is going to the gay school. How does this improve the homelife of the gay student?

[jumptheshadow]

48. Thinking this through

The kids at Harvey Milk need the signature of a parent or guardian to get into the school. I know of at least one past or present manager in that organization whose background is in foster care. NY is a magnet for displaced gay kids, from the city and out-of-town. I know that there have been organizations that have provided specialized services for these kids.

The kids, I'm sure, will come from a variety of environments. There will be some who have supportive parents who have weighed their child's options and believe they will be safer or will develop into better adjusted, more productive or happier adults if they attend a gay high school. There are probably parents who are disdainful or even downright abusive who will sign off on a permission form for any number of reasons.

Supportive teachers can work wonders as role models for kids. Ask any kid who lost their parents, either physically or emotionally, and got guidance from their teachers that provided an infrastructure for their adult years.

Consider as well the following situations:

* The 16-year-old with HIV who will get specialized attention at the school.
* The kids who are questioning their gender. They face one of the most challenging experiences life can offer. Again, a safe, supportive environment with specialized teachers and staff can make all the difference here.
* The ultrasensitive kid who faces a much better adjusted adulthood if his or her confidence is strengthened in high school. This is a kid who might drop out of school if he or she didn't have Harvey Milk.
* The well-adjusted gay kid who will thrive academically in a creative, supportive environment because he or she likes it at the school.

[dsc]

43. Several things

First, this $3.2 million figure refers to a renovations which will presumedly last several years. My district is building new buildings as I type that doesn't mean that our per pupil funding has gone up by a factor of 15 to 20.

Second, This school is very necessary. Virtually every gay and lesbian student can tell stories of petty harassment. For me it was being made to eat alone for close to a year. That and a few physical altercations made middle school terrible for me. Like many in my situtation I was terrified to tell my parents and thus just had to take it. I was fortunate that it wasn't worse than it was. Many are literally beaten down to nothing. Not every place can have such a school but NYC is large enough and should.

[jumptheshadow]

45. New York, New York

You are absolutely right, the number of gay kids in high school here is higher than the population of many towns. The psychosocial environment is more complex and the danger level here is higher than in many towns. Many of our gay kids won't want or need to attend Harvey Milk. But there is certainly justification for this school based on the neediest kids alone.

And that's not counting the kids who will thrive in an environment where a teenage crush is not considered weird or sinful and where you can bring the person you really like to the prom.

[Breezy du Nord]

50. Why should the students being abused have to move?

Shouldn't the people who are abusing be separtated? :shrug: